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Author: Subject: Depower or FB for Small Area?
vaultingbassist


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[*] posted on 6-17-2015 at 06:15 AM
Depower or FB for Small Area?


Hey All,

Even though I've been getting into the water side of the sport, I live very close to a park and want to continue landboarding. My problem is that the 10m Apex I bought is simply too big for the area I'm trying to board in. I hardly have any time in the window before I need to turn it around, and being 10m it turns much slower than my FB kites. Because of this, I've more or less stopped using it, and instead use my 3m twister. I like using the twister because it turns significantly faster, but of course it usually isn't enough power. I think I'd be okay with a larger FB, however the park I fly in does get gusty - where having depower would be more useful.

So, thoughts? Smaller depower or bigger FB? I'm eyeing IFlyKites Twister, especially if they're interested in owning an Apex :). Though I am a tad concerned that I'd have a large gap between the 3m and the 5.6m (I have a 4.5 crosskites quattro but honestly it seems to have the same power as the 3m).

Thanks,

Eamon

PS: I have seen the rave reviews here on the peak but that might be a little out of my price range if I can't find a used one.




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ssayre




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[*] posted on 6-17-2015 at 06:25 AM


the nasa stars work great for small areas because they sit deep in the window and provide great pulling power in grass. They turn quicker than any kite that I've flown. However, I had a 4 meter twister and I suspect the 5.6 would be great fun.
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Windstruck


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[*] posted on 6-17-2015 at 07:11 AM


I've been impressed with the Flysurfer Peak 2 for buggying. I use a 12M but they come in three smaller sizes too. It takes off in little wind and has predictable traction and tons of depower when you need it. I suspect the smaller Peak2's would turn faster than my 12M. It turns like a barge, but I for one don't find that a bad thing. I bought mine used from Chris at Hardwater (it was one of his kites he used in his school; maybe he has other smaller ones?).

Good luck!




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Born-Kite LongStar-2 (3.5m, 5.5m, 7.5m, 9.5m, 12.5m);
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RedSky


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[*] posted on 6-17-2015 at 07:53 AM


A 9m fuel has grunt and turns quick.
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IFlyKites


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[*] posted on 6-17-2015 at 09:38 AM


Honestly, I would get a smaller depower. You might have a hard time with a Twister in heavy winds. For me personally, it would make more sense to get a more turny depower as depower is the way to go with atb's. And it's understandable from my view why depowers are recommended for landboarders.

Did you take a look at the Ozone Access XT 4m for sale on extreme kites? Link: http://www.extremekites.com.au/topic/15054-ozone-access-xt-4... He's selling it for 460. I think that would be perfect for a depower, especially in a small area. The Nasa Star seems like a good option as well.

This is just my opinion. Others know way more than me on here; still learning myself. From what I learned from others is that depower is better for stronger winds as it would make sense. I'd think that flying a fixed bridle on an atb in heavy winds would be a nightmare, (getting pulled off the board all the time) with no option to depower the kite in case of sudden gust.
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BEC


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[*] posted on 6-17-2015 at 10:02 AM


FB on handles for a small area....



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ssayre




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[*] posted on 6-17-2015 at 10:07 AM


I tend to agree with BEC but I think the ultimate inland kite for atb in a tight area would be a peak 6m with a 5 meter line set when the wind is really cranking and a 20 or 25 meter line set for the mid to lighter stuff. You can cover a massive wind range with that kite.
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hiaguy


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[*] posted on 6-17-2015 at 10:42 AM


I fly in a "small" area, with nothing but gusty inland winds. The surface is grass, and is generally fairly long, which means that I need a little more kite to overcome the resistance.
I agree with BEC that FB is the best way to go for the space, but with winds that typically gust 2 to 2.5 times base wind, I have trouble sizing the right sail. If I size for the gust I'm underpowered for for the base wind.
My 5m and 7m Lynx' are quick-turning, especially in their higher wind ranges. The 9m can still be thrown around but I always have to be aware of the turning time. In lower breezes, I'll bring out the 11m, but unless I'm almost overpowered with it, it's still slow to turn.
If I had Bruce or Donnies hand/arm strength (and mad flying skills), I'd fly FB, but as it is, I still manage to have fun with the DP Lynx'.




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vaultingbassist


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[*] posted on 6-17-2015 at 12:29 PM


Hey everyone, thanks for the replies. I guess I can offer up additional details since it seems like every kind of kite was just recommended lol. I have been using my 3m twister in any wind, and I would keep it for days gusting upwards of 25-30. As it stands, for most of the wind I fly in (probably 10-20) I need something bigger. I'm considering a bigger twister because I love flying the one I have, however I suppose I should consider something less lifty since my spot does not have clean wind (while I have no interest in jumping big on land, I do think I'd like to learn some of the more interesting tricks that use a little 'hopping'). The field is also not super small, but it is whenever the wind comes in on the short ends or there are people out keeping me to a smaller section of the field.

IFlyKites - that access looks to be too small. I think I need something for the 10-20 (mph) range that doesn't take forever to move around.

Does anyone know if there is is much of an increase in turn speed with the apex 7.5? I'll admit that with winds gusting near 20 I was just too nervous with the 10, so maybe it'd be a good size for what I am looking for. Just watched some videos of folks flying it and it seems to move quite a bit quicker than what I experienced with the 10.




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ssayre




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[*] posted on 6-17-2015 at 12:42 PM


It comes down to whether you plan on flying quick impromptu sessions unhooked (fb's) or if you prefer to be hooked in than the answer would have to be depower for inland flying IMO. Which depower is the question. The guys out west that landboard in gusty conditions seem to gravitate to either LEI's and Peaks for their good depower range. Maybe they will chime in.
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[*] posted on 6-17-2015 at 12:52 PM


Good point on how long I'll be out. This would definitely be more on the impromptu session side. If I have a few hours available I'd probably try to get in the water instead.



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[*] posted on 6-17-2015 at 12:57 PM


i fly a 7.5 Apex....turns faster than anything i own except my fb stuff...but i think my frenzy turned quicker...till i blew it up



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[*] posted on 6-17-2015 at 01:47 PM


Take a look at the quivers of those who have commented and note the types they fly. The guys with FB quivers, that have conditions allowing them to fly FB, will usually be pro FB. In the conditions I fly in FB are a lesson in self hate. Nobody in my neck of the woods fly FB since about 2002/3.

Personally for my purposes FB small kites are not as versatile as small depows. We stopped using FB for teaching due to the lack of wind range and the confusion they cause when shifting to depows.

As much as I appreciate the feel and nimbleness of a FB but I don't see any advantage when you learn all the ins and outs of flying depows.

In gusty tight conditions there are a number of depows that will work well.




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ssayre




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[*] posted on 6-17-2015 at 02:24 PM


Feyd, I'll have to admit that I got rid of all my fb's and haven't looked back with the exception of missing them for static fun. Compared to the peak and the nasa stars (which are technically fixed bridle but not in the traditional sense) my fb's are virtually worthless for locomotion in my wind. They just can't keep me consistently moving on high resistance surface and variable wind unless flown grossly overpowered which makes hooking in dangerous. all that is to say 1 good depower is worth about 2 - 3 fb kites which is what's really needed inland or tractor pulling power of nasa wings. I've pretty much switched to using the peak in the buggy entirely and use the stars for street kiting. Really need the 9m peak and I would be set.

Edit: I did have great sessions with fb, but personally I had to fly unhooked and over powered (during gusts). It was also much better exorcise than what I've been getting.
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soliver




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[*] posted on 6-17-2015 at 04:19 PM


I think the Nasa Stars are probably a great choice... while they are not really truly depowerable, they would probably work well for landboard, they have a super tight turning radius, and handle the inland gusty stuff very well... kind of the best of both the FB and depow worlds.

But then again, a Peak would probably do the trick too.




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[*] posted on 6-17-2015 at 04:42 PM


I love longboard on pavement but I just can't get into landboard. Something about hitting a hole and smashing my face in the ground has scared me off. You can't see wrutts in the grass very easy on my usual fields.
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[*] posted on 6-17-2015 at 05:55 PM


I don't have personal experience with the Peak but your requirements seem to be exactly what the Peak is offering up.

Small, easy transport package.
Fast set up / pack up.
Good design for gusty winds.
A certain amount of boost on demand, if you want to go there.

I personally am getting by fine in a very small park (with nice clean wind ) in 10 - 20 with my 15m Synergy. It just fails your fast set up needs.




Kites: 2.5m Profoil , 4.9m QuadrifoilXL kitesurfer, 9m Flexi Blade II, NPW 5 Danger.
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Rides: Flexi / P.L. Frankin'Buggy , Shaped + straight skiis, sand skis, Coyote blades. Core 95 ATB. RKB R2 ATB .

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[*] posted on 6-17-2015 at 07:26 PM


Quote: Originally posted by hiaguy  
but with winds that typically gust 2 to 2.5 times base wind, I have trouble sizing the right sail. If I size for the gust I'm underpowered for for the base wind.


Very well said Howard and great argument for depower.
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[*] posted on 6-18-2015 at 04:37 AM


My feeling is most people, unless the live somewhere coastal, are in a similar boat as hiaguy. Myself included. Our gust factor is almost always 100%+ whatever the base wind is. It makes FB a real chore to fly at best. Gusty conditions are all relative to your location I suppose. While doing a demo for Peter Lynn at Cocoa Beach I heard some locals complaining about the gusty conditions. I measured it at a 3-5kt increase in windspeedn in the gusts. It really illustrate why some kiters who come up here to ride get discouraged by the Ind conditions. Really its simply a matter of having the right gear and being willing to work your butt off to learn to fly in the gusty. The Peak, Ozone Access, both pack down to nothing and handle gusts and of course Peter Lynn Arcs are still a consumate gust handler and all are good options (tho as mentioned the Arc kills set up time).Gusty conditions can be fun but you have to really work for it. Learning to fly in gusty is a lot easier with the luxury of open space to work in. No everyone has access to that.



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[*] posted on 6-18-2015 at 02:12 PM


Just read through this entire thread and want to memorize it! The original question was something I could have put out there myself...exact same situation! My limited quiver has gotten me around in the jankiness of Hudson Valley winds but I'm constantly looking for the one or two ideal kites for this area.

I still feel like the FB's are the way to go as I need some serious space to feel comfortable with the Apex 7.5...Brandon, I know you like it but I need to get more time under its ropes to get the "barge-like" turning figured out. I can whip the Rage or even the 5m Hornet around twice as fast.

Not looking for any lift really so the Reactor or even Twister may be too much...anyone have history with a PL Toxic?...I guess its a medium aspect design.

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ssayre




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[*] posted on 6-18-2015 at 04:07 PM


Hq makes toxic. Most of the people that have them say they don't fair well in less than clean wind.
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Mood: skeptical yet hopeful...thnx Ines

[*] posted on 6-18-2015 at 07:51 PM


HQ Toxic....ok thanks, that's not what I want then. It's coming down as a process of elimination to find the better performing kites in unclean wind. I'll keep an eye on this thread! The Peak seems to be a popular option as are the npw's. I wouldn't mind giving either one a try for getting mobile around here.



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[*] posted on 6-19-2015 at 08:16 AM


I've had an arc and various fb foils from low to high ar. The Nasa stars and peak are by far the most effective weapon for continuous kite powered locomotion in challenging wind IMO. I've never tried an open cell depower like the apex you have so I can't comment on how those compare. If you really like flying fb, your hornets are really good. My boss has the latest hornet 4m (which he never flies and I'm always trying to buy from him) and I've flown it and it's very stable and a great kite for fb flying in our wind.
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[*] posted on 6-19-2015 at 08:59 AM


Quote: Originally posted by ssayre  
If you really like flying fb, your hornets are really good.

Not in my sig, but I also have the 2m, 3m and 4m Hornets, and when I'm static flying, they're more forgiving of crap wind than my PL Cores are. I've used them in the buggy, but found that I needed more upwind ability. They're certainly easy to throw around. Josh (my son) has used the Hornets at WBB for boarding and his only complaint was about their speed/power vs. the Cores.

Is this decision getting any easier?




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Howard KC67 NAPKA District #12 Representative
Fly: A quiver of Lynx' and Cores and a Rev to remind me about control (did someone say "Pansh"?)
Ride: PL XR+ with BigKid AQR
Where: 43.857899, -78.941661 and 38.970951, -74.828922
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ssayre




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[*] posted on 6-19-2015 at 09:16 AM


Upwind ability is lost on me. My spots are square fields so all I need is to be well powered and I can make it back to where I started with any kite
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[*] posted on 6-19-2015 at 07:44 PM


I'm definitely going to recommend the NS3s (though really any NPW would be good).

I regularly fly in spaces where regular length lines would be too long and where the wind is incredibly gusty. I often have lulls where you can't feel the wind and then gusts up to 10-20mph. I can't imagine any kite would get me moving better than my 8.5m NS3 on 10m lines. If there's enough wind to possibly get you moving then the NS3 will move. However, despite being pretty large it'll still turn really well. I can loop it on my 10m lines, but I can't say that's easy. Since they're so low AR they also feel very safe even when flying very over-powered. I used to fly my old 6m NPW in gusts that I estimate would be around 20-25mph. While that was exhausting it never felt scary.

The Nasa Stars also have the advantage of being really affordable new and being incredibly easy to setup. I don't think you can find a better value in the kiting world.

If I were in your shoes the only other option I'd consider would be a Peak. I've never flow one to compare against, but I imagine they might be a bit more fun if you could afford them.

Edit: Realized my NS3 is 8.5m, not 10.5




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[*] posted on 6-19-2015 at 08:06 PM


Peaks are fun but if space is limited I would go nasa star or npw all day long. They turn so good. Well said rofer
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[*] posted on 6-23-2015 at 07:52 PM


Picked up a 4m Twister because of how much I love my 3m, but definitely still considering the NS2-3s. Time to read through all the NASA Star threads I suppose :)



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[*] posted on 6-24-2015 at 04:45 PM


I hope you aren't planning on using the Twister to satisfy your wish to boost air? It will lift you, no problem. Then it will drop you like a rock if you don't get the redirection right. I don't even make it a practice to jump with 5m fixed bridle but that sort of a minimum size to get anything like float.

It looks by the wind chart that you are OK for the 20kt. gusts. ALWAYS size for the gusts. It is the 10 - 15 part of your desires that will be a struggle.

I don't know if there is a single size NS3 that is good for 10 - 20? They won't allow you boost. I still think you want to look into a Peak to satisfy your full list of desires?




Kites: 2.5m Profoil , 4.9m QuadrifoilXL kitesurfer, 9m Flexi Blade II, NPW 5 Danger.
Flysurfer : 19m Speed 2 SA, 7m Pulse
Peter Lynn :18m Phantom, 15m Synergy, 10m Synergy, 1200 Farc, 460 Sarc, 130 Tarc, 5m Peel, 4.2m , 6.4, 8.5 C-Quads

Rides: Flexi / P.L. Frankin'Buggy , Shaped + straight skiis, sand skis, Coyote blades. Core 95 ATB. RKB R2 ATB .

Ken (K2)
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ssayre




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[*] posted on 6-24-2015 at 04:59 PM


true true blade. the nasa's don't necessarily have a wide wind range per size 10-20 knots you would need at least a 4 meter and 7 meter. Which I think makes a good 2 kite quiver of nasa stars.
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