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Author: Subject: It's been a long time, but the winds have changed!
IndestructibleYoungMan


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[*] posted on 5-14-2020 at 09:31 PM
It's been a long time, but the winds have changed!


Hello everyone!

Update

It has been a long time, nearly 3 years to be exact!

A lot has changed since I ve last posted. I am still young, but I feel a slight bit older and less indestructible these days. I m married now, and have a little girl on the way.

I wanted to take a second and thank you all again for the welcome I received and expert advise given when I entered into the power kiting community.

Your guidance - Windstruck, Bladerunner, Flyguy0101 Beamerbob, Blitzhound, Jimbocz and Jimssi and everyone else who helped - kept me from injuring myself. Specifically, some of you recommended learning to fly blind. That single piece of advice proved to be absolutely invaluable on an ATB.

You all U2Ud me tips, sold me your gear, welcomed me at JIBE 2017, and even let me fly one of your kites. I ve been truly touched by your kindness and wisdom. THANK YOU!

Begin Topic

I ve been kiting on and off for the last few years, and in that time I ve learned a few things -

1. ATBs will roll only on tide-out hard pack sand, no amount of good wishes will change this fact lol.

2. In order to get rolling I have to steer my board right into the powerzone and build apparent wind, which requires a lot of beach.

3. 3.1m FB Open Cell Kites fricken suck and I hate them.

Sometimes I ll be flying my Prism Tensor and it will luff, puff, and fall out of the sky. As it falls, it suddenly channels the power of purebred mustang and charges back to life. It doesnt matter which direction my wheels are pointed, I follow that kite. The kite also requires constant steering or else it will overfly, fall out of the sky, and I m riding the horse again. When parked at the apex of the window, it will nearly loft all of my 180lbs straight off of the ground at random. My hands get exhausted hanging onto the handles for dear life.

Long story long, I am tired of being a slave to this kite, the tide, drunken beachgoers, and anything else that gets in the way of having a safe fun time.

I want to get into the world of kite surfing. I live in FL where I have consistent 10, 15, 20 mph winds and easy access to flat or wavy water.

Question

My question for you gentlemen is this - what are a few Closed Cell Depower Kites that you would recommend I look into further? It seems that a fast turning kite with a lot of Pop will be most desirable when I m on the water. I am aware that most of you all arent surfing, but I know you will have useful insight into this.

At this stage I am just soaking in as much information as possible. For the past month or so I have been doing a ton of reading and brushing up on my knowledge of equipment, best practices, and kite brands. I am pretty overwhelmed and not really sure where to go next.

Originally I had my sights set on a used Peter Lynn Venom II 15m or something similar. You can read my old post about it here. But after doing some reading I am feeling that the technology has since advanced enough that I d have an easier time transitioning to water with a more modern - but most certainly used - kite.

FYI I am fully aware that kitesurfing with LEIs is most popular, but I have almost no interest in using an LEI or interacting with the conventional kitesurfing crowd. The extra gear, style, lack of long term durability, and general vibe of the culture are undesirable to me. I cut my teeth in kiting right here and here I d like to stay.

Thanks in advance for any help, its fun jumping into the forum again.

I appreciate you guys and hope you have been safe!





"They will soar on wings like eagles..." Isaiah 40:31 NIV

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Randy


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[*] posted on 5-15-2020 at 11:19 AM


Hey IYM, nice to hear from you, and glad you are doing well. Congrats on your growing family. I'm afraid this board is populated by mainly land kiters so please don't feel ignored. Most of us just don't really know enough to comment on your request. I'm sure some will pop up though. Here are a few videos about foil kites. This channel seems to do a good job on research and has a lot of videos dealing with foil kites that may help answer your questions. There are several others. They seem to have some about the Flysurfer Soul that might be of interest. (Not sure if there is a commercial tie in there.)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdvSTIU8M1o

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wL5TLFq2bD4

Ikitesurf does have classifieds so take a look there for used gear.

http://c.ikitesurf.com/classifieds





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Windstruck


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[*] posted on 5-15-2020 at 03:21 PM


Great to see you resurface IYM and congratulations on the new family. I personally don't have any direct experience with the water aspects of our wind hobbies. Good that you are looking at kit that isn't too old. Some of the older water kits could get you into some pretty tough situations which is why designers went beyond their earlier generation products.

There are certainly folks on this site that cross into water, something I hope to do as well some day.

BTW, a lot of folks that use ATBs and skates really prefer DP kites that allow you to throttle off the power during gusts. As you've (no doubt painfully) discovered, a 3.1m Tensor is pretty much a terrible gust muncher, particularly when standing on a board.




Born-Kites:
RaceStar+ (3.0m, 5.0m, 7.0m, 9.0m 14.0m)
RaceStar (9.0m, 11.0m)
NasaStar-4 (2.5m, 4.0m, 5.5m, 7.0m)
NasaStar-3 (custom 3.2m)

Flysurfer Kites:
Peak-5 (2.5m)

Buggy:
Peter Lynn BigFoot+ nose & tail; midsection VTT rail & seat kit; home-brewed AQR

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manitoulinkiter1




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[*] posted on 5-16-2020 at 07:47 AM


Hi Man

I ride water and snow, unfortunately no where to buggy around here. I've kited on water with closed cell foils as well as LEIs. They both have their own pro's and cons.
I tried kiting with a Blade 3 6.6 meter ( I believe, not 100% sure of the size was a long time ago). I saw a video of a guy using on youtube. You have to be pro level to use an open cell foil. If it hits the water you are done. Imagine trying to pull a garbage bag of water while swimming!! So like I said I tried once, it would be very dangerous if you were in water over your head and crashed not to mention the huge mess when you get to shore.
That was my only experience with fixed bridle kites on water, I still use them on snow a bit.
Any other kite I used on water whether foil or LEI was a depower. I'm not sure what gear you want to avoid buying but if you go depower you will need a harness.
PL kites work well. I don't use them but I kite with a guy who does use them. Biggest draw back I see is they produce a bit less power than other kites so he is using a bit bigger kite than the rest of us. Not that big of a deal unless you want to do loops and things.
I used Flysurfer Pulse 2s on water. They worked well but I have ran into trouble in waves if the kite didn't relaunch right away. Once a wave crests over the kite and drags it into the water it may twist or some cells fill with water and relaunch may not be possible. I haven't used anything newer than Pulse 2s so I'm not sure how far the newer kites have come.
I know you don't want to use LEIs but because they float they will relaunch far easier than the Pulse's I had did. The PLs have a tendency to auto zenith and Rob is a bit older so he doesn't drop them much when he falls so I can't comment on them in waves.
I would also recommend trying a LEI simply for the fact that I find they absorb gusts better than the Flysurfers and you may be able to advance a bit quicker.
It's gusty where I ride and I found the Flysurfers would occasionally slightly collapse in a lull and then kind of "pop" when a gust hit. The lull would point me upwind a bit, edging harder and then the "pop" would pull me off my edge and the kite would then lull again sort of creating a cycle that eventually yanked me into the water. This was controllable by changing how hard you had to edge against the kite you just have to be a little more aware of the kite while riding.
The biggest reasons I eventually went to the LEIs was availability, simply a lot more around for kitesurfing and cost. I'm in Canada and a new Flysurfer with a bar was over 3000.00. I buy my kites a year or two old and could get two or three LEIs for that price. I also found they last as long as the Foil kites do but I've been kiting on water for around 12 years and don't crash the kite hard very often. My favorite kite is a 2013 North Fuze and I still use it. I only get out around 40 times a year though and may only use a specific kite size 10 times a year.

Hope this makes sense to you.
Jon
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IndestructibleYoungMan


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[*] posted on 5-17-2020 at 08:42 AM


Thanks for the responses guys! I appreciate everyone chiming and sharing what they know and not pretending to know more than they do about kiting on water, lol.

Randy, thanks for the videos, those are good resources! I already learned some stuff I didn't know. Windstruck, I agree 100% - depower is the way to go for riding on a board. I am really tired of my FB Foil, that kite is flying me instead me flying the kite. Jon, thanks for the valuable insight - I am taking everything you are saying very seriously. I cant even pretend to argue with 12 years of water-kiting experience. :o I agree, kiting with an open cell FB kite on water is basically asking to experience drowning. If I buy a foil, it would have to be closed cell depower.

It's great to hear your experience with closed cell foils in the water. It's disappointing the "gust cycle" you described. The beaches I fly at, the wind is pretty smooth, so I wonder how that would affect flying compared to your location? I also have access to flat water, which I imagine would help with water relaunches and learning in general.

Watching videos and seeing them in the air, I guess I am lovestruck with foil kites and kind of biased. They are unique, beautiful, and rarer to see in the air, which is kind of my style. Maybe this scenario is like when I bought my first car - my parents advised against my little 2,400 lb Celica, but I bought it anyway, drove it for 7 years and still have it today with over 220,000 miles on it. However, I hate little cars now :)

I don't want to be dumb and buy a CC foil over an LEI just because, but maybe it's something I just need to try? Maybe I'll love it, maybe I'll hate it, but at least I gave it a shot. My biggest concern is what you mentioned about the "gust cycle". I already know that pain with my current kite and ATB setup and don't want to be dealing with that on the water.

In the first video that Randy posted, the lady mentioned that a kites ability to handle gusts has more to do with its shape than whether it is LEI or Foil. Apparently, lower aspect ratio and more prominent "C" shape are what allow a kite to better handle gusts. Is that logic sound? If so I may have discovered a CC foil that fits the bill. Aspect ratio is only a few 0.1 points greater than PL Charger and the kite has semi-prominent C-shape. You can view it by here..

I'd love to hear everybody's thoughts. Thanks again guys for your willingness to offer advice and help steer a newbie from making a mistake.




"They will soar on wings like eagles..." Isaiah 40:31 NIV

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Trampa 15 degree short kiteboard
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jeffnyc




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[*] posted on 5-17-2020 at 08:42 PM


Huya IYM - I did exactly what you're doing... started landboarding with FB with an eye to getting on the water. FB are great, but better choice for land board are depower. My faovorites are Phantom 1's right now, but I also really love FS speeds. For water I wouldn't suggest an arc as a beginner kite... there are much better alternatives these days. The slow power build up I love about my phantoms on land is not a great feature for a beginner on water. I love my FS speeds for water (18m + 12m Speed 5) and use them most of the time, but there is nothing wrong with LEI if you get the right ones for your conditions. You can get them way cheaper, as a beginner they take way more abuse, and they float. It really depends on what you want to do. Do you want to cruise around, self launch/land, buttery floaty jumps? Probably foil. Do you want to do tons of tricks and spazz around? LEI. Surf in waves (I don't know where in Fla. you are) probably LEI. Deal for hours with horrible bridle tangles - definitely foil :D

Really, my biggest suggestion would be to take some lessons. You get to beat the crap out of someone else's kite while you learn. Whatever you think you know about kiting on land with FB doesn't completely translate to water, and you WILL crash your kite. Plus there are a lot of safety issues you need to be aware of, for yourself and others around you. Take that all seriously.

There's no cheap way to do this... you need to get a decent harness, vest, kite(s), bar/lines and board. You're preoccupied with the kites right now, but a good beginner board (something wide and not too much rocker) will be just as important. Florida is pretty light in the summer - you might even want something like a lightwave wing or a door.

Feel free to ask me anything you want about my experience getting on water. I definitely took the long route, but I wanted to try everything I could, and love every aspect of it (land board, snow, water).




Foil: Speed5 18+12 | Speed3 15 | Sonic2 9m | Peak 5 4m
Arc: Phantom I 12m+18m
LEI: LF WOW 9m
FB: Flux 5m | Bullet 4.5 | Blurr 3.5 + 2.5 | Rage 2.5 | Beamer 1.8
Ride: Flexi Haize | MBS core 90 | SS Vision 140 | Mako 140 + King 165 | King Gee | SS Hover Glide | WB 5'6" | Burton Floater
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Bladerunner


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[*] posted on 5-17-2020 at 09:11 PM


Welcome back. Unless you have a friend to teach a lesson or 2 will be worth the cost. Even on a budget.

You can buy a used and not too old LEI and harness for about the cost of 1 lesson. Using online instruction and your background you can self teach body dragging + generally dealing with an LEI relaunching, self rescue, etc.. that covers most of lesson 1. Other than Mariners rules and a few safety things.

With the right prep going in you could hope to be taught board starts ( and safety stuff ) in the 1st lesson. 3rd lesson focuses on staying upwind etc. Stuff that you may pick up on easy?

You will crash your kite A LOT learning. Closed cell coils are a true pain. Hard to relaunch at best. EASY to scoop water and ruin things. They are a great option but will suck up valuable fly time. Newer LEI kites relaunch 100 times better.

So....

Step 1. Get a cheapish LEI a harness and master body dragging. Money well spent!








Kites: 2.5m Profoil , Quadrifoil XL kitesurfer, NPW 5 Danger.
Flexifoil: 1.7m Sting, 4.9m Blade 3, 9m Blade 2.
Flysurfer : 19m Speed 2 SA, 7m Pulse
Peter Lynn :18m Phantom, 15m Synergy, 10m Synergy, 1200 Farc, 460 Sarc, 130 Tarc, 5m Peel, 4.2m , 6.4, 8.5 C-Quads, 3.5 LS2 single skin.

Rides: Flexi / P.L. Frankin'Buggy , Shaped + straight skiis, sand skis, Coyote blades. Core 95 ATB. RKB R2 ATB .

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Steve in Gypsum


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[*] posted on 5-17-2020 at 10:13 PM


I've been kiting for about 12 years, both on water and snow. I use both LEI and foil kites, too many brands and models to have kept track of over the years. I'm currently using Liquid Force and Ocean Rodeo LEI kites and Flysurfer, Ozone and Kitech foil kites. I use both LEI and foil kites on the water and pretty much only foil kites on snow. My most important piece of advice is to take some lessons. Water kiting is a lot different than land kiting. The money you spend on lessons will be well worth the price. My second piece of advice is to start with LEI kites for kiting on water. You will crash your kites a lot while learning to water kite and if you're using foil kites while you learn on water, you'll be turning them into sea anchors, which is a royal PITA when you try to drag them to shore. Besides the PITA factor, you'll run a good chance of damaging the interior cells from dragging them to shore with a hundred pounds of water inside them. Hands down, LEI kites are the easiest to learn to water kite with. Once you get to be a decent water kiter, you can go back to foil kites if you still want to, because you won't be crashing your kites so often then and you'll be better at relaunching them, which means you'll usually be able to relaunch a closed cell foil kite quickly before it starts filling with water and turning into a sea anchor. LEI and foil kites both have their pluses and minuses, but most definitely learn to water kite first with LEI kites. Good luck. You won't regret learning how to water kite.
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IndestructibleYoungMan


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[*] posted on 5-18-2020 at 07:15 PM


The jury has spoken... I'll get an LEI.

LEI's are so ugly to me, spars everywhere, looking like a injured bat on the sand. The big black rubber leading edge seems like something that belongs in a lazy river vs. something in the sky. The only time I wanted to use a bike pump was for my future daughter's princess bicycle...

That said... I'll get one. Just needed to get that out of my system lol. I cannot deny the logic and so many responses recommending LEI. My entire time kiting I've never really looked into them, so once more into the breach I go to learn which product, manufacturer, and size I should get.

For a foil I was thinking 13m given my conditions and body weight (10 - 15 mph smooth winds with the occasional 20 mph, 180 lbs), but for an LEI I'm not totally sure. I'll probably be able to answer that question myself with some research.

Boards and size are still largely a mystery to me, especially why they are so expensive. $300 + used? I got a Trampa ATB with spare parts for $175. Maybe that'll become clear as I read a little further.

Once I get set up (Lord willing that will be well before the end of the year), if anybody in FL wants to try their hand at teaching someone how to kite board, just let me know. But, maybe I am just being cheap again and professional lessons are the way to go.

Thanks guys for jumping and offering so much help. I'm sure I'll have some more questions before long.




"They will soar on wings like eagles..." Isaiah 40:31 NIV

Quiver:

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Trampa 15 degree short kiteboard
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Steve in Gypsum


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[*] posted on 5-18-2020 at 08:15 PM


Most LEI kites that I've used have the same amount of power as a foil kite 2m smaller, so if you were thinking about a 13m foil kite, you'd need about a 15m LEI kite. I weigh 190 lbs. and I normally use a 14m LEI or 12m foil kite for 10-15 mph winds. If I was only going to buy one LEI kite, I'd probably buy a 12m, but the best thing you can do is watch what the kiters at your local spot are using most of the time in your usual conditions and then go with that size for your first LEI kite. Most, if not all, kite manufacturers make great kites these days. Your best bet for learning is a freeride or wave kite. Stay away from freestyle kites as they're more difficult to learn on and the only reason you'd need one is if you plan on doing lots of freestyle moves and wearing boots instead of straps. Also, the size of board makes a huge difference on water. A bigger, wider board is quicker than switching to a bigger kite when the wind drops. I usually use a 137 cm board but have smaller and bigger boards for changing conditions. Have fun and stay safe. Good luck.
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