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Author: Subject: First time out, kite unresponsive
Astr4twin




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[*] posted on 7-21-2014 at 06:00 AM
First time out, kite unresponsive


Hi, let me start by saying i only just recently purchased a HQ Symphony 1.3 for my daughter and loved it so much i decided to buy a bigger 4 line kite for myself.

I watched loads of videos and read up on as much information as i could much to the annoyance of my wife. My main reason for wanting a 4 line kite was due to having more control.

I decided to purchase an Pansh Adam 5.5m due to it being a relatively stable kite to fly for a beginner and more importantly at the time was the price as i didnt want to put too much cash into this to begin with in case it's not for me. I'm pretty sure it is though :)

So my kite turns up today after what seems like a long week waiting and i rush out to try it out. Its not really windy enough to be honest, 9-10mph gusts and then nothing but i was determined i wasnt waiting any longer to fly this.

I got it up and i have to admit it wasnt as easy to fly as my daughters baby kite but i managed to turn it left and right but that was about it. I was a little dissapointed to be honest as i was expecting to have all this control, left and right, up and down and yet it didnt feel like i had any more control than my daughter's 2 line kite. I was trying to bring it back down from zenith to the power zone and yet it seemed unresponsive and would only come back down when the wind subsided or i steered it to the left or right.

I'm guessing it's my brake lines need shortening or is it due to there not being enough wind?

How much control should i have from the kite, should i be able to hold it in any position i like within the window or am i expecting too much?

If it is due to the brake lines being too long do i tie another knot in the handles or do i shorten the actual brake lines somehow?

Many thanS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s in advance.

EDIT: Typos
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[*] posted on 7-21-2014 at 06:31 AM


I think you have bought the wrong kite for learning on your own.

You should have bought something smaller and ready to fly.

You could have saved yourself a lot of agro' by asking questions on here or from a reputable dealer before buying.




Kites: 2.5m Profoil , 4.9m QuadrifoilXL kitesurfer, 9m Flexi Blade II, NPW 5 Danger.
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Peter Lynn :18m Phantom, 15m Synergy, 10m Synergy, 1200 Farc, 460 Sarc, 130 Tarc, 5m Peel, 4.2m , 6.4, 8.5 C-Quads

Rides: Flexi / P.L. Frankin'Buggy , Shaped + straight skiis, sand skis, Coyote blades. Core 95 ATB. RKB R2 ATB .

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Astr4twin




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[*] posted on 7-21-2014 at 06:39 AM


I really thought i was doing the right thing as i did do alot of research , mainly googling specific questions i had and reading other thoughts on various forums. I read that the Adam was quite a forgiving kite for a learner.

Through reading up myself, i have came to the conclusion it's the brake lines being too long.

Can i tie off knots in the bridle and use this for adjustment or is it best to make adjustments at the handles?

I guess im just going to have to work this out trial and error until i can purchase a smaller kite.

Could you please advise, are my thoughts about how a 4 line kite should handle correct and will it fly better with adjustments?

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[*] posted on 7-21-2014 at 06:53 AM


kite handling is an experiential event , virtual info extrapolated is missing alot and lends zero to the actual application.

its you learning AND the specific kite




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Bladerunner


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[*] posted on 7-21-2014 at 07:01 AM


Yes , it's probably a combination of brakes + the kite being big and slow turning.

You can't hold it anyplace in the window only at the edge.




Kites: 2.5m Profoil , 4.9m QuadrifoilXL kitesurfer, 9m Flexi Blade II, NPW 5 Danger.
Flysurfer : 19m Speed 2 SA, 7m Pulse
Peter Lynn :18m Phantom, 15m Synergy, 10m Synergy, 1200 Farc, 460 Sarc, 130 Tarc, 5m Peel, 4.2m , 6.4, 8.5 C-Quads

Rides: Flexi / P.L. Frankin'Buggy , Shaped + straight skiis, sand skis, Coyote blades. Core 95 ATB. RKB R2 ATB .

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[*] posted on 7-21-2014 at 07:06 AM


You can either tie knots in the brake leaders on your handles and use those to attach the brake lines to shorten them and/or you can add a length of suitable line to your power line leaders to effectively tighten the brake lines. Inches can make a difference.

The responsiveness of your Symphony is almost at the speed of light compared to the Adam you purchased. A stable kite for beginners means it won't do anything very fast so you don't get in trouble. The power will multiply very fast with the 5.5 if you get winds in the mid teens so be careful with it.




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Astr4twin




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[*] posted on 7-21-2014 at 07:07 AM


Thank you for your replies, i can certainly see why you would suggest a smaller RTF kite after today's experience. I'm afraid i may have fell into the bigger is better mentality as an inexperienced newcomer when in fact i can now see a smaller kite would be more fun to fly.

I dont have a huge budget as we have just paid out a large sum of savings on a deposit for a mortgage but could you please recommend a smaller kite i could buy that would be suitable for my needs but still fun once i gain more experience?
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[*] posted on 7-21-2014 at 07:14 AM


Instead of telling you directly, please do a search here on PKF for "first kite", or "beginner kite" and you'll find more responses to the question that you are willing to read.



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Astr4twin




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[*] posted on 7-21-2014 at 07:17 AM


Yes of course, i can do that. ThanS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s for pointing me in the right direction. I guess i still have alot to learn.

Really appreciate everyone taking time out to answer my questions so thanks again :)
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[*] posted on 7-21-2014 at 07:43 AM


Welcome to the forum Astr4twin. You know what it sounds like to me ?...your brake lines need shortening. Hehehe
Your instincts maybe right. Bigger kites turn slower, so you're going to need all that brake input to help the kite turn.

It has been many a year since I've tuned a foil kite so someone correct me if I'm wrong but if memory serves, you can adjust the length of your brake lines at the handle end. There should already be adjustment knots on the leaders for you to attach your lines. Leaders are the thin ropes that are permanently fixed to the handles. If not then you'll need to put some knots in there, making sure that both the left and right hand sides are equal otherwise you'll experience some left or right turn biais.

Again I know less than nothing of the Adam foil, but you should have had even more control due to it being four lines. However 10mph or less isn't much wind so you will need to keep the kite in constant fluid motion. Try not to climb at steep angles especially at the edge of the wind window, downturn instead. Snake your way to the zenith. Walk backwards on steep climbs and walk forwards to regain your ground on dives.

Smaller more stable beginner kites are a lot of fun. The larger kites are more for traction activities. If all you want is to fly static then some serious grown up fun can be had with the flexifoil super 10's. These are two line control, huge fun to fly, super fast kites that will test your muscles to the max. Not sure if they sell them new anymore but you can still find them on ebay.


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Astr4twin




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[*] posted on 7-21-2014 at 08:01 AM


ThanS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s for the welcome.

I had so much fun flying that 1.3 with my daughter, she's only just turned 7 but within 20 minutes she was flying it just as well as me. She absolutely loved it and im hoping we can both go out flying together as she gets older.

As soon as i got home i jumped straight onto the computer and started looking for a kite for myself.
I'm only a young dad and have had a play on my sons mountainboard so am hoping to eventually take that to the beach but really need to gain enough experience of controlling a kite first but hopefully the Adam will still be useful for something in the future.

For now im eyeing up a 3m Hornet but that may change. As for the brake lines, i guess shortening them is going to make a huge difference as i literally had no more control than a 2 line kite.

I will wait patiently until theres some steady wind too. :)

Edit: Just watched some video's of the Super 10's, they look like heaps of fun ;)
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[*] posted on 7-21-2014 at 08:58 AM


You're going to want a quad line kite if you want to get into the traction part of this kite flying thing. It's been said before but I'll say it again - something int he 3m range is probably one of the best places to start and will be a kite that you can learn everything on in lower winds and five years from now you'll still use when the wind is howling. I've seen countless people go the Beamer route and would nod my head in that direction or perhaps the PKD Buster Soulfly. My Busters are the "test the winds" kites for me. Faithful companions. And both economical options and high, high quality.



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[*] posted on 7-21-2014 at 09:14 AM


welcome aboard!!...youve got your 2nd kite in place..after youve got some time on your new 3m you will feel much better about buying the Adam...actually buying kites is almost as much fun as flying them...go get the 3 right away and be a pilot



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Astr4twin




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[*] posted on 7-21-2014 at 10:01 AM


Yes im going to play it safe and buy a 3m beamer as they seem to be tried and tested for a beginner and see how I go from there. Just on the look out for the best place to buy one now :)

My wife wont be happy when she finds out. Shes already had a moan that I ignored her all night whilst reading up on kites.

I will be honest that 5.5m was a bit of a let down for a newcomer like myself. I managed to crash it downwards as the turn was so slow. Hopefully I can get it to turn tighter with the brakes.

Another thing, I dont know how you guys do it but my arms were about ready to drop off after just 10 minutes flying. Need to get in shape.

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[*] posted on 7-21-2014 at 12:02 PM


Welcome to the forum! Like others have said, some adjustments on the brake lines may be in order. Where are you located? Someone may be close enough to help you get it tuned, I will also throw it out there that if you can't get it figured out, if you don't mind shipping it to me, I can help you out with the tuning. It wouldn't cost you anything but the shipping if that isn't too much.

It can be a somewhat easy task, you just have to have a little patience. With time and experience, you will learn to fly the 5m and get it to do what you want for the most part.







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Astr4twin




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[*] posted on 7-21-2014 at 12:56 PM


Im in Manchester UK so a little too far to post it but really appreciate your kind offer.

I will tie some knots off every 2 inches and try different lengths and hopefully find the sweet spot somewhere along the way.
Its a little frustrating at the moment as theres no wind forecast this next week and im the most impatient person ever.

Part of my theory for buying a larger kite was it not needing as much wind.

Im guessing summer isnt the best time of year for kite flying and I'll get more air time in spring and autumn.

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[*] posted on 7-21-2014 at 02:04 PM


There's a HUGE kite community over there - you won't have any troubles finding help. I think it's FoilZone that has the most UK fliers. Don't leave the PKF family though! THis place is the best of all of them.



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Astr4twin




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[*] posted on 7-21-2014 at 02:22 PM


Thanks macboy, it would be great to meet up with people with more experience.

Im stalking ebay at the moment with your suggestions and hoping to pick up another kite within the next week.
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[*] posted on 7-21-2014 at 05:42 PM


Astr4twin,
"I really thought i was doing the right thing as i did do alot of research"
Your research is good, but it's equally (or more) important to do hands-on research. It would be worth harnessing some of your enthusiasm and finding someone local to you. Like macboy said: "There's a HUGE kite community over there" and I'm sure that the'll be happy to see you.
Having the opportunity to check out a couple of other kites, before pulling the "spend" trigger, can save you money and help you find a kite that you'll be happier with.
Welcome to the addiction - and a sport that you can share with your kids.




Go ahead... tell me to "go fly a kite!" Please!

Howard KC67 NAPKA District #12 Representative
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[*] posted on 7-21-2014 at 05:47 PM


Sorry if I was a bit snippy this morning. I was in a bad mood and dislike how Pansh does this to people. Check and see if all lines are equal. Pansh has poor quality control.

You want to set up your brake lines so they have a slight arc in them when the handles are relaxed / pointing toward the kite with the kite sitting at zenith. If it won't sit at zenith and you have 5kts + winds then you have too much brake. Like mentioned below 5kts or so you may need to keep the kite in motion. Hold the handles with the top lines between your top and middle fingers. You should be able to stall the kite and back it down with the brakes fully applied. If the kite ends up spinning or it won't sit at zenith odds are great that you have the brakes too tight + unbalanced. Or you are accidently giving input via the handles. Tuning isn't rocket science and it sounds like you are on the right track.

When you crash nose down you can back the kite up off the ground by using the brakes and then turning the kite.

To speed up your turns add some brake to the side you want to turn. To get a feel for brake turns start with the kite at zenith and add some brake to just one side.

Avoid jerky motions , it only confuses the kite. Instead anticipate what you need to do and start the move well ahead. 5.5m is pretty big and pretty slow to react.

Possibly the best deal out there on a new beginner kite RTF is the 3.3m PKD Buster. Beamers are good but a bit more expensive new. Check UK forums for second hand deals. Stick with PKF for the family feel + good advice.

If you love your wife and kids, WEAR A HELMET !!!

P.S. the sport gets extremely fun when you get in motion. Definitely give the mountain board a try once you can fly your kite blind ( without looking at it ) . That is when having the 5.5m will really pay off ! :thumbup: The 5.5 Adam isn't an awful kite just not a great kite for learning on your own.




Kites: 2.5m Profoil , 4.9m QuadrifoilXL kitesurfer, 9m Flexi Blade II, NPW 5 Danger.
Flysurfer : 19m Speed 2 SA, 7m Pulse
Peter Lynn :18m Phantom, 15m Synergy, 10m Synergy, 1200 Farc, 460 Sarc, 130 Tarc, 5m Peel, 4.2m , 6.4, 8.5 C-Quads

Rides: Flexi / P.L. Frankin'Buggy , Shaped + straight skiis, sand skis, Coyote blades. Core 95 ATB. RKB R2 ATB .

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[*] posted on 7-21-2014 at 06:04 PM


Quote: Originally posted by Bladerunner  
Sorry if I was a bit snippy this morning.

Ken's a great pilot, but don't ask him questions until he's had his morning coffee:lol:




Go ahead... tell me to "go fly a kite!" Please!

Howard KC67 NAPKA District #12 Representative
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Astr4twin




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[*] posted on 7-22-2014 at 04:40 AM


It's no problem Bladerunner, i was expecting some stick when i mentioned Pansh anyway :)

At the time i ordered, it made sense to go with the Pansh as it seemed like it wasnt going to cost me the earth to get into something i may or may not like. I do think it's something im going to really enjoy though, once i get the hang of thing's.

I can see now that something smaller and better quality purchased used would have been the best way forward.

I have just finished setting up the bottom leaders in 2" adjustments and the top in 1" adjustements. What i can say is the original knot in the leaders was nearly 1" out to begin with and i've also noticed 1 handle is about 15mm larger than the other handle. I have nothing to compare the quality to, but i can see that you probably get what you pay for. hopefully they will do me for now.

I'm looking at Beamer III 3m on ebay at the moment and going to put a bid in on that when it end's. They seem to be going for anywhere between 60 and 95 and i'll be more than happy at that price.

There's not so much as a gentle breeze outside at the moment and were having some of the best weather weve had in year's so im sat waiting impatiently to get back out and relaunch this with the adjustments made.

@hiaguy, i cant really say im a morning person myself until i've had my coffee fix :) as for my kids. Dont even want to go there. ;)


EDIT: Dont know if anyone could advise but, i've spotted a red Beamer III 3m and theres another auction for a yellow Beamer 3.6m

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/171391214354?_trksid=p2055119.m143...

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/331262528284?_trksid=p2055119.m143...

Do you know which would be the best model to bid on?
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[*] posted on 7-22-2014 at 07:14 AM


The 3m is the one like my first 4 line kite. It taught me the ropes and was my first kite I effectively buggied with. They have made improvements but that would be an awesome deal for you at those prices. I'm not sure about the model history with the 3.6. Maybe it came with a bar from the factory? Older model than the Beamer III? Not sure.



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Astr4twin




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[*] posted on 7-22-2014 at 09:40 AM


Ok thanS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s, hopefully i should grab something this week. It would be ideal at those prices.

ThanS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s again for all your Tips and advice too. :)
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[*] posted on 7-22-2014 at 11:11 AM


Quote: Originally posted by macboy  
You're going to want a quad line kite if you want to get into the traction part of this kite flying thing. It's been said before but I'll say it again - something int he 3m range is probably one of the best places to start and will be a kite that you can learn everything on in lower winds and five years from now you'll still use when the wind is howling. I've seen countless people go the Beamer route and would nod my head in that direction or perhaps the PKD Buster Soulfly. My Busters are the "test the winds" kites for me. Faithful companions. And both economical options and high, high quality.


I totally agree. I went the 5m route and got busted up. I was told to get a 3m and refused to listen. I now fly my HQ 3m more than any other kite.





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[*] posted on 7-22-2014 at 11:25 AM


Quote: Originally posted by BeamerBob  
The 3m is the one like my first 4 line kite. It taught me the ropes and was my first kite I effectively buggied with. They have made improvements but that would be an awesome deal for you at those prices. I'm not sure about the model history with the 3.6. Maybe it came with a bar from the factory? Older model than the Beamer III? Not sure.


The Beamer 3.6 TSR was developed based on the Beamer II before the Beamer III.

It's a quad line kite, but comes from the factory with a control bar. Can just as easily be swapped out to fly with handles.

It had an adjustable Angle of Attack to bias the kite towards speed or power.

Can find the field card/manual for it here:
http://www.invento-hq.com/Support/manuals/fc_beamer_tsr.pdf

Although it can sometimes take a bit to get registered, www.kitecrowd.com has a healthy UK user base and the Buy/Sell section of the forum gets a fair amount of traffic.

ATB,
Sam




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[*] posted on 7-22-2014 at 03:56 PM


Different line lengths is almost acceptable / expected from Pansh but 2 different handle sizes is isn't IMHO.

I would be writing to Pansh and insisting they fix their mistake or take them back. The one thing Pansh is good about is fixing their mistakes. I have never tried flying with 2 different sized handles but think it would be a bit wonky?

The 3m Beamer will probably serve you as a high wind kite better down the road ?




Kites: 2.5m Profoil , 4.9m QuadrifoilXL kitesurfer, 9m Flexi Blade II, NPW 5 Danger.
Flysurfer : 19m Speed 2 SA, 7m Pulse
Peter Lynn :18m Phantom, 15m Synergy, 10m Synergy, 1200 Farc, 460 Sarc, 130 Tarc, 5m Peel, 4.2m , 6.4, 8.5 C-Quads

Rides: Flexi / P.L. Frankin'Buggy , Shaped + straight skiis, sand skis, Coyote blades. Core 95 ATB. RKB R2 ATB .

Ken (K2)
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Astr4twin




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[*] posted on 7-23-2014 at 02:08 AM


I could probably cut the longer handle back a bit myself without too much trouble, i think the holes for the leaders are in the right position it just made it a little more difficult to make sure the knots i had tied off were equal when making adjustements to shorten the brake lines as i couldnt position the handles together so easily.

The lines i took for granted would be the same size so i will have to take them out and check today. The kite did have a tendancy to dive to the right and land nose down but i put this down to my inexperience and the wind.

In fairness to Pansh, i dont really think i set the kite up correctly to begin with, but am confident i have a good idea how to set it up now with the help i have received from here.

I'm holding out for a 3m Beamer now when the right one comes up. It seem's like a great kite for a beginner and im sure i will use it for years.

I just checked the weather and we suddenly have 13mph winds for a few hours today so im going to get out and see what progress i can make. :)
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Astr4twin




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[*] posted on 7-23-2014 at 11:17 AM


Ok, though i'd post a quick update.

I managed to get out for a few hours.

Sun was shining, it's about 26c here which is unusually hot for england. We havent had many great summers for a few years now but it looks like were going to have a good one. Wind was blowing a steady 13mph with the odd gust.

I first checked all my lines and the lengths are all equal so i continued to set up and shortened the brake lines. I found they were still a little too slack so i moved them, back a further 2"

I was then able to launch the kite easily, straight to zenith and had control to land the kite with the brake lines succesfully.

Now i must admit i dont feel comfortable at all with this kite, Im 150lbs and felt the kite had more control off me than i had of it. All the videos i watched looked so much fun but in reality i was wrestling with something that has the potential to kill me and i felt i was only just managing to tip the scales in my favour. It was dragging me down the field and at one point i was surprised at how far i had travelled, it also lifted me momentarily.

I used to work physical labour and since a career change have noticed im not as strong as i used to be so i dont know if that plays any part. I dont know how you guys do it but i was flying for 5 minutes and having to have 10 minutes rest.
I'm beginning to wonder if even a 3m would be too much.

Now i did have a few other problems with the kite. I was really cautious of people getting close to me, especially with my limited experience. Whilst i had the kite tied down i had one little boy come up to me (he was alone and only about 8) and ask me for a go, he wanted to help. I explained to him it was too dangerous and joked about how i couldnt even handle it myself. He was persistent on touching the kite and walk in the way of the lines. I didn't want to be nasty to him but felt like i was going to need to be more firm with him as he was adamant he was strong enough. Whilst i was talking to him i had another lady approach from the left with a pram (there had been nobody here previously) and she stood only a few feet away from the kite. You could say i was a little distracted trying to please the boy who said i was mean and watching what the woman with the pram was doing. It turns out she was wanting to show her child the kite. Anyway, the wind picked up and started to launch the kite. The kite was turning in loops, launching and relanding before taking off again. The woman with the pram was not moving, i dont think she realised the danger and in a panic i grabbed the actual lines and tried to wrestle the kite away from her. In reality i was at the mercy of the wind and luckily it died down.

What would you guy's do in that situation and is there anything i could do to stop the kite ever self launching again?
The reason i grabbed the lines was because the handles were already staked down so there was no other way to try to keep the kite from blowing into her.

I had another question too. I feel the brake lines could probably be tightened more as there was no way i could reverse launch. Is there a technique to reverse launching or do you just reverse the controls like i tried to.

I'll post a picture of where i was tied to the leaders, i figured i had already shortened them a considerable amount but i have no previous experience with a 4 line to compare the feel of the brakes to.






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Bladerunner


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[*] posted on 7-23-2014 at 04:18 PM


I sort of saw this coming.

I think your kite started spinning when parked for 2 reasons. Your brakes need to be shortened even more. The uneven length of the handles means more brake on one side than the other. I would be complaining to Pansh and tell them why the different length handles don't work and that you demand a refund or replacement. Pansh are good about making up for their mistakes.

Your wording it exactly right. We all recommend starting with a 3m so you can be in control of the kite. Too big and you are just trying to survive. Not really learning anything about flying. Once you learn kite control you will learn how to work the wind window. Using the edge of the window to avoid power and the center to gain power. Too big a kite reduces the days you can go out + increases the chances you will go out in too much wind. Eventually you will be able to fly the 5.5in that wind but it will be about the upper limit.

Reverse launch is like backing the kite down. Add brake until the kite flies up off the ground in reverse. Avoid jerky motions. Then turn it. BUT .... when you turn it you will be right in the power zone !!!!! You may be glad it didn't happen today.

The general public are a constant problem. It is shocking how ignorant they can be. Big Prop's on being a diplomat. You are representing the whole kiting community. Always expect the public to do the stupidest thing you can imagine and worse. They will never understand the unsafe zones so you need to keep an eye out. When I am flying and they get into my space I stop. When they just stand there I explain that I can't fly with them in front of me and if they want me to continue to please step back behind me. OFTEN they will be hostile. Those who can't do something often are. Just like how skate and snowboarders were not accepted at 1st.

Careful grabbing lines. We all wear gloves ( and helmets ). I know people who have literally lost fingers . You may want to get " kite killers ". Grabbing them would have been a good choice.

A harness allows you to fly without so much strain on your arms but you need to know how to fly the kite 1st.

Don't be too discouraged. When you get the 3m it will be the perfect balance between power and controllability. Even then 13mph winds will be the upper limit until you learn to control it. Once you master it your 3m will take you into the 20's. It is all about time on the ropes and setting memory reflexes at 1st. Every time out is a learning experience. Look at it like managing to survive today without injury was a huge success. You actually learned a lot. Don't give up ! :thumbup:




Kites: 2.5m Profoil , 4.9m QuadrifoilXL kitesurfer, 9m Flexi Blade II, NPW 5 Danger.
Flysurfer : 19m Speed 2 SA, 7m Pulse
Peter Lynn :18m Phantom, 15m Synergy, 10m Synergy, 1200 Farc, 460 Sarc, 130 Tarc, 5m Peel, 4.2m , 6.4, 8.5 C-Quads

Rides: Flexi / P.L. Frankin'Buggy , Shaped + straight skiis, sand skis, Coyote blades. Core 95 ATB. RKB R2 ATB .

Ken (K2)
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