| Pages:
1
2 |
GR
Posts: 3
Registered: 7-8-2004
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood.
|
|
Twisted lines (kiting's dirty little secret?) - Tips for putting away your lines
Does anyone really head out to fly with no tangles when they set up? How can it be done?.
I've done searches on this subject and have tried a lot of different methods of wraping up my lines but ALWAYS have tangles and twist when I head out
again. The only method I haven't tried is just to stuff them back into the bag (parachute method) which has worked for some I hear. To scared to try
it yet.
Anyone?
|
|
|
doomwheels
Posts: 565
Registered: 2-14-2003
Member Is Offline
Mood: Slap happy!
|
|
If you let off the lines from your handles in a similar manner that you put them on, you should have no more than a twist or two, and no tangles.
When finished flying, I put my handles together, hold the handles in my left hand and start wrapping all the lines together around the tops of the
handles with my right hand all the way up to the kite. I put a securing loop or 2 around the handles (optional) then fold up the kite with the handles
inside. I use one set of lines for each kite therefore never disconnecting the lines from the kite or handles.
Next time I fly, I unfold the kite picking up the handles, undo the securing loop (optional), and holding the handles in the same way as mentioned
above, I allow the lines to come off from the tops of the handles as I walk upwind to my flying position. From there I can shake out the kite and lift
it into the air.
Nevers:
*Never unroll lines by holding the lines and allowing the handles to spin on the ground.
*Never let out the lines into a pile on the ground.
*Never let off the line from the opposite end of the handles from which you put them on.
Always:
*Always let lines off the handles in the same manner you put them on.
*Always let out your lines while walking the distance between your kite and your flying position.
*If you find a tangle, keep things loose! A tangle is usually a series of loops. Keeping it loose will prevent it from becoming a knot.
Hope this helps!
|
|
|
Scoopy
Posts: 404
Registered: 3-12-2004
Location: West Virginia
Member Is Offline
Mood: Always Good
|
|
Check out
www.racekites.com
go down the page and read the ultimate newbie guide. There is plenty of information and pictures of parapacking. This is the only way I have found
to do this quicly and easily.
Scoop
|
|
|
MboardX
Posts: 9
Registered: 5-5-2003
Member Is Offline
Mood: Kite ATB Rocks!
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by Scoopy
Check out... |
Ugh... instead of asking forum readers to exit this site and then click through no less than 12 pages on another site in search of an answer, why not
just post a good thoughtful answer here and help build the PKF data pool. I believe others would appreciate this too.
Or at least direct links to the article you are referring to:
http://www.racekites.com/howto/howto_11.asp
http://www.racekites.com/howto/howto_12.asp
Regarding "parapacking" your kite lines... I wouldn't recommend this to a beginner. I agree with the first responder, if you wind up
your lines altogether on a card or the tips of the handles and then unwind them the same way, the possibility of twists or tangles is minimal.
|
|
|
Scoopy
Posts: 404
Registered: 3-12-2004
Location: West Virginia
Member Is Offline
Mood: Always Good
|
|
The reason I sent them somewhere else is because it is the best description of parapacking I have seen anywhere. I cant compete with words what you
can see in picutures.
As for parapacking, its the only way to pack your kite. Unless you want to get it out without flying (to show someone or something) this is the best
way. I have tried everything in the book. Winding on handles, winding on a big winder, taking lines off, just about everything, even chaining the
lines. Parapacking works the best. Its quick, easy, and produces no tangles if done correctly.
Scoop
|
|
|
gilligan
Posts: 215
Registered: 6-22-2003
Location: Oakland, CA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Cynical optimism
|
|
"parapacking"
I'd have to say after packing my kite and lines every which way and having disasters with all of them, parapacking has been the most wonderful
thing to ever happen to me. I've only had one minor snafu out of about 100 packings... AND the kite is in the air about 1 minute after I get to
the site. I say don't knock it 'til you've tried it!
|
|
|
GR
Posts: 3
Registered: 7-8-2004
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood.
|
|
Thanks gang for taking the time to respond back,lots of good info! Scoop, great link to the pics on "parapacking" and other useful
information there! (heck, no big deal to me to open another browser window and page around, I'm just happy to have the link)
My twisted line fate has been worse lately trying out the different methods but you have to try!
Sure bet so far is just wrapping the lines on each seperate handle, takes a bit longer but worth it in my case right now.
I will give parapacking a go for sure and will report back...it's just a set of kite lines right?
GR
|
|
|
gilligan
Posts: 215
Registered: 6-22-2003
Location: Oakland, CA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Cynical optimism
|
|
You'll love it... just remember to guide the line (keep it taut) with one hand while you shove handfuls of line in with the other hand. I've
found it's best to carry the kite in the bag back to the stakes and pack it there... good luck mate!
|
|
|
TangledStrings
Posts: 40
Registered: 4-8-2004
Location: Petaluma, California
Member Is Offline
Mood: Naturaly High
|
|
Iv'e seen my buddy parapaking, it just does not look like it's safe. Stuffing your lines into the bag, with no order. How do they not
tangle. I daisy change my lines, with no prob's yet. The kite is up and away fast, and pack up is no different then another style, time wise.
|
|
|
bondcw
Posts: 54
Registered: 8-4-2004
Location: Somerset
Member Is Offline
Mood: Waitin' for wind
|
|
I always pack my lines as follows:
Land kite and secure it (using a mate lying on it works a treat )
Hold both handles together and wind all four lines around top/bottom of the handles
After a couple of wraps go figure-of-eight round the top and bottom of the handles
When you get to the kite handles in the middle and fold up before packing into the bag
Reverse this for unpacking - kite flying in no time
|
|
|
Hardy_uk
Posts: 10
Registered: 8-9-2004
Location: Kent
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood.
|
|
For me the secret behind untangles lines is remembering where you hold the handles whilst wrapping them up....
If your right handed (reverse if left handed), join the handles together, wack the kite killers around them, then hold the left handle in your left
hand, and wrap the lines figure of 8 styleee, when you come to unwrap them, grab hold of the handle in the same way, left handle left hand and unwrap
them.
Works a treat for me, most nights I have the kite up within seconds of unwrapping the lines. only nights its not up in seconds is when the wind is a
little crazy!
Enjoy.
|
|
|
teklife
Posts: 57
Registered: 4-8-2004
Location: new york, NY
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood.
|
|
parapacking bad???
doomwheels wrote:
"Nevers:
*Never stuff lines into a bag parachute method. "
hey doom, i think you are a very knowledgeable kite flier here, so i'd like to know why you list this method of packing/unpacking lines as a
"never".
i have been flying kites for not too long and never had tangles, but that's because i would always wind the lines the way they came wound on the
little butterfly winder thing in a figure eight, but that was with my 2 line stunt kite; i would always take the lines off the kite, so it was just
(2)lines and handles(straps, actually) on the winder.
now, with my 4 line foil kite, it's just too much to have to match up and tie the lines to the kite every time, so i have tried to wind them onto
the provided winder while the lines are still attached to both the kite and the handles to keep things neat, but it was just a hassle.
after having seen the parapacking tutorial on the prokites site, it seemed that would be the most convenient way to pack & unpack my lines, so i
tried it and had no problems, it was a breeze and nothing seemed the slightest bit twisted.
however, i am new to the sport and it may have been only one time that i've used this method. they are packed away in the bag right now and
awaiting my second unpacking, so, you see, although it seems like a great way to pack & unpack your kite, i don't have enough experience with
it to know for sure, but i'd love to hear your reasons why never to do it that way; i would like to care for my kite & strings in the best
way possible. thanks
reverend mykl
|
|
|
Scoopy
Posts: 404
Registered: 3-12-2004
Location: West Virginia
Member Is Offline
Mood: Always Good
|
|
Parapacking is the best. One hint though, remeber which handle goes on top when staked, and how you hold the bag, and how you pack the kite. That
way when you unpack, you wont even have to untwist the lines at all. I have my own little system of how everything is done, and it works great. Very
rarely do I even have to put one handle over or through another.
Scoop
|
|
|
doomwheels
Posts: 565
Registered: 2-14-2003
Member Is Offline
Mood: Slap happy!
|
|
| Quote: | | Originally posted by teklife... i'd like to know why you list this method of packing/unpacking lines as a "never"...
|
I should know to never say never, but in the case of my first post, I was making a recommendation to a
newbie who was already experiencing trouble putting away lines. That in mind, I would not recommend stuffing (parapacking).
I'm sure for some, this is a great method that works every time. Or at least nearly every time and that is why I caution beginners who have less
experience with what it is that creates tangles. In most cases tangles are not knots but loops or a series of loops with one or more being tighter
than the other loops within. If stuffing works as planned, it's great. But if one loop of line stuffed randomly into the bag pulls tight around
other loops, it can cause a choking mess of tangled spaghetti that your fat Italian mama would be proud of for sure. Even that is not the end of the
world if the pilot has experience with tangles, but it could mean spending a frustrating afternoon detangling for beginners.
So, before I unwittingly start an impassioned forum debate about the superiority of parapacking, I will clearly state that personally I have nothing
against it for those who use it successfully. I have tried it and don't see much trouble short of a handle slipping through the other while
transporting your gear or the above stated loop choke prob. As I said, not the end of the world for some, but could be big problems for beginners.
However, risk is not the reason I choose never to stuff. My reason, simply put, is that SIMPLE WORKS BEST. I have flown kites of all sorts and forms
for over 20 years and have never had tangles in my lines resulting from winding or unwinding directly onto the handles or straps. I used to joke that
I was just too lazy to use those spiffy card winders, but as it turns out simple is also faster.
When I finish flying (quad in this case), I land the kite, put my handles together in just the same way I had been holding them while flying, pull all
4 lines together to 1 point in the middle of the handle pads, and then start wrapping them around the pads (top of handles) with my right hand as I
hold the handles together with my left and walk at nearly full pace toward the kite. When I arrive at the kite, I put a securing wrap between the
handles to prevent them from rolling off while packed, fold the kite placing the handles in the middle fold before putting it in the bag.
When I set up to fly next time, I take the kite out of the bag and spread it out, undo the securing wraps and hold the handles in my left hand. I grab
the free lines with my right hand to keep tension on the kite and prevent the lines from coming off too fast. With the handles in my left hand, tops
pointing at my right hand, I turn away from the kite and walk upwind at full pace allowing the line to flow off the handles between my hands until I
reach the ends, turn around, separate the handles and launch the kite.
That sounds more complicated than it is, but writing it down is more difficult than doing (or showing) it. To help clarify my instructions, I posted
the following pics. Please excuse the dark, hastily made images but it's raining today and could only find a moment to take away from work.
img 1 - wrapping up the lines
img 2 - folding up the kite and handles
img 3 - letting out the lines
img 4 - anatomy of a tangle
Here are the advantages:Fast - I start winding the moment I stop flying. By the time a stuffer were to bring the kite and
handles to one point to start stuffing, I've already finished. Same is true with letting the line out.
Secure - no matter what happens during transportation, nothing can ever happen inside the bag to change the way the lines were set when you last
put them away.
Flexible - if you ever need to switch lines (or unbag your kite for whatever reason) you can take the kite out and disconnect the lines without
having to run out the entire length of your line set. That means you can perform maintenance to your kite even inside your house/apartment. I guess
that's good news for those who like to wash their kites in the tub <g>.
Simple - it doesn't matter which hands you use or which direction you wrap as long as you unwrap in the same manner. That's all!
Here's why some folks have had trouble with wrapping lines onto handles:
Imagine that each time you make a wrap of 2 or more lines around a handle you are twisting the lines once per wrap. If you allow the lines to come
right back off in the same manner, the lines are untwisted. But if you turn the handles around backward and then unwrap from the opposite end, you are
twisting the lines once again and will have twice as many twists. Simply stated... let it off in the same manner that you put it on and there can be
no problems. You know... "wax on, wax off"!
This is just my opinion based on 2 decades of flying and my recommendation to people who are just getting a feel for kiting and their gear. Somewhere
down the line everyone finds a perfect system of their own. Stuffing is new and having merits of its own will be of good use for some.
I also recognize and appreciate the efforts of those on this forum who are stepping up to help others who are fresh to kite sports. Its all good
stuff! Thanks.
|
|
|
teklife
Posts: 57
Registered: 4-8-2004
Location: new york, NY
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood.
|
|
wow, this is excellent. you should keep this as a sticky, 411, part of an FAQ perhaps; for [newbie] reference.
i have been parapacking, but i think i'll do it your way. you're right, it is faster, and there are other advantages.
thanks doomwheels, you are an indispensable part of the power kite and speed community.
rock on
mykl
|
|
|
bondcw
Posts: 54
Registered: 8-4-2004
Location: Somerset
Member Is Offline
Mood: Waitin' for wind
|
|
Next time out I think I'll give it a go. Might even take out 2 kites and try doom's method for one and my figure-of-eight for another and
see which one unpacks quickest/easiest.
Tried parapacking and spent too long sorting out the mess - guess it just isn't going to work for me!
|
|
|
kchunks
Posts: 44
Registered: 5-26-2004
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
Member Is Offline
Mood: If I complained I would be out of line.
|
|
Doomwheels, just a clarification on letting the lines back out. Do you just let the lines"fall" off of the tops of the handles and then go
through your right hand, or are you trying to prevent them from sliding off and force them to unwind with your left hand?
|
|
|
doomwheels
Posts: 565
Registered: 2-14-2003
Member Is Offline
Mood: Slap happy!
|
|
Hold the handles in your left hand, point the handle tops toward your right hand (both hands more or less in front of your chest) and allow the lines
to uncoil while using a slight circular motion with the left hand.
Remember, you are walking upwind facing away from the kite.
The right hand regulates the tension so that the lines don't come off too fast.
Imagine that you could do the same thing by walking backward pointing the handle tips at the kite and allowing the lines to uncoil as you walked. The
problem is you have no control over the speed that the lines uncoil this way and if you walked too fast or previously would the lines too tight or too
loose, something would likely go wrong. This is the purpose of turning away from the kite and using the right hand to regulate tension and speed.
|
|
|
Lack-O-Slack
Posts: 168
Registered: 1-5-2004
Location: Vista, Californica
Member Is Offline
Mood: Domestically blissful...
|
|
Parapacking vs. winding vs. "Hawaiian" daisy-chain
Greets, tanglers and fuzzmeisters!
I've been folding up my kites and using the "Hawaiian" daisy-chain method for some years now, with nary a tangle. I learned it from
Mike Walden, back when Mike was managing BFK Sports in Vegas, way back before the turn of the century.
This method involves walking to the kite upon landing, folding it neatly, gathering all four lines and bridles together and tying them in a large,
simple overhand knot, then placing the folded kite in the bag.
Next, one grabs a loop of the four flying lines in one hand, and another loop in the other, and then "walks" back to the kite,
hand-over-hand, pulling line through each loop to form the next loop, and forming a "daisychain" from the lines.
When about 3 feet from the handles, place the two loops together, tie them in a simple, overhand knot. Then, grab the handles, loosely coil the
diasy-chained lines, and stuff all in the bag.
One walk to the kite, slow return to the handles while "weaving" the daisy-chain, and, best of all, instant deployment at the next flying
time.
Simply pull handles from bag, place on ground stake, undo the simple overhand knot at the handles, and toss the bag in a high arc, downwind. The line
will feed out and unravel from the chain, and when the tossed bag reaches the end of the line, it slaps down on the playa. Walk to kite, undo the
overhand knot at the bridles, spread the kite out, and voila! You're ready to launch.
It takes practice to get this all down, but I've found it well worth it.
HOWEVER: When it's ballistic outside, or dark, or I've had three too many safety meetings, I always fall back to doomwheels'
method... wind 'em up and stuff 'em.
They both work well, and that brings me to the BEST choice for YOU... whatever works, whatever you'll use consistently, and whatever you feel
most comfortable with, is the best solution for you.
I'm waiting for someone to come up with something really unusual and slick, then I'll adopt another method. The trick is to spend some time
just watching some of the characters you're buggying with... heck, even Cobey Benson's got a few "new tricks" up his old-dog
sleeves! (But don't tell him I ever said so).
Mike \"Lack-O-Slack\" Dooley
\"Nothing is foolproof, to a sufficiently talented fool!\"
|
|
|
BizB
Posts: 6
Registered: 7-1-2004
Location: North Coast (Ohio)
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood.
|
|
I'm not sure I follow your description, L-o-S.
Are you talking about something similar to how they wrap rope for repelling?
|
|
|
bondcw
Posts: 54
Registered: 8-4-2004
Location: Somerset
Member Is Offline
Mood: Waitin' for wind
|
|
I have found just wrapping all four lines around the handles together as DoomWheels describes is the quickest way for me to pack/unpack my kites.
Thanks for the tip
|
|
|
kchunks
Posts: 44
Registered: 5-26-2004
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
Member Is Offline
Mood: If I complained I would be out of line.
|
|
BizB, your picture there is NOT a daisy chain. I don't know how to explain it very well. Tie an overhand knot, except don't pull it all of
the way through (I think they call this a slip knot. With your newly created adjustable loop, pull the slack through, but not the very end (another
slip knot). Do this over and over until the slack is taken up. What you have is a bunch of slip knots and all it will take when you're done is
a tug and they all come out. However, I have tried them all and I like Doom's method.
|
|
|
doomwheels
Posts: 565
Registered: 2-14-2003
Member Is Offline
Mood: Slap happy!
|
|
To BizB:
I did a quick search and found only a couple examples of daisy chains...
Here is a brief overview with sketchy illustrations:
http://tarlton.law.utexas.edu/dawson/articles/knot.htm
Here is an image using a single climbing rope:
http://biocomp.stanford.edu/people/joel/KnotImages/daisy.gif
This site does not allow direct linking, so you'll have to click the "knots" link from the nav menu:
http://www.virtualinks.com/index.htm
Perhaps a more intense search will provide better results. If you find something, please post it here.
I use a daisy chain for quad bridles only if I've detached the flying lines (which only happens if I sell or store a kite), but would not want to
spend so much time chaining my fly lines after each day of flying. However, it's great to hear all the different ideas... keep 'em coming!
|
|
|
BizB
Posts: 6
Registered: 7-1-2004
Location: North Coast (Ohio)
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood.
|
|
I bow to your google skills. Thanks for the links.
Here's how I do it:
Packing:I secure the brake lines and walk to the kite.I do a basic parapack fold of the kite.Then, with the kite
folded to about 12 inches wide, I roll it about half way (starting with the leading edge and rolling toward the trailing edge).I grab the bridle
lies and place them on the remaining unrolled part of the kite.I continue rollling up the kite so the bridle lines are neatly tucked inside.Then, I grab the 4 lines with my left hand and continue to roll the kite toward the handles... letting the lines wrap around the rolled up kite.Continue until you reach the handles/bar.Pick it up and stuff it in the bag Unpacking:Take it out of the bag.Stake the brake lines.Roll the kite away from you (usually have to guide it)When you get to the kite stop unrolling and return to the
handles.
If the kite isn't half way inflated by the time you get back to the handles, go home... there isn't enough wind.Pick up handles
and give a couple tugs.Say "Weeeee" as the kite climbs to the zenith and you run forward All of this assumes that you're
working in a dry area.
While I'm in the mood to type, here is a rather bloated video of my daughter doing a backflip, my son kite-skateboarding and myself with my 3.6
beamer on a moutainboard. You'll be best served to right click and save rather than streaming (14MB) (no mercy for the weak of bandwidth)
|
|
|
kchunks
Posts: 44
Registered: 5-26-2004
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
Member Is Offline
Mood: If I complained I would be out of line.
|
|
Say "Weeeee" as the kite climbs to the zenith and you run forward
That's why some days just haven't been so hot. I'll have to remember that one. :-)
|
|
|
boom
Posts: 19
Registered: 11-23-2005
Member Is Offline
|
|
Guys, this was a really helpful thread. I've been kiting now for about 1 1/2 years and kept having issues with the tangled lines. I tried lots of
things but never thought to parapack. I've had about 10 sessions since I read this and it's really changed things for the better for me. It now only
takes about 3 minutes to setup my foil whereas before the line tangles mandated a 20 minute period of frustration prior to flying. So thanks -
parapacking really works well for me!
|
|
|
roytheboy
Posts: 21
Registered: 3-2-2006
Member Is Offline
|
|
Doomwheels. Your way sounds well worth a try. One question. How do tie the securing loop.
|
|
|
doomwheels
Posts: 565
Registered: 2-14-2003
Member Is Offline
Mood: Slap happy!
|
|
>How do tie the securing loop.
Don't... when you've rolled the lines all the way up to the kite, place the handles on the partially folded kite and roll (or fold) it all up
together:
http://www.powerkiteforum.com/images/tutorials/packaway.jpg
More images here:
http://www.powerkiteforum.com/viewthread.php?tid=577#pid1535
If you really wanted, you could wind the lines once or twice between the two handles for security, but I don't bother.
Please, I don't take credit for this at all. This is how we've all done it since the beginning of quadline flying. Simple, fast and never a tangle. I
wind up as fast as I walk and unwind even faster.
|
|
|
roytheboy
Posts: 21
Registered: 3-2-2006
Member Is Offline
|
|
Brilliant! I have used the method Doomwheels suggested twice now and it is a piece of cake. Simple but effective. Thanks for the tip.
|
|
|
harry.allerston
Posts: 52
Registered: 8-15-2005
Member Is Offline
Mood: Rarin' to jump!
|
|
roll them around your handles and you cant go wrong!
|
|
|
| Pages:
1
2 |
![[*]](images/perspective/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
