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Author: Subject: Wanna See My Woodie ?(ah landsalier that is)
oldben




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[*] posted on 5-2-2017 at 04:41 PM
Wanna See My Woodie ?(ah landsalier that is)


So while watching so many kite vids it was inevitable I would become intrigued with a landsailer. With all my $$ in kites the only way to get a LS was to fab one. After looking at a zillion pics and vids this is what I have so far. Its built in the same dimensions(more or less) as the Manta.

While I am an accomplished welder the cost of metal pushed me to use wood.
Pressure treat to be exact. Only because its hard pine and relatively cheap. The spine is a box beam with a 2 by axle beam, holding 3/4 axles mounted with 1250lb lifting eyes. Recycled mountain bike parts were used also.

Sail will be a poly sail(read tarp). I have made these in the past with excellent results. Will be version of skiff sail at around 44sq ft. Initally any way, the mast will be 1.5" emt with a welded extension to get the right height.
Steering was the trickiest part getting the geometry worked out. Its a cross over system. With a ton of taildragger time I have to have push right go right otherwise I would wind up in the bushes. Stole one of our patio chairs for a seat. The seat and position are really comfortable.

This is the rough out stage,ignore all the junk hardware and rough edges.

Constructive criticism welcome. What the heck do I know any way!

006.JPG - 69kB 005.JPG - 97kB 007.JPG - 102kB
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Windstruck


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[*] posted on 5-2-2017 at 05:52 PM


Quite an interesting project (not-so-old) Ben. My hat is off to you sir for even trying. Others can surely comment on structural integrity, etc. I question simply the cross-over steering lines. Seems a strange setup. Why not bring the lines straight?



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Born-Kite NASA Star-3 (1.5m, 2.5m, 3.2m, 4.0m; z-bridled for handle flying)

Buggy:
Peter Lynn Bigfoot+ modified with VTT rail & seat kit (a seriously great performance upgrade), two sets of Sysmic rims (one set with BigFoot slicks for the "beach" of the Great Salt Lake and the other with 6-ply trailer tires for the Ivanpah playa), and BigKidKites AQR (because it keeps me in the bug and in my marriage)

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[*] posted on 5-2-2017 at 06:04 PM


Here is an easier way to do it. Well tested. Sailed one last year at JIBE.



landsail2.jpg - 73kB


BTW - Unless you just like to build things, old windsurfing sails, masts and booms can be had very cheap, even if you do build the wooden parts of the "boat" itself.





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[*] posted on 5-2-2017 at 06:11 PM


Take a close look at my video in the IBX forum.

This may help you by seeing a home-built sailer that worked quite well.

I can send close up pics if you want to see specifics.

Paul

P.s. As for cheap masts and sails...I am buying two race sails and a mast tomorrow for $50. The last two sails I got for free. Windsurfer sails are beyond cheap.
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oldben




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[*] posted on 5-2-2017 at 07:25 PM


Thanks for the input everyone.

I have looked over the windsurf sails at least on ebay and they were pretty cheap. They were an unknown quantity so didnt
bite yet. What is a good size for general winds? I was thinking 5M? Not really looking to haul a$$ maybe 25 mph. Heck theres no brakes(yet)!
Am trying to get this thing up and running with what I have. I think I can bring it home for well under 200 bucks. There are sail databases for boats with basic patterns. You have to scale them down a bit. Trick is to cut them so they will camber into an airfoil shape. I like the challenge. A sail can be made in a few hours for the cost of a tarp and a bit of tape and rope. With care they last a good while.

Windstruck

The cables cross because as a pilot using rudder pedals that push in the direction desired has become instinctive. Right to right, left to left. When hooked up straight you push left to go right, etc. I understand the idea of pushing the left bar to the right to go right, but in a "situation" it wont happen.

Randy

That looks like a huge sail for a board!

JJ

Will check out your vid.

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oldben




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[*] posted on 5-2-2017 at 07:37 PM


Great vid JJ!

What a place to play!
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[*] posted on 5-3-2017 at 03:43 AM


Older Prototype







Flexi Rage 1.8 NASA Star 2.5, 4, 5.5, 10., 12.5.. DFO 7.04, PeakII 6. Quadrifoil Comp.4m. LS2 3.5m. PL bug. At least 200lbs. SLines.
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[*] posted on 5-3-2017 at 04:43 AM


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
in the old days packs of these "pirates" would take over Atlantic ave in Brooklyn...terrorizing pedestrians and motorists
great photo....nice woodie too!




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[*] posted on 5-3-2017 at 05:22 AM


oldben - the sail is 4.4 Sq. M. I've generally used something between 4-5 M on landboards. I tried bigger ones but they are just too awkward.



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jeepersjoey


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[*] posted on 5-3-2017 at 05:35 AM


My sail in the video is 4.6m.

Today, I am buying a 5.0m and 5.3m. He says they are race sails.

However, one of the land sailer guys at IBX said that my sail was to big. They also usually cut them down like you mention. They trim the bottom portion.

Paul
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Windstruck


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[*] posted on 5-3-2017 at 06:06 AM


I never considered pedal steering from an airplane pilot's perspective as I've never been one. A few years back (OK more than a few) I was a tricycle pilot and now I'm a buggy pilot and they both steer the same way. :D



Kites:
Born-Kite LongStar-2 (3.5m, 5.5m, 7.5m, 9.5m, 12.5m);
Born-Kite NASA Star-3 (1.5m, 2.5m, 3.2m, 4.0m; z-bridled for handle flying)

Buggy:
Peter Lynn Bigfoot+ modified with VTT rail & seat kit (a seriously great performance upgrade), two sets of Sysmic rims (one set with BigFoot slicks for the "beach" of the Great Salt Lake and the other with 6-ply trailer tires for the Ivanpah playa), and BigKidKites AQR (because it keeps me in the bug and in my marriage)

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oldben




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[*] posted on 5-3-2017 at 06:55 AM


Great pic Ed.

Theres a vid of a guy sailing his Sunfish down the road that he converted on to a wheeled carrier.
I also saw what looked like maybe a Catalina 22 sailing down the road on maybe a converted trailer?
Just too cool!

I have noticed there are different types of surf sails. How do you tell a race sail? Whats this one? I realize its a smaller sail but its reasonable on shipping. Also my mast wont flex(I hope) like the carbon masts. Wonder what that does to sail efficiency?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEIL-PRYDE-HI-WIND-4-2-WINDSURFING-S...

I can buy a very nicely made sail for a Sunflower boat for around $100 new but Im afraid it has too much area, around 59sq ft.
I should be able to get around 44sq ft from a $12 9x12 tarp allowing for edging it.
Now its a color choice, blue, silver, brown or green.. The best thing is to buy a sail kit from Polysail. Its white and is especially made for sails.
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[*] posted on 5-3-2017 at 06:55 AM


YABBA-DABBA-DOOO!
Who needs brakes when you can just put your feet down. WILMAAA!!!...

Quote: Originally posted by Windstruck  
I never considered pedal steering from an airplane pilot's perspective as I've never been one. A few years back (OK more than a few) I was a tricycle pilot and now I'm a buggy pilot and they both steer the same way. :D


I have some glider and single engine time, so I get the idea. After all, most all airplanes are tricycles when on the ground. But in the context of a sailing craft and a ground vehicle, (push right, go left, etc) I have always found the conventional trike configuration intuitive and never gave it a second thought until now.

I'm afraid that in such a cross-over rig, if facing a brown-trowser moment, my trike/ sailing instincts would kick in. Kind of like learning to drive in the UK on the other side of the road.

All this aside, I think it's a great cool, project. I love making things from wood and admire the rugged, rustic nostalgic flare of your rig. Love the frond fork and accompanying frame! Who sacrificed their bike for that? That looks like a pretty acute rake to the front fork, but rake-and-trail is a pretty spooky science and I do not claim to be an expert on that.

I hope you can bring it to JIBE. With a good east wind, you can drive it right down Rt. 17 from McIntosh County.




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oldben




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[*] posted on 5-3-2017 at 07:38 AM


Thanks for the kind comments AC!

A neighbor was throwing out a few old mountain bikes which were the donors. The front frame part is actually inverted to get a rake with a 26" front fork to allow the frame to sit level or nearly so.

I learned about rake and trail the hard way building a recumbent bike via the recycled recumbent method. It looked good but actually had negative trail. Was very unstable to ride. Once the trail was reset to around 4" positive as I remember it was a very pleasant ride. I just checked the trail, its positive 7" kinda chopperish. This will make higher speeds more stable with the loss of low speed handling(doesnt matter so much on 3 wheels). Probably take a country mile to turn around.

Funny you mention riding the roads. McIntosh is sparsely inhabited with many out back straight roads. There is not one traffic light in the whole county(that may change at I 95 soon)! I have located roads for different winds via Google maps. Some roads run straight for miles. Figure I will throw on a strobe and warning triangle and go for it. McIntonians are pretty tolerant folks and like eccentric behavior.

This should fit right in! Would love to bring it to Jibe if its finished.
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[*] posted on 5-3-2017 at 07:49 AM


Quote: Originally posted by oldben  
Great pic Ed.

Theres a vid of a guy sailing his Sunfish down the road that he converted on to a wheeled carrier.
I also saw what looked like maybe a Catalina 22 sailing down the road on maybe a converted trailer?
Just too cool!

I have noticed there are different types of surf sails. How do you tell a race sail? Whats this one? I realize its a smaller sail but its reasonable on shipping. Also my mast wont flex(I hope) like the carbon masts. Wonder what that does to sail efficiency?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEIL-PRYDE-HI-WIND-4-2-WINDSURFING-S...

I can buy a very nicely made sail for a Sunflower boat for around $100 new but Im afraid it has too much area, around 59sq ft.
I should be able to get around 44sq ft from a $12 9x12 tarp allowing for edging it.
Now its a color choice, blue, silver, brown or green.. The best thing is to buy a sail kit from Polysail. Its white and is especially made for sails.


Ben,

IMHO - the sail on ebay is worthless, even though it looks to be in good shape. It is probably at least 30 yeas old. I used a sail like that when I learned to windsurf back in 96 and it was way out of date then.(You could probably get one for free or close to it and if so it might work. I don't know much about land yacht sails though.) And you would need a mast and boom specific to that kind of sail. You'd probably be a lot better off building your own.

Windsurf sails require a lot of downhaul tension so they require masts that a quite strong and can bend a lot. The amount of downhaul needed and bend of masts changed over the over the years. The really old sails (vintage the ones in the picture 80's) required much more outhaul tension to get the proper shape and required a very long boom.

Race sails (for windsurfers) generally have a number of camber inducers (plastic parts that attach the mast) which put a fixed shape into the sail. They make the sail more rigid and able to hold its shape at higher speeds and higher upwind angles. I don't think you really need a race sail. Check with JimSSI or Angus, there may be some ex-windsurfers in the area with some old gear they would like to dump.





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oldben




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[*] posted on 5-3-2017 at 09:56 AM


Thanks for the insight Randy!

Will just build a poly sail for right now. Wont be real sophisticated, but should get it going.

If the sailer shows promise the whole thing will get fine tuned, and I can sort out sails then.
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[*] posted on 5-3-2017 at 05:06 PM


Cool project... hope to see it at JIBE!



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[*] posted on 5-4-2017 at 05:28 AM


A good source for sails if anyone wants to experiment.

http://www.curtissportconnection.com/Windsurfing_Sails_used_...
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[*] posted on 5-4-2017 at 04:50 PM


Here are a few pictures from the sandstorm at JIBE 2015. The blowkarts were among the few that actually were still running when the wind went crazy. Their sails do look like windsurfer sails of more or less late 20th century design. This type, rather than a purely soft sail might be the way to go. I've got one of these that has been given to 3 people for free and I have it now. If anyone wants it, I can bring it. It would need a mast and whatever method used for connecting it to the land yacht. It is about 4 Sq. M or about 40 sq, foot. I plan to bring my landsailor in the event the wind is offshore.



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smile.gif posted on 5-5-2017 at 01:23 PM


Hi Ben ...
That were nice built .

We don't have blokart here , but the other way around by make setup of landsail to existing buggy .
that have option to transform to landsail or kitebuggy .

now , more and more my kitting buddy converting their buggy to landsail here .
as what Randy say , it is the safe bet when the wind gone crazy and expecting a downpour .

i don't convert my buggy yet but expecting to do so near future .

this picture are landsail at my local spot . 2 picture with windsurfer sail are latest version ( note : they are on tight and close racing ) , while 1 is early version .

I guess this is what the insight so far . can't be sure effective enough to your landsail project , as the construction quite much different .


for sail , the windsurfer sail is the way to go , can't tell it racing sail or not , but please note it higher AR compare to the original low aspect . The low aspect sail have a lot of side pull easy to lift the wheel without make forward speed .

:)Race sails (for windsurfers) generally have a number of camber inducers (plastic parts that attach the mast) which put a fixed shape into the sail. They make the sail more rigid and able to hold its shape at higher speeds and higher upwind angles. I don't think you really need a race sail .

this camber inducers i could see it critical , to maintain the stiff and tight .otherwise it keep flapping and annoy to hear , and this sail will make un predictable sudden turn left or right while you tacking .

then we add the side brace from mast to rear axle to prevent overall chassis twisting and make it super stable .




FB_IMG_1493829027520.jpg - 152kB FB_IMG_1494006084039.jpg - 42kB

landsail latest version-1.jpg - 194kB




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[*] posted on 5-5-2017 at 02:04 PM


Yeah - windsurf sails work great on my landboard, though I think it takes more wind and is certainly more tiring than using a kite.

Here is a picture of the sail I will donate to the project. You would need a windsurf mast and a mast base though. The sail has a tear in the next to the top panel which I believe has been fixed very well, and is in a part of the sail that is not under much pressure.





photo(57).JPG - 132kB




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oldben




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[*] posted on 5-5-2017 at 04:19 PM


Thanks for all the pics and info yall!

Great link RTZ, bookmarked it for future madness, er ideas.

I had seen converted buggies and thought about doing mine but got off on a creative tangent. Not always a good thing!

Havent had much time to continue on the landsailer, was hoping to maybe get it to Jibe
but right now its looking doubtful.

Randy if you are wanting to give me the sail I would love to have it! Will give Woodie a good push Im sure, much better than anything I can make. That would be great!
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[*] posted on 5-5-2017 at 05:25 PM


Ok, I will bring it.



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[*] posted on 5-6-2017 at 02:09 AM



Here's something you might like, a recumbent bike with a sail system that's designed for roads:

http://whike.com/en/

I don't think they've sold many of them because of the price. There is a special connection that does something like unsheet the sail when you put on brakes.
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[*] posted on 5-6-2017 at 04:55 AM


On my landboard - pushing the sail away (sheeting out into the wind) is very effective braking. Seems to me that the problem with the Whike is that in most places there is not enough fetch to effectively use the sail, so it would not really be a cross country type of thing except in certain types of terrain. Also, the direction of the wind would be critical in terms of being able to ride on a road, though I guess you could pedal if you hit a stretch of road with a bad angle.



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[*] posted on 5-6-2017 at 05:46 AM


The Whike looks cool. They need some sail development though. The foot of the sail is doing very little with the cutout
the way they have it. I think they were aiming at fool-proof unskilled riders. No walk of shame for sure.




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oldben




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[*] posted on 5-6-2017 at 06:14 PM


There is an old saying amongst the homebuilt aircraft fraternity "Change one thing change it all"

Im now on Woodie Mk II.

Now has a new front end, the other one tracked perfectly(had an adventurous neighbor tow me) but would either require a dry lake bed or a 4 lane Hwy to turn around on. Of course I have to make new steering cables. Am going with the direct push left go right set up, hope I can remember. If yall see me sailing madly into the ocean Im not doing well with the change.

So have been busting my a$$ as well as my $$ to get this thing, myself, and the ole ball and chain to Jibe.

How can I get this to the beach?
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oldben




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[*] posted on 5-9-2017 at 08:25 AM


So had a great time and met a lot of nice folks Monday!

The onshore turned on around 2:50 for some great kiting and sailing. After a few tweeks Woodie and I sailed until around 5:30 when it was time to pack up. Im sure its crude by todays standards, but I like it. I will view it as "old school"(like me). Got a lot of positive comments from the beach crowd and Jibers in all of its raw beauty.

Randy gave me a windsurf sail. Many thanks Randy!
Now just have to save some $ for a mast then I will be sailing high tech.

There were only a few inches to spare on the ramp to the beach but it did fit, I was thinking it might have to be carried or rolled on two wheels.

Hope to be able to get back at least once later in the week for some kite flying.

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[*] posted on 5-9-2017 at 07:23 PM


Saw you riding Monday, you sure had that thing under control and it looked great!... hope you'll be back some more this week!!!



NAPKA US 593
In real life they call me "Spencer"

Flying-- Flysurfer: 6m Peak 1 (A Minty Fresh generous gift) & 12m Peak 2 (The gnat fart catcher)
Riding-- VTT Stinger-XR Hybrid & PL XR Frankenbuggy
Current PB-- 28.5 mph,... MAN THAT'S FAST!!!
JWC-- Founding member and self appointed president

Allow yourself to be moved by that which cannot be seen.

She blogs about scrapbooking,... what a nerd.
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oldben




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[*] posted on 5-10-2017 at 05:35 AM


Quote: Originally posted by soliver  
Saw you riding Monday, you sure had that thing under control and it looked great!... hope you'll be back some more this week!!!


Thanks!

I had a blast!

First time ever land sailing, wasnt too smooth at first but by the end of the day was getting it pretty good. The pulleys on the rigging were junk, so finally just removed them and ran the rope thru the eye bolts. Will move to proper sailboat rigging, and that should have it.

Now for a proper paint job!
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