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Author: Subject: OffAxis Oblique Buggy Build
rtz


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[*] posted on 6-13-2016 at 07:55 PM


6204 is the bearing for the PL wheels. 6204's with a 3/4" ID are listed on eBay vs's the standard 20mm ones if you want to use a 3/4" bolt or stud for your axles:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/6204-2RS-12-6204-2RS-3-4-1-PC-FACTOR...

Have you considered welding a 3/4" nut into your axle tube? Popeye has a video on building the axle where he welds the nut onto a round disc to center it and welds that into the axle tube.

Show me a close up of the center of a metal wheel that you were looking to use and what type of bearing setup it uses.




Current setup-

Gusty/Stormy: Sting 1.7, 2.4, 3.3
Main: Hornet 2, 3, 4
Alternate: Flux 2, 3, 4, 5
Light Wind: Reactor 5.5 or JOJO 9

Extra Variety: Yakuza 2.2, 2.7 - PKD SF 1.5, 2.2, 3.3, 4.4 - Beamer 2, 3 - Ozone Quattro 1, 3 - Flow 2, 3, 4 - HQ Alpha 3.5 - Cross Kites 4.5 - Rage 1.8, 2.5, 3.5, 4.7 - Blurr 3.5, 5 - Reactor 2.2, 2.8, 3.5, 4.4
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OffAxis


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[*] posted on 6-14-2016 at 04:26 AM


I was thinking of using these wheelbarrow rims. But might purchase the PL plastic rims because the price is very similar.

These are the bearings that are compatible with the wheelbarrow rims:


I have watched the popeye video and plan on doing the same. It will look something like this:

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WELDNGOD


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[*] posted on 6-14-2016 at 05:24 AM


Been there done that... The weld will crack. Get the PL wheels.




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NAPKA US187
PKD
Combat 2.4 / 4.2
Century 1.8 / 5.5
Century II 2.2/2.8/3.5/4.5 /10.0
Buster Soulfly 1.5 / 2.2 (KIA)/ 3.3
Buster Soulfly PRO 3.3 / 4.4
Buster (gen 1) 5.5
FLEXIFOIL
Sting 1.7 Punk
Rage 2.5 / 3.5/ 4.7
Revolution 1.5 SLE
17 ply Custom TRAMPA w/ verTIGo trucks
2 homebrew buggies,2 homebrew KYTBYKS,1 homebrew tandem trailer
GOPRO 3 WHITE, 3+ BLACK, HERO5 BLACK
CONTOUR HD
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Chook


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[*] posted on 6-14-2016 at 05:12 PM


Don't use steel if you can avoid them. They rust around the valve and trap moisture between the halves. As soon as they chip they look like crap. Salt yellows the paint on the rims too.
I just replaced these sort of rims on a "Pelican" yacht jinker. They we not 12 months old. The bearings in them were complete crap too. The rubber seal didn't even run in a groove on the inner race.

I haven't bent an 3/4" axle (but use Hitensile bolts) but have changed all my 11 landyachts and 3 buggies over to 20mm to keep them all standard. I only have 2 sizes of bearings and use high quality Stainless steel bearings.
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John Holgate




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[*] posted on 6-15-2016 at 02:26 PM


Eventually, you might want a nice set of alloy Sysmic rims - so go with the 20mm. I used some threaded gal rod on this one... http://www.extremekites.com.au/gallery/image/132-vermin-stub... Rather than use a bolt, I have also inserted some 20mm rod into my Vmax axle and locked it in place with a nut....then I slide the tire onto the threaded rod and put a nylock on the outside. This has been easy to take on and off and doesn't come loose.



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[*] posted on 6-15-2016 at 02:50 PM


John, why don't the treads get damaged from the bearings. I don't think i'm going to design a rolling element to be supported by bolt threads.

Does anyone know of a source of M20 bolts in the USA other then McMasterCarr? Or an internet store that ships to the US. I can't find anything and until I do I think I'm gonna stick with 3/4" or 5/8".
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[*] posted on 6-15-2016 at 02:53 PM


Grainger or McMaster-Carr



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NAPKA US187
PKD
Combat 2.4 / 4.2
Century 1.8 / 5.5
Century II 2.2/2.8/3.5/4.5 /10.0
Buster Soulfly 1.5 / 2.2 (KIA)/ 3.3
Buster Soulfly PRO 3.3 / 4.4
Buster (gen 1) 5.5
FLEXIFOIL
Sting 1.7 Punk
Rage 2.5 / 3.5/ 4.7
Revolution 1.5 SLE
17 ply Custom TRAMPA w/ verTIGo trucks
2 homebrew buggies,2 homebrew KYTBYKS,1 homebrew tandem trailer
GOPRO 3 WHITE, 3+ BLACK, HERO5 BLACK
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[*] posted on 6-15-2016 at 03:07 PM


do you still the angle of the fork? I could check mine for you if you still need that
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[*] posted on 6-15-2016 at 03:47 PM


People have tried to reinvent the wheelbarrow wheel from times before actual buggy wheels were available CHEAP!
There are all sorts of reasons the wheelbarrow wheels don't work in the long haul.
You are throwing good money at a bad idea IMHO. Go with cheap PL plastic wheels and 20mm bolts. NOT doing so will not allow you to easily change out to better buggy wheels down the road.

I thought your side goal was to build so others can buy your stuff? Going imperial won't be of much value to others?




Kites: 2.5m Profoil , 4.9m QuadrifoilXL kitesurfer, 9m Flexi Blade II, NPW 5 Danger.
Flysurfer : 19m Speed 2 SA, 7m Pulse
Peter Lynn :18m Phantom, 15m Synergy, 10m Synergy, 1200 Farc, 460 Sarc, 130 Tarc, 5m Peel, 4.2m , 6.4, 8.5 C-Quads

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John Holgate




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[*] posted on 6-16-2016 at 12:53 AM



Quote:

John, why don't the treads get damaged from the bearings. I don't think i'm going to design a rolling element to be supported by bolt threads.


It doesn't spin against the threads, in fact its the bit of the bearing the nut comes up against and locks the wheel in place. I've done a few thousand km's on this setup so far on both buggies and the threads are still fine and it's easy to cut a new bit to length if I need to. Beamer Bob put me onto it a few years ago. Easy to source locally too rather than try and get 20mm SS bolts.




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[*] posted on 6-16-2016 at 04:38 AM


Bladerunner: I would agree. Not going with 20mm does make things more challenging when it comes to choosing wheels. But with a simple bearing change out to 47x3/4"x14mm I think all the problems go away. So its not the end of the world. Once i begin looking into what spacers are readily available it might make the decision easier. The reason I lean towards imperial hardware is because it is way easier to get then metric.


John: You are correct, it does work. The decision to make sub shafts like that is probably because it was a cheap solution. But I'm of the opinion that it is a poor design choice to have bearings supported by threads. The threads and bearing can become damaged easily if things loosen up. To me, I believe it is worth the slight additional cost to avoid this scenario.

ssayre: I would be interested in knowing what a common fork angle is.
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[*] posted on 6-16-2016 at 07:48 AM


I got the threaded rod stub axle idea from Popeye. I got tired of having to buy expensive bolts every time I tried a different wheel configuration. They are infinitely adjustable. There is no need to worry about the threads being damaged by the large surface area of the bearing races. I too have several thousand miles on this setup and I've never had even a scuff on the threads. Another thing about using stub axles, is it gives the ability to lock the axle into the buggy with the jam nut and then the outside locknut allows perfect tightness on the wheel bearings without worrying about anything coming loose. You might have to struggle to get bolts with the right shoulder length for your wheels if you are locked into that path.



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Landsegler Disc wheels
PTW Hero Buggy - XXtreme ApeXX Buggy US 88 - Libre Hardcore
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Youtube link
Bob Muse
HQ Montana VIII 8m, HQ Ignition LEI 5m, HQ Prodigy 3.4m, 10.5
PL Phantom 12m, 15m, Big Blu 24m+, Synergy 10m, Venom 13m , Phantom II 6m, Vapors 2.7, 3.2, 3.8, 4.5, 5.4, Crosskite Sonic 7m
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[*] posted on 6-16-2016 at 01:13 PM


There is always 20mm round bar ,then weld a short 3/8 bolt on the end and use a locknut and washer to keep the wheel on. That is my current setup . Works great! Not cheap though.... http://www.onlinemetals.com/merchant.cfm?pid=22286&step=...



WELDNGOD on VIMEO
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NAPKA US187
PKD
Combat 2.4 / 4.2
Century 1.8 / 5.5
Century II 2.2/2.8/3.5/4.5 /10.0
Buster Soulfly 1.5 / 2.2 (KIA)/ 3.3
Buster Soulfly PRO 3.3 / 4.4
Buster (gen 1) 5.5
FLEXIFOIL
Sting 1.7 Punk
Rage 2.5 / 3.5/ 4.7
Revolution 1.5 SLE
17 ply Custom TRAMPA w/ verTIGo trucks
2 homebrew buggies,2 homebrew KYTBYKS,1 homebrew tandem trailer
GOPRO 3 WHITE, 3+ BLACK, HERO5 BLACK
CONTOUR HD
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[*] posted on 6-16-2016 at 01:15 PM


here it is in 304 ,a lil cheaper http://www.onlinemetals.com/merchant.cfm?pid=22254&step=...



WELDNGOD on VIMEO
https://vimeo.com/user2580342

NAPKA US187
PKD
Combat 2.4 / 4.2
Century 1.8 / 5.5
Century II 2.2/2.8/3.5/4.5 /10.0
Buster Soulfly 1.5 / 2.2 (KIA)/ 3.3
Buster Soulfly PRO 3.3 / 4.4
Buster (gen 1) 5.5
FLEXIFOIL
Sting 1.7 Punk
Rage 2.5 / 3.5/ 4.7
Revolution 1.5 SLE
17 ply Custom TRAMPA w/ verTIGo trucks
2 homebrew buggies,2 homebrew KYTBYKS,1 homebrew tandem trailer
GOPRO 3 WHITE, 3+ BLACK, HERO5 BLACK
CONTOUR HD
LET YOUR SOULFLY!

RIDER for KOKOPELLI KITER

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John Holgate




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[*] posted on 6-16-2016 at 03:14 PM



Quote:

The decision to make sub shafts like that is probably because it was a cheap solution.


No, it was the convenience of being able to use different width hubs and the convenience of using one nut to take tires on and off. The original Vmax used the SS 20mm bolts with a lock nut on the inside - this required two spanners to be used at the same time to get the correct tension - which was always a bit hit and miss. I have seen single bolt setups come loose and the wheel literally fell off. There's always more than one way to skin the proverbial cat.




Libre Vmax, Alloy Vermin buggy.
Ozone Access/Method/Riot/Imps/
Born-Kite Nasa Star 2's & 3. Born-Kite Long Star 3,5,7m. Peak 2 6m.
My Music is available here: http://www.soundclick.com/members/default.cfm?member=jbholga...
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[*] posted on 6-16-2016 at 04:43 PM


Yep. Not for cheap, but for security, convenience, and adaptability.



Coastal Wind Sports Team Rider
Landsegler Disc wheels
PTW Hero Buggy - XXtreme ApeXX Buggy US 88 - Libre Hardcore
IvanpahBuggyExpo.com
Youtube link
Bob Muse
HQ Montana VIII 8m, HQ Ignition LEI 5m, HQ Prodigy 3.4m, 10.5
PL Phantom 12m, 15m, Big Blu 24m+, Synergy 10m, Venom 13m , Phantom II 6m, Vapors 2.7, 3.2, 3.8, 4.5, 5.4, Crosskite Sonic 7m
Uturn Butane 2.5m PKD Buster 3m Genetrix Hydra 7m Ozone Yakuza GT 14m
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[*] posted on 6-23-2016 at 06:26 PM



Quote:

There is always 20mm round bar ,then weld a short 3/8 bolt on the end and use a locknut and washer to keep the wheel on. That is my current setup . Works great! Not cheap though.... http://www.onlinemetals.com/merchant.cfm?pid=22286&step=...


How do you set your end play on the bearings with this method? Or do you just get it close and let the bearings walk. I guess you could stack shims/spacers/washers and get it to tighten down to lock the inner races in place.

With a bolt method and proper spacers between the bearings, you can tighten down on the inner races and lock them into position. But then a Left Hand threaded bolt should be considered for the rear right wheel.

Thoughts?

I have a feeling Flexifoil and PeterLynn concluded that using a bolt bearing spacer was the most economical choice while maintaining effectiveness. I'm also going to assume during their testing, they have determined that a left hand threaded bolt is not required and using thread tape or lock tight is sufficient to prevent the bolt coming loose.
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[*] posted on 6-23-2016 at 07:00 PM


Quote: Originally posted by OffAxis  

I have a feeling Flexifoil and PeterLynn concluded that using a bolt bearing spacer was the most economical choice while maintaining effectiveness. I'm also going to assume during their testing, they have determined that a left hand threaded bolt is not required and using thread tape or lock tight is sufficient to prevent the bolt coming loose.

It's been interesting watching this thread progress.
I am about the least technical person on this board. I want to get in a basic buggy, and get down the beach, and back, with as little risk as possible.
I have a stock PL XR+ and have never had an issue with the axel bolts (20mm) coming loose - no tape or loctite. Like you, I can only imagine that if they're selling it that way, it's probably for a good reason (even if it is just plain old economics).
Now, I have had an issue with the stainless bolts on the side rails seizing, but then I learned about anti-seize, and life was good again.
I look forward to seeing your buggy - custom, stock, or otherwise - at WBB.




Go ahead... tell me to "go fly a kite!" Please!

Howard KC67 NAPKA District #12 Representative
Fly: A quiver of Lynx' and Cores and a Rev to remind me about control (did someone say "Pansh"?)
Ride: PL XR+ with BigKid AQR
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[*] posted on 6-23-2016 at 08:05 PM


I appreciate the kind words of encouragement. I hope that anyone who reads this thread can learn something or add their technical knowledge tips.

I'm looking forward to WBB this fall. Maybe if I get this build pulled together I'll have version 1 their and maiden it.
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[*] posted on 6-24-2016 at 06:23 AM


Quote: Originally posted by OffAxis  

Quote:

There is always 20mm round bar ,then weld a short 3/8 bolt on the end and use a locknut and washer to keep the wheel on. That is my current setup . Works great! Not cheap though.... http://www.onlinemetals.com/merchant.cfm?pid=22286&step=...


How do you set your end play on the bearings with this method? Or do you just get it close and let the bearings walk. I guess you could stack shims/spacers/washers and get it to tighten down to lock the inner races in place.

With a bolt method and proper spacers between the bearings, you can tighten down on the inner races and lock them into position. But then a Left Hand threaded bolt should be considered for the rear right wheel.

Thoughts?

I have a feeling Flexifoil and PeterLynn concluded that using a bolt bearing spacer was the most economical choice while maintaining effectiveness. I'm also going to assume during their testing, they have determined that a left hand threaded bolt is not required and using thread tape or lock tight is sufficient to prevent the bolt coming loose.
You just cut it to size and use a washer with a nylock nut, right hand on both is fine. In 10 yrs. I have only lost one wheel. A steel one like in your pic.... Weld cracked on the hub and the whole wheel came off.Luckily it was the upwind rear so nothing bad happened.




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NAPKA US187
PKD
Combat 2.4 / 4.2
Century 1.8 / 5.5
Century II 2.2/2.8/3.5/4.5 /10.0
Buster Soulfly 1.5 / 2.2 (KIA)/ 3.3
Buster Soulfly PRO 3.3 / 4.4
Buster (gen 1) 5.5
FLEXIFOIL
Sting 1.7 Punk
Rage 2.5 / 3.5/ 4.7
Revolution 1.5 SLE
17 ply Custom TRAMPA w/ verTIGo trucks
2 homebrew buggies,2 homebrew KYTBYKS,1 homebrew tandem trailer
GOPRO 3 WHITE, 3+ BLACK, HERO5 BLACK
CONTOUR HD
LET YOUR SOULFLY!

RIDER for KOKOPELLI KITER

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[*] posted on 6-24-2016 at 08:14 AM


Yes the stub axle is much easier to get the correct pressure on the bearings because the jam nut already has the axle locked in place. Just tighten the nylok to the tightness you want. Never had one come loose.



Coastal Wind Sports Team Rider
Landsegler Disc wheels
PTW Hero Buggy - XXtreme ApeXX Buggy US 88 - Libre Hardcore
IvanpahBuggyExpo.com
Youtube link
Bob Muse
HQ Montana VIII 8m, HQ Ignition LEI 5m, HQ Prodigy 3.4m, 10.5
PL Phantom 12m, 15m, Big Blu 24m+, Synergy 10m, Venom 13m , Phantom II 6m, Vapors 2.7, 3.2, 3.8, 4.5, 5.4, Crosskite Sonic 7m
Uturn Butane 2.5m PKD Buster 3m Genetrix Hydra 7m Ozone Yakuza GT 14m
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volock




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[*] posted on 6-24-2016 at 10:40 PM


In terms of wheels, I picked up fairly cheap from CL a set of motorcycle wheels (two actually). Total paid for both (one set of two front GSXR wheels with tires, one set of two rear and one front steel spoked wheels) was around $120. Another $20 was spend on bearings/pipe to cut spacers for all the wheels. Ironically the Spoked wheels came with 15mm bearings, but I needed 20mm (and they were old/rusted/groady), one GSXR wheel came in 21mm and one in 23mm.

Fairly cheap overall for wheels that'll last me, and look good. The spoked ones still look a little rough, I'm slowly getting the steel wool to them to get them looking shiny again. The others are gorgeous in my eyes. Nice and tall (and narrow enough) for back wheels for the grass fields with too many divots/empty dirt lots so I don't bottom out like I occasionally did on my stock wheels. Weight is a bit higher than some would want, but I'm not trying to freestyle with them anyway and don't have a very light buggy.




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Stunt Kites: GoFlyAKite Parastunter 1.4m | Pacific Quest Mighty Bug 0.5m and 1.0m | Prism Flip Kite
Arcs: Peter Lynn Venom 19m
Depower Foils: Flysurfer Peak 12m, Peter Lynn Lynx (2015) 5m, 9m
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[*] posted on 6-28-2016 at 05:37 AM


What do must guys use for tires at Wildwood Beach Buggy? Barrow or Midi Tires?

What is preferred for riding in grass fields?
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[*] posted on 6-28-2016 at 06:14 AM


WW you will see every type tire being run... i wouldnt even say one over any other
the big bugs got big tires but plenty of barrows too




US-31...Cquad set/ 2.6 Viper/ 2.9m Reactor/ 3.3 Buster/ 3.5m Lobster Foil/ 3.5m Bullet/ 4m Buster/ 4m RMSD 2 line Special/ 4m Ikon dp/ 4.9m Blade/ 5.6 Twister/ 6.6m Blade/ 7.3 Frenzy/ 7.5 Apex/ 9m Fuel/ 13m Pulse/ Phantom I 9,12,15,18/ MBS Core 8&16/ Flexboard Haise/ 2 Flexibugs/ PL Comp XR/ PL Big Foot
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[*] posted on 6-28-2016 at 11:04 AM


I ran barrows for couple of years, but the move to midis makes it a little easier when I get into the loose stuff at the top of the beach.



Go ahead... tell me to "go fly a kite!" Please!

Howard KC67 NAPKA District #12 Representative
Fly: A quiver of Lynx' and Cores and a Rev to remind me about control (did someone say "Pansh"?)
Ride: PL XR+ with BigKid AQR
Where: 43.857899, -78.941661 and 38.970951, -74.828922
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[*] posted on 6-29-2016 at 05:10 AM


Anyone familiar with buggy seat options. What are the options before I sign my mother up to making one for me(She has an upholstery sewing machine and loves to sew)?
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[*] posted on 6-29-2016 at 07:14 AM


Can anyone confirm that the spacer length is correct. I do not have a PL Rim to measure the distance between the inside of the bearings.

Both options, I think need some type of spacer or washer between the bolt or nut to not pinch the bearing seal. But it looks like the PL and Flexi buggies don't have anything.

Option 1:


Option 2:
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[*] posted on 6-29-2016 at 09:23 AM


I don't think a washer is needed there.

If you weld the stub axle in, replacement will be difficult and could ruin a buggy outing or trip if the stub axle got bent.

If you use the bolt method, it would be better to also use a jam nut between the wheel and main axle.




Coastal Wind Sports Team Rider
Landsegler Disc wheels
PTW Hero Buggy - XXtreme ApeXX Buggy US 88 - Libre Hardcore
IvanpahBuggyExpo.com
Youtube link
Bob Muse
HQ Montana VIII 8m, HQ Ignition LEI 5m, HQ Prodigy 3.4m, 10.5
PL Phantom 12m, 15m, Big Blu 24m+, Synergy 10m, Venom 13m , Phantom II 6m, Vapors 2.7, 3.2, 3.8, 4.5, 5.4, Crosskite Sonic 7m
Uturn Butane 2.5m PKD Buster 3m Genetrix Hydra 7m Ozone Yakuza GT 14m
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OffAxis


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Registered: 2-23-2016
Location: Central PA
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[*] posted on 6-29-2016 at 10:21 AM


How often do 20mm bolts get bent? 20mm is a pretty hefty shaft to be bending especially at such a short distance. I would think that there is a higher change of bending the axle tube where the seat rails connect.

Theoretically, according to the manufacture and my engineering training, the bearing requires some type of shim with a maximum diameter of 26mm to prevent anything from clamping down on the seal. This applies to either case, bolt or stub shaft scenario illustrated above. I understand that you can get away with out it but technically it's not the correct usage. Can anyone confirm that PL or Flexi does not use a shim?

I disagree with the jam nut being required in the illustration of the bolt example above. When the bolt is tightened it clamps the inner races, spacer and axle insert together. If the spacer is the correct length, there will be no preload on the bearings allowing them to rotate freely. This only works if the spacer is the correct length. The Bolt would be torqued to a proper torques spec provides enough elastic elongation of the bolt to prevent it from coming loose. If the spacer is to short, the inner races will be squeezed together and pinch the ball bearings.

If I was to nitpick anything about the current PL and Flexi buggies, it would be the use of radial ball bearings. Due to all of the axial loading that the kite puts on the bearings, the correct bearing to use would be an angular contact roller bearing, taper roller bearing, etc.


If I had these parts in my hand and could look at them to see if they will work, I would be able to answer some of these questions. But since I haven't purchased anything yet, I have to go fishing is the sea of experience that the PKF contains.
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WELDNGOD


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[*] posted on 6-29-2016 at 10:51 AM


;) You are waaaayyyyy overthinking this. Sideloading isn't an issue.If you get pulled sideways too hard , you just sideslip a bit. And in10 yrs.,I haven't heard of a bearing causing a wheel to come off.




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