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Author: Subject: OffAxis Oblique Buggy Build
OffAxis


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thumbup.gif posted on 6-11-2016 at 05:33 AM
OffAxis Oblique Buggy Build


I've been getting the itch to join you awesome folks at WBB and should probably get my self a buggy before that event. As I researched my options, I can't believe how expensive a simple buggy chassis is. So I've started working on designing my own kite buggy and want to get input before I dive into fabrication. Admittedly, it is a clone of the PL Classic buggy that I found on popeyethewelder's site. I need all of your experiences to help me make this into a nice affordable starter buggy.

My goals for the buggy are as follows:

Keep cost down: I think I can fabricate something sweet for less then they can be purchased
Sturdy frame but not crazy heavy and overbuilt: I'll use tubing sizes that are available in my areas.
Stainless or Steel: Probably steel to start, but will price out stainless option for comparison.
Seat: Find a seat that fits or make my own.
Other things: hitch plate to attach a second buggy, make a ski option for winter time, other hard mount points for accessories, splash guard option, seat belt option.

Ultimately I would like to make this buggy available to the community as a dependable budget buggy allowing more people to get into kite by bringing down the barrier to entry. The plans and info will be open source. If there is enough interest I could make the buggy available for sale. I envision that they could be sold either DIY weld kit or finished product.

Things on my list to do:
Finalize the frame shape design
Design front spindle and fork
Design rear axle inserts
Build a BOM
Source tires and rim options
Get quotes for all parts from local metal shops
Get pricing for everything else
Build first buggy
Test it out at WBB!!!
Kite Buggy!
Design Skis for winter

Current Frame Tubing Sizes:
Rear Axle: 1-1/2" x .083" X 37.5"
Rear Axle Sockets: 1-1/4" x .083" x 5" qty. 2
Rear Axle Threaded Inserts: Custom 20mm threaded inserts similiar to 1.5"x.120" x 3/4"-16 Threaded Insert
Rear Bearing Spacer: 21.25mm ID X 25.75OD X 47mm Long
Wheel Bearing: 6204-2RS Precision Sealed Bearing 20mmID x 47mmOD x 14mm Wide
Rear Axle Bolt: M20x120mm with Theads to match axle insert
Seat Side Frame: 1" x .083"/.120" x 35" Left and Right
Down Tube: 1-3/8" x .083" x 20"
Clamps halves: Flat Laser cut plate
Front Spindle" TBD
Rear

Tires: Barrow Wheels or Midis. I'm probably going with Midi. Don't use steel barrow rims. Purchase the proper PeterLynn Plastic rims, they are not that expensive and work great.

Let me know what you think!





I love my local hardware store:







PL Venom II 16m, HQ Apex III 7.5m, Pansh Flux 2m & 4m
MBS Sol 16 ATB, Kite Trike
Blake - US35

With much blessing comes great responsibility.

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OffAxis


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[*] posted on 6-11-2016 at 05:35 AM


Reserved for updates.


Can someone explain how to attached pictures to the forum. I'm slightly confused why it won't let me attach more then one photo.
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[*] posted on 6-11-2016 at 05:35 AM


Reserved for updates.
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[*] posted on 6-11-2016 at 06:23 AM


Copy and paste image URL in your comments from an outside photo site. Flicker, photo bucket, etc.



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ssayre




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[*] posted on 6-11-2016 at 07:16 AM


good luck on your build. something I've always wanted to do but have never gotten around to it.
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[*] posted on 6-11-2016 at 09:12 AM


Good idea to post as community buggy, but in reality, once you get the materials priced out and account for your time, mistakes etc., you are likely going to come out close to what a new buggy will cost, and although they are not common, a used one will come in cheaper. Plans can also be found at popeye's site, as well. Cost of entry into this sport, though vexing, is a good thing, really. It forces you to be thoughtful about how you spend your initial $'s getting in, and makes most of us go slow in our purchases. Well, once your credit card is maxed out!:o



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[*] posted on 6-11-2016 at 09:17 AM


I've bought 3 used bugs(barely) 2CL...350$ was the most...it's a timing thing




US-31...Cquad set/ 2.6 Viper/ 2.9m Reactor/ 3.3 Buster/ 3.5m Lobster Foil/ 3.5m Bullet/ 4m Buster/ 4m RMSD 2 line Special/ 4m Ikon dp/ 4.9m Blade/ 5.6 Twister/ 6.6m Blade/ 7.3 Frenzy/ 7.5 Apex/ 9m Fuel/ 13m Pulse/ Phantom I 9,12,15,18/ MBS Core 8&16/ Flexboard Haise/ 2 Flexibugs/ PL Comp XR/ PL Big Foot
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[*] posted on 6-11-2016 at 12:03 PM


I suggest you try and contact Van.

He had the same aspirations as you do + the equipment to build right. Even made custom seats. After a few years he has put the project to the side. He will be a wealth of knowledge and possibly give you some insight into the value of your efforts.

I am not anti home build. The whole home build movement pushed buggy design forward when it was in a big stall. As mentioned if you shop around you are likely to find a used buggy at lower cost than the combined parts in about the same amount of time. Especially if you are looking for a standard model like Peter Lynn or Flexi. Here are some buggies that would get you going cheap as an example. http://www.powerkiteforum.com/viewthread.php?tid=32086




Kites: 2.5m Profoil , 4.9m QuadrifoilXL kitesurfer, 9m Flexi Blade II, NPW 5 Danger.
Flysurfer : 19m Speed 2 SA, 7m Pulse
Peter Lynn :18m Phantom, 15m Synergy, 10m Synergy, 1200 Farc, 460 Sarc, 130 Tarc, 5m Peel, 4.2m , 6.4, 8.5 C-Quads

Rides: Flexi / P.L. Frankin'Buggy , Shaped + straight skiis, sand skis, Coyote blades. Core 95 ATB. RKB R2 ATB .

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[*] posted on 6-11-2016 at 05:21 PM


OffAxis, Every so often a newbee pops up here going to build his own buggy, harness and even homemade kites.

Those of us that are firmly entrenched in the sport/hobby at one time, have had those same thoughts but thought it was a better decision to bite the bullet and buy ready made gear.

We made that decision because of safety, time restraints, material access, proper tools, a most of all to get out and start flying and riding as soon as possible.

You need to really research the used market and stay on it till you get quivered up. There's a lot of equipment out there for sale. Work it every day and you'll find most everything you need sitting in your arm chair and not sweatin your ass off in the garage making bad welds.

All sports/hobbys have an entry point. It always $'s & cents. Many sports have a much higher entry than kite buggy. Drag racing, dirt track, skiing, motocross, para gliding, sky diving, etc..... Would you want to make your own parachute to sky dive?

The used market as posted earlier, is a matter of timing and tenancy. Your investment in used beginner equipment when ready to sell most likely will get your money back if you decide to move up and grow your quiver or get out.

Most of us that have made the investment in our sport had to save up $'s. We had a good idea what we needed, a good idea what we might have to spend and then started shopping at that time for equipment that was on the market. Several of us also made payments on a certain piece of gear and paid it off, got it and then the fun started.

Popeye is a master welder/fabricator, has letters behind his name, a professional. Yeah, he makes it look easy because he's very very very good!!!!!! I would not try to do what he does if I were you.

A lot of smart people have spent a lot of time, energy and resources to figure out the designs of equipment that work for our sport and then manufactured it. Buy it rather that build it!

JMHO




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[*] posted on 6-11-2016 at 08:56 PM


You never know when a buggy will pop up:
https://m.facebook.com/groups/126278344388/permalink/1015375...




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[*] posted on 6-11-2016 at 09:20 PM


What cheeks said.
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[*] posted on 6-11-2016 at 11:57 PM


OffAxis:
I think you should do what ever makes you happy. These guys telling you to stick to what's out there are tools selling you a line of BS! If you have the skills to make your own buggy. Then more power to you brother. But they're not wrong you can take the easy way and just buy some over priced hunk of #@%$#!. If you want a good buggy like a Libre, pick a model. Your going to pay out the ass and you're probably going to have to wait for someone to die for one to even come available. Sure you can scour Craigslist and the forums everyday waiting for that right buggy to come along like the rest of them did because they either lack the skills or they're just to lazy to do it themselves. I too am in the process of making my own buggy. I have been an industrial engineer/mechanic my entire life. Stuff like this is what I do everyday. I'm a licensed engineer, certified welder, licensed boilermaker, shall I continue...my point is fabricating something as simple as a kite buggy is child's play. You just need to make sure you get your geometry right. Things like Rake and trail, weight distribution. Sure it's easier to go buy you #@%$#!. But then your just like the rest of them. If you have the skills to do it then there is no greater satisfaction then being out there riding a buggy that you built yourself. Popeye a MASTER? His geometry is all wrong. Have you ever riddin one of his bugs? Based on your statements I'd guess no. Neither have I. But I have looked at his plans and his bugs and I'm willing to bet they're not well balanced. Math doesn't lie. I normally don't get involved in the forum drama. But I can't in good conscience standby and watch these people try to squash your ambition. If you have questions feel free to U2U me. As for the rest of you...I say shame on you.




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[*] posted on 6-12-2016 at 03:23 AM


Wow...well their you go, guess I was wrong...avoid the drama?



US-31...Cquad set/ 2.6 Viper/ 2.9m Reactor/ 3.3 Buster/ 3.5m Lobster Foil/ 3.5m Bullet/ 4m Buster/ 4m RMSD 2 line Special/ 4m Ikon dp/ 4.9m Blade/ 5.6 Twister/ 6.6m Blade/ 7.3 Frenzy/ 7.5 Apex/ 9m Fuel/ 13m Pulse/ Phantom I 9,12,15,18/ MBS Core 8&16/ Flexboard Haise/ 2 Flexibugs/ PL Comp XR/ PL Big Foot
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[*] posted on 6-12-2016 at 06:28 AM


blitzhound, no one here is against someone building their own buggy, but the reality is you don't save any money by building one. I think they were just pointing that out.
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[*] posted on 6-12-2016 at 06:44 AM


Quote: Originally posted by ssayre  
blitzhound, no one here is against someone building their own buggy, but the reality is you don't save any money by building one. I think they were just pointing that out.

Having now built 5 you are dead right. It is only that you have a buggy that meets your needs exactly (or can be further modified to do so) Get a kick out of riding something you have designed and built yourself. The time taken to build them easily exceeds the purchase cost of a production model if you took labour costs into account.
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[*] posted on 6-12-2016 at 10:16 AM


Well this wasn't quite to feedback I was expecting. Regardless, I'm still interested in features or designs of buggies that you guys like. Also it was mentioned that weight distribution, rake and trail are important. Any input on those parameters?
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[*] posted on 6-12-2016 at 10:24 AM


Blitzhound,

I think you are missing the points being made and reading them as instruction.
1st off, I hold Popeye and a few others up as the folks who took buggy design and building to new levels. I think if you knew the man, had a chance to see and try his stuff you might treat Him with more respect. He never claimed to be the last word on anything. Last I heard He was riding an Apexx extreme.

OffAxis is talking about taking this even further and building for the community. If you had been around the community longer you may know some of the history. I referred Him to Van who came in and did exactly what He is talking about. The experience soured for Him, Popeye and others. He really is better off talking to somebody like Van who has been through exactly what OffAxis is after.

OffAxis isn't talking about building a Race type buggy. He is looking to clone a Peter Lynn buggy that you can buy used, complete RIGHT NOW for only $125 . As mentioned in my 1st post, I am not anti home build. I do however think that if you are going to all that cost and trouble you should try and build something more than a Peter Thin clone! Van already has designs and was putting out great kits to upgrade PL. HE can give this guy real insight.




Kites: 2.5m Profoil , 4.9m QuadrifoilXL kitesurfer, 9m Flexi Blade II, NPW 5 Danger.
Flysurfer : 19m Speed 2 SA, 7m Pulse
Peter Lynn :18m Phantom, 15m Synergy, 10m Synergy, 1200 Farc, 460 Sarc, 130 Tarc, 5m Peel, 4.2m , 6.4, 8.5 C-Quads

Rides: Flexi / P.L. Frankin'Buggy , Shaped + straight skiis, sand skis, Coyote blades. Core 95 ATB. RKB R2 ATB .

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[*] posted on 6-12-2016 at 11:47 AM


Quote: Originally posted by OffAxis  
Well this wasn't quite to feedback I was expecting. Regardless, I'm still interested in features or designs of buggies that you guys like. Also it was mentioned that weight distribution, rake and trail are important. Any input on those parameters?


I can't help on those, but I'd definitely recommend talking to Popeye/looking up his stuff, as he experimented a lot on those.

One point to keep in mind for designing will be planned wheels/tires and compatibility for them. I own a Sysmic S2 and it's the generation before they redesigned the front to fit a proper large wheel (either tall disc or balloon for the beach). These can also have some affect on the steering and affects from the other. I have two extra sets of wheels for mine currently, a set of midis (it came with), a set of smaller motorcycle wheels that I can run all 3 wheels on for lower traction since my usual surfaces I don't sink in on (and were picked up cheap, for when I don't want to deal with handling issue from the last), and lastly a set of wheels just for the back that are super light motorcycle wheels that are extra tall. Reason for those is I wanted easy extra ride height for the easiest to get to field, so I could keep my seat low slung, without the occasional hitting bottom on the rough grass spots/transitions for where I get out most. I can't fit the same size wheel in front, so it handles a bit differently different size wheels (significantly) for the front and two rears.

I'm excited to see where this goes. I was planning on welding up my own buggy and trying out a few ideas, not sure how much I'd save over a used one, but I enjoy fabricating and the experience would be worthwhile, but then I moved rental houses, and none of the outlets in my garage will support my welder (they all trip, despite claiming to be their own 20 amp service and my welder not drawing that much), so I bought a used one here, which will probably last a lifetime, and the build will wait until I decide I want a dedicated freestyle or my wife wants her own and not just the adjustments I made to mine for her to fit.




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[*] posted on 6-13-2016 at 08:16 AM


@OffAxis here is a source for various wheels. http://gokartsusa.com/Gokart-Wheels-Minibike-Tires-Parts.asp...
The 8" aluminum tri-star or spinner will fit the typical 4.80/4.00 - 8 barrow tires.
This type came on a used buggy I recently purchased so it is how I learned of these.
This is a better choice than the typical steel lawn barrow wheel because you can fit proper sealed bearings.

BTW the $125 buggys have been sold locally.




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[*] posted on 6-13-2016 at 10:16 AM


Is there a problem with steel wheel barrow rims? Is it just a weight issue?
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[*] posted on 6-13-2016 at 10:36 AM


I think the bearings are poor quality and may have some wobble, and could also break down at high speed, but I have not tested them.
Also not sure they could handle side loads of a kite buggy well.
Just observation from handling the ones on garden equipment.




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[*] posted on 6-13-2016 at 10:44 AM


Taper bearings would take the axial loading much better then a standard ball bearing. But I think this bearing should be fine: http://www.bmikarts.com/Flanged-High-Speed-Wheel-Bearing-34-...

I also think it is the same bearing hanging on the shelf at the hardware store:


It should fit into the hubs of those steel rims.
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[*] posted on 6-13-2016 at 10:49 AM


Oh I just saw your pictures link. Seems your shop has a lot of options. If there is a way to use sealed bearings in any of the wheels I would try for that, especially if you plan to ride in beach areas.
They can be found fairly cheap on eBay, just spec the outer diameter, inner diameter and width.
I just ordered some of these for some used peter lynn wheels I bought.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/381654993188




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[*] posted on 6-13-2016 at 10:57 AM


I'm beginning to find that i cannot find a precision sealed ball bearing with a 3/4"ID and 1-3/8"OD. See the note found in this product listing: http://www.azusaparts.com/ProductPage.aspx?catID=8&subCa...

If I reduce the axle shaft size to 5/8" it opens up options to having premium seals bearings with 1-3/8"OD.


This is the only one I could find in the 3/4"x1-3/8" sealed bearing size.

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[*] posted on 6-13-2016 at 11:26 AM


yeah I think the 1-3/8 is 35mm which makes it tight for a 20mm ID.
Lots of options for 5/8
Note original PL Buggies used a 12mm bolt, then went to 15mm, then to 20mm.
5/8 is just a tad over 15mm so that may be fine.




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[*] posted on 6-13-2016 at 12:04 PM


For simplicity, I think i'm going with all imperial hardware. So my axles will be either 5/8" or 3/4"

In other notes: A rear axle tube of 1.5" x .083"wall will deflect some where between 3/16" and 1/4" under a 600lb static load. So that should be plenty strong. The weld joint for the seat frame should be the first location of failure on the rear end.
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[*] posted on 6-13-2016 at 01:26 PM


When I built my buggies ,I went with 1-3/8x5/8. Then I upgraded wheels ,and they were 20mm ID. So along came the 20mmx5/8" flanged adapters. I think I got them from Kent @ AWOC. Works a charm!



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[*] posted on 6-13-2016 at 01:30 PM


Yeah, here it is... http://www.awindofchange.com/product/20mmwheeladaptors.html I ran a 5/8" bit through each one .




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Mood: Serious Buggy withdraws!

[*] posted on 6-13-2016 at 05:38 PM


I say go for the build, if you are of tall stature, make it a little bigger so you will be comfortable. I built my second buggy, and I used schedule 40 tubing for my forks and side rails, I used 1x3 stock hollow stock for my swan neck and even got a friend to build a dual tuned aluminum rear axle with braces. (Less than $200 in material cost) it held up me for 8 years and it is now being used by another rider currently and he's still having a blast. I used cheap PL plastic rims ($25 ea) with Nanco tires ($33 ea) and made the whole thing so it could be taken apart in just a few minutes with tractor supply spring clips ($4 ea)

Popeye used to have diagrams of angles and such to help people along and for a while was even selling his plans for buggies at a decent price.

It was a great experience for me to build my buggy, even my seat, thanks to the wife, and I got a pleasure riding it every time I sat in it.






Rich
NAPKA President
US 66
www.napka.org

302 480 6008

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[*] posted on 6-13-2016 at 07:04 PM


I'm beginning to find that it is extremely difficult to find plastic rims similar to the PL Rims but with a imperial bore. I'm wondering if I should go straight to 20mm axles and just suck it up and use the PL wheels and bearings. Price wise I think it is a wash between the steel wheelbarrow rims vs the PL rims.

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