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Author: Subject: Noob - Progression questions
Wookiiiee




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[*] posted on 4-12-2017 at 07:03 AM
Noob - Progression questions


Brand new to this forum, so I hope this is in the right place. I put it in this part of the forums because I'm asking for gear recommendations below.

Last year at the beach I finally broke down and bought a Prism Tensor 5.0. I had been taught the basic of flight and control by a neighbor, and I had been interested for years. For 8 months now I've been flying it on foot 3 times a week at a nearby soccer field, going out in progressively stronger winds as I gained confidence. I've flown it so much than I am starting to see some wear on the flight lines and just ordered replacements. This forum would probably reprimand me for some of the high winds I've tried and some of the jumps I've done. I'm still loving it... but I want more. I live in northern Virginia, probably 3 hours from any beach.

Do I need to make a trip to get lessons before trying something bigger?

Could I try something bigger in my local/contained area by using an anchor or something?

Should I try a board with the kite I am familiar with, rather than try other kites?

Trying to figure out what kind of lines, bars, harness, etc., I need can be a bit daunting, so I'm hoping someone can recommend what to try next.

Finally, I have an 8 year old son who interested as well. He's pretty strong/heavy (~90 lbs). The Prism 5.0 is obviously too big for him, even in light winds. What would this forum recommend for him to learn on? I was looking at the Flexifoil Control 2.4. Many of the other comparable kites either don't come with a bar and lines or they are sold out on Amazon.

Thanks in advance for helping this noobie!






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Demoknight


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[*] posted on 4-12-2017 at 07:20 AM


If you are wanting to fly fixed bridle kites, use handles, not a bar. Convert the Tensor bar into the handles ASAP. The Tensor is a dog on the bar, but actually a really great kite on handles. If you want to fly on a bar, a depower kite is the only way to go. Something like the Ozone Access in the 10m size for you. It will feel pretty familiar to you and will be great for a board if that is your ultimate goal. Don't let the size scare you. Larger kites are easier to fly than smaller kites in general. Just as long as you are in appropriate wind for the size, you will progress nicely.

Does your son fly at all with any two line kites already? If not, maybe something like a Snapshot. If he already knows how to fly a kite, then a 4m-6m Access would be a great place to start for him.

Depower kites are not as efficient as foil kites, so larger sizes are needed for pulling the same load as a fixed bridle. That 10m Access you could say is equivalent to your Tensor in pull on the low end, but will actually have a much higher top end and be a bit more stable. The 4m Access is similar to a 2m-4m kite in terms of pull depending on the winds.




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Kites:

Flysurfer Speed 3 Deluxe 19m
Peter Lynn Charger 2 12m
Peter Lynn 2013 Reactor 5.5m
Peter Lynn 2013 Reactor 8.6m
Prism Tensor 5.0m

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Weird Beard VTT Custom
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Wookiiiee




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[*] posted on 4-12-2017 at 07:32 AM
Thanks


A 10 M? Wow, that's surprising. The power that the Tensor 5 can generate had me terrified to attempt something that large without a lot more guidance and safety instruction. Can you still put up something that large in a confined location like a soccer field? Or I need to find better locations nearby to go further?

I've been teaching my son on the Tensor 5.0 in light winds where I am strapped to the brakes but he can throttle/steer. He understands the basics of control, but I don't have anything where I can let him be completely in control.

With respect to bar / handles - Almost all my flying on the Tensor has been on handles. I was taught the basics on handles, so I started there when I bought the kite. I converted it to a bar once and didn't like how the kite felt sluggish, so I went back to handles.
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abkayak


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[*] posted on 4-12-2017 at 07:38 AM


Welcome Wookiiiee...best thing you can do is show up at Wildwood for at least a day
any and all your questions would be resolved in person...you and your son would be able to fly
anything that peeks your interest...
problem solved:thumbup::thumbup:

only 2 weeks out




US-31...Cquad set/ 2.6 Viper/ 2.9m Reactor/ 3.3 Buster/ 3.5m Lobster Foil/ 3.5m Bullet/ 4m Buster/ 4m RMSD 2 line Special/ 4m Ikon dp/ 4.9m Blade/ 5.6 Twister/ 6.6m Blade/ 7.3 Frenzy/ 7.5 Apex/ 9m Fuel/ 13m Pulse/ Phantom I 9,12,15,18/ MBS Core 8&16/ Flexboard Haise/ 2 Flexibugs/ PL Comp XR/ PL Big Foot
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[*] posted on 4-12-2017 at 08:17 AM


Yup, what abkayak said.
There's nothing like reality as a basis for decision making.
Wildwood - best kite learnin' to be had east of the Mississippi.

Fly safe




Go ahead... tell me to "go fly a kite!" Please!

Howard KC67 NAPKA District #12 Representative
Fly: A quiver of Lynx' and Cores and a Rev to remind me about control (did someone say "Pansh"?)
Ride: PL XR+ with BigKid AQR
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Wookiiiee




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[*] posted on 4-12-2017 at 09:27 AM
Wildwood


Is Wildwood May 26-29? Or is there something else that is only 2 weeks out? I could probably actually make in out late May. I have family in New Jersey we could go see and check out Wildwood.
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hiaguy


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[*] posted on 4-12-2017 at 11:42 AM


Yup. Wildwood Buggy Bash: April 24 - 29 :wee:

Wildwood info:
http://www.powerkiteforum.com/viewthread.php?tid=33299

Most people arrive on Thursday, but some of us are a couple of days earlier.




Go ahead... tell me to "go fly a kite!" Please!

Howard KC67 NAPKA District #12 Representative
Fly: A quiver of Lynx' and Cores and a Rev to remind me about control (did someone say "Pansh"?)
Ride: PL XR+ with BigKid AQR
Where: 43.857899, -78.941661 and 38.970951, -74.828922
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Windstruck


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[*] posted on 4-12-2017 at 03:00 PM


Welcome to the forum! Always nice to see fine new folks joining the fold. In years past I owned the 3, 4, and 5m varieties of the 5m Tensor and cut my teeth on them so to speak in the traction world. The 5m Tensor truly does have "stump pulling power" as their ad copy suggests. Being as you are familiar (and apparently pleased) with your Tensor, one way to go would be to get the 3m for your son (and for you on higher wind days when taking out the 5m is just plain follie.

I've owned and really like the Access kites suggested earlier. The one thing I'd add is that the Access and kites like it are so called DP kites and are wholly different beasts than your FB Tensor. My humble suggestion would be to decide where you are headed before investing in more kites for yourself. By that I mean staying a static flyer or going mobile. If mobile, then how do you plan to get around (buggy, board, skates, skis, all of the above, etc.). If your are planning on staying static then the Access might feel even more dead than your Tensor on a bar. DPs really shine when moving and are purpose built for that. They're pretty much dogs static. The slow movement of a larger DP in motion will likely be a total buzz kill for static flying.

The other suggestion, viz., getting your seat meat down to Wildwood is absolutely the right call. You will learn more in one day there than months reading on forums like this and attempting to work this out yourself in your mind.

I'm a West guy so IBX is my yearly event. I learned more about Kiting in the cumulative 6 days I've spent there than during my 10 some odd years of solo flying combined. Really, get to Wildwood!

Great that you're getting your son in the game. Please, for both you and your son, wear a helmet.




Kites:
Born-Kite LongStar-2 (3.5m, 5.5m, 7.5m, 9.5m, 12.5m);
Born-Kite NASA Star-3 (1.5m, 2.5m, 3.2m, 4.0m; z-bridled for handle flying)

Buggy:
Peter Lynn Bigfoot+ modified with VTT rail & seat kit (a seriously great performance upgrade), two sets of Sysmic rims (one set with BigFoot slicks for the "beach" of the Great Salt Lake and the other with 6-ply trailer tires for the Ivanpah playa), and BigKidKites AQR (because it keeps me in the bug and in my marriage)

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Wookiiiee




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[*] posted on 4-12-2017 at 04:09 PM


arrrgh! Getting out to Wildwood the week of April 24-29 is going to be really tough. I wish I had found this forum a month ago before making work plans.

Regarding going mobile versus static: I'm not sure where I am headed. I have a sense that I'm living in the wrong location to tackle mobility. Taking regular road trips to get to a beach would be tough with my work schedule, and I'm not aware of non-beach areas near me for getting on an ATB or buggy.

So assuming I'm stuck static flying for a little while, what would you recommend?

Thanks all for the feedback and info! I've already learned a lot today just by browsing around. I hope to make it out to Wildwood, though might just be that Friday.
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Windstruck


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[*] posted on 4-12-2017 at 07:09 PM


Quote: Originally posted by Wookiiiee  
arrrgh! So assuming I'm stuck static flying for a little while, what would you recommend?



Ha! Good question. Please start here:

http://www.powerkiteforum.com/viewthread.php?tid=28759

Since you asked I'd actually stick with my original recommendation, viz., a 3m FB 4-line foil. Nope, not a very creative answer, but that doesn't make it the wrong one. Here's the thing: this "little" kite can still nearly pull your arms out of your sockets in a brisk wind and will move much more nimbly through the sky than your "big" FB that you already own. This relative quickness in the sky will force you to be much more on your toes reaction-wise than your 5m Tensor that comparatively moves like a slow barge in the skies. This smaller FB will double as a fine kite for your son allowing you both to get some big action on the same days.

Should you ever get moving with wheels a 3m FB is pretty much a must-have in your quiver. Not a lot of these pop up on the used market here but just a week or so back a 3m PL Hornet came and went for $175 I believe. That woulda coulda shoulda kite would have been ideal.

If you are going to stay static for a while you might want to consider the PL Uniq Quad in the 2.5m size:

http://www.peterlynn.com/products/single-skin-kites/uniq-qua...

This is a so-called Single Skin kite. Your son (and you maybe too) will likely pile drive a smaller, faster moving kite into the ground. Such action can on occasion damage regular two-skin kites by bursting their cells. Can't do that if the kite doesn't have 'em!

Final thing: everybody loves wide open spaces like endless beaches and dry lake beds, but tons and tons of us have put in countless hours of buggying and other mobile Kiting pursuits on soccer fields across these fruited plains. There's always room in the Janky Wind Club and all that frequent turning around will really develop your skills. Then once you do get to Wildwood or other big expanses you'll know what you are doing and will feel like you've gotten the keys to buggy heaven. Jump in!




Kites:
Born-Kite LongStar-2 (3.5m, 5.5m, 7.5m, 9.5m, 12.5m);
Born-Kite NASA Star-3 (1.5m, 2.5m, 3.2m, 4.0m; z-bridled for handle flying)

Buggy:
Peter Lynn Bigfoot+ modified with VTT rail & seat kit (a seriously great performance upgrade), two sets of Sysmic rims (one set with BigFoot slicks for the "beach" of the Great Salt Lake and the other with 6-ply trailer tires for the Ivanpah playa), and BigKidKites AQR (because it keeps me in the bug and in my marriage)

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Wookiiiee




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[*] posted on 4-12-2017 at 08:18 PM


Still more awesome info. Thanks for chiming in on the location topic. I was sort of afraid to ask "is it a terrible idea to try an ATB on an empty soccer field?"

I guess I just had visions of crashing into bleachers.
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Unk


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[*] posted on 4-13-2017 at 12:15 AM



Quote:

I was sort of afraid to ask "is it a terrible idea to try an ATB on an empty soccer field?"

Its better than a full soccer field :evil:
I fly/buggy mostly on playing fields surrounded by trees and houses, once you accept this as the norm you just fly through it and as Windstruck said when you do get to hit the beach you have no worries just get out and play.

Can I apply for the "Janky Wind Club" :smilegrin: loving that idea




1.5mtr HQ Beamer IV, 3mtr PKD Buster II, 4.9mtr Flexifoil Blade III, 5.5mtr PKD Buster I, 5.5mtr PKD Brooza II, 7mtr PKD Buster I
16mtr PL Venom I
Org Flexifoil Buggy cut & shut with side rails
Now with the tandem option
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flyguy0101


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[*] posted on 4-13-2017 at 05:07 AM


@Wookiiee- There are several kiters in the nova area and I know one of them talks about riding in a park along the Potomac but cant remember what it was called- I am sure one of them will chime in. As for Wildwood- you will be amazed- I went to my first one in 2007 and have been going every yr since - great group of people and you will learn and see more then you can imagine. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0pxGGWNcKM Click on that link and you will get an idea of the event- the hotel is cheap the people are awesome the only down side is the beach can be a little small:D
hope you can figure out a way to make it




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www.trampaboards.com

My rides- Flexi buggy and Trampa mtn board
My engines-
HQ Scout 2m , 4m
Flexi Rage 3.5 & 4.7
PL Arcs- 10m Venom 1, 13m, 19m Venom II, 15m Charger2
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jimbocz




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[*] posted on 4-13-2017 at 06:41 AM


If you decide to board or buggy, 3 hours is not that far for the beach, especially if your boy wants to road trip with you. Of course, you'll want to pay attention to the wind forecast (speed and direction) and the tide before you plan your trip.

Where I live, https://www.windguru.cz/ is the best tool for forecasting winds. GFS is good for a few days ahead, WRF is the most accurate short term.

My buggy spot is 2 hours away and the whole family loves to spend the day.

This weekend the winds are from the West so I'm planning a rare trip to Llangennith in Wales . It's 4 hours away, which admittedly is a bit far for a day. It is doable and the beach will be worth it for the perfect on shore breeze.

If you are just planning to static fly, then I would forget about depower and buy a 3 meter fixed bridle like Windstruck says. After that, buy a 7 meter fixed bridle just for fun on very lightwind days. You don't need any anchor to fly a bigger kite, just the correct wind conditions.

If you want to start jumping, look at bigger kites that will lift you easy and set you back down easy. Make sure your insurance is up to date and be careful.
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Windstruck


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[*] posted on 4-13-2017 at 11:37 AM


The one thing I'll add is welcome to the sometimes tricky world of "asking for permission" versus "begging for forgiveness" when it comes to buggy access on your local fields. Here's the rub: if you find out who is in charge and ask them if it is alright to use the field you will almost certainly be rejected and then you're shut down and screwed. What usually happens is you will be having a fine time on a deserted field for a few times and then some groundskeeper will report you to whoever is in charge. They likely won't have specific rules forbidding you access but will likely have rules in place to forbid "motorized" vehicles. The person in charge will walk out to you in your buggy and ask you to stop. Then you get to have the fun discussion of explaining that you too pay taxes and have access to the field like everybody else. And no, wind power isn't the same as being motorized.

My suggestion is to be polite and gracious but don't just roll over. I've had folks tell me to get off a field when I've got giant Bigfoot tires that don't leave a mark at the same time as kids are racing up and down the field on mountain bikes that are tearing up the grass. Having Bigfoots is a lot nicer on the grass than thin tires. Remember, you will be going back and forth in more or less the same oval and turning in more or less the same place. If you screw up their grass they aren't going to be very happy with you.

I wish you the very best of luck!




Kites:
Born-Kite LongStar-2 (3.5m, 5.5m, 7.5m, 9.5m, 12.5m);
Born-Kite NASA Star-3 (1.5m, 2.5m, 3.2m, 4.0m; z-bridled for handle flying)

Buggy:
Peter Lynn Bigfoot+ modified with VTT rail & seat kit (a seriously great performance upgrade), two sets of Sysmic rims (one set with BigFoot slicks for the "beach" of the Great Salt Lake and the other with 6-ply trailer tires for the Ivanpah playa), and BigKidKites AQR (because it keeps me in the bug and in my marriage)

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Wookiiiee




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[*] posted on 4-13-2017 at 12:35 PM


Based on the recommendations here, I returned the 2.4 M Flexifoil Control and ordered the Peter Lynn 2.5 M UNIQ single skin. I assume my son will crash it over and over, so it seems like the right choice for us both.
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Windstruck


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[*] posted on 4-13-2017 at 12:43 PM


Quote: Originally posted by Wookiiiee  
Based on the recommendations here, I returned the 2.4 M Flexifoil Control and ordered the Peter Lynn 2.5 M UNIQ single skin. I assume my son will crash it over and over, so it seems like the right choice for us both.


The Uniq Quad kites are nicely constructed basic SS power kites that are prettty hard to destroy. I don't think you can hurt it driving it into the ground at max velocity but stay well clear of obstacles like fences, park benches, soccer goal posts, street lights, trash cans etc. Those things and many, many more obstacles can do quite a number on any kite. Plus, they all have black hole effects for all things kite like!




Kites:
Born-Kite LongStar-2 (3.5m, 5.5m, 7.5m, 9.5m, 12.5m);
Born-Kite NASA Star-3 (1.5m, 2.5m, 3.2m, 4.0m; z-bridled for handle flying)

Buggy:
Peter Lynn Bigfoot+ modified with VTT rail & seat kit (a seriously great performance upgrade), two sets of Sysmic rims (one set with BigFoot slicks for the "beach" of the Great Salt Lake and the other with 6-ply trailer tires for the Ivanpah playa), and BigKidKites AQR (because it keeps me in the bug and in my marriage)

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SWATK Member UT00003
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Wookiiiee




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[*] posted on 4-27-2017 at 04:53 PM
Thanks! and Jinxed!


So the UNIQ 2.5 came in and I gave it to my son for his birthday. We took it out for the first time today. He was getting the hang of it quickly, although I had to keep reminding him to let his arms back out.

AND THEN, IT HAPPENED, just like this forum warned me.

I have been flying at this same soccer field for 8 months, and today for the first time while out with my son, I got accosted by a groundskeeper, claiming kite flying wasn't allowed. Totally ruined the session. By the way, there is nothing on the county park rules about kites.
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pongnut


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[*] posted on 5-1-2017 at 11:49 AM


That stinks! Is that a "public" or "private" soccer field?



2m Radsails Pro (crazyherb), 2.1m Symphony Beach II (Amazon), 3m HQ Beamer IV (K-Bid), 4m (3.3m) Pansh Flux (garydog), 4.0m HQ Toxic (SecondWind), 5.6m PL Twister IIR (Big Mike), 6m Flysurfer Peak 1 (Flysurfer USA), 11m HQ Neo II (kiteplace), 19m PL Venom II (Smeagol), MBS Core 95 ATB (Overstock.com), couple of ROSSIGNOL snowboards w/ SIS "click" bindings
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Wookiiiee




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[*] posted on 5-2-2017 at 12:16 PM


It's a public park, and the park website has no rules against kite flying. I think I'll be going back with a rules printout in my kite bag in case I have to defend myself again. I have a few other park options where I won't likely run into the same contentious grounds keeper.
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pongnut


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[*] posted on 5-2-2017 at 01:03 PM


Yeah, sounds like that guy is just being a pr1ck. Good to know you other options - I'm jealous :P



2m Radsails Pro (crazyherb), 2.1m Symphony Beach II (Amazon), 3m HQ Beamer IV (K-Bid), 4m (3.3m) Pansh Flux (garydog), 4.0m HQ Toxic (SecondWind), 5.6m PL Twister IIR (Big Mike), 6m Flysurfer Peak 1 (Flysurfer USA), 11m HQ Neo II (kiteplace), 19m PL Venom II (Smeagol), MBS Core 95 ATB (Overstock.com), couple of ROSSIGNOL snowboards w/ SIS "click" bindings
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Windstruck


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[*] posted on 5-2-2017 at 01:23 PM


Quote: Originally posted by Wookiiiee  
It's a public park, and the park website has no rules against kite flying. I think I'll be going back with a rules printout in my kite bag in case I have to defend myself again. I have a few other park options where I won't likely run into the same contentious grounds keeper.


Wyatt Earp, Groundskeeper Sheriff. Sad, but every town seems to have one. I've got a few myself. I ended up finding out who the actual boss-man was after a while and actually went and visited with him. I was able to work some things out, but it was pretty ridiculous that I even had to do that.

It's an imperfect world when it comes to things such as this, but doing as you say seems as good as any. If Wyatt shows up again and pulls out his heater you may have to go def-com four and seek out his boss. Be polite, but also know your rights (as you do). You've got the whole kite world at your back! Comforting, isn't it? ;)




Kites:
Born-Kite LongStar-2 (3.5m, 5.5m, 7.5m, 9.5m, 12.5m);
Born-Kite NASA Star-3 (1.5m, 2.5m, 3.2m, 4.0m; z-bridled for handle flying)

Buggy:
Peter Lynn Bigfoot+ modified with VTT rail & seat kit (a seriously great performance upgrade), two sets of Sysmic rims (one set with BigFoot slicks for the "beach" of the Great Salt Lake and the other with 6-ply trailer tires for the Ivanpah playa), and BigKidKites AQR (because it keeps me in the bug and in my marriage)

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Bladerunner


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[*] posted on 5-2-2017 at 06:00 PM


It is crazy how the perception of the people who know nothing about our sport and the reality of the situation are so different. We have gone from being tossed out of our local park to being invited to fly a few selective kites ( + hopefully have our Rev' group put on a show ) at a tall ship festival there this weekend. A pleasant turn about!

They used to think that when we had our huge kites up that we were a major danger. They understand now how we size our kites to match the winds. That we are actually a much greater hazard when the wind is strong and we are flying our smallest kites. Problem is, we make it all look too easy and are more likely to have our big kites drop slowly due to no wind than crash in strong stuff. When we appear most dangerous to the public the chances of us actually hurting somebody are almost non existent. When we are most dangerous the weather isn't " park " weather so we don't have so many people to deal with.

It probably doesn't matter but NAPKA is a group you can join to gain liability insurance to hold ( your own personal ) events with if the land requires that? Not saying you want to go that route but knowing it exists may help you discussing your situation the next time?




Kites: 2.5m Profoil , 4.9m QuadrifoilXL kitesurfer, 9m Flexi Blade II, NPW 5 Danger.
Flysurfer : 19m Speed 2 SA, 7m Pulse
Peter Lynn :18m Phantom, 15m Synergy, 10m Synergy, 1200 Farc, 460 Sarc, 130 Tarc, 5m Peel, 4.2m , 6.4, 8.5 C-Quads

Rides: Flexi / P.L. Frankin'Buggy , Shaped + straight skiis, sand skis, Coyote blades. Core 95 ATB. RKB R2 ATB .

Ken (K2)
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skimtwashington




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[*] posted on 5-3-2017 at 06:49 AM


Did you keep flying or put away the kite after your park person came to dismiss your activity? Did you know there was no written restriction when he came over or later upon research?

Make sure you have-indeed- seen the complete official rules ... and then remind any staff if they come over( that there's no restriction). Make a visit and talk with the 'big boss' if necessary to stop similar confrontations.


Parks, reserves, and such public lands are set aside for recreation and to encourage and promote use of many kinds, as long as it harms no public or the land itself.

Rules are not arbitrary but must be written out officially......and if there's no rule restricting kiting..... go fly.
(... sadly... sometimes they make a new rule restriction.)


Always be polite, state your rights, and that you are safe and in control around others. Fly safely. Be friendly and considerate of other users. Pick up litter and be a steward for the land. No reason to ever ban your activity...you see.



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Wookiiiee




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[*] posted on 5-3-2017 at 06:13 PM
follow-up


I was about ready to leave when he started berating me, so I packed up and discussed it with him while I was packing up. My son was with me, which was probably good because it kept me from being more... rude. I had checked the rules beforehand, and he said that it didn't matter, that there were rules that weren't posted and I should call "the boss".

It was just really discouraging. Nine times out of ten I usually get a lot of interest and positive feedback. "So cool! That looks like a real workout!" and such.


Silver lining: It forced me to check out some empty fields at a community college nearby. It's a slightly better space with fewer obstructions. A cop came by, said it was cool, asked a few questions about it, and went on his way. I'll take that as a positive sign.


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