Y lines suck. I've never liked them, hated them on my Arcs and refused to use them. I can't think of a kite out there that uses a Y line that can't be used with V lines.

The flying characteristics of Y line LEIs sure do change if you fly them on V lines, but I'm not sure about the foil kites since I've only ever flown mine on a Y line. It probably doesn't matter as much with foils as it does with LEIs because of the different kind of bridles.
I must agree that Y lines suck, though.:D

Sure. And they also have some affect on foils as well. Some more than others.

Still, they are interchangeable. For some kites, like arcs, switching from Y to V opens the canopy up, gets you better low end and allows for more flex in the sail in gusty conditions. Y line tightens the canopy up, makes it more nimble etc...

And a total pain in the arse when it inverts.

Seemed like everyone was going Y line. That seems to have abated a bit now. 4.5 is where its at for my tastes. Unless its an Ozone ReRide equipped kite. Apart from THE DANG STOPPER BALL, that system is really pretty sick. Use it for a launching, landing and someday if need be, to depower the kite in an emergency.

Making a bar to match up with a Closed Cell DePower foil kite that has a wingspan of 6.8m. I plan to use a mini 5th line (4.5) safety but want to know how short this safety line could be?

The mini 5th safety line length is from the leash connect point to the single center line attach point (where the bar ends up after the QR is deployed).

With a LEI kite the guideline minimum for the mini 5th length is one kite span. This is so only one line has tension even if it has to reach across the span.

I was thinking for the CC DP foil this should also be one span (6.8m in this case). But maybe shorter is ok too?

I usually prefer 5th lines on large foil kites that I don't loop because they have easy/less spin recovery and the little extra drag from the line is ok.

I have used this kite in light winds on 30m lines with a 55cm pulley bar on a hydrofoil. This old bar has a Front Line Safety that wraps the leash with each loop. My new bar with the mini 5th won't do that. I want to reuse the 30m lines but with short extension lines below the mini 5th upper connection (that run to the bar leader lines). That is my motivation to make the mini 5th line as short as practical, so my 30m + extensions don't get too long.

The bar has 0.6m of throw and, above the bar stop is another 0.3m for the clamcleat, depower rope, ring, and pigtails. So the extension lines could be as short as 5.7m (6.8m-0.6m-0.3m). This is probably too long with a 30m lineset, so a 25m lineset with the 5.7m extensions would be more practical...

Any suggestions/experiences to share :dunno:

Maybe if you could supply a picture of what you have going on, it might help?

I've found that rigging the flag-out to a little more than just half of the kite span is actually helpful on closed cell foils. It seems to help keep bridle tangling from excessive flapping a bit more under control if you keep the flagout a little shorter.

I've used the following flag-out system on 4 bars now; it works great. If I understand what you're trying to do correctly, you could use the same setup and not have to add really any extra extensions. Refer to the pictures below, but basically what you'll want to do is get a couple 3x15mm Stainless Steel rings (ebay), a 20 or 25mm Parrel bead stopper ball (fixmykite.com), and some leader line for your safety. Then all you do is attach one of your front lines through that ring and stopper ball - fix the other front line to a pigtail extension to make sure its even, and you should have it. These have been the smoothest acting safeties I've owned - simple, easy to inspect and very little points of wear or things to go wrong. I have another stopper ball up further on the flag-out line that I can adjust to whatever position and tailor the flagout length, but it's not entirely necessary. If you leave it off, the bar will just flag out the entire span of the kite.

Here are some pictures, one with the general bar layout, the 2nd one showing a closeup of how the flagout line passes through the ring and stopper ball. Hope that helps - you can PM me if you have any questions. Nate

Quote: Originally posted by nate76

I've found that rigging the flag-out to a little more than just half of the kite span is actually helpful on closed cell foils. It seems to help keep bridle tangling from excessive flapping a bit more under control if you keep the flagout a little shorter.

Thanks Nate,

Yea...I was rambling on about bar setups, was thinking aloud and typing as I go. Afterwards I realized I was just describing my old Flysurfer mini 5th setup with the 12m & 6m line segments.

I think you answered my question, that is; you have used a front line flag-out line that is half the span of a closed cell depower foil kite, and it works fine.

Your bars look clean. I planned to use a clamcleat trim which complicates things a little. I have built and used a no-trim bar for a cloud kite because it fully powers/depowers with the throw length of the bar. Thinking aloud again...maybe I'll skip the trim for this kite too because with the pulley bar it fully depowers and, it gives me the extra steering line pull for loops (plus a full upper body workout)

And while I'm rambling, if the kite fully depowers with the bar out, and it is used for light winds, I suppose a suicide leash in place of a (1) FLS, (2) 5th-Line or even a (3) stall/brake strap could be a fourth option. Makes a super clean bar but maybe

Taking the safe out of safety :puzzled:
-5th Line
-Front Line
-Dual Front Lines (Old Cabrinha IDS, Old Ocean Rodeo)
-Dual Brake Lines Bar Stall/Brake Strap (Underpowered Foil Kites)
-Dual Brake Lines Handles (Dual Kite Killers)
-Single Brake Line Bar (Old LEIs, Possible Death Looper)
-Single Brake Line Handles (Single Kite Killer)
-Suicide

I would go a little more than half span to be conservative and to make sure it will completely flag out - especially if you are doing it in a way that doesn't allow adjustment, but that's the general idea.

I know it seems like a step backwards, but I've really become a fan of not having that center clamcleat. It makes everything so clean. You also don't have the long trim line dangling around when you're depowered - getting wrapped around your other lines and brake handle. I've been managing trim in a few different ways. The first is that I just made my center depower rope longer to give more throw. Then I was using line wraps around the bar for the outside lines as a way to make gross adjustments to trim.

The latest method I've been trying can be seen in that last picture: I'm using a couple of 3x15mm SS rings on the outside lines to provide a little better on-the-fly adjustment. Its been working surprisingly well: no slipping, and pretty easy to adjust. I think Ozone used a similar idea in the 2009-ish timeframe, but with webbing if I remember correctly. I think this ring method is probably actually easier to adjust. I made a little video for a couple of my buddies - it wasn't really made for the greater Youtube world, but you can see how the setup works here:



FWIW, the other thing I've become a big believer in is a simple ring termination for the chicken loop. It does require you buy a QR release kit from someone like BoardRiding Maui or Epirigs (cheaper), but once you get one, you can convert all your bars and I think for most hooked-in riders - there's no going back. For one, chickenloops are notoriously big and bulky - so it will shorten all that up and make it much more simple and easy to inspect. The other advantage I've found is that CL's can get really stiff when it is cold, and they sometimes hesitate on fully releasing in those conditions. That problem is completely gone with this sort of setup.

Anyhow, just some food for thought...

Thanks, the video helps explain it well. I'm building a couple bars and I'll try your steering line double ring adjuster on one of the bars, for a kite I only use on the land.

I agree with you on simple QRs without CLs. I like the old style Cabrinha red mushroom QRs.

Ya no problem! I would love to see what you eventually come up with; you'll have to share a picture of your final design.

Hope to take the above setup into the mountains for the 1st time tomorrow - I'll let you know if I find something really wrong with the design.

I have spent the summer flyin Ozones Blizzard/Subzero with the 5th line reride and I Really enjoy it. I've had no issues and it works great for launch and landing. All of my other kites use the same Ozone Contact bar V3 I believe. With the Front line flag out. I like this setup.