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Author: Subject: 14' Hobie cat
blturner




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[*] posted on 12-29-2014 at 03:12 PM
14' Hobie cat


I have decided to get a kite to pull my boat around.
I have a lot of experience with an old 8' flexifoil stacker power kite I got back in the 1990s.
I could use come help deciding on how big a kite to get and if kite surfing training would apply to kite boating.

I am thinking that I should get a small 6 meter or so to start with and an 11 meter or so for best fun in typical 12 mph winds we get here in the Kansas City area.

Longer lines to get the kite up high enough to reach the winds that are not blocked by the hills that always surround the lakes in this region. But I don't know if longer lines would make the kite too sluggish. I am thinking 50 to 75 meters.

I don't really understand how a kite bar can cost $450. Makes me think I am missing something. I have to make something to hook the kite to the boat and that means that I need to understand the de-powering and any other functions of the kite bar.

Total weight of the boat and 2 people should be about 500 lbs

I don't think that a 6 Meter would be able to flip the boat unless the wind was over 20 mph. That should let me and my co-pilot get our act together before things get too risky.

Brian
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ssayre




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[*] posted on 12-29-2014 at 03:16 PM


Sounds cool. The advice you seek is over my head but I hope you get some video when get going. Someone more qualified will chime in.
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[*] posted on 12-29-2014 at 05:29 PM


I also been thinking about a kite boat. I been sailing for over 50 years and I think a kite is a
good way to go. I plan on making me about a 12M2 NPW for a 16 foot john boat I have here.
it is 6 foot wide and I could put some dagger boards on it and a rudder. I don't think you have to worry about the boat flipping, all the force is coming for above. What I was thinking was to put about 1 foot or 18 inches mast with a T on top where the lines from the kite will connect to the boat. Than you can rotate the T part of the mast to fly the kite. here is bad set of plans. I am no artist. If you need any help that I can give you, let me know
renny

kite boat.JPG - 20kB
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PHREERIDER


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[*] posted on 12-30-2014 at 09:53 AM


Quote: Originally posted by blturner  
I have decided to get a kite to pull my boat around.
I have a lot of experience with an old 8' flexifoil stacker power kite I got back in the 1990s.
I could use come help deciding on how big a kite to get and if kite surfing training would apply to kite boating.

I am thinking that I should get a small 6 meter or so to start with and an 11 meter or so for best fun in typical 12 mph winds we get here in the Kansas City area.

Longer lines to get the kite up high enough to reach the winds that are not blocked by the hills that always surround the lakes in this region. But I don't know if longer lines would make the kite too sluggish. I am thinking 50 to 75 meters.

I don't really understand how a kite bar can cost $450. Makes me think I am missing something. I have to make something to hook the kite to the boat and that means that I need to understand the de-powering and any other functions of the kite bar.

Total weight of the boat and 2 people should be about 500 lbs

I don't think that a 6 Meter would be able to flip the boat unless the wind was over 20 mph. That should let me and my co-pilot get our act together before things get too risky.

Brian


ok considerable endeavor , yes kitesurf skills would make what will seem a daunting task MUCH easier.

for tube piloting fewer skill for sure, but for foil operation really would need to be flawless error free piloting. the kite you need is gonna big and slow, but once up to speed, where it all flows, is fast and speed control is kite rudder dance that makes regular cat flying seem like kindergarten.

and considerable size for what your asking 14m -16m range is gonna make good sailing power anything smaller is going to be a sit and wait for air kinda day. the boat would choke a 6 just by rudder action alone.

the element your missing is speed . the threshold for power involves speed (v. low speed power with even slower big foil). with right setup you WANT a SPEEDY ride , slow is kinda of rescue ride may not even be up wind. faster than most fearless pilots care to stitch together let alone with a passenger, who would have to rudder the unit or pilot the kite.

long lines... without a mountain of time piloting in light air on the water the kite will be in water in matter of moments.

keeping the boat DOWN and speedy ....and by the way 14' cat and 2 people is twice the limit on a regular surf bar kit(limits around 275 lbs.) without JUMPING it really would not matter(until you reach about 15knts for speed)
this just gives you a picture of the direction your headed.

what you really need could be x2x3 the money for that kinda weight.

in flat water <15mph , there can be fun, but really gets fast , and a faster gets messy. be careful. you really need to be way more than just some kitesurf training.

this is definitely in the EXTREME category . even a little error can tear the boat apart and body parts with it .







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[*] posted on 12-30-2014 at 01:21 PM


we need film...that's all im gonna say



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sadsack


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[*] posted on 12-30-2014 at 03:58 PM


here some stuff to watch

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjUEq6yhX-s


:lol:
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PHREERIDER


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[*] posted on 12-30-2014 at 04:59 PM




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIXwWvXJTg8



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yPE7PackL3A

a little more what things are going to look like , looks 10-15mph maybe less in first vid




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[*] posted on 12-30-2014 at 09:33 PM


I'm thinking of something a lot less ambitious. Maybe a 3-4m NPW on one of my windsurf boards or an SUP. Working on the kite part of it. Check out esp. about 3:10 and 6:50. I'll edit it down and post a better video later.





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[*] posted on 12-31-2014 at 01:41 PM


and here is a another video with a modified cat hull to add foils and solo pilot (different from the larger vessel with Don and the crew in San Francisco)

http://vimeo.com/115193997




Mark Groshens NAPKA KC 13
WindSpeed kites & design - Canada
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blturner




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[*] posted on 1-2-2015 at 08:39 AM


Markite, I had not seen that one. That looks a lot more advanced than anything else I have seen. More than I am looking to do at this point.
Randy, I think I will stick with an LEI kite. Cost more but I think it's more reliable.
Sadsack, I think that a kite powered johnboat sounds fun but should be in it's own thread.

PhreeRider, thanks for the information. Looks like the videos also say that a larger kite is the way to go.

I did not know about the surf bar weight limit. Does the bar typically include the lines. I know the lines would need to be larger. At some point the kite might get overstressed.
I figure that I will need to make my own bar anyway. Hooking to the boat looks safer and that is a not a configuration that works with a standard kite bar.
Looks like I should start with standard length lines if that means easier control. Then extend them after that.

Thanks Guys, I will keep you posted.
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markite


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[*] posted on 1-2-2015 at 09:00 AM


Quote: Originally posted by Randy  
I'm thinking of something a lot less ambitious. Maybe a 3-4m NPW on one of my windsurf boards or an SUP. Working on the kite part of it. Check out esp. about 3:10 and 6:50. I'll edit it down and post a better video later.


Randy, that was a nice video showing the relaunch but keep in mind that once you get chop and then waves and landing a kite in deeper water further from shore a lot of things change. Kites that seem relaunchable and sit on top can easily be swamped and rolled in waves and then in a matter of seconds are a ball that is rolled under and lines tangled. And standing on land keeping just the right amount of line tension on a kite in shallow water is way different when you and the kite are both drifting and you have nothing to brace against. Don't venture further than willing to swim or paddle back for the once in a while incident when it doesn't go as easy. Have fun, not trying to dampen spirits just be aware for a work around.




Mark Groshens NAPKA KC 13
WindSpeed kites & design - Canada
Peter Lynn: Ch2 22 +18 + 15 + 6.5, Scorp 16 + 10, Phantom II 12 + 9, Orig Phantom 9 + 6, Syn 8, Charger I 6, F 1200, 840
Ocean Rodeo: Flite 17 + 12, Rise 13 + 10 + 7, Razor 9 + 6
Foils: PL Leopards and Lynx, Airea Raptors, some PL Reactor IIs + IIIs, Libre Spirits, Cross Kite Sonics, Ozone Flow
Peter Lynn Kite Cat for cruising the lakes
buggies: PL XR+, Cameleon Pagona, custom bigfoot, PL Bigfoot, custom ice buggy
Boards: 2 custom directionals, O.R Surf series 6-3 and 5-11, Mako Duke, Mako Skinny, Mako 140 Wide, Mako 150 Wide, Mako King, Brunotti
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soliver




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[*] posted on 1-2-2015 at 09:28 AM


Randy, was that Lanier, Allatoona, or were you still out of town filming that? I remember we talked last summer about them draining Allatoona in the winter... looks like a promising spot!



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[*] posted on 1-2-2015 at 09:32 AM


It was Galts Ferry at Lake Allatoona. There are a lot of rocks, but there may be useful areas. Right now the gate to the lower park is not open, but it is no problem to walk in. It would be a ways for a buggy. Its a nice place to fly, if nothing else. You might driver by three sometime and see what you think. It may not be big enough, but I can't really say whats needed. The water is around 827 ft now, and probably will drop some more, opening up more space.



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Randy


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[*] posted on 1-2-2015 at 09:37 AM


Quote: Originally posted by markite  
Quote: Originally posted by Randy  
I'm thinking of something a lot less ambitious. Maybe a 3-4m NPW on one of my windsurf boards or an SUP. Working on the kite part of it. Check out esp. about 3:10 and 6:50. I'll edit it down and post a better video later.


Randy, that was a nice video showing the relaunch but keep in mind that once you get chop and then waves and landing a kite in deeper water further from shore a lot of things change. Kites that seem relaunchable and sit on top can easily be swamped and rolled in waves and then in a matter of seconds are a ball that is rolled under and lines tangled. And standing on land keeping just the right amount of line tension on a kite in shallow water is way different when you and the kite are both drifting and you have nothing to brace against. Don't venture further than willing to swim or paddle back for the once in a while incident when it doesn't go as easy. Have fun, not trying to dampen spirits just be aware for a work around.


No question about any of that. Being able to relaunch from shore is by itself not enough. Still a long way from what it needed. I will have to see how the floats I built in work in real conditions, but its a start. I'm thinking more lightwind condition so that chop won't be as big of an issue, and I usually bring a paddle for windsurfing and will most definitely do so when I try this. SUP board or longboard is how I will go.

Here is a picture of one of the back floats. There is also a float in the nose, but hard to see in a picture. If this seems promising I will probably sew pockets in to hold the back floats.





Snapshot 6s (1-2-2015 12-32 PM).png - 159kB




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[*] posted on 1-3-2015 at 06:38 AM


Quote: Originally posted by blturner  

PhreeRider, thanks for the information. Looks like the videos also say that a larger kite is the way to go.

I did not know about the surf bar weight limit. Does the bar typically include the lines. I know the lines would need to be larger. At some point the kite might get overstressed.
I figure that I will need to make my own bar anyway. Hooking to the boat looks safer and that is a not a configuration that works with a standard kite bar.
Looks like I should start with standard length lines if that means easier control. Then extend them after that.

Thanks Guys, I will keep you posted.



you want the setup that comes with the kite, the bar is not the issue, its the limit of the lines, and yes lines come with bar set up. any chicken loop can easily attached to a cat , YOU WANT ALL SAFETY SYSTEMS INTACT right down to the chicken loop.

SS comes with super heavy lines 800lbs fronts and thats the heaviest shelf bar set on the market. a big light wind kite like zephyr, draft or edge . definitely favor wave style units over others as well. a custom bar setup is far more sensitive than you realize some light wind kites have very narrow sweet spots .

extending the lines maybe to 30m(total) anymore and feedback and drag start to decay response and feel.




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blturner




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[*] posted on 1-4-2015 at 03:38 PM


Phreerider,
Thanks for the advice. I will get a kite and bar.
Now that I have seen the the video that you posted it looks easier to attach than I thought.

A custom bar/control system looks like a stage 2 project.

Brian
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AD72




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[*] posted on 1-5-2015 at 01:32 PM


I use a 13M Ozone Edge with my Kitecat. It goes great upwind.
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blturner




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[*] posted on 1-5-2015 at 06:36 PM


Looks like your not even looping or S-turning.
I just noticed that the Kitecat turns backwards from an airplane, sled style.
I like that video. It shows me what the bar is doing.
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AD72




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[*] posted on 1-5-2015 at 10:19 PM


Last time I took it out I did a lot more looping through the turn for a smoother transition. There are rudders forward and aft. The aft rudders run counter to the forward ones.
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[*] posted on 1-6-2015 at 06:51 AM


AD72! nice set up man where u been.



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[*] posted on 1-6-2015 at 08:35 AM


Thats awsome!



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AD72




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[*] posted on 1-6-2015 at 08:57 AM


Quote: Originally posted by PHREERIDER  
AD72! nice set up man where u been.

Kiteboarding whenever I can. I have not been since October though. Going to Los Barriles Baja next week for Lord of the Wind. Can't wait!
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[*] posted on 1-6-2015 at 09:20 AM


thats la ventana? yeah



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AD72




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[*] posted on 1-6-2015 at 10:46 AM


I will be staying in El cardonal. Which is between La Ventana an Los Barriles. I will probably take a day trip up to La ventana. The event is in LB. Last time i was there i did a 13 mile downwinder from El Cardonal to Los Barriles... On a twin tip.

Apologies for the thread hijack.
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soliver




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[*] posted on 1-7-2015 at 06:48 AM


Very Nice AD72... looks like you've got really great control on the kite cat, esp with the fore and aft rudders,... thats cool!



NAPKA US 593
In real life they call me "Spencer"

Flying-- Flysurfer: 6m Peak 1 (A Minty Fresh generous gift) & 12m Peak 2 (The gnat fart catcher)
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blturner




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[*] posted on 3-24-2015 at 09:45 AM


Well I picked up a Venom II 16m here on the boards and tried it out Sunday on the 14' Hobie cat. (Smithville Lake)
Conditions were variable and not strong enough. The wind blows the boat downwind at about the same pace as the kite, so water relaunch was very difficult. The water was too cold for any more than knee deep wading. So we had to paddle to shallows several times to relaunch. Only managed to sail about 400 Meters in 4 hours.
Sorry no video. It's takes every hand my son and I have to keep the whole rig flying/moving. Learned plenty. Will go to a bigger lake with better wind next time.
(Lake Perry) If we can find our goPro SD card I will put it somewhere on the boat and let it record the whole time. I think I want a chase boat on the bigger lake until we get the hang of this. Paddling a Hobie is only fun for so long.

I think I should have gotten an LEI. The twinskin arc style turned frontside-back a few times and slowly deflates and takes on water while sitting on the water waiting for the wind to come back up. More wind may help but might be more power than I can handle.
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[*] posted on 3-24-2015 at 10:26 AM


@bl- glad to see you are making a go of it just a quick tip though try going cross wind- the kite will always fall out of the sky if you are going straight downwind since you will lose all of the line tension making the kite uncontrollable and do what you mentioned. the 16m v2 will need at least 10mph to fly and significantly more to haul the hobie cat. Using a kite is the same as sailing except that you cannot go straight down wind- need to find the balance between forward movement and side pull from the kite- hope this helps
S




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blturner




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[*] posted on 3-24-2015 at 10:51 AM


The forecast was for 8MPH and I don't think we were getting even that most of the time. The smallish lake gets a lot of thermals that make the wind start and stop. I know about not going downwind. We were pulling the cat backwards at times while I figured out where the wind window was at. The window seems to change size as the wind falls off and if the kite is wet or not yet fully inflated.

This weekend has 13mph forecast. But with gusts up to 20mph. I can't say I trust myself in handling a 20 mph gust. That might be enough to flip the cat if it catches us wrong. Perhaps we should be wearing helmets? Also not looking for a swim this early in the season.

Also not sure that I have the de-power all figured out. Sometimes when I let out the bar to de-power it seems to go faster first and then de-power. I think that means that I was stalled. I think this will go away with faster winds. I don't know if this line and bar were set up for this kite. The bar seems a bit short for the amount of left-right input the kite wants. I was just grabbing the padded part of the lines as needed.
Should I be able to stall the kite at will? I don't seem to have enough range to both de-power and stall reliably. But it is using most of my arms reach so maybe that is just a matter of preference.
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[*] posted on 3-24-2015 at 11:15 AM


Letting the bar out will only depower the kite noticeably if it is near the edge of the window. Like you said, you may have had the kite stalled. If it stalls, it will drift back into the window and when you let the bar back out, it speeds the kite up which builds power until it reaches the edge of the window again. Just keep in mind that depowering the bar reduces lift, which also reduces drag. It speeds the kite up at the same time as reducing lift, but depending on location within the window, the speed may generate more apparent wind and pull for you.



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