Power Kite Forum

Phoil werks

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PHREERIDER - 1-24-2016 at 06:34 PM

ok here we go. gonna add this to a LF foil fish.



if i can get 1/2 season and some usable experience and insight on this whole thing, we'll see! it'll be phun!

indigo_wolf - 1-24-2016 at 07:32 PM

Kind of strange that the board is $337 and the foil is $862. :rolleyes:

Are you going to taper any of the leading edges?

ATB,
Sam

PHREERIDER - 1-24-2016 at 08:14 PM

yes on the wings topside will be tapered a bit, gonna go flat, seems good starting point and dress the remaining edges down as far as i can.

to do in AL not that much more... after glass and hardware around $100-125. carbon or aramide can add 3x as much .

a la carte parts are ready to go from different companies for foil. LF fish seems all around good as any having the straps already there just will make getting started easier, hopefully!

yeah steal on the fish $!

ssayre - 1-24-2016 at 08:56 PM

Oak? Poly or paint?

IFlyKites - 1-24-2016 at 09:00 PM

Looks sweet! :thumbup:

PHREERIDER - 1-25-2016 at 05:52 AM

oak with S glass resin layup, may vacuum bag if i decide to part it out. one solid piece seems quick and easy. not in a rush ..yet.

Randy - 1-25-2016 at 06:19 AM

Its phantastic!

PHREERIDER - 1-25-2016 at 07:35 AM

thanks guys !

if i get 20-30hours on it , it will have served its purpose

BeamerBob - 1-25-2016 at 08:04 AM

I'm a little slow I guess. What did you buy? What did you make? Your going to do fiberglass work on the wood? You bought a board that's made for a foil? Thanks!

indigo_wolf - 1-25-2016 at 09:01 AM

Quote: Originally posted by BeamerBob  
I'm a little slow I guess. What did you buy? What did you make? Your going to do fiberglass work on the wood? You bought a board that's made for a foil? Thanks!


I understood him to mean he bought the LF Foil Fish board (left) and home-brewed a version of its companion foil (right).



ATB,
Sam

PHREERIDER - 1-25-2016 at 09:02 AM

buying the board by LF , a FOIL FISH , it is a directional with a foil plate ready bottom. the recent price drop makes it an easy choice 337$!

i am making the foil , pic above, an oak base that i will do in S-glass fiberglass.

in general a taste test of how much am i really gonna ride this thing, plus i just like making junk like this

PHREERIDER - 1-25-2016 at 09:07 AM

thanks SAM,
and too. if i really like it (after learning) i may do one in AL or by foil parts a la carte.

a carbon foil is a distant maybe, i would really have to want a faster race like set up , thats if i'm really diggin' it.

ssayre - 1-25-2016 at 09:13 AM

where do you get your glass and resin? I have a few projects in mind.

PHREERIDER - 1-25-2016 at 09:45 AM

west marine is local here with limited shelf stuff and could use what they have, but looks like i am gonna go with TAP online , specific glass choices and #314 resin and 109 catalyst

BeamerBob - 1-25-2016 at 12:35 PM

I've ridden AirChair foils behind the boat and as sensitive as they were for me, I don't see how they work for a stand on board. If you get a few things not quite right I imagine it will be like a boat anchor hanging off the board. I hope it works! Chalk one up for the little guy.

PHREERIDER - 1-25-2016 at 04:46 PM

ok Bob welcome to the phuture it contains phreedom on a phoil

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62k3D6Jb69s&list=PLrbSqo...

but now i can't even embbed a player and i intend on making the foil myself.

the basic slow foils are easy to make and ride. the fast efficent foils a little bit more tricky.

BeamerBob - 1-25-2016 at 05:26 PM

it looks like magic to me. I think the foils have come a long way from what I rode.



Bladerunner - 1-25-2016 at 06:44 PM

Are you just learning to Phoil?


I was talking to a fellow the other day who was telling me how the Okanagon crew had a " trainer ? foil that they passed around. I guess it was shorter / smaller? Sped up the whole crews progression.


If you are learning and building you may want to consider making a smaller one as well?


PHREERIDER - 1-25-2016 at 08:35 PM

yes BR , a short mast version is a consideration. the mast is at 900mm now and maybe, make a shorty mast to feel it out with at first. 600/650mm. but my gut is to go with the platform i am to ride . in this DIY version, making the mast a bit shorter might extend its lifespan as well so 750-800mm may be final. we'll see??, once i really dig into the shaping before glassing i will know... esp. once i get the board with it.

and in general, the drag alone will make it a bit clumsy and slow. this is mostly so i can learn and go out in decent wind with a strapped "heavy board" not a squirrelly light one which would just beat me up! in my directional sessions, when i went out in solid air they where SOOO much better than the sketchy light air sessions. it means about 20 hours of good TT wind for me to learn, then fit the foil sessions in the marginal TT/ and good ATB wind... which is a considerable amount of my riding. so if i like this, i will lessen ATB riding for more foil time.

Kamikuza - 1-25-2016 at 08:53 PM

Go for it!

Short mast would be ok if you have a flat water spot...

I just got one of those setups used...

PHREERIDER - 1-26-2016 at 06:10 AM

right on KK! plan on going with LF parts and pieces as long as this DIY gets me thru the spring summer for a trial go.


Bladerunner - 1-26-2016 at 08:50 AM

Sounds like you are on top of the game.
The way the guy described it is like what you expect. Learning foil handling was easier with the small one but as soon as each person was up and going they went straight to a more efficient foil.

Kami makes a good point. These guys all learned on a lake. You may NEED a longer foil to deal with your surf?

PHREERIDER - 1-26-2016 at 09:50 AM

surf/chop action is a factor 6-8 foot rollers and mega chop can be very rough here, so i want the height eventually , but for now i want just enough stupid in the wings so it not stupid fast! hopefully as build comes together, and some fly time comes out of it, by the end of summer ready to buy a tricked out foil.. the fish board actually my prove fun by itself!

Kamikuza - 1-26-2016 at 09:06 PM

Lake chop here is so gnarly that getting out to deep enough water to start the foil takes me 20 minutes, on a light wind day!

The board is pretty tough looking, not SB construction at all. Supposed to be an ok low wind board too.

Plenty of people with the LF foil who haven't gone to a "better" foil...

PHREERIDER - 2-3-2016 at 04:39 PM

LF FOIL FISH on the way!...want be too long now! board looks fun by itself, definitely ride it ASAP

Kamikuza - 2-10-2016 at 05:07 AM

Mate, the new Slingshot HoverGlide looks like a better foil, and is the same price! But I got mine cheap so it's moot...

My advice:

At least wear a helmet.
> I landed on the board or something after bailing, and cut my head :barf:

Find a spot with decently deep water, where you can just jump in.
> Our spot, you have to fight out through waist- to chest-deep water for about 600m before you can try riding the board without grounding. I did 90 minutes on day one: maybe 10 of which was attempting to ride :(

(If you have the LF board and straps) set the straps to the widest holes, and the longest they'll go ie. the holes at the end of the straps.
> Apparently, the board is well-balanced with the straps centered, but you want to be able to bail easily, especially the rear foot. Being able to slide the back foot forward in the strap as you waterstart helps, and is easier than riding with the rear foot out of and in front the strap, as people have suggested is a good way to learn.

First sessions, you're going to want to learn to body drag if it's shallow, and then ride the board with the foil in water, concentrating on keeping the nose down.
> See above. It comes up so easy and feels so weird, even if you're used to directionals!

Stick to the foil until you've got a good grasp on it. Going back and to a different board is too weird.

Never pooh-stance.

PHREERIDER - 2-10-2016 at 06:34 AM

got the fish yesterday, nice board for 300$! definitely will ride ASAP!

i did set the straps as wide as possible , like you mentioned.

the build is coming along for the foil, i set the mast at 750 and working through the cut back.

i have added carbon weave as well to the build . really digging the build ATM .

now that i have the board i can set the to plate holes and move along.

the ride will be fun and new , the straps to me seem a hindrance in general but i 'll get it sorted and see if buying a production foil is in the phuture

, thanks K






Flyfish - 2-10-2016 at 07:13 AM

Hey phree,
I made a foil and used G10 for the wings. I really suggest you try that. It's not hard at all to sand the G10. I used a liquid force mast and made a fuselage out of 3/4 x 3/4 solid aluminum square stock. It was not difficult at all.
I could walk you through the steps if you wanted.

My only regrets:
I think I should hade made a lower aspect ratio wing set up. Really I should have simply made two sets of wing because it's not hard to to. Should have made a low aspect set to learn on.
Also I should have made a second longer fuselage to compliment the lower aspect wings. Would have had more stability to learn on also.


Ps. I ride only strapless surfboard, but tried first time strapless foil, and it was a disaster! I ended up using one strap for front foot SUPER loose. So loose that all it does is hold the board while you get ready to start.


image.jpg - 123kB

Kamikuza - 2-10-2016 at 07:47 AM

Yah, I had the rear strap work loose and it was a PITA. Love my strapless surfboard, hate it on the foil...

How did you do the G10?

PHREERIDER - 2-10-2016 at 07:57 AM

hey thanks, i actually have the AL stock from other projects and considered using same and may still, the G-10 is still a consideration some old windsurf fins i have keep reminding me too.

the mock-up shape base in oak is mostly for design, lines and holes in general, and to finish it out ---> carbon/S-glass has been the choice up til now. since i just got the board now i'm ready to order build junk, so your post is timely reminder to all options. funny the AL i have is 1"X 1/2 and is already marked to be cut for fuselage !

the whole carbon/glass build and vacuum bag thing is an element i want to learn/practice more for several other projects so by next week i will have an order ready. might as well add G-10 in there too.

i have the same thoughts about the multiple sets as well. nice tidy set you have there . i set my fuselage at 750mm i felt the length would make lift more gradual without being sensitive. its a thought no practice yet! we 'll see.

definitely interested in the #'s you have . thanks!


Flyfish - 2-10-2016 at 08:20 AM

I bought a sheet of G10 on eBay (see pic). Then cut the wings using a jig saw with a blade that I bought from harbor freight that would cut abrasive material. Don't worry about how it looks at that stage. Then you sand the wings. Round the leading edge of both wings.
Then on the front wing foil (sand) the top surface only. Basically sand so that the leading edge is full thickness, then tapers down to the rear edge to be thin. Remember to pay attention to the tips to make them nice and thin. But the bottom of the front wing is left flat.
The rear wing I rounded the leading edge, then foiled both sides of the wing so that its semetrical (sic).

I thought the G10 would be hard to sand, but it's not bad. That's how the hand made windsurfer fins were made. Just wear protective gear.

image.jpg - 82kB

PHREERIDER - 2-10-2016 at 08:55 AM

yes , i have shaped same, with a 3/8 " sheet! , man thats saves bunch of work for sure.

considerably less ($) than carbon! i will definitely make a set from G10 . i knew i marked the Al for a reason!

an aluminum mast is in 70 $ range and beats out the ,carbon resin layup easily and 1/10 of the work!

oh choices ! man we're swimming in phun now!

thanks FLYFISH






Flyfish - 2-10-2016 at 09:49 AM

Hey Phree,
Send me your address. I'll send you a paper templet of my wings. I did a ton of research on aspect ratio, and feel like mine are a good ratio. Not too high and not too low. (But agiain, I'd make a second set that's super fat to learn easier!)

PHREERIDER - 2-10-2016 at 06:45 PM

ok , sessioned with fish board , heavier air than i would typically go in but this was offshore and flat stuff , so board indeed is fun! with the straps i felt clumsy but the board alone needs no straps, pretty sure the foil situation will want to use them.

and flyfish dropped sweet intel on foil build action and just may bag the carbon/glass bag stuff and straight to cut, grind and bolt... done!

Aluminum with G10 wings... way simple , and instantly effective.

and also got new Dakine low profile fusion harness ...phresh and deluxe



Kamikuza - 2-10-2016 at 11:15 PM

Nice! You liked the board as a directional?

I found waist or hybrid much better for the foil. You don't need to hold down power--you don't want to be powered at all, in fact. Ease of movement in the water and where it pulls from are better with a waist...

...for me :)

PHREERIDER - 2-11-2016 at 06:08 AM

i was in solid TT wind on a 9m and flat so yeah its was easy and fun, much more nimble feeling than my sweet potato firewire which is a quad( fish is thruster setup). i would have never gone on my surf board in those conditions, the TT action is way to sweet! but since the straps were on it i did not think twice about it.

i am short waisted and have been through them all, seat is fine for me, AND i don't use straps on the seat. it just fits and does not ride up at all. i use more like a contoured waist with a butt cup, man that sounds funny.

Kamikuza - 2-11-2016 at 08:27 PM

Seat on the foil, I meant. Greatly prefer Fusion + Dynabar the rest of the time... I've a Mystic Star that I prefer if late.

You want some anhedral on those wings for yaw stability...or add a vertical stabilizer eg. TT fin...

Flyfish - 2-11-2016 at 09:57 PM

exellent point on the twin tip fin for a stabilizer! great suggestion. i didnt put one on, but i think its a good idea.

i sent off those templetes. hopefully they help!

Kamikuza - 2-12-2016 at 03:13 AM

You need a longer fuselage too :D

ssayre - 2-12-2016 at 06:26 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Kamikuza  
You need a longer fuselage too :D


that's what she said

PHREERIDER - 2-12-2016 at 07:33 AM

the fuselage on the mock up is 750mm long, seems longer than most of the data i have seen. any longer i think the plane rate woud be too slow and add unnecessary stress fuselage body and produce undesireable drag which seemingly take more power to move. more would make it just too slow and negatively effect yaw .

the vertical stab on the rear is a thought i considered , but the body of the fuselage (and mast as well) add to yaw control esp with near 50mm in fuselage height , with the Al fuselage i have its 24.5mm so it is a possible add on. everything i have read discusses it but have yet to see only one , i think with fluid dynamics of water the fuselage is ample yaw moment control. and even a super small vertical tab <25mm would be more than plenty IF the steerage is super squirelly.

thanks FF , the G10 set of wings will be instantly! sweet for sure. the current wing set i have should finish out as the super fat set. the Al mast will reduce cost by easily 75% ! over the sexy carbon lay up which i'm kinda glad its currently derailed for the moment.

the prefab sheets just are gonna make it easier, than making my on sheets with the S glass.

thanks guys for adding to it. more mirth the merry!

another sesssion on the dakine Fusion on ATB yesterday , gonna order another one !!!

Kamikuza - 2-12-2016 at 09:51 PM

Cool! Looks really short in the picture :D

There's a thread at kf.com called "fuselage?" IIRC. A guy with a LF foil plays with lengths of fuselage... the stock is 610mm IIRC and the extended is 710, but he goes up to 200% longer with homemade... he decided that 150% was the best length, again IIRC, for various important reasons :D


PHREERIDER - 2-13-2016 at 06:38 AM

hey thanks K, the shorter are snappy wave foils i believe, i am in right neighborhood of length. mast /fuselage point of connection i think has more effect of reaction rate. that is where i am most concerned for criticial placement...thinking closing to the TE of the front wing is favored for lift rate sensitivity.

i'll definitely check it out, seems i my have already. the more the better!

Kamikuza - 2-13-2016 at 08:52 PM

He he he...have a go, then get back to us about how soon you want to get into waves :D I really got to get a balance board...

Have a look at Greg of BoardridingMaui fame--his foil looks like a LF foil, with the mast further back from the TE of the wing. I think that's ok when the design speed for the foil is low, as when you get up to speed I think you'd have trouble weighting the front foot enough to keep it down--apparently a problem with over-powered LF foils...

Gent playing with length still thought the 150% was good in waves IIRC, being much better all around.

PHREERIDER - 2-14-2016 at 07:02 AM

Just got a text from Scott at Maui boardriding! he's the other guy riding with greg. my wife worked with him in the late 90's... he told me that the foils are made by Jim Stringfellow in washington. they do have a unique wing tip on the main wing. and yeah looks alot like LF mast !

scott and greg have ultra smooth action in the waves, those guys are super nimble. like everything just takes practice, practice, practice. my friend tells me it'll be kicking my azzz for a while


Flyfish - 2-14-2016 at 07:47 AM

Yea Phree, it WILL kick your ass! Good ass kicking, but super humbling.
In the liquid force tutorial videos they say just to swim around with it on first day. I didn't but see why they say to, because it feels like a tank that won't move the way you want it to at first. Then when you go to start, you'll be surprised (make that frustrated) how when you tip the board on its side, if you let go, it just sinks back to flat in no time. Thus the need initially for at least one strap to throw your foot into and hold it in place in order to start up. Trust me, that's where I thought "why would I need straps? I hate them on surf boards". I could not start without them. Then, once you stand up (and I do mean once you stand up) lean onto the front foot HARD. And then let the fun begin! You'll quickly understand the term porpous!

At any rate, don't worry about that now, just build the unit! Templets should get there this week!

PHREERIDER - 2-26-2016 at 05:28 PM

sessioned on (foil) fish board, decent time and speeds , little joker is nice man. snappy carvy . straps ruin it. i have to drop the back one....after foil education prolly drop the front. straps are just in the way.

while foil is off, the bolt holes are fountains on the ride , for some reason makes my toeside so much stronger. i guess i'm more upright.

ran with 9m with solid wind, very comfortable setup. could run all day on it, kinda feel. definitely could see this as nice island hopper.

in chop was not too spanky at all, may be because of the load ! NOT a light wind board for a big rider, need solid TT air. for smaller rider may do well in light, jumbo skim board !

deep bargain fun there! foil parts comimg ,looking at next week.

Kamikuza - 2-27-2016 at 03:55 AM

What FlyFish said.

Body drag: get the board on its side, hold the front strap, get your body up the board cos the foil will lift it when it starts moving :o I hold the front step like I'm halfway through doing bicep curls, lie on my back like I'm on a deck chair, and enjoy the ride...

Starting: two options... this is for a port tack.
a. kite just to starboard. Board to starboard, flat in the water, facing downwind. Put your right hand on the tail's far rail, forearm across the board, lever it up and get your feet onto it. Redirect the kite for a regular water start...
b. kite just to port. Board to port, flat in the water, facing upwind. Put your left hand on the far rail ahead of the front strap, lever the board upright and get your feet onto it. Send the kite back to starboard and follow it with ththe board, then send it and water start...

Obviously, a. is the normal option but b. is good if you're lazy and can't be bothered moving the board around or your weak flying the kite with one hand or other.

First rides are spent wondering if you really need that weight in the front foot, not believing what's happening, then leaning back...BOING!

...

I had the rear strap come off mid-session once. It was tough riding the rest of the session. I want to go strapless sometimes, but I also want to jump. But gibing is tough when you trip over the straps...

PHREERIDER - 3-1-2016 at 01:30 PM

just wrapped up orders for Al 6061, G10 sheet, including SS harware and LF nylon mount, under 120$. (shipping not included)

KK, Fly...so close i can taste the slammage! gotta get it going, looking like MAUI is on the horizion.


Kamikuza - 3-1-2016 at 09:55 PM

You can buy hex-cross section aluminum bar that is exactly what the LF fuselage is... Mill the top down, round the edges, and it'd be identical.

Looking forward to the phreek out report! There's a lot more phreedom coming your way :D

PHREERIDER - 3-4-2016 at 12:59 PM

no session today, cut it.

and the start...$35 +10min. maybe shape tomorrow, if wind is down.


oh yeah, added +20mm to chord of front wing

Flyfish - 3-4-2016 at 11:10 PM



Sweet!

PHREERIDER - 3-7-2016 at 05:28 PM

Right on FLYFISH! despite 2 sessions this weekend i did manage to cut and true ends of mast and fuselage .

mast has been finished to 823mm by 4" x 1/2" (solid 6061)

fuselage is currently 723mm by 1" x 1/2" (LF is only about 630mm not counting plastic tips which around 20mm x 2) may add some variable taps for things like vertical stabilizer, rear wing advancement. mast position relative to wing LE, etc..

centered, marked and ready to drill/tap. hardware is all based on M8 SS, the LF pack is nice the nylon plate and bolts making things way too easy, only had buy 4 extra bolts , 2 for mast top and 2 longer for rear wing which i could've used the shorter in the pack but extra finishing work on wing does not fit the currently ultra low hassle coarse i am on.

also taken the time to do a diagram of all dimensions of mast/fuselage/relative bolt placement which i will add to Flyfish template sheet(+20mm of chord, which i laminated ) once all tested and proven phitness ...will make available on a pass along basis.

get some pics once assembled and then tighten up the shape and finish. oh what phun!

PHREERIDER - 3-16-2016 at 08:23 AM

sessions and motoX trip have delayed progress...but Kami's vid has me amped hopefully get some full bolt pics tomorrow or friday.

scored first couple wetsuit free sessions!

PHREERIDER - 3-17-2016 at 04:01 PM

making some head way, first dry assembly. still have some shaping, finishing and minor tweaking, glad to be this far.

may upsize fuselage , went with LF length (635mm)and mast positon.

feel like the fuselage at 1"x 1/2" will work but may duplicate in 1"x 3/4" and a fraction longer like 700mm and reduce rear wing width a fraction.

mast and wing shaping on deck , should get most over weekend if wind is down.

everything buttoned up real nice ..need to weigh it.







Flyfish - 3-17-2016 at 07:55 PM

That's what I'm talkin about!
Love it!

As far as mast / front wing position, you basically want the front wing to be centered on your stance. Looks like you got that.

Remember when you are shaping the mast that the majority of drag comes from the rear not the leading edge. So if try to focus more energy into getting a nice tapered sharp (realitively) edge and the front can basically be rounded off.

Also remember to use lock tight on your hardware on final assembly. You don't want to lose your hard work to the bottom of the ocean.

Good job. It's soooo much more satisfying building your own!

Kamikuza - 3-18-2016 at 05:56 AM

Looking good! :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

I think you may want want a bit of fuselage nose poking past the LE of the wing, to protect it when you nail the bottom.
Also think you'll want a thicker fuse; I believe the OEM one is hex bar with 32mm between faces...? I can check that if you want, but you can buy it online at about $50 for a 3 foot length...if you live in the US :borg:

I've got the 710cm fuselage now. Had 2 sessions on the longest setting, and 1 today on the shortest, which is a tad longer than the old one. I think I prefer the shorter setting...

Looks like your wing has less area than the LF one...be interesting to hear how that works.

I can't believe you like the Fish by itself...I rode it last week; it was horrid. Skittish, didn't seem to want to go upwind, and not big/volume enough to use like a surfboard. Was fun jumping and not having to worry about it not being under my feet, though.

Sam--the board is simple technology, they probably churn them out in the zillions. Simple, but bloody solid. Walked the nose into a concrete wall today--no damage :D

PHREERIDER - 3-18-2016 at 06:10 AM

thanks Fly!, the mast, top plate and wings really are spot on, the fuelage i want more beefy. the 1/2 is what i had and just a little torque flex has me concrened. for a ligther rider doubtful it would be a problem.

yeah the mast, round on front and tapered to a tight edge on the rear.

the loctite was my first choice but anti-sieze gets the job. once torqued they're not going anywhere.

man that was quick too, with the tap map i have i can make a fuselage in about 30min!..i might have 2hours in it total at this point

i figure i have about an hour of finishing to go.

the sweetness of your own build is deeply satisfying, you just can't reach that with $

PHREERIDER - 3-18-2016 at 06:30 AM

hey KK, i have stuck to the LF layout on fuselage (1:1 image harvest with inset reference ) and they don't cover LE of front wing

the wing is less chord than the LF, i hoping it has a fraction less drag and a speedier effect. it is much bigger than most DIY for starter setup also a bit wider.

its just like FlyFish setup but +20mm of chord, his apparently works fine being even smaller(which he said was harder to learn on )

love the little board for sure, took the back strap off and its nice and rippy, way more nimble the my surfboard.

when i tool out the fatter fuselage (which only $12 ) may set at 635mm (maybe+20mm or so) roughly same as LF without tips

its coming together, thanks KK .

Kamikuza - 3-18-2016 at 10:22 PM

I can measure my fuse, if you like...I *think* it's better than the shorter one, but that one's bent so who knows :D

Some of the DIY set ups I've seen...I reckon you could ride two planks of unshaped wood. Won't matter in the beginning, and when you're a half-meter off the water, "normal" speed seems way too fast! Especially when it's ventilating on you :-/


PHREERIDER - 3-19-2016 at 08:06 AM

sure measure it, that would be great... USING HOLE CENTER TO HOLE CENTER

from the first hole center(of the 3 in front) to the last hole center on the 2 holes of the rear wing, don't include pointed ends or actual ends of metal. mine is about 615mm (roughly 24 1/4" original stock)

and while you are at it,

from the first hole center(of the 3 in front) to the first hole center of the MAST , stock should be around 215mm (roughly 8 1/2") , mine is about 203mm and i actually would like it shorter to control rate and reduce sensitivity of lever action

AND the distance between the mast bolt holes! just for curiosity, center to center i am at 58mm, (roughly 2 1/4")

thanks KK should be close, cool!



Kamikuza - 3-20-2016 at 02:58 AM

<==o=o=o====o=o==========o=o=o==>
<......wing..........mast........................stab......>
<16|45|45|-120-|57|-------323-------|45|45|16>

From the start of the aluminum fuse to center of first wing hole: 16mm
45mm: wing and stab holes
120mm: last wing hole to mast hole
57mm: mast holes
323: last mast hole to first stab hole
All holes measured at centers.

Total fuselage length: 782mm incl tips, 715mm of aluminum fuselage.

I hope my ASCII art works up there cos it makes the most sense to me.

The stock one was about 20mm shorter than the new one in the shortest position...

PHREERIDER - 3-20-2016 at 05:56 AM

thanks man!

hey you got three holes on the rear , i have only seen 2 holes, and the bolt pack only has 2 as well, maybe you got lost in your art work symmetry...

210mm first wing hole to first mast hole , i am at 203mm my stock meassure harvest was 215mm ...feel confident thats solid and as close as it needs to be for the purpose.

mast holes at 57mm, i put mine at 58mm i had to go with easier symmetry!

first wing hole to last wing hole is 635mm (if there are only 2). i am at 615mm ...20mm shorter

i would say its pretty close , thanks for the details it confirms alot. the images i have of a stock fuselage only has 2 rear wing holes, the fuselage sold seperately like the longer one you have, or on newer units maybe be different, anyway all good info

so you liked the shorter setting ? for ride comfort at speed, speed control, stability, sensivityfor rise control??

Kamikuza - 3-20-2016 at 07:30 AM

That's the extended fuselage: it offers two settings for the stab. The "shorter" setting is about 20mm longer than the OEM. So sounds like you're perfect for the OEM.

The original is orange anodized, the extended is black...
http://liquidforcekites.com/product/foils/longer-aluminium-f...
Comes in carbon too, for a whole lot more bucks.

I would like to try the foil with the mast moved closer to the TE of the wing...but can't be bothered making anything :D

...

I'm still puttering around at comfortable speed, rather than chasing top end :D I'm chicken! Longer setting *seems* more reactive to swells under the water, but is slower to react, so there's a lot more porpoising. At least, that's what I remember. I'm going to try it on the longer setting again tomorrow to be sure.

Might have something to do with the wings, too!

PHREERIDER - 3-20-2016 at 08:11 AM

Yeah I think moving the mast is by far the most sensitive root of feel and sensitivity .

Thanks for the #'s ....I will do a fuse' in 3/4" and take a ride

PHREERIDER - 3-21-2016 at 07:00 PM

making head way on shaping. got about hour on wings and an hour on the mast . so depiste decent couple sessions , things are moving along, at phoil speed!

may polish, but feeling kinda done. pics tomorrow if wind is down.

PHREERIDER - 3-22-2016 at 07:10 PM

supersession ATB/water... phoiled progress.


and looks to be the case for couple days if not into weekend, man i am so grateful for dropping the vaccum bag direction!

maybe friday morning knock out the 3/4 " fuselage , bolt and ---->RIDE! looks like a beach blast finish will have to do

heres the last off the shaping mast front/topplate and wings


mast and plate before shape

PHREERIDER - 3-25-2016 at 04:57 PM

and kinda done now, 3/4" fuselage , everything squeezed ...soon as wind sets up. might as well let the elements finish it.


Flyfish - 3-25-2016 at 10:50 PM

Close! I'd refine the wings a touch. You can thin out the tips. I'll try to take a picture tomarrow.

Flyfish - 3-25-2016 at 10:50 PM

Close! I'd refine the wings a touch. You can thin out the tips. I'll try to take a picture tomarrow.

PHREERIDER - 3-26-2016 at 05:33 AM

It's half thickness at tapered end over 2/3 of area, if its TOO draggy and slow . Today is the last day I'm gonna touch it. It's all ride now. I'm ready to give a go! Thanks for the help man!

PHREERIDER - 3-26-2016 at 05:43 AM

Not that sure on how thin to go on tips , just went and looked at old windsurf fins , definitely could take down a fraction more

Flyfish - 3-26-2016 at 10:54 AM

I think your mast attach ment location might be better than mine. Mine might be too far forward.

But here's a few pics of mine.

image.jpg - 28kB image.jpg - 35kB image.jpg - 18kB

PHREERIDER - 3-26-2016 at 03:59 PM

thanks for the images. the rear is there . front wing i will reduce more esp. last 1/5 of chord and tip.

did water test in pool with wings and fuelage, man that joker darts out of my hand! effortless forward motion. reconfirmed fuselage balance point for pitch and yaw. held in the right spot (where the bolt are)its effortless to control, anywhere else requires more control effort.

will add one more round of finish, ready to squeeze and ride. thanks again

wind is down , looks like deluxe finish may be within reach

Flyfish - 3-27-2016 at 06:56 AM

I've been thinking about my set up. I think I need to move my mast back on the fuselage. It's super hard to control pitch at speed. Fully rideable but super hard to adjust pitch corrections. I thought it was just part of the game. When I made my setup, I just thought forward was better. So I'm going to remount the mast back to your location.

This now brings up a second question that I may have not done correctly:

When I remount the mast to the fuselage, where is the front wing in relation to your foot stance?

I mounted mine with the front wing directly under my stance (between my two feet). Now I'm not sure that is where yours is?

Flyfish - 3-27-2016 at 07:25 AM

Now I'm not sure... I was just on the "other forum" and was watching a video on the slingshot foil. They have their mast mounted right next to the front wing also. Now I'm back to being confused.
Does it matter that much?


image.png - 82kB

PHREERIDER - 3-27-2016 at 09:57 AM

you have to add lever action of board mount not just mast point on fuselage. esp. with hi AR front wing

your stance, weight, position and technique all add into YOUR position over the power generating position of the foil.

small wing in rear can push more balance forward(also the reverse as well) , and some +/_ pitch added to rear can compensate lift if needed.

staright, square and balanced, add drag to slow things down those are the basics. a ton tweaking to every element can change ride, speed and handling.

the only avoidance is tail heavy, tail heavy bird won't fly.

a learning foil seems by my understanding to have centralized balance so a decent effort to foil is needed , and control is forgiving .

in the picture considerable effort to get that unit to foil at decent speed, the super short mast even reduces foil action even more . being so close to power generation requires large lever control , hence its rearward mount on the board.

you have to choose one and go with a reasonablily matched proper set up or you are in for struggle, so it seems .

all squeezed and locked! wind is down so few rounds on finish

Flyfish - 3-27-2016 at 10:33 AM

Thanks Phree,
I actually can foil my ride, but I'm still full rookie stage. I find that I can foil decent, but when my speed builds I don't seem to control the slow steady increase in lift the foil keeps making, and I break the surface. I'm using one strap in front only for the start up. But once up, don't need it. But I think my stance is just a tiny bit to far back. I'm going to leave my mast/fuselage alone, but I just this morning moved the mast back an inch on the board.

I haven't foiled since the end of last season. Winter here is pure surf plus started a new job, no kite. But now you have me pumped to get out on the foil again!

Here's my ride now after moving mast back an inch:


image.jpeg - 98kB image.jpeg - 108kB

PHREERIDER - 3-27-2016 at 11:40 AM

if your a lighter rider YOU definitely will need to be froward on that to keep it down , the tail of the board prolly not doing much but skyjacking you at speed.

the rate of lift only increases as speed increases AND sensivity . a paper shim at front of rear wing may reduce high speed ramping .

looks to me the setup would be blistering fast IF you could keep it down! your back foot would be really close to mast point.

the fuselage/ mast is set for speed , the board/mast relationship is set to learn with more centralized balance.

good move on putting it back, it will give MORE leverage on keeping it down

PHREERIDER - 3-27-2016 at 03:46 PM

somewhere in polishing

PHREERIDER - 3-27-2016 at 03:54 PM

how it all connects...




Flyfish - 3-27-2016 at 06:35 PM

So.... I'm just impressed your wife lets you put it ontop of the piano! Looks great.

I rode mine today. Moving the mast rear was a very good thing. Much less touchy to the kangaroo thing. Haven't ridden it in 9 months so was re learning abounch today. But having more authority over my front foot gave my back foot more ability to steer.
Decent day.

Good luck!

PHREERIDER - 3-27-2016 at 07:22 PM

cool man glad you had a good go!...i may get out tomorrow.

...its my piano and is more than just a piano.

Kamikuza - 3-27-2016 at 10:03 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Flyfish  
Now I'm not sure... I was just on the "other forum" and was watching a video on the slingshot foil. They have their mast mounted right next to the front wing also. Now I'm back to being confused.
Does it matter that much?



Doesn't matter much, it's how it all balances out in the end. Mast closer to the wing TE is less torque on the fuselage, which can bend. I know, cos I bent my old fuse...but still rode it for a dozen sessions.

I think you need more of a tear-drop shape on the mast, but I'll bet you'll ride it just fine. Just get out and try it!

PHREERIDER - 3-28-2016 at 06:15 PM

missed the breeze today, got more coming. gonna get a ride this week .

KK its gonna roll as is. i just want to get out on it! it'll only tweaked if theres a problem, hopefully get out ASAP




PHREERIDER - 3-30-2016 at 05:36 AM

after watching the houtson kiteboarding vid on grigirib's thread posted by rtz, i became more weight conscious of my build. put on the scale 12.2lbs!

definitely the battle ax!

i think the SS hover was 11.2 so not too far out of the herd but somehow it may help with the introduction rides , hopefully ....TODAY!

grigorib - 3-31-2016 at 08:42 AM

The trailing edge of the mast is the axe! I saw a foil flip in the air in front of a guy slicing the front line OFF and sending the kite down in a "funny" way.
And that damn fuselage spear...another guy showing a mark on his ankle where it penetrated the skin right to the bone.

It takes building a mental block to not kick under water. And helmet, floatation west...armor pretty much:)

The setup weight feels a lot when you carry it all in and out the water. Once floating it feels extremely light. Bulky anyways though.

PHREERIDER - 3-31-2016 at 05:28 PM

no doubt !, cautious on PPE.

recut the front wing tips and add taper th complete knife edge . blasting 9m TT session yesterday ! way to rough frontside for first a foil go .

today was zero, maybe tomorrow,


PHREERIDER - 3-31-2016 at 06:21 PM

and forgot to add, its been in/out of my truck fun box ( w/bed cover)for a week....and the wing with board slide into place, is too tall for rigid cover to close and lock!

so during tip and taper remediation, i clipped 1" of wing span from front wing. so now at 22 1/2" wing span. stock LF is at 21 1/2"

that was a REAL issue on the "session ready" situation it needs to be in to get used...but all phits tidy in fun box now. hopefully sets up tomorrow


Kamikuza - 3-31-2016 at 07:36 PM

I disassemble mine every time, as I've no place to store it and can't really be bothered hauling it around set up. The bag that came with it is about the size of a skinny TT, so no really hardship . . . with practice, it takes about 5 minutes to set up.

The added bonus is that--hopefully--I'll avoid it welding itself back together when I ride the ocean :o

PHREERIDER - 4-1-2016 at 05:56 AM

i see the disassemble route as a way to transfer and have used partially but for me it needs to be ready or i'll just pick up something else ,

use anti-sieze on the bolts and it won't corrude. LF makes a nice set up with the bag.

wing is looking nice, very happy with shape and general finish, i'll try and get some pics, maybe some with it packed in the box with rest of the ready kite junk, anything can be removed without moving the rest, which is what it will take to get it in rotation.

PHREERIDER - 4-1-2016 at 08:28 AM

heres fun box shoot ...

contents:

assembled fish foil
trampa ATB
TT142 misfit SS
6'2" sweet potato(bagged)
GI ATB (uderneath bag)
FS 12m/15m (on top of bag)
8m/12 RPM 9m EXA STAR

in back section another TT, maybe a kite or 2, harnesses, crap ton of wheels/tires/tubes, cables, tools blahblahblah

anyway glad it all fits.



closed for pull out access, with harnei layed in


tip taper, should've gotten forward shot


Flyfish - 4-1-2016 at 09:43 AM

Sick!

PHREERIDER - 4-1-2016 at 03:38 PM

right on man! ready for next project! just wrapped my bike cart carry all , i modded it to also hold (assembled)foil and complete run down of junk. wind has been whack for last couple days lotta moisture half crack fronts, hopefully smooth out.

def ready to bust some foil action and get the intro over with


PHREERIDER - 4-2-2016 at 05:42 PM

super sessioned 12m today and took a ride ! well as best i could .

wow this joker is sensitive ! WAY OVERPOWERED ! to control it i would just submerge it and be snstched out of the straps! after 5 or 6 UP and zoom for 10 ft and be pulled off and over , i started running straight down wind finally gave me some run time mostly all holding it down on water maybe 25 yds. kinda got some pitch contro,l could hold it down but power was really overspeeding me and got jumpy and over i'd go.

as soon as i tried to point upwind foil shoots right at the water that definitely freak me out!. hit the bottom a few times on start . handling the thing was tough . few times with it flat just popped up on top of and maybe 10ft fly over it. just too much kite. overall definitely down for it!

back strap has to go it was killing me ! as soon as i move my back foot in front of strap i think thats gonna help .

i gave it a good 20-30 minute go around 3 hour TT session . less power is in order for sure.

totally stoked on it! by the end of the summer should regular on it .



and retooled bike tow cart for foil accomodations...its going !



Flyfish - 4-2-2016 at 08:18 PM

Let the frustration begin!
Do NOT worry. It sounds like you had quite a typical first outing with your new toy. My first time out was identical. I felt like I had NO idea how to even stand on it. Don't worry, it will happen.

Yes, lose the back strap. No need for it.

Totally correct, overpowered does not work. But, don't error too much on the small side. You want to be correctly powered. If you are under powered you have to wag the kite too much and at this stage all your attention should be at the board not the kite.

Just keep all your weight forward and try to ride with the board flat on the water. Don't worry, you WILL foil.

When you are foiling, and crash, fall way away.

Good luck. It's all normal. It's just harder than it looks.

PHREERIDER - 4-3-2016 at 05:53 AM

gotcha , just have to commit to small kite session with it and NO TT !

i think maybe too much front pressure was a problem , i'd get up, hold the board down, it running submerged til it the bottom.. . just choking out ALL control.

i did learn to shut it down safely and fly off , i was really concerned about it jumping up IN FRONT of me and flip into me. glad i got that element of experience behind me. should be a little more relaxed with it next time and feel out some control for longer runs. thanks for the reassurrance.


Kamikuza - 4-3-2016 at 06:07 AM

Heh. That sounds familiar!

Some tips, if I may.

Don't mix your sessions. If you don't want to dedicate every session for the next wee while to only foiling, then at least just stick to one discipline. Your brain won't cope*.

Water start your body up onto the board, landing on your front foot, standing up tall and straight. Go downwind a little more than you're used to and ride the board flat, rotating around to ride upwind...

First, aim to ride around with the board on the water, keeping it flat. Get used to how that feels and how much more you need to be on your front foot! You'll still rock upwind so don't worry about that...

Once you can ride around comfy, at a constant speed, you've got three options to get onto a foil: ease back onto your rear foot gradually, carve the board upwind (Cabrinha video), or stand still and increase the board speed. I reckon letting the speed get up a little is the easiest to control, in the beginning...

Ride the foil, not the board. You gotta get your head around that so you don't keep trying to edge the board :D

Kite choice is critical, especially at the start. You'll feel over-powered real easy...and once you're up on the foil, the speed will get out of hand even quicker cos you can't use the board to control it.
A good choice would be: kite should be able to sit at the zenith, you should be able to body-drag upwind slowly but you wouldn't waste your time on the TT.

Good constant wind and flat water will make it easier too. Less is more.

Straps...I got both on mine. Keep tripping over them when I change feet--TRY to change feet--but not sure I want to be rid of them...

---------
* At least, mine couldn't. After two or three sessions of foil only, I tried the TT at the end of one and my reactions were phucked up--brain kept screaming that the front foot was going to get pushed into my chin, NOOO! don't weight the back foot NOOO! don't lean on the heel edge . . . you get the picture :D

PHREERIDER - 4-3-2016 at 07:22 AM

gonna go for first dedicated session with small kite in about an hour , definitiely have new stuff in my head.

the stand striaght up thing , i am natural stiffy , and on land board speed passes i'm straight up on front axle , i have that part , just have to work out basic controls to find balance point of foil(not board).

then i will..." ride the foil" , right with you on that!

the upwind tries yesterday just blasted the foil out of the water with slightest weight on back foot. definitely moving back foot forward.

thanks for tips , just gotta slam it out til i get it.


PHREERIDER - 4-3-2016 at 07:29 AM

oh yeah phailed to mention the true essence of phoiling with this custom unit...


its a phusion phoil...


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