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Author: Subject: Low wind kites for buggying.
Pablo




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[*] posted on 6-15-2019 at 11:13 AM
Low wind kites for buggying.


What are people using now days for the low end of the wind range. I get a lot of days in the 6-8mph range. I've just picked up a 10m RM+ to help out but wondering if I have to go bigger or if it's worth it to look at some of the large depowerable?

What is your go to?




Sysmic S1 Buggy.

0.7m / 1.4m / 2.0m PKD Buster I
4.4m PKD Buster
10m JoJo RM+

6m Flysurfer Outlaw
12m Ozone Access
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Windstruck


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[*] posted on 6-15-2019 at 01:19 PM


I've had quite good luck with my 11m Born-Kite RaceStar. Being single skin it can get off the ground with very little wind and can often stay up a long time even when the wind is too light to really provide traction. A few years ago I used to own the Flysurfer Peak2 12m. I named that kite Session Saver.

Beyond the single skins I've watched Slapbasswoody work his magic with barely a puff of wind with large Ozone Chronos kites. Anthony makes sweet music with his Flysurfer 21m Soul in little more than a whisper of wind. The rub with these big kites is $$$$$. I personally prefer a high AR kite in light wind to avoid the kite seeming like too much of a barge when turning.

For 6-8mph any of the kites I mentioned would serve you well and keep a smile on your face and tires spinning in your buggy.




Born-Kites:
RaceStar+ (3.0m, 5.0m, 7.0m, 9.0m, 11.0m, 14.0m)
RaceStar (9.0m, 11.0m)
NasaStar-4 (2.5m, 4.0m, 5.5m, 7.0m)
NasaStar-3 (custom 3.2m)

Buggy:
Peter Lynn BigFoot+ nose & tail; midsection VTT rail & seat kit; home-brewed AQR

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bigkid


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[*] posted on 6-16-2019 at 09:56 AM


I found the size of the kite is not the key although the bigger the kite the easier it is to fly in low winds.
My go to kite is a 12.5m and when the wind is 18mph it's at it peak. Please don't use this as a guide for your next kite. At 18mph the kite will fly on 18m lines and be way toooooo much for most flyers. At ZERO wind the same kite will be flown on 100m lines. I have not been unable to buggy in any place or wind condition with the 12.5.
I have buggies at alvord in 3 to 5mph wind with a 3m Beamer on 100m lines and had a blast.( it's too slow for my taste but worked nun the less.
I would think a 15.4m on 25m lines would be a great ride in low winds. Most of this response is with a lot of trial and error testing, it's nothing anyone can't learn.
6 to 8mph wind is more than enough for some great buggy time.




Appex buggy, Libre hardcore buggies.
Flexboardz. Blokarts.
PKD Century Soulflys. NPW's. Nasa Stars.
A few other less flown oddballs,
Line sets from 10" to 328" or 2m to 100m.
worlds only AQR that works.
North American distributor for PKD.
"Kite Bugging is not an addiction until you try to quit".
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Chook


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[*] posted on 6-16-2019 at 05:32 PM


I use an 18m ELF 7 or my 18m Ozone Chrono.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVKHtt-zY2Y

Pete in 1 knot of wind with gusts to 3 using my Elf.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XujKC5wqykM

The 18m is good up to 12 knots. My best is 72kmh on her.




Modified Sysmic S2 Buggys
7m R1
8m R1 2
11m R1
15m R1
15m Chrono 2
18m Chrono
18m ELF
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Pablo




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[*] posted on 6-16-2019 at 05:53 PM


Had the 10m RM+ out today, 25m lines, 9-10mph winds and she felt good, could hold more, but was teaching the kids how to kitebuggy. Still, if you dropped it into the window and let it run you'd pick up some decent speed. I'm guessing I could probably push it down to 6mph and still get an ok ride out of it.



Sysmic S1 Buggy.

0.7m / 1.4m / 2.0m PKD Buster I
4.4m PKD Buster
10m JoJo RM+

6m Flysurfer Outlaw
12m Ozone Access
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Bladerunner


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[*] posted on 6-17-2019 at 12:51 PM


I am extremely happy with my 19m Flysurfer Speed SA 2.5.

I think something like a 19m speed 3 Delux would be your best bang for the buck. They can be found very cheap and are designed to last.




Kites: 2.5m Profoil , Quadrifoil XL kitesurfer, NPW 5 Danger.
Flexifoil: 1.7m Sting, 4.9m Blade 3, 9m Blade 2.
Flysurfer : 19m Speed 2 SA, 7m Pulse
Peter Lynn :18m Phantom, 15m Synergy, 10m Synergy, 1200 Farc, 460 Sarc, 130 Tarc, 5m Peel, 4.2m , 6.4, 8.5 C-Quads, 3.5 LS2 single skin.

Rides: Flexi / P.L. Frankin'Buggy , Shaped + straight skiis, sand skis, Coyote blades. Core 95 ATB. RKB R2 ATB .

Ken (K2)
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soliver




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[*] posted on 6-17-2019 at 09:48 PM


I took ownership of Steve's session saver,... the 12m Peak 2 is a great low wind machine. I call it the gnat fart catcher... or the Jolly Green Giant



In real life, they call me Spencer

Flying-- HQ Symphony 2.1.4 (its old), 2.5m & 4m Born Kite NS2, 6m Flysurfer Peak 1 (a minty fresh Gift) and 12m Flysurfer Peak 2 (the gnat fart catcher).
Riding-- VTT Stinger XR Hybrid and an XR/VTT Frankenbuggy (Tandem).
Playing-- Silverangel #429 ... oh wait thats the other forum.
JWC-- Founding member and self appointed president.

PB: 30.5 mph

You can never cross the ocean unless you have the courage to lose sight of the shore, ...and also a boat with no holes in it.
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ColinW




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[*] posted on 6-18-2019 at 04:10 PM


I am waiting for Winddog or Utahtami to chime in here about the new single skin GIN Shaman... I think Feyd has some expeience with them also (review?)
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[*] posted on 6-18-2019 at 05:16 PM


I seldom try to buggy in light winds (<10 to 15) at home - I take the warm weather (lighter wind) months off and hit the water. At Jekyll I've found that as soon as my 5-7 M NPW's will fly (6-7mph?), I can ride my buggy. At home on grassy fields and erratic winds it's frustrating to say the least.




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skimtwashington




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[*] posted on 6-18-2019 at 07:09 PM


You mention 6-8mph range...

That 2mph more at top end of that low and short wind range makes a significant difference-I think....from my experience...

The lower the wind, and the bigger the kite gets.... the more each mph increase in wind speed is amplifying the previous power.

So...with a 2mph increase in wind speed at 25mph( going to 27mph) with a small kite, you may hardly notice much increased power.
... but a 2mph increase when winds are 6mph( going to 8 mph), you may notice a more significant increase in power with say, a large 10m FB kite(your Jojo RM+), enough to make that particular sized kite go from just getting you going, to a more moderate speed or faster cruise.

You think...:puzzled:

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Wind_dog


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[*] posted on 6-18-2019 at 09:53 PM


Hello,
My name is Rick.
I am a single skin addict.
My quiver is still evolving, but not as quickly or as some (Windstruck, are you listening).

I ride on beaches and inland playas.
Our beach winds are typically smooth, inland winds gusty/shifty.
Beaches are easy on kites, some playas very abrasive.

I lean towards conservative riding, that is, I use an AQR, I like kites with wide depower range,
I get nervous over 40mph++ ( but now more confident in my Libre buggy!!}

My Peak2 12m has been my low wind go to kite.
The Good: Flies in almost no wind and pulls like a tractor as the wind builds. More pull/sq meter than many others.
It has a huge depower range. Also very affordable.
The Bad: Bar pressure is heavy but in smooth beach winds the stopper ball cures that. It has lack luster upwind performance.
The Ugly: It flutters when depowered but that does not bother me. I come from sailing background and a luff is a luff.

I recently picked up a Gin Shaman2 6m because my dearly beloved Peak1 6m is getting frayed.(damn abrasive playas!)
The reviews are true. The Shaman2 is super sweet. Like the Peak1 but lower bar pressure, no flutter and goes upwind much better. Only bad - They don't sit well on the ground unlike the Ozone Explore.
So smitten that I picked up a 12m Shaman2 but have not flown it yet. It will probably be my beach low wind kite.
Lower bar pressure and better upwind ability being the main factors
Like UtahTami, mine will probably never see the playa because the kites are dear $$$$ and the playas harsh.
I'll feed my Peaks and Lynx to the playa or get in my Blokart and just eat tires.
YMMV.













Always on the steep part of the learning curve.
Gin Shaman2 6m, 12m
Flysurfer Peak1 6m, Peak2 9m
Misc. other kites, not getting out of their bags.
Riding in a Libre Fullrace with an AQR
And a Blokart when gust factor > 4.
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Windstruck


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[*] posted on 6-19-2019 at 06:28 AM


Quote: Originally posted by Wind_dog  


(Windstruck, are you listening)



:lol:

Yes Rick, I hear you... :saint:

Funny thing is, you and countless others here on PKF have benefited grandly from my impatience and impulsivity. Long live N+1!

I got a taste of the sweetness in the 3.0m RaceStar+ (compared to standard RaceStars) at IBX2019 and now I want an all RaceStar+ quiver! I'm holding off for a while as Steffen will no doubt come out with a RaceStar2+ at some point with continued refinements and I'll likely pull the trigger then. That means fine folks like you will someday have access to some RS sweetness at Windstruck "get 'em out the door" prices! Stuff dreams are made of... :duh:




Born-Kites:
RaceStar+ (3.0m, 5.0m, 7.0m, 9.0m, 11.0m, 14.0m)
RaceStar (9.0m, 11.0m)
NasaStar-4 (2.5m, 4.0m, 5.5m, 7.0m)
NasaStar-3 (custom 3.2m)

Buggy:
Peter Lynn BigFoot+ nose & tail; midsection VTT rail & seat kit; home-brewed AQR

NAPKA Member US2815
SWATK Member UT0003
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Demoknight


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[*] posted on 6-25-2019 at 06:56 AM


My only tried and true light wind kite is my 19m Speed 3 Deluxe. If you can feel the wind on your skin, there is enough to park and ride.



NAPKA US8008

Kites:

Flysurfer Speed 3 Deluxe 19m
Peter Lynn Charger 2 12m
Peter Lynn 2013 Reactor 5.5m
Peter Lynn 2013 Reactor 8.6m
Prism Tensor 5.0m

Ride:
Weird Beard VTT Custom
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Pablo




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[*] posted on 7-3-2019 at 07:13 PM


You are right, the 2mph range in the low end is significant, it can go from a kite flying but barely pulling you and not being a pleasant experience to moving along at a nice cruising pace, but most kites do have a range that they will work in if you are willing to push it a bit, the 10M RM+ seems to stay in the air nicely at 6mph, by 8mph it's starting to do it's thing nicely but I can hold onto it safely all the way up to 12mph or so before the sideways drag starts getting to be a problem. I did manage to pick up an old custom 15.4m Combat, I've gotten it out of the bag and flown it in 2-3mph and she does pull, I"ll probably put it up in 6mph or so to start buggying with it though. It's been a long while since I last kited with a freighter in the air. I am guessing by the way it flies static I can probably get a ride out of it in 3-4 if I was desperate enough. Time will tell.

Next piece of the puzzle will be to start filling in the gaps at the higher wind range. That is once the wife lets me back in the house.




Sysmic S1 Buggy.

0.7m / 1.4m / 2.0m PKD Buster I
4.4m PKD Buster
10m JoJo RM+

6m Flysurfer Outlaw
12m Ozone Access
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pbc




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[*] posted on 7-4-2019 at 07:21 AM


Quote: Originally posted by skimtwashington  
You mention 6-8mph range...

That 2mph more at top end of that low and short wind range makes a significant difference-I think....from my experience...

The lower the wind, and the bigger the kite gets.... the more each mph increase in wind speed is amplifying the previous power.

So...with a 2mph increase in wind speed at 25mph( going to 27mph) with a small kite, you may hardly notice much increased power.
... but a 2mph increase when winds are 6mph( going to 8 mph), you may notice a more significant increase in power with say, a large 10m FB kite(your Jojo RM+), enough to make that particular sized kite go from just getting you going, to a more moderate speed or faster cruise.

You think...:puzzled:



This is certainly true. Lift is proportional to the square the wind speed. So a 2mph increase in the sub-8mph wind range generates much more additional lift than it would than above 10 mph. Going from 6-8 mph gets you 78% more lift. Going from 10-12 gets you 44% more lift.

Low wind flying is very sensitive to wind speed.

I love this thread. My current gear limits my to flying 8 mph and up. That's not bad as I can usually get that, but there are days I miss having a 15M Arc. Yet the Arcs are too heavy for most light wind flying. I used to fly a 10m ultralight Peel in low wind. I could fly it on 2 mph and buggy at 4 mph with long lines so I know what I'm missing.




I fly: Charger II 6.5m * Charger II 8m * Charger II 10m * Scorpion 10 (for sale) * Phantom II 12m * F-Arc 1200 * Venom 13m

I ride: Peter Lynn XR+ on Midis * Flexifoil Midi/Barrow * Peter Lynn Comp on Barrows * Peter Lynn XR+ (needs a fork)

I build: Custom bars for buggy pilots

I write about kite stuff: at http://philipbchase.com

Philip Chase
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skimtwashington




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[*] posted on 7-5-2019 at 12:55 PM





Quote:

Next piece of the puzzle will be to start filling in the gaps at the higher wind range


You need a 3 meter....


...and a 6 meter...

Your 2 big kites are high aspect, but all your others are low aspect, I believe?


If you get steady winds you might want some high aspect of a few sizes in higher wind range also. Low aspect is nice for unsteady gusty higher winds, but high aspect cuts upwind much better.

..choices..:rolleyes:
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Pablo




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[*] posted on 7-6-2019 at 12:13 PM


Yeah, I had a full set of combats years ago as well as a set of Brooza's, Needed the cash so anything good got sold. I kept the small busters just so I would have something to fly static once in a while and they weren't worth much. Will keep them around for when friends want to try flying a kite.

I am thinking high aspect 5m and 7m and then something a little more friendly like a Brooza in the 3m, they just perform so well when in stupid high gusty wind. In the winter months I used to use my old 5.5m Brooza 90% of the time. It did me well and I"ve hit 40mph comfortably with it. Good luck finding one now though. I do think race kites all the way down with a mid aspect like the brooza on the bottom end would probably be the way to go this round.

Our usual summer wind is in the 7-10 mph range, come winter months it's only 10-15mph, couple stormy days hitting 20mph+


Next piece of the puzzle. Line lenghts, small kites are on 20m, usually run the 7-10m on 25m lines, but for the low end I had a set of 40m on my old 13m Century, seemed to really work good in almost nothing, put the kite way up into the clean wind, but you really felt the delay when you had to swing the kite from say hard left to hard right. By the time the 15m comes out it'll be the sort of day where your scratching for every bit of power you can get, what are you guys running for the big kites?

Then handles, short handles (12inch I think) on everything up to 6m, 16 inch handles on my 7.5m Brooza and 10m RM+. I have run the 15m with the 16 inch handles but it really felt like there wasn't enough throw on the brakes. I had them pretty snug, any tighter and it would hurt performance. Just not enough brake travel to really bring the kite around. I know them make longer handles but well, Kite buggy problems, I had a stupid long set on my old 13m and found they were hitting everything in sight in the buggy. Suffer with the mid lenght handles or are people still using the old pulley system on short handles on large kites?




Sysmic S1 Buggy.

0.7m / 1.4m / 2.0m PKD Buster I
4.4m PKD Buster
10m JoJo RM+

6m Flysurfer Outlaw
12m Ozone Access
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BeamerBob


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[*] posted on 7-6-2019 at 03:11 PM


I really scored when I bought my 14m Yakuza GT. That thing is a wall in wind that you can barely feel blowing. I used it to ride from Sunset Beach all the way to Seaside and back usually at around 28-30 mph. Custom color dark gray and orange too with not a patch of white anywhere.

I got to spend a few days with Big Blu at JIBE in May. It had loads of tire sliding power when the lightest riders were getting along with 12m kites. Very slow to turn but power was always on demand.




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PL Phantom 12m, 15m, Big Blu 24m+, Synergy 10m, Venom 10m, 13m , Phantom II 12m Vapors 3.8, 5.4, Crosskite Sonic 7m, PKD Combat 10.3m
Uturn Butane 2.5m PKD Buster 3m Genetrix Hydra 7m Ozone Yakuza GT 14m
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Blitzhound


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[*] posted on 7-7-2019 at 08:40 AM


My Low wind go to is a 16.5m PKD Inferno on 27m lines. I can get moving at around 4mph park and ride at 6mph and we are lit up at 8mph, i'm looking to put it away at 12mph. This kite is High AR. ultralight material. At the risk of being excommunicated. I Don't believe that Single Skins are the answer to low wind. Yes they will fly in almost zero wind but they don't really make USABLE power much if any sooner than a traditional foil. I think the high AR kites are more the answer. i.e. Chrono, R1, Speeds, Sonics, although i will say that even though i have never flown one. I could totally see the RaceStars being the best of both worlds. The down side to the high AR kites is as said before...COST. they are not cheap. So then the real question you have to ask yourself is. Is it worth the cost? here in the PNW the answer is yes. we tend to have alot of lightwind BIG kite days. Without a lite wind weapon in your arsenal your days of buggyin in the summer here are going to be rather limited.



NAPKA US541
HQ: Beamer V 5.0m, Montana M9 8m
Best: Bularoo 7m, Waroo 9m, 12m
PKD: Inferno 9m, 12m, 16.5m, Century Soulfly II 12.5m
Ozone: Blizzard 5m, 7m, 9m, 11m, 13m, Access 6m, Pure 6m, Chrono V2 7m, 13m
Buggies: MG Croozer, GT-Revolt
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