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Bladerunner


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[*] posted on 4-6-2017 at 03:56 PM


You Fly Fixed bridle kites with the front ( FLY ) lines to the outside of the bar for effective turning. FB kites are essentially 2 line kites with brakes. You can only finesse the brakes with handles. A crossover adds some input but no finesse. The only acceptation I know of is the Turbo bar. From what I here not all kites accept the Turbo bar.

You Fly depower kites with the front ( Power ) lines to the center of your bar so you can trim the kite. You sort of turn it doing brake turns but it's not as simple as that.

You seem stuck on trying to turn fixed bridle kites into depower kites. Without re-working the bridle + adding pulleys you won't get the proper control. Fixed bridle kites fly best on handles. That is how they are designed. I wasted a LOT of time and a bit of money trying to fly FB kites on bars. It can be done but at the price of dumbing down your kite. I could have become a much more skilled pilot faster if I hadn't wasted all my time messing with bars on FB kites!

You have never answered my question as to why you don't want to go depower? It seems to me that a good low bar pressure depower with a stopper is what you want and are trying to create using FB?




Kites: 2.5m Profoil , Quadrifoil XL kitesurfer, NPW 5 Danger.
Flexifoil: 1.7m Sting, 4.9m Blade 3, 9m Blade 2.
Flysurfer : 19m Speed 2 SA, 7m Pulse
Peter Lynn :18m Phantom, 15m Synergy, 10m Synergy, 1200 Farc, 460 Sarc, 130 Tarc, 5m Peel, 4.2m , 6.4, 8.5 C-Quads, 3.5 LS2 single skin.

Rides: Flexi / P.L. Frankin'Buggy , Shaped + straight skiis, sand skis, Coyote blades. Core 95 ATB. RKB R2 ATB .

Ken (K2)
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oldben




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[*] posted on 4-7-2017 at 04:58 AM


Hey Blade

Thanks for the explanation on FBs and bars.

My question was basically about the bar I have and how it might be hooked to the kite. My questions in the past were to
get an understanding of of the various bars that were being used on 4 line FBs and Nasas.
Most of the questions on depower were related to the Nasas as I remember.
Im not against flying depower and I guess the kites I got from Sean are set up this way as well as the DFO 9 I am waiting on.

I have come to the conclusion I need to learn handles and was going thru all the conglomeration of kite stuff I have sorting out the handles and bars trying to figure out what to keep/get rid of. Though my hand strength is improving to the point of flying handles, I can see the need to have to use a bar long term and was wondering about the common 4line bar vs the rather
complex PL cross over.










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[*] posted on 4-7-2017 at 05:19 AM


No i don't know your situation but
once you are all comfy w/ handles and being hooked in you are gonna laugh about all the time and effort you
put in trying to go fb on a bar or you'll go dp..its just how it is
most of my dp kites have decent bar pressure but guys have handed me set ups w/ near none and require 2
fingers and no effort to fly




US-31...Cquad set/ 2.6 Viper/ 2.9m Reactor/ 3.3 Buster/ 3.5m Bullet/ 3.6 Beamer/ 4m Buster/ 4m Ikon dp/ 4.5 Bullet/ 4.9m Blade/ 5.6 Twister/ 6.6m Blade/ 7.3 Frenzy/ 7.5 Apex/ 9m Fuel/ 13m Pulse/ Phantom I 9,12,15,18/ 2 Flexibugs/ PL Comp XR/ PL Big Foot/ landboards
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Bladerunner


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[*] posted on 4-7-2017 at 06:58 AM


I suspect you are looking at a simple 4 line FB bar.
The ring you mention on the middle line is so your brake lines can rock back and 4th as you turn the bar?




Kites: 2.5m Profoil , Quadrifoil XL kitesurfer, NPW 5 Danger.
Flexifoil: 1.7m Sting, 4.9m Blade 3, 9m Blade 2.
Flysurfer : 19m Speed 2 SA, 7m Pulse
Peter Lynn :18m Phantom, 15m Synergy, 10m Synergy, 1200 Farc, 460 Sarc, 130 Tarc, 5m Peel, 4.2m , 6.4, 8.5 C-Quads, 3.5 LS2 single skin.

Rides: Flexi / P.L. Frankin'Buggy , Shaped + straight skiis, sand skis, Coyote blades. Core 95 ATB. RKB R2 ATB .

Ken (K2)
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[*] posted on 4-7-2017 at 11:23 AM


Quote: Originally posted by abkayak  
No i don't know your situation but
once you are all comfy w/ handles and being hooked in you are gonna laugh about all the time and effort you
put in trying to go fb on a bar or you'll go dp..its just how it is
most of my dp kites have decent bar pressure but guys have handed me set ups w/ near none and require 2
fingers and know effort to fly


I agree with all this with one exception. The nasa stars are fixed bridle but fly great on a 2 line bar or the stock born 3 line bar. Hook in and fly one handed with ease with no bar pressure. Just simple stump pulling power.
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oldben




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[*] posted on 4-8-2017 at 05:51 AM


Yeah Blade

The brake lines run thru a form of eyelet and travel back and forth thru it.
Has a pull strap to set brake tension. Its a common set up I have seen by various makers. PL makes similar. I will try it. So far I tend to like smaller kites in higher winds. I can imagine a bigger kite might fly like Dumbo on a bar, but the smaller ones seem pretty responsive.

I agree with Sean on the NS kites. The common 3 line bar would be just fine.

I flew the 2.5 NS yesterday in pretty chopped up gusty winds at the R/C field. What a power house! I caught one gust with the kite overhead, felt it load up and just instinctively jumped with it. While it wasnt exactly a big lift I went up a bout a foot over a normal jump and the duration was extended a bit, meaning the kite had a good bit of lift. I learned later even though my wind meter
indicated around 15-18, the area had gusts to 35.

Now I understand why Sean said the 2.5 was the most used kite! Have to respect the Nasa!


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oldben




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[*] posted on 4-11-2017 at 06:27 AM


So I bought a Cross Kites Quattro 3.5m from AWOC to use as a handle trainer.
Went to Jekyll yesterday and flew at the water tower. Winds were lower than expected when we got there, 4-6.
Kite still flew in these winds but had to be worked. I was pretty impressed it flew at all actually. Flying the handles wasnt as hard
as I thought it might be, though Im sure I wasnt very graceful at it. It is really nice to be able to land the kite so easily.
Finally around 3 the seabreeze picked up and the kite woke up. Had a great time, its a good flying kite.
Had to adjust the brakes out a knot as I found them too sensitive as received.

Sad thing is in the stronger winds my left hand was done in about 20 min. I realize this is static flying and with a strop and harness I may be able to go longer. Next ting is to try the Quattro on the standard 4 line bar

I aslo got the DFO Nasa9 4.5 and depower bar yesterday. Its a very nice kite.
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[*] posted on 4-11-2017 at 06:33 AM


Quote: Originally posted by oldben  

Kite still flew in these winds but had to be worked. I was pretty impressed it flew at all actually.


I think that this is the best quality training towards kite control. Any idiot can get a kite in the air when the wind is blowing hard. It takes skill to fly a kite in low winds.
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[*] posted on 4-11-2017 at 04:42 PM


WoopWoop KiteLoop!

20m is about all I can stand flying Armstrong and powered as well.

For FB kites it is easiest to hold the handles with one finger above the fly line and the rest below. Might be a little easier on the fingers to?

NPW kites on handles like a bit of brake input all the time. I personally find it better to fly them with all fingers below the fly line.

If you have a harness and are feeling comfortable start out just hooking in to rest up / extend your fly time.

As mentioned and as you saw, forcing the kite to fly in less than it's ideal range helps to make you a better pilot. If the kite will fly to the edge and stick there it is in it's range. Before that you want to keep it in motion creating " apparent wind " as you race through the power zone on front lines. Down turns are also a useful move. Crazy as it sounds small light kites fly early. If you force them. They just don't produce usable power to get you moving as early as big canopies will.

Keep getting in all the fly time you can before WBB . In a perfect world you want to feel confident enough with your pilot skills to take your 1st buggy runs there! Consider going for a tandem ride with somebody 1st. As they take you around they can tell you how they are setting up to start + turn etc..




Kites: 2.5m Profoil , Quadrifoil XL kitesurfer, NPW 5 Danger.
Flexifoil: 1.7m Sting, 4.9m Blade 3, 9m Blade 2.
Flysurfer : 19m Speed 2 SA, 7m Pulse
Peter Lynn :18m Phantom, 15m Synergy, 10m Synergy, 1200 Farc, 460 Sarc, 130 Tarc, 5m Peel, 4.2m , 6.4, 8.5 C-Quads, 3.5 LS2 single skin.

Rides: Flexi / P.L. Frankin'Buggy , Shaped + straight skiis, sand skis, Coyote blades. Core 95 ATB. RKB R2 ATB .

Ken (K2)
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oldben




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[*] posted on 4-12-2017 at 06:08 AM


Thanks for the encouragement!!

Problem with the handles is I only have 2 fingers and a thumb to hang on with. Thumb was doing all the work
hooked over the handles top. Still Im happy with how well it went.
I noticed when the winds got better that the kite would actually turn quite well by just pulling the brake on the side turned to. It has highly effective brakes. This doesnt bode well for the standard 4 line bar I imagine.

I have a kite boarding harness that came with the LEI stuff, looks nearly new. Should work fine right? Also bought a strop.
I have got to learn how to handle the 4 lines as far as winding them up. I read the article Angus wrote Kiting 101and wrapped
them that way but still tangled /twisted them up. Guess I will practice this a bit. The bar is so nice with the end winders.

Wished I had brought the buggy, tide was low, beach was basically empty, and the winds were ideal for a total noob.
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[*] posted on 4-12-2017 at 06:44 AM


Quote: Originally posted by oldben  
Thanks for the encouragement!!

Problem with the handles is I only have 2 fingers and a thumb to hang on with. Thumb was doing all the work
hooked over the handles top. Still Im happy with how well it went.
I noticed when the winds got better that the kite would actually turn quite well by just pulling the brake on the side turned to. It has highly effective brakes. This doesnt bode well for the standard 4 line bar I imagine.

I have a kite boarding harness that came with the LEI stuff, looks nearly new. Should work fine right? Also bought a strop.
I have got to learn how to handle the 4 lines as far as winding them up. I read the article Angus wrote Kiting 101and wrapped
them that way but still tangled /twisted them up. Guess I will practice this a bit. The bar is so nice with the end winders.

Wished I had brought the buggy, tide was low, beach was basically empty, and the winds were ideal for a total noob.


You'll know you are ready to get in the buggy when you can walk the route while keeping the kite in the air. Just head down the beach, facing the way you are walking, perpindicular to the wind. The kite should be on your side, with your arms over to your side flying the kite. Ypui've got to watch where you are going at the same time as keeping the kite in the wind window and flying. At some point, turn your body downwind and turn the kite so that it is flying back the way you came. Walk back the way you came with the kite flying next to you.

That's the essential kite skills you will need while buggying. If you cn't do all that without dropping the kite, you aren't ready for the buggy.
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oldben




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[*] posted on 4-12-2017 at 08:15 AM


Yeah
I know need more air time. But just a quick ride even if I had to walk back!

Cant wait til Jibe!

Maybe this tip will help if anybody else has a Quattro or any kite that doesnt have an anchor point for the bridles.
Big Mike pointed this out in his review. Really how much does a sewn in Velcro loop cost? All it takes is 2 tongue
depressors and a cable tie. Holds the bridles very firmly. The depressors are smooth and gentle on the bridles and kite too.

004.JPG - 100kB 005.JPG - 105kB
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jimbocz




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[*] posted on 4-12-2017 at 08:56 AM


Quote: Originally posted by oldben  
Yeah
I know need more air time. But just a quick ride even if I had to walk back!

Cant wait til Jibe!

Maybe this tip will help if anybody else has a Quattro or any kite that doesnt have an anchor point for the bridles.
Big Mike pointed this out in his review. Really how much does a sewn in Velcro loop cost? All it takes is 2 tongue
depressors and a cable tie. Holds the bridles very firmly. The depressors are smooth and gentle on the bridles and kite too.



Is that to hold the bridles after you take the lines off? Personally, I never take my lines off my kites if I can avoid it. It's like begging for tangles. I guess it might be different if you don't have lines and handles for every kite you own, but I'd make it a priority to get some. Trying to switch over lines and handles on a windy beach is a recipe for a tangled up mess.

Oh, and sorry if it sounds like a lecture but don't get in that buggy without a helmet. There are so many ways you can bash your skull. Once, on a high wind day, the kite got behind me and the lines were across my chest. The full power of the kite was applied to bending my torso backwards until my head hit the axle hard. If I weren't wearing a helmet, I probably wouldn't be typing this.
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[*] posted on 4-12-2017 at 12:06 PM


I'll lecture about helmet.
My worst OBE ever. Jerked out of my buggy when a large gust blew my 3.2m Zebra behind me during a turn, did a superman exit, about 10ft of air, dropping me on the hardpack beach ON MY HEAD AND left SHOULDER. Dragged on my side with my helmet against the sand leaving minor sand rash on my face with a 55ft drag across the beach!
The impact marks are on my helmet. My face healed up and I'm still getting steroid shots in my shoulder.

Several fellows use a bike helmet and they work and others use a motor cycle skid lid. Some like full face etc. They all work, just some work better than others. Look at it like this..... what's your head worth?

USE A FREAKIN HELMET. :mad:




NAPKA US 47
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Beamer 1.8m, 2.5m A Chekka A few Zebras
4m Ozone Access de-power foil, prototype (for sale)
Wipika gear 5m DP (for sale) PL 8.6m Reactor
Big E NPW 21 6m custom NASA
A couple of monster tube kites I don't have the balls yet to fly.
Ivanpah Heavy with Big Kid mods. Other junk and stuff for fun.

OOBE Field Dirt Diver

"The function of life is to live it, not to exist" Jack London 1916
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oldben




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[*] posted on 4-12-2017 at 12:51 PM


Thanks yall!

Dont mind a helmet lecture a bit.

I have one and you can be sure it will be on in the buggy! Sounds like a heck of and experience Cheeks!

Jimbocz

I prefer to remove the lines and bar/handles on most kites. Makes the kites easier to shake out and clean. If the wind is up I generally hitch em up at home before hitting the flying area. Probably more trouble but its just personal preference I guess.
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[*] posted on 4-12-2017 at 02:38 PM


Quote: Originally posted by oldben  
Makes the kites easier to shake out and clean.


Huh? Are we supposed to be doing this :puzzled:




Go ahead... tell me to "go fly a kite!" Please!

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oldben




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[*] posted on 4-13-2017 at 06:02 AM


Quote: Originally posted by hiaguy  
Quote: Originally posted by oldben  
Makes the kites easier to shake out and clean.


Huh? Are we supposed to be doing this :puzzled:


I always do, hoping maybe some of the stuff I have lost might be in there.

With the Quattro especially since it doesnt have dirt outs.
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[*] posted on 4-13-2017 at 05:23 PM


Quote: Originally posted by oldben  
Quote: Originally posted by hiaguy  
Quote: Originally posted by oldben  
Makes the kites easier to shake out and clean.


Huh? Are we supposed to be doing this :puzzled:


I always do, hoping maybe some of the stuff I have lost might be in there.

With the Quattro especially since it doesnt have dirt outs.


At our age I have to keep my kites and lines together so I am sure I won't forget one or the other. ;)

NAPKA require you to wear a helmet when in motion. Sounds like you are wise enough to have done so but membership ( required for WBB ) dictates that you wear one.




Kites: 2.5m Profoil , Quadrifoil XL kitesurfer, NPW 5 Danger.
Flexifoil: 1.7m Sting, 4.9m Blade 3, 9m Blade 2.
Flysurfer : 19m Speed 2 SA, 7m Pulse
Peter Lynn :18m Phantom, 15m Synergy, 10m Synergy, 1200 Farc, 460 Sarc, 130 Tarc, 5m Peel, 4.2m , 6.4, 8.5 C-Quads, 3.5 LS2 single skin.

Rides: Flexi / P.L. Frankin'Buggy , Shaped + straight skiis, sand skis, Coyote blades. Core 95 ATB. RKB R2 ATB .

Ken (K2)
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[*] posted on 4-14-2017 at 11:17 AM


Quote: Originally posted by hiaguy  
Quote: Originally posted by oldben  
Makes the kites easier to shake out and clean.


Huh? Are we supposed to be doing this :puzzled:


I always figure 8 my lines and just gather up the wad of ripstop. I just stuff it in the bag to latter para pack in a clean and dry environment. No beach staines.




NAPKA US 47
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Beamer 1.8m, 2.5m A Chekka A few Zebras
4m Ozone Access de-power foil, prototype (for sale)
Wipika gear 5m DP (for sale) PL 8.6m Reactor
Big E NPW 21 6m custom NASA
A couple of monster tube kites I don't have the balls yet to fly.
Ivanpah Heavy with Big Kid mods. Other junk and stuff for fun.

OOBE Field Dirt Diver

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oldben




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[*] posted on 4-14-2017 at 01:18 PM


I usually remove the lines then stuff the kite in the bag. Take it home shake it out, then lay it out and check the bridles and kite over then fold it up nicely(try too any way) and put the handles/bar in the bag with the kite.


Since trying handles I have spent some time fighting with getting the 4line handle winding sequence down to no avail.

Saw John Holgate demo the sock winding method at the end of one of his vids( he attributes this to another forum member). Man what an easy way to do it.

Highly recommended--5 stars!
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[*] posted on 4-15-2017 at 05:38 AM


So since working with the foil type kites on handles I decided to build a quiver.

Bought a 2.5 FF Rage for $169 shipped from Amazon. I thought this was a pretty good deal. This was kite only, I already
have several line sets.
I got the kite yesterday and was blown away by the quality! Even the bag was amazing. Remember I havent seen many kites let alone high end ones, but compared to the few I have these are tops.

Went back to buy a 3.5 and the 4.7 and the 3.5s were sold out. So bought the 4.7. Will use the old 3.5 Cross Quatro in the meantime. Initially I like the idea of having a line of similar kites so less time is spent on set up and more on learning.

Speaking of learning I couldnt find an explanation on the triple A adjuster. I see how it works but how is it changing the kite?

I know yall think Im kite crazy but really all the money I have spent so far is a drop in the bucket on what I would spend in a month when I was heavily into sport aviation.

More kites=more fun!
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[*] posted on 4-15-2017 at 05:59 AM




Triple A Adjuster ( AoA) explanation:

http://www.flexifoil.com/template/Manuals/Blade%20IV%20-%20T...
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[*] posted on 4-15-2017 at 06:07 AM


Quote: Originally posted by skimtwashington  


Triple A Adjuster ( AoA) explanation:

http://www.flexifoil.com/template/Manuals/Blade%20IV%20-%20T...


Thanks Tuck for posting this link. Interesting and elegantly simple design. It would seem that to optimize this setup you would want to adjust the relative length of the brake lines too. In practice, do you have some knots on the brake handle pigtails that you lengthen or shorten the brake lines with as appropriate? Seems like that would be how to do it.

Maybe this is a non-factor and just an illusionary point coming from the drawing. :puzzled:




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[*] posted on 4-15-2017 at 07:22 AM


Brake line remains constant in all 3 modes.
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[*] posted on 4-15-2017 at 07:42 AM


Quote: Originally posted by skimtwashington  
Brake line remains constant in all 3 modes.


:thumbup:




Born-Kites:
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NasaStar-4 (2.5m, 4.0m, 5.5m, 7.0m)
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Icelantic Keepers 193s

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[*] posted on 4-15-2017 at 09:06 AM


Please take a good look at depower kites and maybe try and get some hands on experience at WBB.

It sure seems to me that a good low bar pressure depower is the perfect set up for your needs. I am still not clear why you are so interested in kites that fly best off handles when a good depower and bar will seem to be the ticket to long rides with total control?




Kites: 2.5m Profoil , Quadrifoil XL kitesurfer, NPW 5 Danger.
Flexifoil: 1.7m Sting, 4.9m Blade 3, 9m Blade 2.
Flysurfer : 19m Speed 2 SA, 7m Pulse
Peter Lynn :18m Phantom, 15m Synergy, 10m Synergy, 1200 Farc, 460 Sarc, 130 Tarc, 5m Peel, 4.2m , 6.4, 8.5 C-Quads, 3.5 LS2 single skin.

Rides: Flexi / P.L. Frankin'Buggy , Shaped + straight skiis, sand skis, Coyote blades. Core 95 ATB. RKB R2 ATB .

Ken (K2)
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[*] posted on 4-16-2017 at 04:48 AM


Quote: Originally posted by Bladerunner  
Please take a good look at depower kites and maybe try and get some hands on experience at WBB.

It sure seems to me that a good low bar pressure depower is the perfect set up for your needs. I am still not clear why you are so interested in kites that fly best off handles when a good depower and bar will seem to be the ticket to long rides with total control?


That's what I'm thinking every time I read this thread. I always wanted to be gentle because when you've just bought a bunch of new kites you don't want to hear that. I always figured that Ben would get a few hours practising with fixed bridles to understand the basics, then move on to an Access or something depower with a bar. Problem solved, missing a finger won't even be an issue. Harness and safety release sorted. Desire to use a bar satisfied.

No biggie though, the more experience with different kites the better.

Ben, if you still haven't had a go on an access be sure to find me at JIBE. I'll most likely be under a big orange Access.
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Bladerunner


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[*] posted on 4-16-2017 at 07:50 AM


While I have pushed depower on Ben before I felt OK pushing for it again when he mentioned that He is OK with the money he has spent.

PLease PLEASE DO check out depower kites at WBB! I truly believe that once you get moving strapped into one you will kiss handles goodbye!

As you are seeing, Nasa and FB kites fly very different. Depower also is the same game, different animal. I started out on FB and still own FB+ Nasa but I will go to my depower kites every time conditions permit.

Personally I think you want to look at the new Single Skin depower kites. They will suit 99% of the things you seem to be after.




Kites: 2.5m Profoil , Quadrifoil XL kitesurfer, NPW 5 Danger.
Flexifoil: 1.7m Sting, 4.9m Blade 3, 9m Blade 2.
Flysurfer : 19m Speed 2 SA, 7m Pulse
Peter Lynn :18m Phantom, 15m Synergy, 10m Synergy, 1200 Farc, 460 Sarc, 130 Tarc, 5m Peel, 4.2m , 6.4, 8.5 C-Quads, 3.5 LS2 single skin.

Rides: Flexi / P.L. Frankin'Buggy , Shaped + straight skiis, sand skis, Coyote blades. Core 95 ATB. RKB R2 ATB .

Ken (K2)
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Windstruck


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[*] posted on 4-16-2017 at 08:36 AM


Quote: Originally posted by Bladerunner  
While I have pushed depower on Ben before I felt OK pushing for it again when he mentioned that He is OK with the money he has spent.

PLease PLEASE DO check out depower kites at WBB! I truly believe that once you get moving strapped into one you will kiss handles goodbye!

As you are seeing, Nasa and FB kites fly very different. Depower also is the same game, different animal. I started out on FB and still own FB+ Nasa but I will go to my depower kites every time conditions permit.

Personally I think you want to look at the new Single Skin depower kites. They will suit 99% of the things you seem to be after.


I completely agree with Ken(2) re taking a keen look at SS kites. I disclaim that I am thoroughly biased towards that persuasion, but they truly do check a lot of boxes. While I insist on referring to you as (not-so-old) Ben, one thing I'd be keenly considering is selecting non-lifty kites. Appreciate that while all kites can and will lift you in the right (or wrong depending on how you view things) conditions, you have to work harder to get lofted with, for example, an Ozone Access, Flysurfer Peak, Born-Kite NS or LS2 than on myriad other kites with higher ARs. Going the route of non-lifty, low AR kites makes the Kiting experience less "sporty" than with high AR kites and you will sacrifice some upwind ability, but you may actually stay close to Terra Firma.





Born-Kites:
RaceStar+ (3.0m)
RaceStar (5.0m, 7.0m, 9.0m, 11.0m)
NasaStar-4 (2.5m, 4.0m, 5.5m, 7.0m)
NasaStar-3 (custom 3.2m)

Buggy:
Peter Lynn BigFoot+ nose & tail; midsection VTT rail & seat kit; home-brewed AQR

Skis:
Icelantic Keepers 193s

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oldben




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[*] posted on 4-16-2017 at 04:15 PM


Hey guys say what you need to, all advice is welcomed.

I have thought of depower kites for sure. Figured Id work my way up from the bottom learning what I could about
all the various kites. Everything I have done to this point has been enlightening as well as fun. If Im never able to move
anything with wind power static flying is still a blast! I have been flying kites since Hi-Flyers we paper and cost a dime. I love kites!

So telling me I will be better off with a depower besides being good advice means more kites! Yaay!

Recommendations?

Now what kind of fun can we have with these LEIs I have?
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