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Author: Subject: Arc Differences? PL Venom, Synergy, Charger I
IndestructibleYoungMan


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[*] posted on 5-22-2017 at 12:15 PM
Arc Differences? PL Venom, Synergy, Charger I



Hey everybody, I'm looking for some help to figure out the differences between these three PL kites.

Venom II 13m
Synergy 15m
Charger I 15m

I am determining which I want for my first depower (looks like SSI_Stefan and I are in the same boat!). I have seen all of three kites sell for pretty cheap ($250-$400), which is my budget right now.

Right now I am leaning towards the Synergy 15m. I want something I can eventually learn to jump with and grow into. Recently however I've seen some arguments that the Venom II 13m and Synergy 15m have the same projected-area? :puzzled: Also, I've noticed that it seems like the Charger I has virtually no following... not a good choice?

The reason I want a 15m is for more lift in lighter/moderate winds. (My beach's conditions are pretty steady around 10-15 mph, occasionally we'll have a +20 mph which is a blast!) I weigh about 180, and I don't want to be trapped doing jumps like this forever. (that is not me in the video)

Thoughts and suggestions would be greatly appreciated!




"They will soar on wings like eagles..." Isaiah 40:31 NIV

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Feyd


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[*] posted on 5-22-2017 at 01:24 PM


In a nutshell. Venom 2, revised version of original Venom 1 with modifications that were used on the first series now factory spec. on the Venom 2.

Synergy, first kite designed by Pepijn Smit for Peter Lynn. Flies very much like the current Charger 2. Forgiving and fun with higher turn rate and better depower than the Venom 2. 15m Syn is roughly equal to 13m Venom 2 in terms of power.

Charger 1. A huge step forward in Arc performance and tech. A Synergy on crack. Pepijn's response to the demand for an Arc that handles more like an LEI in terms of turn rate and lift. Not at all like the previous Arcs and not for beginners. Not a lot of Charger 1 owners as they either had bad kites and got away from them or had bad experiences due to the nature of the Charger and got away from them. They can be tamed to some extent but you are better off with a Venom or Syn.

The aggressive nature of the Charger turned off a lot of long time fans of Arcs who liked them for their easy going nature. The Charger further alienated Arc fans as it suffered from a series of construction issues that made the kite at best, unusable and at worst, flat out dangerous. There are fixes and if you have a Charger that is unaffected, and you like an aggressive kite, the Charger 1 is awesome. But not the kite to learn arcs on.

None of the above are light wind kites. 15m is going to pull like a 9m Bridled foil. Getting the best performance is going to rely on having a good bar match. Long throw is your friend, FLS is key. You can work the heck out of them to get around in lightish winds but they are nowhere near anything considered lightwind. Especially by today's standards.






Chris Krug-Owner @ Hardwater Kiting. Authorized Dealer of Ozone, HQ and Flysurfer kites.
www.hardwaterkiter.com 518-407-KITE
www.eastsidebikeguides.com
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Demoknight


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[*] posted on 5-22-2017 at 02:48 PM


I would recommend a Flysurfer Peak as a first depower long before I would recommend any Arc. I have a Charger 2, and while it is one of the best kites I have ever flown, it was a rough first depower. The Arcs are amazing once you get them in the air, but the ground handling is a complete bastard if you are new to them. Your first few times launching, you will probably taco and tumble, or straight up bowtie, or some other flavor of frustration. It took me probably ten sessions to learn the easiest way to launch and land an Arc, and now I can make it look easy. If you have your heart set on getting one as your first depower, then more power to you brother. It was my first, but if I could do it all over again, I would have started with basically any other depower foil. I do have extreme respect for the kite now, and we are inseparable. If the winds are too high to hold down my 19m Speed 3, I pull the 12m Charger 2 out.



NAPKA US8008

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Flysurfer Speed 3 Deluxe 19m
Peter Lynn Charger 2 12m
Peter Lynn 2013 Reactor 5.5m
Peter Lynn 2013 Reactor 8.6m
Prism Tensor 5.0m

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Bladerunner


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[*] posted on 5-22-2017 at 07:36 PM


I keep hearing Peaks being mentioned when the topic is about intro depowers for the $250 - $400 range. When they become that cheap I am likely to become a customer. Is a Peak REALLY a good kite for an ATB pilot to learn to jump with?

One thing that wasn't pointed out. The Synergy has a VPC bridle that makes a noticeable difference. I owned a set of Charger 1's and traded back to my Synergies. Just too aggressive for my style. Making it a less than ideal beginner depower.

It is true that ground handling is a learned skill with arcs but I personally feel the pay off is there once they are in the air. + you only have to launch them once a day. Auto zenith for breaks and all. If you are after these kites you are looking to save money and must accept some trade offs. I think learning to ground handle arcs is worth the saving.




Kites: 2.5m Profoil , 4.9m QuadrifoilXL kitesurfer, 9m Flexi Blade II, NPW 5 Danger.
Flysurfer : 19m Speed 2 SA, 7m Pulse
Peter Lynn :18m Phantom, 15m Synergy, 10m Synergy, 1200 Farc, 460 Sarc, 130 Tarc, 5m Peel, 4.2m , 6.4, 8.5 C-Quads

Rides: Flexi / P.L. Frankin'Buggy , Shaped + straight skiis, sand skis, Coyote blades. Core 95 ATB. RKB R2 ATB .

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ssayre




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[*] posted on 5-22-2017 at 07:55 PM


Quote: Originally posted by Bladerunner  
I keep hearing Peaks being mentioned when the topic is about intro depowers for the $250 - $400 range. When they become that cheap I am likely to become a customer. Is a Peak REALLY a good kite for an ATB pilot to learn to jump with?

One thing that wasn't pointed out. The Synergy has a VPC bridle that makes a noticeable difference. I owned a set of Charger 1's and traded back to my Synergies. Just too aggressive for my style. Making it a less than ideal beginner depower.

It is true that ground handling is a learned skill with arcs but I personally feel the pay off is there once they are in the air. + you only have to launch them once a day. Auto zenith for breaks and all. If you are after these kites you are looking to save money and must accept some trade offs. I think learning to ground handle arcs is worth the saving.


Having owned both I couldn't agree more. And that's coming from a huge peak fan.
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soliver


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[*] posted on 5-22-2017 at 08:08 PM


Quote: Originally posted by Bladerunner  
I keep hearing Peaks being mentioned when the topic is about intro depowers for the $250 - $400 range. When they become that cheap I am likely to become a customer. Is a Peak REALLY a good kite for an ATB pilot to learn to jump with?


I'll comment here as being both a Peak owner and new to depow:

You are right that Peaks don't fit into that budget, but they are not far off. I have seen a lot of 6m Peak 1's in the $500 range which isn't too far off, so it may be only a matter of time before it would fit in that price range. I may be the lucky one but I bought my 12m Peak 2 in the $500 range myself... but if you take a second to focus on the "first depower" aspect of the topic at hand, then I am pretty sure the Peak is one of the best candidates. It is incredibly user friendly, launches ridiculously easy, is really stable and depowers to practically nothing, (this is why I think you keep hearing about Peaks in this context, as a good "first depow") ...sure no auto zenith, but it's so easy to handle it practically flies itself.

Not to mention the wind ranges: I can effectively use my 6m on the hardpacked beach in wind as low as 10mph (I only had the 12m out for about 45 minutes during all of JIBE)... at home, I fly the 12m for anything under 12mph and the 6m for anything over 12mph. I effectively reduced a quiver of 5 kites to a quiver of 2.

As for jumping, you are right, I don't think they are great for that... like any kite, they can get you airborn if you REALLY want them to, but they are intended for cruising and touring... not so much for airtime... Feyd could answer to that best.

Also, I am learning that Peaks too are a little squirrelly on the ground, but that is easily remedied with weight on the training edge... but like an arc, they are so easy to keep in the air that they spend very little time on the ground outside of unpacking and packing them.

Sorry to hijack ... not my intention, but cost wise, even for the slightly higher budget, you get an incredible bang for your buck with a Peak that is a GREAT first Depow IMHO.




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WackyWindsurfer


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[*] posted on 5-23-2017 at 02:00 AM


I agree with most posts above and hope to help you choose.
Owning all kites except the PL Charger, here are my 2 cts:

Venom II 13m - worst in ground handling/launching, slowest turning in the air, jumping ok
Synergy 15m - better in ground handling/launching, good turning due to VPC, great for jumping
Peak II 12m - best in ground handling/launching, good turning for the size, best for light wind, worst for jumping

Having summed that up, for my conditions (comparable to yours), I prefer my Synergy's 15m (and 12m when the wind is above 20 knots) over all other kites I own. I only go to my Peak II 12m when there is less then 10-12 knots of wind, for handling reasons. As mentioned in posts above, ARC's are not light wind kites.

Making sure there is enough air (-pressure) in your Twinskin ARC, which is key for the best launch. There are a lot of helpful videos to be found about ground handling on Youtube. It is not that hard to learn and master, although the single skin kites are easier in that regard.

Learning depower with an ARC, coming from 4 line power kites, was not as hard as I thought. Their forgiving and gentle nature are best in that regard. You can spank them later on, when you are ready to!
;-)

While jumping with a Peak is possible (with experience), learning to jump with them is hardly. I learned depower, ground handling and started jumping on my Venom II's and came across a good deal on my 15m Synergy a little later and never looked back.
Mind that I only fly and jump static as riding a board or buggy is not allowed on my beach. Jumping the ARC's is as much fun as I need anyways...




PL: Vibe II 1.9m | Twister IIr 4.1m
PL Twinskin: Guerilla II 15m | Venom II 10m & 13m| Scorpion 10m | Synergy 10m, 12m & 15m
Ozone: Ignition 2.5m | Flow 2m & 3m
Born NASA Star 2: 1.5m | 2.5m | 4m | 5.5m | 7m
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WackyWindsurfer


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[*] posted on 5-23-2017 at 02:28 AM


I agree with most posts above and hope to help you choose.
Owning all kites except the PL Charger, here are my 2 cts:

Venom II 13m - worst in ground handling/launching, slowest turning in the air, jumping ok
Synergy 15m - better in ground handling/launching, good turning due to VPC, great for jumping
Peak II 12m - best in ground handling/launching, good turning for the size, best for light wind, worst for jumping

Having summed that up, for my conditions (comparable to yours), I prefer my Synergy's 15m (and 12m when the wind is above 20 knots) over all other kites I own. I only go to my Peak II 12m when there is less then 10-12 knots of wind, for handling reasons. As mentioned in posts above, ARC's are not light wind kites.

Making sure there is enough air (-pressure) in your Twinskin ARC, which is key for the best launch. There are a lot of helpful videos to be found about ground handling on Youtube. It is not that hard to learn and master, although the single skin kites are easier in that regard.

Learning depower with an ARC, coming from 4 line power kites, was not as hard as I thought. Their forgiving and gentle nature are best in that regard. You can spank them later on, when you are ready to!
;-)

While jumping with a Peak is possible (with experience), learning to jump with them is hardly. I learned depower, ground handling and started jumping on my Venom II's and came across a good deal on my 15m Synergy a little later and never looked back.
Mind that I only fly and jump static as riding a board or buggy is not allowed on my beach. Jumping the ARC's is as much fun as I need anyways...




PL: Vibe II 1.9m | Twister IIr 4.1m
PL Twinskin: Guerilla II 15m | Venom II 10m & 13m| Scorpion 10m | Synergy 10m, 12m & 15m
Ozone: Ignition 2.5m | Flow 2m & 3m
Born NASA Star 2: 1.5m | 2.5m | 4m | 5.5m | 7m
FlySurfer: Peak2 12m
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[*] posted on 5-23-2017 at 08:00 AM


@indestructible- The projected area for the 13m venom II, 15m Synergy, and 15m charger2 is almost all identical (about 9m I think). I have owned and flown all 3 of them and while my favorite is certainly the charger2- bang for the buck would be the 15m synergy and then the 13m venom2 and then the charger2- given the fact that the charger 2 has a smaller following it will be harder to find used and my thought is that you should be able to find either the synergy or venom closer to what you want to spend- figure ~350 for either rtf whereas the charger2 would probably be closer to 600 or more if you could even find it. given your size I would recommend staying away form the 16m venomii- I think it is more like a 13m for big boys was I found it slower and really did not add any advantage for size.
Scott

ps one day I will learn to use punctuation




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PL Arcs- 10m Venom 1, 13m, 19m Venom II, 15m Charger2
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IndestructibleYoungMan


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[*] posted on 5-23-2017 at 05:27 PM


:D:thumbup: This is great info thanks guys! I appreciate everyone's input. It's awesome to see so many comments and to have met some of y'all face-to-face!

One of the (minor) reason's I mentioned PL arcs over something like a Peak is because I like the idea that an ARC is water relaunchable (at least in theory, I've seen a guy try to relaunch while kite-surfing and it didn't look easy). I'm not sure how many kites I will be able to afford in the future and I like the idea/fantasy that one of these days I will be able to attempt kite surfing. :thumbup:

After reviewing all advice I am still thinking about a Synergy 15m. (I would love a Charger II if I had the $$$, I've watched Flyguy's in the air and it looks great!) I'm positive I would have my fair share of Tacos, Bow-ties, other food-related failures. But I've always kind of enjoyed steep learning curves; my first time flying a power kite was before a storm in 25 mph winds gusting to 70... that was crazy (and stupid)!

Are there any other water relaunchable depowers with good gust capabilities? I don't know much about LEI's, but also haven't really considered them an option.

By the way, two terms y'all mentioned flew right over my head; FLS Bar and VPC bridle... I pride myself on being a well-informed noob but I am not sure what these are?




"They will soar on wings like eagles..." Isaiah 40:31 NIV

Quiver:

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Trampa 15 degree short kiteboard
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