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Author: Subject: Hardwater Kiting Long Term Review 2015 Ozone Access
Feyd


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[*] posted on 11-13-2015 at 05:28 AM


Ha, its been a while since anyone implied that I'm being somehow dishonest.
Thanks for the kind words Ssayre and Windstruck. I appreciate it.

To be fair, our reports on the Peak offer some pretty remarkable opinions and results. Claims that if someone I didn't know made to me, never having flown kite XYZ, I'd be skeptical of as well.

Windrider1, or gemini something or other, as I have recently been looking for the raw footage for someone else( to demonstrate the Access kite's Re-ride function in high winds) and come up empty handed I'm afraid that I can't show you footage from the day we did the comparison. Which Sux because it was some pretty wild footage. But I have a lot of footage on a lot of drives and sometimes I don't label things as well as I should. It provides me endless frustration. To be sure.:evil:

As is often stated in our reviews, certain performance parameters of a given kite can and will be met when flown by riders of a certain skill level. IF you don't have adequate piloting skills, you aren't going to fly anything in 40kts.

If you have "heard" that the Peak 4m cannot be manageable in 40kt gusts then its likely that the individual(s) who "claim otherwise" as kiters, fall into the description above.

Its not a reflection on the kite IMO.

Being able to manage the Peak or any other kite in wind ranges beyond the factory spec does not mean its ideal, usually its a lot of work and brutal, but doable none the less. We like to test these kites in these conditions to show what they are capable of in the extreme ends of their use spectrum. If the kite doesn't want to kill me in gusts 40kts+ it should be really nice to me in the recommended wind range.

Having flown the 6m peak 1 in gusts up to 40kts plus, which there is footage of me doing so at nearly 70MPH, on our YouTube channel, and flying in similar but more turbulent conditions on the 4m, I am confident in my assessment the smaller 4m peaks high wind ability.

The bottom line is this. You only live in New York. If you want to see these kites in action first hand for yourself and eliminate any doubt about me or my claims you are more than welcome to come ride with us up here in New Hampshire. We'd be more than happy to show you around, fly some kites and put you doubts to rest. It's worth the trip I assure you. ;)

Further discussion on this topic, if any, should be continued either on the Peak thread or Peak review.







Chris Krug-Owner @ Hardwater Kiting. Authorized Dealer of Ozone, HQ and Flysurfer kites.
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[*] posted on 11-13-2015 at 05:35 AM


Hey Feyd can you answer my question on the 6m/4m Access... Will the bar and lines from a 2015 Orange 6m Access work with a brand new 4m Access V6 purchased as kite only?

We are expecting 30mph this weekend with gusts up to 40-45 and I don't have loads of experience in high winds. I'm in a big heavy buggy though. I think I'll give the 6m Access a try even though my buddy says I will need a 4m in those winds.




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[*] posted on 11-13-2015 at 05:40 AM


Yes. They have made some changes to the Re-ride for 2016 but those are only at the bar. The kites are cross compatible.;)



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Feyd


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[*] posted on 11-13-2015 at 09:28 AM


An update on the stopper ball question. I've been testing the Access sans Stopper. Obviously the system works as it relies on being attached to your leash to kill the power. The downside is that it allows the bar to head out but eliminates the ability to pull the bar back in to Re-Ride. :rolleyes: Soooooo, if you don't use the Re-Ride for anything but emergencies, it's pretty sweet not having the stoppers. If you regularly use the reride to launch and land, keep the PITA stoppers.

As I stated a while back Chrono 2's and R1's we've seen do not come with stoppers. That's because of IKA regs and the kites we have we ordered with the race bars which are mandated to have complete flag out.

There needs to be a better stopper ball. Maybe not a ball at all but something less tangly.




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[*] posted on 11-13-2015 at 10:14 AM


aha the footage has mysteriously disappeared. we need to get a good private eye on this case. :lol: or may be I will look up some of my own footage of the 4m's bad behavior to post when I have time. In all fairness I flew the 6m and it flew ok.



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[*] posted on 11-15-2015 at 02:07 AM


Hey Feyd I was hoping to go out with my 6m Access today but the winds are 32mph with gusts up to a gnarly 47mph. Don't fancy my chances with the 6m with my experience, I've never been out in REALLY high winds.

So my question.... Could the lines on the Access be doubled back like you've mentioned on another thread, to give me an option for nuking winds?

I don't really have the funds for a 4m just to use in these once or twice a year conditions.




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[*] posted on 11-15-2015 at 04:39 AM


Yes. On Re-ride equipped kites the tricky part to half lining is the Re Ride line. After you've done the four main lines you'll see what I mean. Its easy to do but not as straight forward as the other 4. I'd post a pic but I'm not near the kites ATM.



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[*] posted on 11-15-2015 at 12:14 PM


Thanks Chris! I managed it. Like you said it wasn't obvious how to do the re-ride lines. I ended up putting a stopper knot on the end I detached from the kite, I'm sure there is a better way!

I didn't have a good time with it on half lines. To be honest I had no business trying to fly in that wind. 25mph and I recorded 45mph gusts on my wind meter. I quickly gave up, it was way too lively on short lines in that wind. I had no time to react to it moving so fast.

I got to try my friend's 4m Access instead. It's an older model, probably XC I think with the top hat safety.

I didn't have any better time of it. Thought I was doing OK but then had a massive OBE followed by some serious draggage. Probably pilot error, I was having a hard time transitioning without getting REALLY powered up.

I packed up, I'll leave buggying in 45mph to the big boys for now!!!




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[*] posted on 11-15-2015 at 12:20 PM


gusting 40's I reserve for my 2.5 nasa star on short lines unhooked. Even then I have bent my bar and can't ride very long because im taking the load on my arms. If I had that wind often, I would get a 1.5 meter nasa star. John Holegate has a video riding comfortably hooked in and in very high wind with that set up. Looks fun.
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[*] posted on 11-15-2015 at 01:52 PM


I've had my 4m Access XT out in 30 knots on a couple of occasions - it keeps me on my toes (so to speak) and will punish me with any errors really FAST. I think as buggiers, we have to keep in mind that snowkiters are generally using their kites a lot higher in the window (I think) and their skis are attached so the odd little loft is not so much of a problem. Having said that, I've never snowkited so please feel free to correct me.

Faced with 30knots now, I'd put up the 1.5m NS2. 35 knots and I'm heading to the cafe for a coffee.




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[*] posted on 11-15-2015 at 02:35 PM


In 40’s I fly 1.5 reduced to 1.2 on LONG lines always hooked in, one-handed – I feel very uncomfortable unhooked with the pull on both arms twisting the upper body. One of the reasons I gave up on short lines on Nasas was the difficulty in handling overpowering, gusty and shifty conditions – there is just not enough distance (and therefore time) between the edge of the window and its centre. (The other reason was the impossibility of doing a decent, powered up jibe what is important to me). When seriously powered up, the kite will be parked low at the edge of the window and the longer lines have no effect on the generated force – the kite is just further away from the kiter – that’s it. The advantage of longer lines is at the lower end when a lot of extra power can be generated more efficiently by skilful flying thus providing a surprisingly wide depower range between flying and parking. I generally try to keep my kites low, high only in passing, and certainly do not linger up high unnecessarily long – this way I have never been lofted in 20 years of kiting.
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[*] posted on 11-15-2015 at 02:39 PM


Thanks for the input Prussik. sounds like good advice.
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[*] posted on 11-16-2015 at 06:02 AM


Having never been in a buggy I have don't have a solid concept of how certain aspects of flying certain kites come into play. But I think in general most of what we all experience is for the most part cross compatible but no doubt some adaption is required. For example on ice or other hard snow conditions, the ability to maintain an edge and the resulting lack of downwind drift allows us to pull off a lot of things that a rider on other surfaces e.g. Water, sand, grass cannot.

I like PrussiS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s approach with the Nasa's. As with any flying in unusual conditions I bet it is highly reliant on top notch piloting skills to take full advantage.


Robin. It takes some time to get used to flying the kite half lined. Throwing yourself right into the conditions that warrant it most probably isn't the best decision.:P But at least it give you some sense of how it works. To be clear, half lining is a great way to deal with high wind situations in a pinch but very few kites fly really well half lined. Arcs and Peaks IMO do it best. The most recent Access, Frenzy and Summit Ozones do it very well. HQ Apex 4's on the other hand, take a little more effort. But still very doable. I got trapped about 3 miles out on the 11m Apex and halflining was the only reason I was able to make it back. Wasn't fun but doable.

John. On snow it depends on the rider, the surface and what they want to do. For me I like the kite deep in the window and down low (see pic). Most won't ride so low because it tends to pull one of one's edge. If the surface is really rough and chundery or deep powder I ride the kite higher to reduce my weight on the surface and allow for more of a skimming effect. In the gusty conditions low keeps me from being lofted and allows for some really great sprints.

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[*] posted on 11-16-2015 at 07:05 AM


Feyd , thanks for the tips you bring on this forum , this is very kind from you .
About halflining , I could'nt find where you talked about it , do you mean that you carry shorter lines along with you or : you manage to shorten the existing ones.
Also , from your experiments , if you switch to shorter ones , what is the shortest lenght works the best on ozone kites .

I used to play with it and it did not work too good , maybe I was trying too shorts back then . If I remember well I had around 10 meters.




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[*] posted on 11-16-2015 at 07:15 AM


never tried half or short line on anything other than peak and nasa which work great. Good advice from feyd to practice short line before you really need it. Transitions are different and getting used to kite behavior on short lines take a couple sessions to lock in muscle memory.
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[*] posted on 11-16-2015 at 07:50 AM


Quote: Originally posted by windrider1  
I will look up some of my own footage of the 4m's bad behavior to post


Stay tuned buttercup. I was on Lake Ivanpah yesterday buggying with my 4m P2 in the strongest winds of my life (up around 30 mph with gusts well over that). Peak held steady as a rock. I've got quite a bit of GoPro footage from a helmet mount. I'll post it later this week once I get home. It will be edited for stylistic purposes but there won't be any crap left on the editing room floor as she was a darling the entire time.

Most importantly, I felt SAFE and confident using this kite as the engine under those conditions. She was a lot easier to fly than my 2.5m NS3 which was fine when held steady, but is so incredibly fast (for me) that I crashed it a few times into the Playa when I just made small pilot errors with the bar.

Something I was extremely pleased with was how effective using the trim line was during takeoff and landing. I cranked the trim line all the way in before take off, gave her a shake and she lept off the Playa and screamed up to zenith with almost no pull. It made me laugh out loud. I didn't know what was going to happen but I did not think it would be so effortless to get it into the air. With the kite at zenith and pretty much no pull I just sat down in my buggy let out the trim line to about three inches from all the way out (my standard flying setting), dropped her into the power zone and ZOOM.

So... Let's please stop crapping on this wonderful little kite. Remember, sometimes when the arrow misses its mark the issue is not with the bow but rather the archer. :saint:




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[*] posted on 11-16-2015 at 08:29 AM


Real quick. I just came in from flying our new 2016 Access 4m. Found some changes that was not made aware of by Ozone. Nothing major, nothing that changes how the kite flies, just refinements to the Re-Ride. I was going to fly all of them but was only able to fly the 4m due to gust factor (gusts to about 25kt+).

I forgot to bring the GoPro. Would have been good Re-Ride demo conditions.

I still cannot get over how well these kites handle janky winds or how well they fly when depowed. Just a joy to fly.




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[*] posted on 11-16-2015 at 08:31 AM


Feyd, please reserve comments for the access in the access thread please. Oh wait, this is the access thread :P
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[*] posted on 11-16-2015 at 08:34 AM


Feyd...is the newer model way better behaved than the old model circa 2010? Just wondered as I got pretty beat up yesterday by my buddy's old 4m Access. He was fine with it, as I said earlier on this thread it was probably just pilot error and my own lack of high wind experience. I need to build my way up to the wind I was mad enough to go out in yesterday. Obviously the re-ride is a major improvement but I just wondered if the actual kite characteristics are different on the 2015/2016 kite?



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[*] posted on 11-16-2015 at 10:19 AM


Half lining ?. I fail to see how shorter lines can reduce the kite power in overpowering conditions. The kite is already parked low with the same orientation and wind exposure, the only difference being the distance to the kiter. Unless you shorten the lines to the point of affecting the projected area. And the turbulence is easier to handle - in my opinion - on longer lines.
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[*] posted on 11-16-2015 at 11:03 AM


That's exactly what is being done Prussik.:P. We lengthen to get more power out of a given kite, shorten to diminish.

You can imagine the difference between 21m and then shorten to 10.5m. Our Flysurfer Virons come with lines that are modular, essentially just a series of extensions, for this very reason.

Yes Robin there is a considerable difference. The 2010 Access was a great kite but was little better than the HQ Apex at the time IMO. More refined but didn't do enough for me to warrant the extra $$$. We really saw a big difference in 2012/13. Thats where Ozone really made strides with the Access. It does everything better now IMO. It's very user friendly without being boring.

Ssayer, you tricked me. I scrolled up to make sure I was in the right place.




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[*] posted on 11-27-2015 at 11:26 AM
Viron compare?


Hey Chris
Your mention of the Viron - how does that compare to the access in similar sizes? Good in strong winds? Gusts?

Thanks
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[*] posted on 11-28-2015 at 05:19 AM


The Viron2 DLX is an interesting kite. Very similar high wind performance to the Access. In fact side by side the 4m versions of both kites feel nearly identical. Initially I was told the original Viron wasn't suited for serious high wind use but that seems to have changed with the current version. The wind ranges on the Viron are easily on par with the Access, with some slight edge on the low end due to the DLX material.

Gust handling is about the same. The Access is a faster turning kite slightly.

For a skilled pilot, who is not likely to whip the kite in during a high wind session, I think the Viron can be a dream to flynin high winds. But as a closed cell, ultra light material kite, she may not be the best kite to crash in those conditions. As opposed to the Access which is not only open cell but has blow out vents in the event you whip in leading edge down.

We use the smaller Virons as school kites for our smallest/lightest riders. They are super easy to fly and depower much like a @ Peak 2. And the auto relaunch is really nice for beginners. Though for advanced riders in high winds the kites willingness to launch, even when you don't want it to, can be nerve wracking. Not an issue with the bar out but still.

The Viron, like the Access, is a great kite in high winds. But I would suggest a little more care when flying it in nasty stuff.




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[*] posted on 11-29-2015 at 01:59 AM


Thanks Chris
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[*] posted on 1-13-2016 at 08:56 PM


I got to snowkite with my 6m Access V6 for the first time today. While it was underpowered with the winds in the low 20s I got enough of a taste of it to realize its incredible potential as a high wind storm kite. It almost felt like cheating having a kite so well behaved in the air. The ReRide system is dynamite under these conditions. I used the cross strap to bring the kite down to the ground and then popped the chicken loop to deploy the ReRide and keep the kite from moving across the snow while I wound up the lines. SWEET.

I got this kite from Chris at Hardwater and I'm darn glad I did. I will have a lot of confidence launching this kite in BIG winds this winter. Thanks Chris!

A guy kiting at the same spot I was at today had the Ozone Summit up (I think the 12m) He was having a blast with it and his boosts looked really predictable and tons of fun. This spot has lots of undulations and "features" that I was launching off of with my 12m P2. First (purposeful) air I ever got. Now that I got a taste, Daddy wants more! :evil:




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Born-Kite StreetStar (4.0m)
Born-Kite RaceStar (size TBD)

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Peter Lynn Bigfoot+ modified with VTT rail & seat kit (a seriously great performance upgrade), two sets of Sysmic rims (one set with BigFoot slicks for "beach" of Great Salt Lake and other set with 6-ply trailer tires for Ivanpah playa), and BigKidKites AQR (because it keeps me in my buggy and in my marriage)

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[*] posted on 1-14-2016 at 07:04 AM


Ha! Glad to hear it. Yesterday I got out a bit on the 6m myself while doing post storm site inspections up north. Man did they nail the forecast and I was psyched to have the 6m. I took a look at 11am (screen shot convinced me to go) and I got to the riding area about noon. Pretty small lake, visibility due to the drifting snow was well below 1/4 mile when the gusts came through. Felt very much like the day we did the Peak/Access comparison. Measured the wind for about 5 minutes and varied 18kts to 28kts. Thought the forecast was off. Opted to hedge my bet and grabbed the 6m Access (was going to grab the 7m R1) and set it up. About 2 minutes into riding a wall of white, looked like it was boiling, came at me from the west. Had to be about 35-40kts. Then it continued for about an hour that way.

Actually had to fully trim the 6m and put her to the window's edge. It's only the second time I've had to fully trim that kite. Even at it's worse I never felt concerned while on that kite. Can't stress enough how a kite like that changes your whole perspective of high wind days.

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[*] posted on 1-14-2016 at 08:00 AM


Quote: Originally posted by Feyd  
Ha! Glad to hear it. Yesterday I got out a bit on the 6m myself while doing post storm site inspections up north. Man did they nail the forecast and I was psyched to have the 6m. I took a look at 11am (screen shot convinced me to go) and I got to the riding area about noon. Pretty small lake, visibility due to the drifting snow was well below 1/4 mile when the gusts came through. Felt very much like the day we did the Peak/Access comparison. Measured the wind for about 5 minutes and varied 18kts to 28kts. Thought the forecast was off. Opted to hedge my bet and grabbed the 6m Access (was going to grab the 7m R1) and set it up. About 2 minutes into riding a wall of white, looked like it was boiling, came at me from the west. Had to be about 35-40kts. Then it continued for about an hour that way.

Actually had to fully trim the 6m and put her to the window's edge. It's only the second time I've had to fully trim that kite. Even at it's worse I never felt concerned while on that kite. Can't stress enough how a kite like that changes your whole perspective of high wind days.



Great stuff Chris. So glad you had a good day.




Kites:
Born-Kite LongStar-2 (3.5m, 5.5m, 7.5m, 9.5m, 12.5m)
Born-Kite NasaStar-3 (1.5m, 2.5m, 3.2m, 4.0m)
Born-Kite StreetStar (4.0m)
Born-Kite RaceStar (size TBD)

Buggy:
Peter Lynn Bigfoot+ modified with VTT rail & seat kit (a seriously great performance upgrade), two sets of Sysmic rims (one set with BigFoot slicks for "beach" of Great Salt Lake and other set with 6-ply trailer tires for Ivanpah playa), and BigKidKites AQR (because it keeps me in my buggy and in my marriage)

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Windstruck


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Mood: You say "Born in a Barn" like it's a bad thing!

[*] posted on 2-13-2016 at 05:49 PM


Had to 6m Access out for a lively and super fun Snowkite session today. Man, what a sweet kite! I'm glad I wasn't borderline so overpowered today because I'd telemarked the past three days and my legs were a little tuckered out.

Man the Re-Ride system is the deal for Snowkiting! About every 10 minutes or so I'd just reach out and grab the fifth line and haul it in about 2 meters. This doesn't take any large amount of force. The kite just crumples and collapses on the ground with no pull. Great for resting tired legs. I found that the kite tends to end up sitting on the snow nose down when I did this. When it was time to go again I just let go of the 5th line and it played back out on its own. A simple tug on the brake line cross strap and away you go!

Same deal when you pack it up; just crumple it down on the snow, wrap the slack in the 5th line around the bar and then fig-8 your lines standing right where you are, drawing the kite towards you on the snow. It has just enough pull to put some tension on the lines so they go nice and snug on the bar.

Now that I've got Ozone re-ride kites in 6, 9, and 15m sizes I just may use them exclusively for Snowkiting. My single skins will then become my buggy and skate engines in the non-winter months. Dialed in and stoked!




Kites:
Born-Kite LongStar-2 (3.5m, 5.5m, 7.5m, 9.5m, 12.5m)
Born-Kite NasaStar-3 (1.5m, 2.5m, 3.2m, 4.0m)
Born-Kite StreetStar (4.0m)
Born-Kite RaceStar (size TBD)

Buggy:
Peter Lynn Bigfoot+ modified with VTT rail & seat kit (a seriously great performance upgrade), two sets of Sysmic rims (one set with BigFoot slicks for "beach" of Great Salt Lake and other set with 6-ply trailer tires for Ivanpah playa), and BigKidKites AQR (because it keeps me in my buggy and in my marriage)

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robinsonpr


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[*] posted on 2-14-2016 at 01:09 AM


Nice stoke Steve! I've also got one to share from yesterday involving my 6m Access. I had a monster buggy session. Finally got a decent onshore wind at a beach I can drive to (3 hours drive though!). It was pretty windy, 26mph gusting into 30s. My smallest kite is the 6m as the 4m hasnt arrived yet. My buddy was on his 4m and having a blast. I was on the 6m, well lit. I had it trimmed all the way in at the cleat, still handled nice. It didn't scare me too much, even in the gusts. And the re ride. Yes! My friend popped the top hat on the 4 to land it but the thing still wanted to fly on the back lines! I simply pulled the magic 2 metres through the chicken loop and down she came. Did you see there's a little split in the 5th line so you can hook it over your bar end? When I was ready to go again the kite opened up nicely when I let the 5th go. Perfect. I did 108 miles, top speed of 46.3mph. Well chuffed with that!!



Rev 1.5 SLE
PL Pepper 1.5m, Twister III 3m
Flysurfer Peak I 6m, Peak II 12m
Ozone Access V6 6m, 4m incoming!
Arcs Venom 13m, Synergy 15m
LEIs Slingshot Rally 7m, 9, 12m
Kheo Flyer Landboard
PTW SuperBug II
Nobile NHP Carbon Split
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Windstruck


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Mood: You say "Born in a Barn" like it's a bad thing!

[*] posted on 2-14-2016 at 06:31 AM


Quote: Originally posted by robinsonpr  
Nice stoke Steve! I've also got one to share from yesterday involving my 6m Access. I had a monster buggy session. Finally got a decent onshore wind at a beach I can drive to (3 hours drive though!). It was pretty windy, 26mph gusting into 30s. My smallest kite is the 6m as the 4m hasnt arrived yet. My buddy was on his 4m and having a blast. I was on the 6m, well lit. I had it trimmed all the way in at the cleat, still handled nice. It didn't scare me too much, even in the gusts. And the re ride. Yes! My friend popped the top hat on the 4 to land it but the thing still wanted to fly on the back lines! I simply pulled the magic 2 metres through the chicken loop and down she came. Did you see there's a little split in the 5th line so you can hook it over your bar end? When I was ready to go again the kite opened up nicely when I let the 5th go. Perfect. I did 108 miles, top speed of 46.3mph. Well chuffed with that!!


THAT'S WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT!

That sounds like a GREAT session indeed. That much wind would have had you lit for sure. Good thing you now have that new monster buggy ride of yours. I've flown my 15m Summit with the cleat adjustment all the way in and it too flew well without complaints.

The 12m Peak2 as you may have found out by now will fly fully trimmed but it won't behave as well as the Ozones fully trimmed. The Peak gets a bow in it along the leading edge and seems to get a little huffy under such duress. Single skin versus double.

Yup, well aware of that little line split. The way I pack up is I draw the 5th line in to land the kite, hook the line split over the end of the bar, wrap the excess 5th line around the bar out near where I hooked the line split and then figure-8 the rest, pulling the kite towards me on the snow. Easy peasy nice and easy. :karate:




Kites:
Born-Kite LongStar-2 (3.5m, 5.5m, 7.5m, 9.5m, 12.5m)
Born-Kite NasaStar-3 (1.5m, 2.5m, 3.2m, 4.0m)
Born-Kite StreetStar (4.0m)
Born-Kite RaceStar (size TBD)

Buggy:
Peter Lynn Bigfoot+ modified with VTT rail & seat kit (a seriously great performance upgrade), two sets of Sysmic rims (one set with BigFoot slicks for "beach" of Great Salt Lake and other set with 6-ply trailer tires for Ivanpah playa), and BigKidKites AQR (because it keeps me in my buggy and in my marriage)

NAPKA Member US2815
SWATK Member UT00003
View user's profile View All Posts By User
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