I have decided now that I have a job I am going to upgrade my quiver. Right now The main kites I use are my F-arc 1600 and my Guerilla 15M. I use my venom too but don't get many days with enough wind. My f-arc flies in winds where a 21m speed 3 would fall out of the air, about 2 mph. At about 10-12mph the 1600 becomes scary and I swap over to my G-15. That does good till about 18-20mph.

I'm thinking I'm going to sell my 13m, 15m, and 18m G's to fund a Ph2 or Ch2. My question is which is better? I'd be looking at a 15m.

Phantoms are better at land, but have less grunt to get started. My field is pretty small and acceleration may be a problem. They are also not as great on water. I'm not sure if I enjoy water yet as I have never ridden on it. I would be on land for 9 months out of the year and probably 25% of the time on the water during the 3 month summer.

Chargers I heard have more pop but less lift and float, and I am a fan of big floaty jumps. I'm spoiled on my f-arcs . They are more of an all around but is there anything they are better than the phantom at besides water?

I also found a killer deal on a charger 2 and would want to jump on it soon before it sells. I could wait off and get a phantom but if a charger is the way to go I'm ready to pounce. I want to make sure I get the best kite for me because at $8.50 an hour, I don't have a lot of cash to throw around.

Are you buggying or riding the landboard? If water is in the mix, the Phantom will work but isn't the best I imagine. That is diminished by you being not so heavy IIRC. The Phantoms like to go fast and the Chargers have more grunt is the short comparison. I love my Phantom IIs and haven't flown a Charger II yet.

theres no real choice................ch2

I have recently flown both the Charger 2 as well as the Phantom 2. Both are great kites, I must say that I would lean towards the Charger 2 if you are going to be using it on a board, or on the water. It was very impressive in the buggy, and I can only imagine how it must be on the water or over top of a land board! It does turn fast, but differently then the original Charger.

Don't get me wrong, the Phantom 2 is also a great kite, in the buggy, it is sweet as it gets for de power!

I will be putting my charger 2 15m up forsale soon so U2U me if you are interested. It's been used like 4 times total.

Sounds like the charger is the way to go. How would you say it compares to say... a speed 3? I'm curious since I saw that Abe skd was bashing PL in youtube comments today. Some newbie couldn't jump more than 3 feet with is 13m venom 2. He said it was flying PL that was the problem. It obviously isn't. Maybe they believe since a new rider flys a charger with them and does some small jumps and no tricks.

Sorry for the rant but how would you rate the charger2 to other kites?

Edit: whoops! Forgot to ask if my 55 cm bar will work.

And van check your u2u's.

Bwa-hahaha! Check out the Ch2 videos on arcusers.net - good boosts on them!

Arcs jump just fine... so long as you can jump!

your bar should work . . . I believe charger2 is like other arcs . . . 4 lines of equal length etc . . .

CH2 would be choice,

your weight / wind /size kite? water or land riding?

over a speed 3 ? the speed 3 will generate more power, earlier at lower wind speeds, but have less range in general with equivalent size.

you mentioned not enough air for a V 13. out of the list you the 13m is by far the more efficient PL kites. the V13 around 20+ STARTS getting good. the faster u can run it the bigger the airs. the FS in comparison will do it in less air.

if you have decent wind the CH will be great and snappy fast. if u have mostly light air the FS is gonna boost supreme.

I would also go with the charger 2 - i find it a very good all round kite, plenty fast, good boost, easy handling, has power when you need it, etc. I like them both for slightly different reasons but find I go for the Charger 2 far more often.

Quote: Originally posted by van

I will be putting my charger 2 15m up forsale soon so U2U me if you are interested. It's been used like 4 times total.

Oh wow, say it aint so! It was such a beautiful kite...

Phree- I got light winds covered. My f-1600 has me boosting as high as a speed 3 21m in sub 10 knot winds. At about 15-20, my f-1200 brings me close to the height of the jumps in the skd videos. Mind you, I didn't have a board on my feet. I don't have the skills to ride with the f-1200 yet, I always go airborne as I begin to roll. If only those f-arcs had more depower and better downwind, peter lynn would have be on top.

I would consider a speed 3 but...
1. I don't think I have the skills for it. A lot of how high you go with your jump is skill. Speed 3's aren't the most nimble kite to hone your skills on.
2. The gustiness and shiftiness of my wind would make it into a ball of fabric. arcs have a hard time flying and they are crazy stable.
... It isn't suited for me yet. I need more practice to better my skills.

2 things.

I've never heard that the F-arcs were lacking in upwind ability. I've still not flown mine, waiting on a 12-15 mph wind day to get a feel for it.

If your wind is really nasty, and the kite is hard to keep controlled while flying static, chances are things smooth out when you start moving and creating your own more stable apparent wind.

Bob- I meant downwind. I fixed my post now. They go up wind like a dream. They struggle at downwind though. And the wind usually has gusts and lulls of half of the wind speed. If the wind is 10 knots, it will go down to 5 and then up to 15. There is usually big gust, then a lull with a wind shift. This usually just makes my arcs fall back, even if I am riding. My Legend luffs every few minutes from the little wind shifts and it drives a person crazy.

Arcs definitely don't like the wind dropping to 5 and then powering back up. Matter of fact, not many kites do like that. With speed, you can drag the kite along for a bit and hope the wind picks back up again before your apparent wind runs out.

Quote: Originally posted by Nfish

Quote: Originally posted by van   I will be putting my charger 2 15m up forsale soon so U2U me if you are interested. It's been used like 4 times total. Oh wow, say it aint so! It was such a beautiful kite...

Haha... it sold this morning. That was quick.

no board ? you are just running into the jump? apparent wind is where the kite gets the majority of its power. see what just a little roll does .

an arc running downwind on a board...hmm.. heres a V13 going downwind on a board in a supa gusty winter sideshore. gotta keep things moving

http://vimeo.com/37769782

I know when riding you can jump higher, but I haven't amassed the skill to jump with a board very well yet. most of the time when I ride I am really underpowered and I can't even attempt big jumps. And when it is blowing I don't feel comfortable enough to ride with my 1200. The static jumps are huge and it would be terrifying to go bigger than that with a board on my feet.

As for going down wind. My Venom goes downwind fine like yours but it really kills f-arcs. They are so high AR they want to stick to the edge. They don't have the grunt needed to go down wind.

So you want something that boosts, handles gusty winds and will drift downwind? You want an LEI my friend. :evil:

There is so much choice on the market these days you can find one that suits your conditions and style perfectly.

So you want something that boosts, handles gusty winds and will drift downwind? You want an LEI my friend.


i think thats a charger you just described!!

I'm pretty sure I heard Van tell me at the Dead Bird Buggy Bash that the older Peter Lynn arcs perform better in light winds than the newer ones, because the newer arcs were engineered to go faster (most likely to better cater to the kitesurf market instead of the kite buggying one). He told me this after I had asked him why his PL Arc kite was performing so much better than some other guy's arc kite in the same light wind. If course I completely forgot the names/year models of both kites mentioned.

So I guess I'd aim for the oldest Peter Lynn arc models if you want good low-end, and the newer models if you want more speed.

It's all a bit relative on what you consider low end - overall for me almost any arc is not what i would consider a low wind kite. They all shine on the middle to upper end of their ranges. I didn't find the original Phannies had good lower wind and i never liked working the hell out of large Venoms and Synergies. i did find the Charger 1 prone to stalling on low wind and the Phantom 2 has almost no power in VERY light wind. The Charger 2 however is a very good balance of everything so far, it's not at all powerless. But again i don't fly them unless there is enough air to fill them - or close enough to launch - and then enough that they stay in the air without flying them. The 18 Charger 2 is still a big kite but i do like it's handling compared to 19s of other models.

Quote: Originally posted by Sier_Pinski

I'm pretty sure I heard Van tell me at the Dead Bird Buggy Bash that the older Peter Lynn arcs perform better in light winds than the newer ones, because the newer arcs were engineered to go faster (most likely to better cater to the kitesurf market instead of the kite buggying one). He told me this after I had asked him why his PL Arc kite was performing so much better than some other guy's arc kite in the same light wind. If course I completely forgot the names/year models of both kites mentioned. So I guess I'd aim for the oldest Peter Lynn arc models if you want good low-end, and the newer models if you want more speed.

I think we were talking about stability .. not low end. The older arcs are more stable. The newer ones are faster turning so are twitchy.

Keep in mind opinions are just that, opinions. The performance of a give kite brand, type and model is going to vary from rider to rider. Skill, expirience, willingness to work for it and application are all factors. A buggy rider will find that a given kite will do some things better or worse than a water rider or snow/land rider.

And I have to disagree with Mark on his postion of not flying an Arc if he can't get it inflated. If I followed that guidline I'd miss a hell of a lot of good riding. :P

That is an old adage about arcs. "If you can fill it, you can fly it". However in conditions where you are using really large arcs and/or the winds are higher aloft than on the ground, some artificial inflation can save your session.

I remember just a year or two ago I got ahold of an old arc owners manual. In it it stated that if there isn't enough wind to inflate it that Peter Lynn dealers offered an electronic inflation unit.

Never seen one tho,

We artificially inflate 90% of the time. Somehow this last snowkite season we got luck and only used the inflator about 50% of the time. I gotta admit it's nice to ust inflate normally and go.

Phantom or Charger you can't go wrong. For speed, I say PH2 for all round awesome fun and ease CH2.

We get a lot of conditions with no surface wind but plenty up where the 40m lines reach. Luckily.

Quote: Originally posted by Feyd

Keep in mind opinions are just that, opinions. The performance of a give kite brand, type and model is going to vary from rider to rider. Skill, expirience, willingness to work for it and application are all factors. A buggy rider will find that a given kite will do some things better or worse than a water rider or snow/land rider.

true dat!
arc units have range and performance most never realize.