After reading the best way to pack a kite topic, (Reflexes come with handle bags so it is fast and easy to figure 8), several writers were taking hours to untangle lines. It should not take hours to untangle lines. If it does, you are doing something wrong. A tangle is almost always a huge slip knot. Follow these three rules and the largest tangles should never take more than 15 minutes.
Rule #1 - Never detach the lines from handles or the kite because of a tangle. If they got tangled when they were attached, they will untangle with them attached.
Rule #2 - Never start at the ends. All that does is take up your time tying and untying knots.
Rule #3 - Start in the middle looking for a free loop. Pull the free loop back through the tangle until it is not a free loop. Look for another free loop and repeat. When all the free loops are clear you may have a very small knot that may require passing the ends through.
S

Another method that has worked for me in the past is to stake down 3 of the 4 lines . Carefully tug and coax the loose line out from the far end. A bit of walking up and coaxing it is required but it should mostly find it's way out. Once it is free and seperate repeat with another line. Then Seperate the last 2 with just 1 staked.

Avoid tugging too hard and tightening loops. Like in Sean's method work things loose so the line you tug can find it's way through.

A Bic lighter works in extreme cases!

And - never pull anything tight.

and have lots of attitude adjustment



:bigok::bigok::bigok::bigok:

I was actually just about to post something very similar after having a few heavy-knot days. I couldn't agree more with Scudley. Don't create any new knots, don't pull anything tight, and I usually only start at one end if I'm positive that it's a rat's nest nightmare.

For instance, I was a few hundred yards away when my sister in-law's 8-year old son tried to pack my kite by disconnecting the lines and making a pile and then wrapping it tight. Needless to say, it was a ridiculous knot and I knew I would be at it for a while. There was no way to shortcut it... you just gotta start at one end and pull the line all the way through until you're done.

However, for taking a short cut to the solution, I'd highly suggest the following:

1) Look for that loop Scudley was talking about. Often, the knot looks way worse than it actually is. If you find that magical loop and pull it free, the entire knot magically disappears more often than (k)not.

2) Always, Always, ALWAYS treat a knot with more respect than you think it deserves. Before I *really* learned to parapack, I cannot tell you how many times I approached a knot thinking, "Aw, it'll just shake out if I pull it... it's not a big knot." Then cut to 45 minutes later when I missed the fantastic wind because I was in a hurry. It's not worth it. See #3

3) Do not EVER rush untying a knot. Slow and steady wins the race. Think of it as a zen exercise. While your buddies are catching sick air and the wind is perfect, you really gotta go to your happy place and just methodically deal with your knot. Ignore everything else.

4) Don't step over (or under) your lines. It seems like this is just common sense, but it has happened to me a number of times that I am untangling a bridle, get finished, try to exit the kiteal region, and have no idea how I actually came in. Then I stretch lines back out and I've created a new knot. This is similar to #5.

5) Deliberately place/locate your kite controls. If you have to deal with a knotted bridle and you're on a FB with handles/kite killers, take them off and deliberately place them outside of the lines right next to each other (making sure the kite is secure, obviously). When you get done, go pick them up the same way you set them down and attach the KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s. For a depower, make sure your bar accouterments stay out of the bridle or line. Sometimes, this means you attach it to a stake and go down there disconnected. You decide how to do stuff safely, but just try to keep your control apparatus from getting into the mix. I've wasted an afternoon because of that mistake, also.

Kiters patience

I need to introduce you to my grandson, I have 2 rats nest he created that I will bet money on that Scudley would take more than an hour on each, at which point he will give up as I did.

I had a mighty light once that said it would stand up to 1000' drop, shark bites, bear attacks, but no guarantee against small children.:evil:

As I said, once someone has started untangling from the ends all they have done is started tying more knots.
S

I've had 2 times in my kiting history that I've had knots/twists bad enough that I had to disconnect the lines. Kids were involved both times. Kite had twisted and gone through its self several times then it was gathered up and packed up that way. There was no angle into it to start finding the loose loop to get started. I unhooked everything and sat on a bucket in the middle of the garage, then worked out the easiest line till I met resistance then found an easy line to make progress with. I agree with Scudley on 95% of our knots, but sometimes you have to use the "Nuclear Option".

Get yourself a netting needle for those ultimate birds nests. Start with one line poking the netting needle and following that one line where ever it goes. The line that you free up gets wound on the needle so that you are not having to pull long lengths of line. Saved my rear several times. Scudley is right, most tangles have a loop that will
release most of the problem. A broken line death spiral or a loose kite with flailing handles is another story that might have you reaching for the netting needle or the flame thrower.

You have pictures of what a netting needle looks like?

Found one! That might be just the trick for splicing.

Link

para pack the only tangles I get now are out on the playa if the kite comes through the bridle or if one of my chillans get a hold of one like Jeff was talking about oh and wrapped around my rear wheel once but was able to just back out of that and was very fortunate that the kite didn't go into a death spin!

I rarely if ever get tangles and have only had 1 knot. I think it's a result of my packing method.

I know a lot of guys will figure 8 around their handles, which makes me cringe, cuz I always fear it coming loose an knotting up !! I tried this once and it just didn't work out for me.

First I fold the kite with the lines still attached. Tips to the center with bridles and lines attached tucked inside. Then each half folded in half repeatedly until I get that final width that is folded to fit the bag... The standard folding method I believe.

Next I go to my handles and strap the handles together with Velcro with the standard issue PL winder tucked between them. I start by pulling the bottom lines up over the top of the winder and grab the top lines and figure 8 all 4 lines around the winder together.

When I get wound up to around 10" of the folded kite, I wrap 1 or both KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s around the handles and strap the handles to the folded kite and tuck the whole package into the bag.

I think of it like an anal retentive version of para packing. All in all, it takes about 10 minutes to pack and less than 5 to unpack.

I can say without hesitation that I have only had a knot once since I started kiting and it was before I started using this method. Since then, the worst I have experienced is a few twist or maybe one handle got passed through another's lines,... Always easy to solve.

Mougl saw me do this at JIBE and told me I should share my method, and I'm planning to do a vid if I can.

**Edit... I just realized I did that obnoxious thing by posting about something Related to the subject, but not ON subject,... So my point is that I deal with knots in a very proactive and preventative way,... Packing in a super OCD way to avoid them in the first place... Sorry for the veer.

I had my 19m speed 2 fall out of the sky a month and half ago. The entire kite inverted and then somehow right and left side got crossed. After trying to make sense of which way to flip it and then making it worse by flipping it the wrong way, I gave up. Despite better judgement that it should be fixable with the right motions, I carefully took off and reconected each line till it was straightened. There was just a lot of ripstop and even more bridle lines that it was quicker to do that, and I knew I was had it all together. Key there was to only undo one line at a time, or else it would have been a nightmare. On all my other kites its always been easy to pull the bar through a knot or flip the bridle one way or another, thats a benefit of a simpler bridle, and one of the things I miss about arcs.

@ Soliver....we all do it pretty much the same way out here....wrap lines around handles...no figure 8's. Just make sure you unwrap the same way and there are no problems. I used to parapack but found this method to be faster.

Quote: Originally posted by ChrisH

@ Soliver....we all do it pretty much the same way out here....wrap lines around handles...no figure 8's. Just make sure you unwrap the same way and there are no problems. I used to parapack but found this method to be faster.

There are some things I deal with regularly that I'm just OCD about, and I just can't bring myself to wrap my lines that way,... It just too messy for me, and it contributes to a concern that it will become knotted

If you can tell from this pic, this is what I mean:



All I meant to get at was that I feel like my best form of dealing with knots is preventative, meaning that I get anal about packing to avoid the hassle when I'm ready to fly next time.

I know that at times knots are inevitable, I'm just offering my thoughts on a good preventative measure.

I really like that idea for handles.

thanks

On my last drift launch on the Pulse 2 12m, my left brake line was crossed eith the left main line. Nothing else was tangled, but it still confounds me how this happened. In this case, the easiest fix was to disconnect the brake line and unwrap the tangle.

My worse tangle was on a Pulse 10m after pulling the QR and then crashing. The Pulse looped on the center line and then folded inward for good measure.

It took about 20 minutes to sort it out along with some choice curse words for good measure.

My personal record was a three night affair to unravel a rats nest of some Spin Off lines from years ago. I was too poor to afford new lines back then. Now, I'm too old to afford to waste the time and would just buy new lines instead.

-joedy