Good Afternoon Guys:

Didn't want to elbow in on another similar thread but the general consensus over there was that a LEI has significantly less pull then a land air foil....

With that being said, I do a lot of recreational kiting... flying for the fun of it. And that with the winds that I mostly fly in, I usually make a selection of a 2.5 meter, 3 meter, 3.2 meter, and then a 3.5 meter. Now I am thinking of getting a kite that I can fly and launch from the water, the back of a boat, while standing in water at the beach, etc.

Please note that I have foils up to 6.5 meter and while I enjoy flying those, the smaller kites allow me to fly longer and sweep across the horizon inches from the ground.

Having never flown a LEI and not that many opportunities available to try one out, what would a comparable size to a 2.5-3.5 meter foil be?

Regards,
Cranky

Quote:

Originally posted by CrankyThunder Didn't want to elbow in on another similar thread but the general consensus over there was that a LEI has significantly less pull then a land air foil....

NO! Do not continue to spread this incorrect understanding! A FIXED BRIDLE kite produces more power than a DEPOWER kite of the same size. Foil, Inflatable, Made out of fairy wings, it doesn't matter what it's made out of, it's the type of wing, the shape of the wing, the aspect ratio, all these affect power.

Quote:

Originally posted by CrankyThunder Having never flown a LEI and not that many opportunities available to try one out, what would a comparable size to a 2.5-3.5 meter *fixed bridle* foil be?

7-9m on average, without knowing anything about your fixed bridle kites. a 3m FB kite like the Beamer is friendly and low-power compared to the twitchyness of a 3m FB race kite like Zebra Z3. A 3m beamer might compare to a 6-7m LEI, while a 3m race kite like the Zebra Z3 might compare to a 9-10M LEI.

You should get an intro lesson. Since you can already fly, you can skip right past the trainer stage. It's one thing to fly a big foil on handles, but it's quite another thing to actually be strapped to a kite (be it foil or LEI.) With depower kites, letting go of the bar doesn't always guarantee safety.

If you get a lesson, you'll likely have a selection of kites that you can fly or at least chose from.

If you think that you just want to fly in the shallow water, something like the HQ Hydra might be in order. This kite is water relaunchable and can perform body drags. Just don't fly it in off-shore winds, though.

-joedy

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Originally posted by joedyWith depower kites, letting go of the bar doesn't always guarantee safety.

I would actually say that letting go of the bar NEVER guarantees safety, even when flying a kite with autozenith like an arc.

NO! Do not continue to spread this incorrect understanding! A FIXED BRIDLE kite produces more power than a DEPOWER kite of the same size. Foil, Inflatable, Made out of fairy wings, it doesn't matter what it's made out of, it's the type of wing, the shape of the wing, the aspect ratio, all these affect power.



This is a false statement
Ive read this many times and dont know why people are stuck on it.
If you take a fixed bridle say like a blade 4 and convert it to a depower kite by adding a mixer, you have done nothing to change the original profile of the kite. When at full power the kite is the same. It will still have the same amount of power that it had when u started. There will minimal loss from extra lines and the weight of those lines but not a huge difference.
When you fly the kite you can now " depower" the kite and fly it using less of its power, you now can use a larger kite to cover more range. This does not mean the kite has less power, only you are using less. Fly a depower trimmed out and unhooked, then tell me its got less juice.

I won't argue with Power.

He shut me down when he proved that you can reverse launch old LEI's.

I do think that if you are considering this and you don't tend to fly your larger fixed bridle then this deal : http://www.powerkiteforum.com/viewthread.php?tid=25431 Is the one for you ! It's not an LEI but you can take it out on the water with the close cells. Unbelievable good price !

But looking at everything without going into a huge physics discussion, a 3.5m fixed bridle will perform better in lighter winds than a depower of same AR, and profile. This is why a person could be riding buggy with a 2-3m fixed bridle, but a person with a depower would need a 6m to get the same result. Its also why that person on the depower could be still going in strong winds, but the FB guy would have dropped to a much smaller kite. So if you don't try to get all scientific about it yes you will generally need a bigger depower kite to get the same pull as a fixed bridle. However with skill you can learn to work power out of a depower, but most of the time if you are working that hard, you will want to go up a size. My 3.5m imp trainer could scud me in winds that I could toss my 6m access around endlessly without moving an inch.



Side note: Its good to see you back on the forum Power. Seems you almost went dormant on us the past while.

If i take a 3.5m and throw mixers on it, it will perform the same as it did without them when its at full power. Think of it this way, a fixed bridle is locked in on full power. A depower is not, its still there but your not always using it. If you wanted you could fly unhooked, at full power, and have the same kite.
Go out on a day where your 3.5 is about at its high end. Then go grab a 6m depower and fly it unhooked. Probably make u pee your pants.

Like I stated, you are not wrong in your statement. However 95% of the time that is not how the kite is flown therefore the point of fixed bridle to depower ratio still is a true statement. Yes there is still x and x amount of ripstop in the air, so you still have the same power potential. The statement is to put into perspective that if you go out and fly a depower on the same day at the same place that guys are on fixed bridles, there is generally always gonna be a significant size between the depower and fixed bridle. Why for the exact points you are trying to prove. The mixer allows for a much wider wind range. If you are in the lower end of a depowers range, unhooked fully powered will cause the kite to back stall and fly like crap. I could be wrong, but I thought that guys found a bit of loss in low wind performance, when they did a depower mod on their blades. Like I said keeping it straight and simple one will be using a bigger depower in the same winds as a fixed bridle, and that is all the statement is meant to be read into.

Depowers also use a different profiles than fixed bridle. The have less power but a bigger depower range. A fixed bridle converted to depower won't have nearly as much depower as a true depower. Depowers also need more back stall so they turn easily. That takes away some power too. They are about the same but depower has a bit less power. All kites are different too. Compairing blade sizes to NASA wing sizes would result in different sizes for the same wind speed.

Agreed snake, I have added a depower system to my Blade VIP (8.5m), it does not have the depower range of a "normal" depower kite, however for me the range it does give is very useful. When in the buggy it means I can send the kite up depowered without getting lofted!! When flying at it's low AoA the kite is much faster, flies further to the edge of the window, the power is less. Where as going to a higher AoA the kite slows down and generates more power and of course more lift.
Flying both NASAs and blades they are totally different animals and generate power differently.

LEI's are not really designed for recreational flying so I would not really recommend getting something which has been designed for kitesurfing if what you really want is a recreational kite that will launch from water - or fly in the rain!

To answer your question from my point of view. I would use my 3.5 fixed bridle in 25-30mph winds for boarding on land. on the water I would probably stick with the 9m LEI up to 27-28 mph and then drop to the 7.5m.

The problem is that I need a lot of power to kitesurf and if you are just having some fun flying a kite you are more interested in speed and maneouvreability. and I would be a hell of a lot more cautious with my 3.5m FB on a lanboard in those winds than I would be with a 7m LEI in similar! Its very hard to compare kites when they are used for such different purposes.

There are a couple of LEI trainer kites on the market like this one from Ozone. They will probably suit you better than anything else if you are just flying for the fun of it.

http://www.atbshop.co.uk/power-kites/ozone/ozone-uno-kitesur...

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Originally posted by lives2fly LEI's are not really designed for recreational flying so I would not really recommend getting something which has been designed for kitesurfing if what you really want is a recreational kite that will launch from water - or fly in the rain!

The other point worth stating is that a de-power kite only behaves as advertised when it is in motion, on the water, on land with a buggy, land board or skis. If you you fly static, the transmission/ throttle effect of a de-power will only be present for the few moments that you sweep it through the window.

In fact many have been tricked by the phenomenon of a de-power behaving "backwards" when flying static. This happens when you pull in the bar to "power up" but the kite instead stalls and loses power. In the same case, letting the bar out speeds up the kite and creates more power. This seems counter-intuitive at first until you realize what is going on. Put it in motion in its apparent wind and all is good.

Lastly, and it has been said many times before, the only 100% depowered kite is the one that is folded, stored and locked in the trunk of your car.

I agree that if you are getting a depower kite for static flying that you won't truly feel what am LEI depower kite is all about.

That said, they are fun to fly / body drag and most re-launch easily on water. They can be found at some decent prices. Avoid older kites and C kites in general.

All I know is that I can fly my 3m fixed bridle in 5mph winds with no problem, but my 6m depower LEI won't even hot launch. It's just too heavy with all that armor. So I'd agree with erratic. I'd shoot for about a 8m depower for inland (12-13m for arcs.) It'll be a little hard to fly in low winds, but safer.

The thing to remember, going from FB to depower, is that while the depower can more easily dump power, it can also generate a TON more power by flying fast, looping, or just pulling in the bar to change the angle of attack. I mostly like flying in 5-15 mph winds, so my quiver is mostly from about 13m to 8m (LEI) and 18m to 13m for arcs.

Oh, and in my experience, the type of kite has very little to do with the amount of pull. My 13m LEI pulls almost identically to my 18m Arc, but flies totally differently. But my zippy 8m will pull like a truck if you don't watch it closely because of the high aspect ratio. I'd stay away from high aspect depowers and c kites and the early arcs (f-arcs and s-arcs). best of luck. Hope that helps.