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Author: Subject: General Born-Kite discussion.
Ed Cline


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[*] posted on 5-20-2019 at 05:52 PM


It's easier with longer lines.
20m on this clip



I was carrying the mail that day, but no speedometer.




Flying mostly single skins, with some orphans, and a PL buggy. US01
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[*] posted on 5-21-2019 at 04:22 AM


Think I should try 25 M lines at this spot?





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Ed Cline


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[*] posted on 5-21-2019 at 05:06 AM


Not in that runway. You'll definitely need much longer lines. With the brightly colored kite you'll probably still be able to see it up there. Maybe Big Kid has an extra set of 220's?

In the field at Dorothea which you visited, I'm using 30's now. It makes for a smaller field to be sure. It's kinda weird to fly over the tree line, but when you drop into a more usual angle the wind goes away.




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[*] posted on 5-21-2019 at 05:25 AM


I've wondered how that location works with all the trees up there. At my fairgrounds location I've gone up to 25 M lines, but it is still not above the tree line all the time - in part because of the slope of the site. I guess I could just add more lines (and I've got plenty) but for longer lines I prefer my g-kites (single skin foil) over my NPW's anyway.



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Windstruck


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[*] posted on 6-6-2019 at 06:16 AM


An interesting bar and 3-line setup for NS2-4s called the bungee bar. It has been a long time since I've buggied with an NS kite in a FB 3-line configuration, but this setup might be useful if you find yourself buggying with a bit too much kite in the air.






Born-Kites:
RaceStar+ (3.0m, 5.0m, 7.0m, 9.0m, 11.0m, 14.0m)
RaceStar (9.0m, 11.0m)
NasaStar-4 (2.5m, 4.0m, 5.5m, 7.0m)
NasaStar-3 (custom 3.2m)

Buggy:
Peter Lynn BigFoot+ nose & tail; midsection VTT rail & seat kit; home-brewed AQR

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[*] posted on 6-6-2019 at 01:32 PM


Yet another interesting idea. Looks pretty simple. I'm not quite sure why the line wouldn't just unwind in the "scroll depower" he shows.

While we are at it, it seems there is a StreetStar2 with a new pulley/harness depower system.


http://www.born-kite.de/product_info.php?info=p310_trapez-pu...








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Windstruck


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[*] posted on 6-6-2019 at 02:00 PM


Quote: Originally posted by Randy  
Yet another interesting idea. Looks pretty simple. I'm not quite sure why the line wouldn't just unwind in the "scroll depower" he shows.

While we are at it, it seems there is a StreetStar2 with a new pulley/harness depower system.


http://www.born-kite.de/product_info.php?info=p310_trapez-pu...








I wondered too why it wouldn't simply unwind. Maybe it is purposely a little sticky...

I had seen that he had recently upgraded the StreetStar with the BODAPAR lines and some further refinements. I don't have personal use for these street kites so I had done the unusual thing (for me) of not posting about it. I fly his kites exclusively and like them but it's not as if I'm sponsored or anything like that.

Now that I've converted to DP I actually get a little spooked flying FB in the buggy. No real power throttle like you get with DP. I suppose his perma-DP setting with this new bungee-bar might ease that a bit, but it has been my experience on the wide open playa of Ivanpah that I don't care for how NasaStars behave with their noses scrunched. Yes, they generate less power so in that way they are "depowered", but I've also found that such a deformation makes them fall way back in the wind window and create even more side pull than they already do which is considerable as-is IMHO. The RaceStars and RS+ kites sit distinctly farther forward in the window than the NasaStars so the pull is more comfortable in the buggy when you are going for long, long laps on the playa. I doubt this would be an issue in comparatively smaller areas like soccer fields, etc., but when your tack line goes on for miles and miles any little things that bug you or make you uncomfortable sort of magnify and where the kite sits in the window is one of those things.

Yes, I know, a true 1st World problem!

Bottom line, I love that Steffan continues to innovate and I'm here to support him for that. Sits with me like buying at a local coffee shop versus Starbucks.




Born-Kites:
RaceStar+ (3.0m, 5.0m, 7.0m, 9.0m, 11.0m, 14.0m)
RaceStar (9.0m, 11.0m)
NasaStar-4 (2.5m, 4.0m, 5.5m, 7.0m)
NasaStar-3 (custom 3.2m)

Buggy:
Peter Lynn BigFoot+ nose & tail; midsection VTT rail & seat kit; home-brewed AQR

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Randy


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[*] posted on 6-6-2019 at 03:39 PM


I'm thinking now the scrolling method probably works because the 3rd line doesn't normally have that much tension on it. The 2 main lines are carrying the load. I'm wondering also if his NS bridling may have evolved enough so that the problems you mention are now mitigated. Might be worth trying with your new NS4 even if just while flying static. For my NS2's I've never seen much value in the depower function (though I have never tried bridle mods based on PrussiS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s posts.) Maybe in NS4 it is now better.

The Street Star innovation seems like it might work pretty well.




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Windstruck


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[*] posted on 6-6-2019 at 06:05 PM


Quote: Originally posted by Randy  
I'm thinking now the scrolling method probably works because the 3rd line doesn't normally have that much tension on it. The 2 main lines are carrying the load. I'm wondering also if his NS bridling may have evolved enough so that the problems you mention are now mitigated. Might be worth trying with your new NS4 even if just while flying static. For my NS2's I've never seen much value in the depower function (though I have never tried bridle mods based on PrussiS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s posts.) Maybe in NS4 it is now better.

The Street Star innovation seems like it might work pretty well.


Good points. I will say that when I was bugging with NS3s "back in the day" that I used the 3rd line as a safety from time to time that worked well. Now I really only use my NS4 with 4 lines, handles, and split z-bridles. My "third" line is coiled up and secured to the nose with its little yellow retention loop.




Born-Kites:
RaceStar+ (3.0m, 5.0m, 7.0m, 9.0m, 11.0m, 14.0m)
RaceStar (9.0m, 11.0m)
NasaStar-4 (2.5m, 4.0m, 5.5m, 7.0m)
NasaStar-3 (custom 3.2m)

Buggy:
Peter Lynn BigFoot+ nose & tail; midsection VTT rail & seat kit; home-brewed AQR

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Ed Cline


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[*] posted on 6-29-2019 at 05:03 AM


One way to turn a large Nasa. Nora is only 12.? so she's the the low end for the bar.
You have to try to learn.





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Ed Cline


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[*] posted on 7-3-2019 at 02:39 PM


So I had a chance to test the Dutch Flying Object 7m against the Nasa Star 4 7m.
Not very often do I get wind steady enough for a length of time to get two kites up under the same conditions. This day it was 8 mph from the NW. Straight down the field for a perpendicular run across the field. No hill.

Here is an comparison without controlled conditions, no control subject, and pilot with questionable credential.

The Nasa Star is faster in the air. The profile of the Born kite is flatter than the DFO.
I think it's flatter in general tha the NS3. This is more apparent on the larger sizes, of course it would be. The DFO is very adjustable, the Born kite needed no adjustment. For me this is great, some might prefer to tweak according to need. I just need it to fly well without adjustment. :)

This has to be a first look comment, cause I just don't have the skill to objectively look at all the right parameters. The Born 7m is the latest model, the DFO hasn't evolved to I guess it's the current model also. ;)

The Born kite does not fly well over water, It took way more than a month to get here from DE.
Now that I have it though it flys faster across the field which is more important to this comment.

I flew the DFO first and it was kicking. I think it knew it was about to be judged, and was on its best behavior. I had it adjusted to fly as forward as possible with little regard for the pull. I returned the adjustments to center, and flew it for about 2 miles. No complaints.
I meant to do a mile for each kite, but you know......I was having fun so it went 2 miles

Next the Born. I needed to adjust the new kite to my bar...Wait a minute, no I didn't.
I used the bar set up for the NS3 5.5m and it was spot on.
Isn't consistency wonderful. The DFO kite requires more throw in the bar and has its own bar, so I used the shorter bar for the NS4 test. I was happy to find that the shorter bar was every bit as responsive as the longer bar I used on the DFO.

I like the idea of a shorter bar doing the same work as one 5cm longer.
So how did it turn out? Here it is 2miles for the DFO, 1 mile for the NS4.
Then it rained on me and I quit for the day.






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[*] posted on 7-3-2019 at 05:51 PM


Interesting work Ed. Keep us informed if you do any more tests.



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Windstruck


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[*] posted on 7-4-2019 at 07:09 AM


Thanks for the write up Ed about the DFO vs NS4. Interesting. I've never seen a DFO in the flesh. In the build up to launch of the 4th Gen NS, Steffen did a FB posting about them being flatter in the sky than their predecessors. I'm wondering if by "flatter" that somehow translates to more projected area and thus more grunt per square meter of kite? I don't know enough about kite design to fully understand the trade offs as one "flattens" a kite via different bridling schemes.

My experience with the 4th Gen has been limited to static flying on handles of the 2.5m NS4. As you were saying, it seemed to "come out of the bag" strung evenly and was well controlled and predictable in the sky. I love these simple workhorses.




Born-Kites:
RaceStar+ (3.0m, 5.0m, 7.0m, 9.0m, 11.0m, 14.0m)
RaceStar (9.0m, 11.0m)
NasaStar-4 (2.5m, 4.0m, 5.5m, 7.0m)
NasaStar-3 (custom 3.2m)

Buggy:
Peter Lynn BigFoot+ nose & tail; midsection VTT rail & seat kit; home-brewed AQR

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Ed Cline


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[*] posted on 7-5-2019 at 04:03 AM


Funny Steve, when you called the NS4 simple workhorse I got triggered a little.
Think I have a little patriotism left over from the 4th of July Speech. All fired up.

Born did a great job with this thing though. I have used his NS3 and it performs better for me than the way they talk about it on the forum as being simple and kind of a compromise.

Being an interested amateur at control line power kites doesn't qualify me to argue with the prevailing wisdom. Having only an inland field at my disposal that thinks it's a mix master blender makes it impossible to stretch any kites legs properly. But the field is what it is and my kites need to respond to what .i have.wind wise. No racing kite for ed.

If the other sizes fly as well as the 7m I'll be thrilled. The real contest is between Steve's old 5.5 NS3 and the new one. That 5.5 3 model is one of the special ones.

I feel good enough about the new model to commit to 3 new bars and offer Born my intention to purchase the larger sizes as they become available.

Goals have to match conditions if you can't change the conditions, so my goal is to be able to out buggy anyone on this kind of field no matter what kite they are using. I believe The NS4 is my weapon of choice. :thumbup:

Edit. I just read what I wrote. Full compliment, no reservations, no buts or ifs. I strongly approve of this kite.
On the one hand my next order might ship faster, on the other hand I may have increased pricing on the large kites when they appear. :lol:




Flying mostly single skins, with some orphans, and a PL buggy. US01
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Windstruck


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[*] posted on 7-5-2019 at 06:54 AM


Quote: Originally posted by Ed Cline  
Funny Steve, when you called the NS4 simple workhorse I got triggered a little.
Think I have a little patriotism left over from the 4th of July Speech. All fired up.



"Simple workhorse" - in my book a high compliment. All of the function, none of the frills.




Born-Kites:
RaceStar+ (3.0m, 5.0m, 7.0m, 9.0m, 11.0m, 14.0m)
RaceStar (9.0m, 11.0m)
NasaStar-4 (2.5m, 4.0m, 5.5m, 7.0m)
NasaStar-3 (custom 3.2m)

Buggy:
Peter Lynn BigFoot+ nose & tail; midsection VTT rail & seat kit; home-brewed AQR

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Ed Cline


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[*] posted on 7-5-2019 at 08:47 AM


Hate speech! We want reparations! :moon:





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[*] posted on 7-5-2019 at 02:35 PM


Quote: Originally posted by Ed Cline  
Hate speech! We want reparations! :moon:



Glad to see that little postage stamp in good hands. Nice addition with the strap. Fly on! :cool:




Born-Kites:
RaceStar+ (3.0m, 5.0m, 7.0m, 9.0m, 11.0m, 14.0m)
RaceStar (9.0m, 11.0m)
NasaStar-4 (2.5m, 4.0m, 5.5m, 7.0m)
NasaStar-3 (custom 3.2m)

Buggy:
Peter Lynn BigFoot+ nose & tail; midsection VTT rail & seat kit; home-brewed AQR

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Ed Cline


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[*] posted on 7-5-2019 at 03:00 PM


You know all the big brothers had a strap, and the little one wants to be all grown up.

It hasn't flown yet in NC. I did shorten the leaders some.
We could have saved on shipping if it was cleaned. I think we were almost at the point where I could have claimed "land ownership" in Utah.
Thanks for combining the bridles.
I will love it and feed it, and care for it, and pet, it and call it Hurricane.

Members who aren't me or Windstruck, Mr Steve consented to transfer his little 1.5m NS3.
One of these days I'll figure how to bless him back. :D







Flying mostly single skins, with some orphans, and a PL buggy. US01
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Windstruck


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[*] posted on 7-5-2019 at 04:58 PM


Quote: Originally posted by Ed Cline  
You know all the big brothers had a strap, and the little one wants to be all grown up.

It hasn't flown yet in NC. I did shorten the leaders some.
We could have saved on shipping if it was cleaned. I think we were almost at the point where I could have claimed "land ownership" in Utah.
Thanks for combining the bridles.
I will love it and feed it, and care for it, and pet, it and call it Hurricane.

Members who aren't me or Windstruck, Mr Steve consented to transfer his little 1.5m NS3.
One of these days I'll figure how to bless him back. :D


What your got Ed at no extra charge with "Hurricane" was genuine Ivanpah Playa dust. Accept no imitations! Every year people travel from as far away as Israel to coat their kites with this precious, dare we say, magic element. I simply didn't have the heart to rinse it off, especially after hearing you sniffle and wimper about not being able to get to any of the Eastern or Western organized power kiting events. I thought I'd bring a little of the IBX love to you! Your welcome. :saint:




Born-Kites:
RaceStar+ (3.0m, 5.0m, 7.0m, 9.0m, 11.0m, 14.0m)
RaceStar (9.0m, 11.0m)
NasaStar-4 (2.5m, 4.0m, 5.5m, 7.0m)
NasaStar-3 (custom 3.2m)

Buggy:
Peter Lynn BigFoot+ nose & tail; midsection VTT rail & seat kit; home-brewed AQR

NAPKA Member US2815
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Ed Cline


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[*] posted on 7-6-2019 at 03:36 AM


Thanks for the sample. How could you know I collect dirt?
Most of my terrestrial samples are shatter cones but I do have dirt.
These i are the oldest samples. One from Spain and the other is german.
Iridium KT or Kpg if you're young.

Thing is I'm going to need a bigger sample so next time send a bigger kite :D





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[*] posted on 1-8-2020 at 08:17 AM


just in from Born Kite


temp file hosting

the link with more Kerstin
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdDNYTYA34w




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[*] posted on 3-5-2020 at 05:00 PM


In the past few months I've been revisiting the Born NS2 depower scheme. I've never really used as anything but a kite killer partly due to lack of a convenient way to use it. I tried my DIY version of the new ideas shown on Born's videos using the 2 handle method and the "bungee bar". Both seem to work, though the 2 handle method is a little difficult to get used to after using conventional handles and brake turns for a long time. Also the issue of backstalls and reverse launches remained.

Here's my latest idea. I've converted my NS2 to 4 line and put it together with a single line handle ala Paraski. I added a cleat to lock in the depower and used my Paraski type harness/quick release. I'm pretty happy so far with the way it works. It addresses of the issues with flying these kites on a bar including a quick was to depower/repower; counter backstalls and reverse launch.

Of course, it is limited to short lines, though that's usually all I fly these days for a lot of reasons. I think this could be used with a 2 handle system with a little more innovating.





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[*] posted on 3-5-2020 at 09:19 PM


Good work.

I see you're using the panic snap as your quick release.. which is also used for the Paraski Flex harness system. A very inexpensive manual quick release, that works quite well.

Keep on reinventing...!
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[*] posted on 4-2-2020 at 07:08 AM


This just in: 8.5m NS4 now available for shipment from Born. I'm not in the market for this large a fixed bridle but I do own the 2.5, 4.0, 5.5, and 7.0m NS4s and can confidently attest that they are a nice evolutionary step beyond the earlier models.

https://www.facebook.com/210093376111888/posts/9140130957199...


[img][/img]




Born-Kites:
RaceStar+ (3.0m, 5.0m, 7.0m, 9.0m, 11.0m, 14.0m)
RaceStar (9.0m, 11.0m)
NasaStar-4 (2.5m, 4.0m, 5.5m, 7.0m)
NasaStar-3 (custom 3.2m)

Buggy:
Peter Lynn BigFoot+ nose & tail; midsection VTT rail & seat kit; home-brewed AQR

NAPKA Member US2815
SWATK Member UT0003
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[*] posted on 8-26-2020 at 07:56 AM


Got one of these on order! I'm excited to put my NS4s to work again in the buggy. They are so unbelievably calming after working my RS+ kites. This looks like a great DP solution. Whupp! :D






Born-Kites:
RaceStar+ (3.0m, 5.0m, 7.0m, 9.0m, 11.0m, 14.0m)
RaceStar (9.0m, 11.0m)
NasaStar-4 (2.5m, 4.0m, 5.5m, 7.0m)
NasaStar-3 (custom 3.2m)

Buggy:
Peter Lynn BigFoot+ nose & tail; midsection VTT rail & seat kit; home-brewed AQR

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[*] posted on 8-26-2020 at 09:14 AM


Does look like a really good setup and probably easier to use than the one with the bungee cords.

Have you found that the NS-4 Stars are more de-powerable than the earlier versions? I've got 5.5 NS2's and have gotten into using the DP with it lately. I don't seem to get that much DP, but it is useful in taking the edge off enough to avoid just killing the kite.




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[*] posted on 8-26-2020 at 10:48 AM


Quote: Originally posted by Randy  
Does look like a really good setup and probably easier to use than the one with the bungee cords.

Have you found that the NS-4 Stars are more de-powerable than the earlier versions? I've got 5.5 NS2's and have gotten into using the DP with it lately. I don't seem to get that much DP, but it is useful in taking the edge off enough to avoid just killing the kite.


It has been years since I've flown my NS kites (of either 3rd or 4th gen variety) using three lines and a bar as I've had them set up with z-bridles for four-line handled flying, most of which have been static.

Memory serves that when using them in the buggy that scrunching the nose sort of depowers the kite, but it does so by making them crappier flyers and certainly not by affecting AOA in any way as you typically think about with a pulley-rigged DP kite.

Buggy riding on a long run on the Ivanpah playa I remember that scrunching the nose decreased the kite's pull at the price of dropping it further and further back in the wind window. Too much scrunch and the kite flew so poorly that it dropped too far back. There is probably some sort of equilibrium point you could reach, but I'll have to test all that. Hope to do just so at IBX2021!




Born-Kites:
RaceStar+ (3.0m, 5.0m, 7.0m, 9.0m, 11.0m, 14.0m)
RaceStar (9.0m, 11.0m)
NasaStar-4 (2.5m, 4.0m, 5.5m, 7.0m)
NasaStar-3 (custom 3.2m)

Buggy:
Peter Lynn BigFoot+ nose & tail; midsection VTT rail & seat kit; home-brewed AQR

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[*] posted on 8-26-2020 at 11:24 AM


I ended up using what amount to a single bar turned vertical rather than horizonal with the brake at the bottom of the bar and the power at the top. The two power lines connect at the top of the bar (usually with a leader of 1m or so) and the two brake connect at the bottom of the bar (also with a leader line.)

I control the nose scrunch with a 3 rd line and a cleat. This is basically a paraski control system and only works with short lines. The advantage is that when the nose is scrunched I can back off on the brake tension and eliminate dropping back into the window. Basically the same idea as PrussiS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s 5 line control, but with short lines you don't need two bars. I was pretty happy with the way it works, though the amount of DP you get is still limited. I use much bigger kites now - 5.5 is now about the smallest I go, and I've gone to 8m with my NPW 21. With short lines you control the power mostly through the window placement, which is much quicker than when the kite is on 80 m lines. In theory losing a lot by using short lines, but in practice in the janky field where I ride, I spend a lot more time launching and relaunching the kite with long lines. With short lines it only takes a second to relaunch most of the time.




NPW Test Pilot -US99
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