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Author: Subject: Ice Buggy. Studded tires instead of Blades?
Feyd


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[*] posted on 10-14-2016 at 07:35 AM
Ice Buggy. Studded tires instead of Blades?


Just curious about thoughts on studded tires on an ice buggy. I was thinking this AM about how well my mountain bike handles glare ice with studs. With a good tungsten studded tire my bikes rial on ice like they do dirt. Granted, much like a ski I have the ability to angle the bike and carve the tires.

After watching Jeoren's front end wedge, https://vimeo.com/17496413 it seemed that you could reduce the risk of similar issues with studded tires.

I would think the contact patch on a studded fat tire, much like a bike, would offer some pretty amazing grip for both turning and holding off sideways drift. Within reason.

Any thoughts?





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ssayre




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[*] posted on 10-14-2016 at 08:04 AM


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ssayre




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[*] posted on 10-14-2016 at 12:31 PM


always liked this one too. Are these pilots members on here?

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Cheddarhead


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[*] posted on 10-14-2016 at 06:55 PM


I often thought that landsegler wheels with studs would be the mutts nuts :D



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nate76




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[*] posted on 10-14-2016 at 07:33 PM


ssayre, that was a crazy video. Amazing things didn't go worse for that guy when his cart nose-dived. That could have been real ugly.

Me and ice don't get along. Broken too many boneyos.




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canuck




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[*] posted on 10-14-2016 at 08:39 PM


ssayer, at least one of the Wood Lake guys is a member - kitesleder I think bladerunner might have kited with them.

Feyd, I followed kitesleder's lead last season and put about 100 - #6 x 3/8" sheet metal screws into each knobby Cheng Shin 3.50-8 tire. I looked at using real tire studs but they cost $1.00 each - the screws cost CDN$15.75 for 300.

The tires gripped well for me but I am a 200# old fart and pretty cautious. Held sideways and not able to drift to scrub speed but I did drift a few corners. Should be back onto black ice in a couple of weeks if all goes well with our weather.

studded buggy tires.jpg - 176kB




FB: Quadrifoil KiteSurfer XXXL, XXL, XL, XM, Pro Foil 5.5m, PL Reactor II 3.5m, Radsail 3m
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adambweird




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[*] posted on 10-14-2016 at 08:49 PM


This may be a silly question to ask, but has anyone tried switching out the buggy tires with skis that have carbide wear bars? Id think it would handle like it was on rails on the ice and be pretty fun in snow... but thats coming from a guy thats been in recovery from snomobiling for 6 years now, lol.



HQ: Symphony Beach 1.3, 2.2.4, Crossfire II 5m
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skimtwashington




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[*] posted on 10-15-2016 at 04:11 AM


A studded tire would have rolled over that pressure ridge of ice and kept going, probably.

..but you can't angle the buggy blades for maximum hold ....nor the studded tires for that matter....so between these two choices which would hold better for side pull and turning...?

That's just a small reason I'll stick to standing up on my hockey skates, holding a wicked edge and jumping over pressure ridges . The bigger reason would be I like the full body work out on terrain- using my leg muscles.... carving, jumping, 'dancing', having STOPPING power(brakes). Oh.. and you make more body heat too to stay warmer.

Switching out tires with skis I think would be even more of an issue on (glare) ice for cornering and holding an edge for same lack of angulation(edging) issues. A flat ski turns very poorly on ice.... it just skids eventually into a long radius turn.

Still, I wouldn't mind sampling a studded tire set up for a change of pace..... or ice blades on a buggy.
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Feyd


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[*] posted on 10-15-2016 at 07:43 AM


Back in the day we used to make our own studded tires as Canuck describes. Amazing grip, both flat and one edge. Rotational weight was substantial but thats not quite the same issue with a buggy I imagine and with a 3+ " contact patch at each wheel is susoect, and Canuck kinda enforces this for me, that sideways load bearing can be very good. Possibly too good if the wrong tire pressure is in there. ;)


Tungsten studs cost a lot more for sure. And self studding purpose made studs can be problematic and short term if the tire isn't purpose built to stud. Really if you aren't on pavement or rock, tungsten is a luxury, not a necessity IMO.

Canuck, those things must be loud. :-)




Chris Krug-Owner @ Hardwater Kiting. Authorized Dealer of Ozone, HQ and Flysurfer kites.
www.hardwaterkiter.com 518-407-KITE
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canuck




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[*] posted on 10-15-2016 at 10:20 AM



Quote:

Canuck, those things must be loud. :-)


Yep, don't quite need hearing protection but you can always play some tunes on noise cancelling headphones if it bugs you. I posted a short video from my first session last season.





FB: Quadrifoil KiteSurfer XXXL, XXL, XL, XM, Pro Foil 5.5m, PL Reactor II 3.5m, Radsail 3m
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adambweird




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[*] posted on 10-15-2016 at 05:35 PM



"Switching out tires with skis I think would be even more of an issue on (glare) ice for cornering and holding an edge for same lack of angulation(edging) issues. A flat ski turns very poorly on ice.... it just skids eventually into a long radius turn."

Thats what the carbide wear bars are for, theyre like little blades for the skis that allow for turning on ice. I ran em on my snowmobile allong with a studded track for max traction and turning ability on ice. Plus if you hit some powder while your out there, the skis dont get bogged down like the studded tires would.




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Feyd


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[*] posted on 10-16-2016 at 04:22 PM


Might have to get a buggy. Ice is the only place we have big enough to rider one. The more I think about this the more intrigued I am.




Chris Krug-Owner @ Hardwater Kiting. Authorized Dealer of Ozone, HQ and Flysurfer kites.
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Windstruck


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[*] posted on 10-16-2016 at 06:54 PM


Quote: Originally posted by Feyd  
Might have to get a buggy. Ice is the only place we have big enough to rider one. The more I think about this the more intrigued I am.


Chris - It would be like a gentleman's chariot compared to what you are used to. Know though that the only real exercise is going to come from hauling the buggy to the edge of the lake and back. The rest is pretty much sitting on your seat meat. Not that there is anything wrong with that, but it sure isn't setting an edge and ripping.




Kites:
Born-Kite LongStar-2 (3.5m, 5.5m, 7.5m, 9.5m, 12.5m);
Born-Kite NASA Star-3 (1.5m, 2.5m, 3.2m, 4.0m; z-bridled for handle flying)

Buggy:
Peter Lynn Bigfoot+ modified with VTT rail & seat kit (a seriously great performance upgrade), two sets of Sysmic rims (one set with BigFoot slicks for the "beach" of the Great Salt Lake and the other with 6-ply trailer tires for the Ivanpah playa), and BigKidKites AQR (because it keeps me in the bug and in my marriage)

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BeamerBob


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[*] posted on 10-17-2016 at 06:49 AM


I imagine a buggy with studded tires would be fun to get out and cruise around on, but blades would give you the speed you are used to. I bet both are tough on lines but the blades are like a hot knife in butter.



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Cheddarhead


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[*] posted on 10-17-2016 at 01:06 PM


Blades def faster and hold a line much better. With my blades I will tip over before any sliding happens. Like anything there are drawbacks. Conditions have to be just right, any bonded snow will slow you down, severed kite lines, any cracks at speed can potentially ruin a fun day.

One of my outings from last winter:
https://youtu.be/uswKroGapV8




SS Rally 14m
SS Rally 12m
SS RPM 10m
SS Rally 8m
SS Rally 6m
FS Speed 3 15m dlx
FS Peak 2 6m
Ozone Frenzy 9m
Ozone Access XT 6m
PL Farc 1200

What I ride:
Home brew buggy
Volkl race tiger DH 210
Dynastar DH 218
Blizzard Cochise 185
Steepwater 179 twin tip
Aboards Reverse 161
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skimtwashington




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[*] posted on 10-17-2016 at 01:15 PM




For the mix of snow and glare ice, your set up is not a bad choice for mobility over this mix 'terrain'.

Making me dream of winter....

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Windstruck


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[*] posted on 10-17-2016 at 04:19 PM


Snowed at my house today. Just sayin...... :D :D:D



Kites:
Born-Kite LongStar-2 (3.5m, 5.5m, 7.5m, 9.5m, 12.5m);
Born-Kite NASA Star-3 (1.5m, 2.5m, 3.2m, 4.0m; z-bridled for handle flying)

Buggy:
Peter Lynn Bigfoot+ modified with VTT rail & seat kit (a seriously great performance upgrade), two sets of Sysmic rims (one set with BigFoot slicks for the "beach" of the Great Salt Lake and the other with 6-ply trailer tires for the Ivanpah playa), and BigKidKites AQR (because it keeps me in the bug and in my marriage)

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TEDWESLEY




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[*] posted on 10-17-2016 at 04:52 PM


You also need steady winds especially with an open cell kite. The buggy takes a long time to burn off speed. If you are ripping along
and the wind dies for any reason you over run the kite which falls to the ice behind you. You might be alright or you might sever a line or four,
or the kite could pop open, inflate, and the OBE of a lifetime happens. I've done all of those. When it is working it's a hoot!
I use blades, but the studs look good in the video. Hardened studs are available with self tapping threads from a company in Maine that
makes ice creepers.




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Cheddarhead


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[*] posted on 10-18-2016 at 09:50 PM


Accidentally came across this video of a guy using snowmobile skis with carbides on a buggy. Seems to work pretty slick:cool:

https://youtu.be/hq0ZWlPXe_0




SS Rally 14m
SS Rally 12m
SS RPM 10m
SS Rally 8m
SS Rally 6m
FS Speed 3 15m dlx
FS Peak 2 6m
Ozone Frenzy 9m
Ozone Access XT 6m
PL Farc 1200

What I ride:
Home brew buggy
Volkl race tiger DH 210
Dynastar DH 218
Blizzard Cochise 185
Steepwater 179 twin tip
Aboards Reverse 161
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markite


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[*] posted on 10-19-2016 at 08:22 AM


Quote: Originally posted by Cheddarhead  
Accidentally came across this video of a guy using snowmobile skis with carbides on a buggy. Seems to work pretty slick:cool:

https://youtu.be/hq0ZWlPXe_0


your blades work great Robert. The video you posted is of Claude and Michel and someone else running with the snowmobile skis and carbides. Many of the Wildwoods gang will know Claude. There are several buggies around here with that ski set up using the lighter skins and the carbides. Ziggy had experimented with the length of carbides to put on the back to balance wash out/grip/drag. he went from 6 to 8 to 10 inches of carbides on the back and the 10 works good. With the skis they work fine on ice (but blades are better on clean ice), and they work really well on hard pack crystal snow and shallow snow. the snow can be a bit deeper as long as it's cold but you need a lot more power to get those skis moving, they don't glide like a regular ski or snowboard. In any damp snow or wet snow you stick a lot and it's tough to get going if at all.
Ziggy went to snowboards on the buggy and overall they get him going in more of the snow conditions and he has mounted a blade on the edges of the boards for side grip. He found the skis rode up over some snow conditions better just because the have a taller front end that rides up better especially when he rides the frozen lake front when the ice pack creates moguls to ride over. The snowboards get hung up on those conditions. The biggest thing is over coming the deeper snow or wet snow conditions - pulling the buggy out onto a lake with snowmobile skis in this conditions feels heavy and sticky - the power needed to get you moving will often pull you out of the buggy first.
A buddy of mine had built a press to make twin tips boards and snowboards and even short fat skis - too bad he quite doing it and gave the press to another buddy. I would love to have the time and $$ to try and make custom snowboards for buggies. When we discussed it a number of years ago my buddy said nobody is going to buy 3 custom boards to add to a buggy for the cost. i wanted to make some shorter/wider/straight edge snowboards similar to an Ocean Rodeo Mako twin tip with a concave bottom (from side to side) - that would always give a bit of edge but it's a little complex going from that concave to a flat and then upturned front but could be done ... just the cost and time to build as an experiment and really we get out far more standing on skis and snowboards and the buggy is a few times a winter.
Ziggy has made himself a set of studded tires to try out this winter as an option depending on lake conditions. We haven't gone back to these in a while, the first time when friends tried them they were okay, held on the crummy ice conditions we had, weren't as fast as blades but did okay and yes were noisy but fun




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