WANTED: I would like to buy new or used a nice set of 10m lines (four) to be used as line extensions for my 12m Peak-2 for just those days when it
only seems as if the wing flaps of small birds is creating the wind around me.
I'm open to lengths other than exactly 10m.
Some wonderful new flying options are opening up to me 45 minutes from home (thanks to slapbasswoody) putting long lines back into play.
WANTED: I would like to buy new or used a nice set of 10m lines (four) to be used as line extensions for my 12m Peak-2 for just those days when it
only seems as if the wing flaps of small birds is creating the wind around me.
I'm open to lengths other than exactly 10m.
Some wonderful new flying options are opening up to me 45 minutes from home (thanks to slapbasswoody) putting long lines back into play.
I'll have a look through my bag of bits Steve, I might have some spare lines.
PKA# K754
XXtreme XXRacer
Set of Reactor 3s
Chrono v2 9 - 15m
I bought some from this ebay seller. They look exactly like the pictures. They did have 10m listed but now it says contact them for the length you
want: http://r.ebay.com/NGb8he
Someone may well correct me, but the use of line extensions produces more traction than original line length. In the case in point, viz., putting 10m
line extensions onto my stock 21m lines (call it a 50% increase in length) will allow the kite to sit slightly further forward in the wind window thus
changing the angle of pull relative to me sitting in my buggy. I suspect the angles between me, the kite, and the wind direction vector (in a sense,
the triangle you would draw in solving the force mechanics in the situation) remain the same irrespective of line length, but importantly, the
triangle if you will gets larger the longer the lines get. The length of the side of the triangle of interest (the forward force vector) gets longer
meaning it gets larger creating more pull. 100m lines would be even more powerful, etc.
The price? You need a lot of room to play like on a wide open beach or a playa surface like Alvord in OR or Ivanpah in CA/NV. The other big price you
pay is control of the kite. As the pilot you are limited by changing the angle of the bar or maybe reaching up and grabbing a line and pulling it
towards you. Longer lines would make this relative input lower than shorter lines. The net result is a sluggish kite.
For my purposes, eking out some extra juice in low wind conditions in a wide open space I suspect I'll be alright. I'm looking to set a tack line, do
some park and ride flying and then making a big turn at the end, and I think this setup will work for that.
I'd be most interested to hear from others that truly understand the physics here to confirm what I've said, or equally likely, set me straight.
By putting longer lines on your kite, you are effectively increasing the distance the kite travels along its arc during each power stroke, and it
spends more time in the power zone with each stroke. If you think about it, if you double the radius (line length), you will also double the
circumference of a circle (the path that the kite follows). So longer lines allow you to keep the kite flying along a nice long arc developing good
power for a longer period of time, and minimize the amount of sine-ing you need to do.
One other advantage is that getting the kite up higher will often get it into cleaner, stronger wind.
The downside is that your turn speed will also slow down. But sometimes that is a fair trade.
Founder/Owner Colorado Kite Sports
Specializing in Gin, Little Cloud & HQ4 foils. http://coloradokitesports.com
Most used Kites: LC Pelican, Gin Marabou
Skis: Something w/ Marker Baron or Duke Bindings
Boards: Litewave Wing, Naish Jet 2000, OR Mako 140
By putting longer lines on your kite, you are effectively increasing the distance the kite travels along its arc during each power stroke, and it
spends more time in the power zone with each stroke. If you think about it, if you double the radius (line length), you will also double the
circumference of a circle (the path that the kite follows). So longer lines allow you to keep the kite flying along a nice long arc developing good
power for a longer period of time, and minimize the amount of sine-ing you need to do.
One other advantage is that getting the kite up higher will often get it into cleaner, stronger wind.
The downside is that your turn speed will also slow down. But sometimes that is a fair trade.
Nate - thanks for weighing in here!
What you are saying makes great sense, particularly for static flying and sining while in motion. What remains unclear for me based solely on your
explanation is how line length would affect park and ride propulsive force when in motion. In that setting distance flown within a wind window is a
non-factor as the kite's relative position in the wind window remains unchanged since the whole wind window moves with the rider. In the park and
ride I'm still thinking my explanation is relevant, but maybe I'm off here. Others?
Steve - I could be wrong, but I don't think line length makes much of a difference in terms of where the kite is going to sit in the wind window -
assuming your line extensions are all the same length. The position of the kite in the window is affected by things like the airfoil design shape and
and how much trim you have pulled in.
You may see a slight advantage in power when parked if you are flying the kite at something like 45 degrees off the ground, just by the nature that
the kite will be higher and hopefully in some cleaner/stronger wind.
At least that's how I see it. I've only used 3m extensions though - maybe some of the other guys who have used 10m+ extensions like you're talking
about could chime in with some actual real-world experience. I'd be interested to hear as well.
Founder/Owner Colorado Kite Sports
Specializing in Gin, Little Cloud & HQ4 foils. http://coloradokitesports.com
Most used Kites: LC Pelican, Gin Marabou
Skis: Something w/ Marker Baron or Duke Bindings
Boards: Litewave Wing, Naish Jet 2000, OR Mako 140
Not sure I have this right, but this is what I mean:
Here, the longer the lines the larger the resultant force vector propelling the kite forward and thus the rider. Again, I could be totally wrong
about this.
The longer the lines the more drag that develops. With that you will need to increase the length of the brake lines to compensate for what you loose
in the power lines being drug through the air. I've had to increase the brake lines on 90m lines by 3 feet.
As for the position of the kite in the window, you will loose a bit of the upwind portion because of line drag. If you add a section, the joint or
connected point will create more line drag than a single line will.
Depower lines create more line drag than fix bridle because of line thickness.
If you add 10m or so you probably won't notice any change unless you fly clean air.
Appex buggy, Libre hardcore buggies.
Flexboardz. Blokarts.
PKD Century Soulflys. NPW's. Nasa Stars.
A few other less flown oddballs,
Line sets from 10" to 328" or 2m to 100m.
worlds only AQR that works.
North American distributor for PKD.
"Kite Bugging is not an addiction until you try to quit".
Not sure I have this right, but this is what I mean:
Here, the longer the lines the larger the resultant force vector propelling the kite forward and thus the rider. Again, I could be totally wrong
about this.
In the real world it doesn't work that way.
The kite will only go so far into the window. Shorter or longer lines won't change that. Loooonger lines will retard or reduce the window because the
lines bow or drag making the window smaller.
Appex buggy, Libre hardcore buggies.
Flexboardz. Blokarts.
PKD Century Soulflys. NPW's. Nasa Stars.
A few other less flown oddballs,
Line sets from 10" to 328" or 2m to 100m.
worlds only AQR that works.
North American distributor for PKD.
"Kite Bugging is not an addiction until you try to quit".
Thanks Jeff! I'm just fiddling really. My mind congeals if I don't think about something interesting. Today, work just didn't do that for me.
Fortunately, many days it still does. That's doubly useful since by nearly all accounts my idle thoughts just don't seem to bring in the bacon. Best
not quit my day job!
Hahaha, I quit my day job and it only led to more trouble. You've heard the statement, idle hands is the devils workshop?
Appex buggy, Libre hardcore buggies.
Flexboardz. Blokarts.
PKD Century Soulflys. NPW's. Nasa Stars.
A few other less flown oddballs,
Line sets from 10" to 328" or 2m to 100m.
worlds only AQR that works.
North American distributor for PKD.
"Kite Bugging is not an addiction until you try to quit".
Appex buggy, Libre hardcore buggies.
Flexboardz. Blokarts.
PKD Century Soulflys. NPW's. Nasa Stars.
A few other less flown oddballs,
Line sets from 10" to 328" or 2m to 100m.
worlds only AQR that works.
North American distributor for PKD.
"Kite Bugging is not an addiction until you try to quit".
check the post
Best light wind kites (What's yours?) I have 2 pics of my 90m lines
Appex buggy, Libre hardcore buggies.
Flexboardz. Blokarts.
PKD Century Soulflys. NPW's. Nasa Stars.
A few other less flown oddballs,
Line sets from 10" to 328" or 2m to 100m.
worlds only AQR that works.
North American distributor for PKD.
"Kite Bugging is not an addiction until you try to quit".
Longer lines: More power, slower steering response, better access to higher gradient and smoother winds, more room for looping.
Shorter Lines: Less power, faster steering response, get you into tighter areas, reduce your down loop ability.
Modular line sets, like those that come stock on the Flysurfer Viron DLX allow for customizing the lines for the conditions or the rider. We carry
spare linesets to help get us back if the winds taper of. Conversely, practicing half-lining (doubling back the lines) is a good procedure to have in
your tool kit in case thigs gett too windy and you have exhausted your depower options and don't have a wing on board to swap to. Not all lines sets
are set up to half line as easily these days as now so many set are interlocked and not larks headed.
Chris Krug-Owner @ Hardwater Kiting. Authorized Dealer of Ozone, Flysurfer, HQ kites. www.hardwaterkiter.com 603-986-2784
@Feyd. I agree with the shorter-longer line nutshell to a point. I'm not real good with depower and have limited time on the bar. As for fixed bridle
the nutshell is off a bit.
Short lines and big kites make less power and faster kites, small kites makes less power and less control. I haven't spent a lot of time with small
kites and short lines except when static flying.
Long lines and big kites makes more power and slower response because of the distance the kite has to travel. The kite has the same speed whether
small or big as before, it just takes up to 3 times the distance to travel making it seem slow.
Here's the odd part. High winds with 30m lines and a 2m kite is like a bumble bee on steroids, now add 60m lines to the 2m and it is a tame 2m kite as
if it was a 10mph day on 30m lines. The longer lines makes the window 3 times the distance to travele and create more drag on the kite than it can
handle and slows it down quite a bit. At this point the power remains on the low side. I can't explain why as I have only begun to explore the long
lines/small kite buggy riding.
So the size makes a difference as the kite gets smaller in the opposite direction as with big kites. Basically Chris is right.
Appex buggy, Libre hardcore buggies.
Flexboardz. Blokarts.
PKD Century Soulflys. NPW's. Nasa Stars.
A few other less flown oddballs,
Line sets from 10" to 328" or 2m to 100m.
worlds only AQR that works.
North American distributor for PKD.
"Kite Bugging is not an addiction until you try to quit".
Bigkid - thanks for all the input - your making me want to do more fiddling with line lengths. The 300ft lines looked ridiculous. And fun.
Steve - Your talk of long lines got me thinking about wind gradients and dynamic soaring. This is slightly off topic, but if you want some more brain
anti-cease, you should check it out. I studied it a little bit in school and its pretty fascinating:
I'm wondering if you could actually apply the idea to kiting where you have a wind gradient with zero wind on the ground but something a little bit
more up higher. Applying the dynamic soaring concepts, you should be able to gradually build up airspeed in the kite wing through a succession of
kite loops in the same direction. Granted the kite is mostly flying perpendicular to the wind gradient, but there is a component going around the
airfoil that is not. Maybe if you already have wind up higher, it really doesn't matter, and maybe the drag in a standard foil kite is so great and
the wind gradient so small that the benefits would be negligible. Now I'm just thinking out loud. Probably time for me to leave work too! Enjoy
these kind of mental games though- thanks for getting me thinking again.
[update: on my drive home I thought about it a little bit more and don't think there's really any benefit to be had for kiting - but whatever. Still
kind of an interesting idea]
Founder/Owner Colorado Kite Sports
Specializing in Gin, Little Cloud & HQ4 foils. http://coloradokitesports.com
Most used Kites: LC Pelican, Gin Marabou
Skis: Something w/ Marker Baron or Duke Bindings
Boards: Litewave Wing, Naish Jet 2000, OR Mako 140
I was at ivanpah when the wind wasn't blowing at all. I launched my 12m century on 90m lines and took a few steps backwards and as the kite got to
about a 45 degree angle to the ground I was scudding across the lakebed. As I left the ground like being in a hot air balloon I wasn't hooked in and I
was thinking if I let go of the handles I would end up with a 1200 foot long rats nest. It took about a minute to inch my fingers out to the brake end
of the handles and the kite began its 1 1/2 minute fall to earth.
Zero wind on the ground and my guess was up on top it was 15-20 mph. It was at about 100 feet when the wind showed up, not a good place to fly the
kite in any condition. You never fly with the kite at the zenith, you keep it as low as possible. I then swapped the 12 for a 5.5m and tried again.
This time I only got about 5 feet off the ground instead of 15 feet.
Up at 300 feet the wind was quite steady, at about 200 it was a little bumpy and at about 75 feet it dropped of to zero.
There's nothing sweeter than splashing through the surf in the buggy passing cars 100 feet away and watching the drivers looking for the kite that 200
feet the other Side of them scooting across the top of the trees.
At the beach it's a little different because of the dunes and trees. The wind shows up at about 100 feet and a bit lower as you get closer to the
dunes/trees. I don't like the high flying on long lines because you can't see or feel the wind as easy as with 30m lines. Everything is a bit slower
in every aspect.
Appex buggy, Libre hardcore buggies.
Flexboardz. Blokarts.
PKD Century Soulflys. NPW's. Nasa Stars.
A few other less flown oddballs,
Line sets from 10" to 328" or 2m to 100m.
worlds only AQR that works.
North American distributor for PKD.
"Kite Bugging is not an addiction until you try to quit".
I was at ivanpah when the wind wasn't blowing at all. I launched my 12m century on 90m lines and took a few steps backwards and as the kite got to
about a 45 degree angle to the ground I was scudding across the lakebed. As I left the ground like being in a hot air balloon I wasn't hooked in and I
was thinking if I let go of the handles I would end up with a 1200 foot long rats nest. It took about a minute to inch my fingers out to the brake end
of the handles and the kite began its 1 1/2 minute fall to earth.
Zero wind on the ground and my guess was up on top it was 15-20 mph. It was at about 100 feet when the wind showed up, not a good place to fly the
kite in any condition. You never fly with the kite at the zenith, you keep it as low as possible. I then swapped the 12 for a 5.5m and tried again.
This time I only got about 5 feet off the ground instead of 15 feet.
Up at 300 feet the wind was quite steady, at about 200 it was a little bumpy and at about 75 feet it dropped of to zero.
There's nothing sweeter than splashing through the surf in the buggy passing cars 100 feet away and watching the drivers looking for the kite that 200
feet the other Side of them scooting across the top of the trees.
At the beach it's a little different because of the dunes and trees. The wind shows up at about 100 feet and a bit lower as you get closer to the
dunes/trees. I don't like the high flying on long lines because you can't see or feel the wind as easy as with 30m lines. Everything is a bit slower
in every aspect.
Jeff - awesome tale and quite hairball to boot. I suspect that was a bit of a Code Brown moment there for a while. Agreed, had you let go of those
lines you might still be out there to this day untangling.
Haha, try to parapack 90m lines. Actually it's rather simple to wind them onto the handles, a simple trick makes it easy on and easy off.
Code brown it was a couple days before I needed the bathroom.
Appex buggy, Libre hardcore buggies.
Flexboardz. Blokarts.
PKD Century Soulflys. NPW's. Nasa Stars.
A few other less flown oddballs,
Line sets from 10" to 328" or 2m to 100m.
worlds only AQR that works.
North American distributor for PKD.
"Kite Bugging is not an addiction until you try to quit".
Bigkid - thanks for all the input - your making me want to do more fiddling with line lengths. The 300ft lines looked ridiculous. And fun.
Steve - Your talk of long lines got me thinking about wind gradients and dynamic soaring. This is slightly off topic, but if you want some more brain
anti-cease, you should check it out. I studied it a little bit in school and its pretty fascinating:
I'm wondering if you could actually apply the idea to kiting where you have a wind gradient with zero wind on the ground but something a little bit
more up higher. Applying the dynamic soaring concepts, you should be able to gradually build up airspeed in the kite wing through a succession of
kite loops in the same direction. Granted the kite is mostly flying perpendicular to the wind gradient, but there is a component going around the
airfoil that is not. Maybe if you already have wind up higher, it really doesn't matter, and maybe the drag in a standard foil kite is so great and
the wind gradient so small that the benefits would be negligible. Now I'm just thinking out loud. Probably time for me to leave work too! Enjoy
these kind of mental games though- thanks for getting me thinking again.
[update: on my drive home I thought about it a little bit more and don't think there's really any benefit to be had for kiting - but whatever. Still
kind of an interesting idea]
Most of my long line buggy riding is in ZERO WIND to about 6mph with 75% of it with my 12.5m. While most of it is due to not wanting to go home empty
handed I am able to generate wind with my setup. This was the goal from the beginning and has spread to exploring small kites with long lines in high
winds for the desire to find out how it all works.
Don't think for a minute I just made up a 90m line set and had a go. I started out with a 30m and a 20m together, then 100 feet, 140 feet, 200 feet,
and worked my way up to 450 feet.
The line drag at 450 feet was unbelievable at about 45 feet. This is when the pucker factor was at it tightest. To me 300 feet or 90m was and still is
the most with the best results. I wouldn't recommend anyone go past that point and if you want to do 90m lines make sure that you have clean wind,
work up to it and have help while doing it so they can untie you and drive if necessary to the ER. Just saying......
Appex buggy, Libre hardcore buggies.
Flexboardz. Blokarts.
PKD Century Soulflys. NPW's. Nasa Stars.
A few other less flown oddballs,
Line sets from 10" to 328" or 2m to 100m.
worlds only AQR that works.
North American distributor for PKD.
"Kite Bugging is not an addiction until you try to quit".
![[*]](images/perspective/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
it was a couple days before I needed the bathroom.