Power Kite Forum

General Born-Kite discussion.

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3shot - 7-16-2015 at 05:27 PM

Figured I would start a new thread. For general Born-Kites (Ssayre :thumbup: ), lines, and accessory discussions. Here goes..

Sorry for the loooong delay on this Sean. Here is my "upgraded" bar I told you about a few months ago. I am going to give her a try this weekend at a kite festival. Its more so for the 7m and up sizes. Maybe even the 5.5m. I found the factory bar to be just a little short for the larger Stars. Its functional yes, but at JIBE, I had to work the bar a lot more for the larger 7m. This should help a good bit in the turns, and general control. I'm sure its going to be too much input for the smaller sizes, but should be better for the larger kites. Its a PL 07 bar (I think). Its 6" longer than the HQ bar. I'm curious how it will effect the flight. I changed nothing else. Real easy swap of the hardware. I still have another complete factory bar and line assembly I plan on leaving rigged up for the smaller sizes.




ssayre - 7-16-2015 at 05:53 PM

First of all, I like the idea of a general nasa star discussion thread, although how will I sneak in nasa star discussion on the other threads like I always do :D

That bar looks great and I think will be great on the 5.5 and 7. Nice work, I've been wanting to tinker more with bar modifications but haven't gotten around to it.

3shot - 7-16-2015 at 06:13 PM

Oh... we will still ad lib the Nasa Star propaganda LOL.

soliver - 7-16-2015 at 06:50 PM

I'm GAME!!!... I think we've taken the NS3 review thread that John started as long as possible...

Bar looks good Jason!

3shot - 7-16-2015 at 07:02 PM

Quote: Originally posted by soliver  
I'm GAME!!!... I think we've taken the NS3 review thread that John started as long as possible...

Bar looks good Jason!


Thanks Sean and Spencer. I'll let you know Sunday how it did.

Agree Spencer about John's thread. There was some real good stuff in there about Stars in general, that drifted quite a bit from the review. :embarrased:

markite, I promise you will like this bar a lot better :lol: :lol: :lol:

PHREERIDER - 7-16-2015 at 07:15 PM

nice PL bar, had few of those!

Windstruck - 7-16-2015 at 07:36 PM

Jason - nice bar and nice new thread! I've yet to fly my NS3 8.5M. Based on what you are writing here I'm most curious to see how well it does with the only bar I have for my Born kites which is the one that I bought from Steffen. It of course worked fine for the 4M. Truth be told, I haven't flown the 2.5 either (not enough wind during these warmer summer months) and the 3.2 custom kite I won on XK is on route (it's smaller so should be fine on the standard smaller bar).

Should I feel "underbared" with the 8.5 do you have any retail suggestions for a dedicated larger NS3 bar? You are mentioning the PL 07 bar but that likely wouldn't be readily available. NS3's come in sizes up to 12.5M so I'd think the much larger sizes would be way "underbared" based on what you are saying.

3shot - 7-16-2015 at 08:37 PM

Lol Steve. The factory bar from Steffen is more than capable of getting the job done. Hope I'm not coming across sounding like it isn't. I have the same bars from Steffan that you do. I just feel a huge difference in bar input from the 2.5m vs the 7m. Rightly so. I'm hoping to get the same input "feel" across the board. So a shorter bar for the small kites, and a longer bar for the larger kites. I really had to crank the bar with the 7m. Just felt like a longer bar would help. Pretty sure it will. That PL bar was an extra I had picked up awhile back for just such a mod. Just swapped the hardware from one bar to another. Any longer bar should work. You can rummage the "bay" and find stripped bars all day long. That's all you'd need. Not that I would even suggest it, but a Navigator bar would let you switch from short to long all with one bar. Again, I'm not trying to get the cart ahead of the mule here. Just speculating a longer bar will be a little nicer on the larger kites. I'll know the day after tomorrow. Steffan sells just the bar conversion kits for people that want to use a different bar.

John Holgate - 7-16-2015 at 11:37 PM

My 3 line bar is 21" and my pro depower setup bar is 20". Can't say I've ever felt the need for the kite to turn quicker - even the 10m seems fine on these bars.

One interesting thing I've noticed about the Nasa Stars - when you downloop a foil, you usually get a pretty big rush of power as it picks up speed and heads back through the window as opposed to an uploop. With the Nasa's it doesn't seem to make any difference at all whether you downloop or uploop. I'd almost go as far as to say there's no point at all in downlooping a Nasa Star as you just have to re-loop the kite to uncross the lines (because we can't spin the bars with the trapeze loop).

pssst: there's a new 5 line bar coming for the Long Star...but I don't know anymore than that. Yet.

3shot - 7-17-2015 at 03:49 AM

Any more word on the Ultra Star John? Last I heard from Stefan they were coming out mid 2015.

ssayre - 7-17-2015 at 03:55 AM

Long star will be released in a few days. I'll bet he will turn his attention on ultra star more after the release of long star. I'm an unrepentant star addict. If it ends with Star than I want one sooner or later :D

ssayre - 7-17-2015 at 03:56 AM

Jason, maybe the name of this thread should be general Born-Kite discussion

Windstruck - 7-17-2015 at 04:02 AM

Cool beans about bar length - good discussion! It is possible that I get my 8.5M up in the air later today. Since I only have the stock bar I will soon find out how it feels in relation to the 4M. On the 4 the turns were SUPER fast. Interesting comment John about the apparent lack of increased power in the downlooped turn compared to the uplooped one. I've yet to fly my NS3 quiver from my buggy and look forward to making this comparison myself.

Finally, and I made this mistake only about 50 times before I finally corrected myself, Herr Born's given name is STEFFEN with only E's, not Steffan. :ninja:

3shot - 7-17-2015 at 06:46 AM

Good idea Sean. Lets do a general Born thread!

Like John and many others said, the stock bars work fine. It flies all the sizes. I myself just prefer a little more input on the larger Stars. A few other people said the same thing at JIBE that tried my Stars. I also agree with John that there is no notable differences in power on a down turn vs an upturn.

cheezycheese - 7-17-2015 at 08:20 AM

@3shot - what did you do with the chicken loop, depower and trim strap from the '07 bar..?

soliver - 7-17-2015 at 12:15 PM

@John,... I noticed the same thing about no difference between the down or uploop... I might even say that I noticed that a loop would slow me down.

@Jason,... My 7m is my most flown to date and I don't feel like I have any need for more input on my 7m... its quite responsive IMO... I love how little input it takes actually. There are times when I can take my hands off the bar and just let it be. If it starts to go a direction I don't want I just give the bar a little input and its right back where I want it. ... You guys think there is a difference in this arena between the NS2 and the NS3? I like to fly it static with my ear buds in and a bottle of water in one hand :smilegrin: (only cuz I'm not a beer drinker... if it were cold out. it'd be a coffee).

3shot - 7-17-2015 at 12:29 PM

U2U sent cheezy!

3shot - 7-17-2015 at 02:13 PM

Its just personal preference really Spencer. As with any kite, the bigger the size, the more sluggish it becomes. I must say again, I hope people are not taking by bar project as a complaint! The original 20" bar gets the job done on my whole quiver. I'd just like to speed up the response time a tad on the larger sizes. That's just my personal preference. I haven't flown a NS3, so I don't have a comment on the comparison. The trailing edge is bridled a little different on the 3 correct? I'd have to rummage the web, but I thought the NS3 was improved on responsiveness in general? I know my 2.5, and 4m are crazy responsive. The 5.5 isn't that bad, and the 7 is a bit slower. Just want to test my bar theory. It may be a total bust, But I'll know either way. If nothing else, in the future I can say "hey, I tried that once" lol :D

Tomorrow is a low wind static kite festival. I suspect I can fly the new bar on the 7m first bat. I'll know exactly how it will compare coming off two days of low JIBE wind.

soliver - 7-17-2015 at 03:48 PM

I'm interested to hear what you find Jason!... enjoy the Wright Kite festival... anymore of the VA boys headed out other than you and Riff?

I personally am hoping I can procure a 10m in the fall.. AND hoping the fall winds give me some good sessions,... nothing like this bleh summer poopy lull wind :no:

3shot - 7-17-2015 at 03:59 PM

From VA, I think just me and riff. Chris from HQ will be there for sure. It will actually be a little refreshing to just static fly for a change without stressing over the wind cooperating for the buggy.

John Holgate - 7-17-2015 at 05:24 PM


Quote:

Any more word on the Ultra Star John?


I haven't heard anything. I've been trying to squeeze Steffen for some more info on the Long Stars but he just keeps saying...you will see for yourself :D

ssayre - 7-17-2015 at 06:18 PM

I'll be interested to see if the longer bar will hold up to the additional leverage placed on the d loop attachment points that will try and fold the bar. In a normal depower setting which the bar is designed, there are no such demands placed on the bar. It's probably strong enough but something to keep an eye on.

3shot - 7-17-2015 at 08:10 PM

I can tell you, if the wind is cranking enough to bend a 07 bar in half, I'll be on the sidelines drinking beers watching you guys anyway!!! Lmao

But yes you are correct. The Star setup has the load on the ends of the bar where a normal depower setup, the load is at your chickenloop.

John Holgate - 7-17-2015 at 09:54 PM


Quote:

The Star setup has the load on the ends of the bar where a normal depower setup, the load is at your chickenloop.


That's one of the reasons I like the pro depower bar setup - the load is spread evenly between the bar ends and the chicken loop - no trapeze. The chicken loop has a quick release from the bar instead. Having said that, I'm quite happy using either.

3shot - 7-18-2015 at 02:04 AM

The pro depower bar does look pretty sweet. I will give it to Steffen. He has some great designs. Can't wait to hear about the Long Star John.

3shot - 7-18-2015 at 07:28 PM

OK. So I tried my much anticipated longer bar with the 7m Star at the festival today. In public eye. The verdict is:
:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:
It was pretty cool hearing the broadcaster over the pa system saying "and over in the back field ZIPPING around, we have a Nasa Star power kite."

One hand Nasa Star flying never gets old. Frees up a hand for phone pics LOL.








Doesn't look like much in the pics, but using the 07 bar, the 7 and 5.5m was 100x more responsive in the turns than the 20" bar. I wouldn't go any smaller kites on the long bar. The 2.5, and 4m are already super snappy with the 20" bar. I didn't get to fly the smaller kites. Just the 7 and 5.5m. The wind built up to about 15mph this afternoon. Started out with the 7m earlier of course. The wind picked up to where I was getting drug around pretty good on the 7m. More like snatched around actually. Under the hard loads, I never saw the bar show signs of stress with the load on the bar's ends. I'm sure under harder than normal loads, there is always a chance of bar damage regardless. Met a really cool kite boarded that was in town from Maui. He had never seen a Nasa Star before. He was mesmerized by the depower concept. He asked if he could try it. Well, of course I let him. He put my harness on, gave the 5.5m Star a few tugs back, made a few passes and was like..... :o :o :wow: :wow: "this is badd@$$, I've got to get me one of these!" Of course I gave him all the Born info ;). He really complimented on the longer Peter Lynn bar's effects. All in all, I am pleased with the little experiment. So pleased, that I now have a dedicated 7 &5.5m bar setup, and a 4 &2.5m bar setup. Seeing the 7 turn almost as fast as the 4m was pretty damn cool. I'm happy:D

ssayre - 7-18-2015 at 07:39 PM

I'm sold bro. I definitely need to get a longer bar. I hadn't given it much thought for a long time, but early on I thought the larger ones needed a longer bar. That's an awesome story about the kitesurfer.

Come to think of it. That might be why I don't enjoy longboarding with the larger sizes as well. The longer bar might be the answer for streetkite as well?

Windstruck - 7-18-2015 at 07:44 PM

Jason - it sounds as if you are having a wonderful time at the kite festival. Way to go with your NASA Ambassador duties! Talk about holding the torch high.

I flew my NS3 8.5m for the very first time today and did some nice buggying with it. Winds were around 10-12 knots and it was moving me right along. This was my very first time going mobile with a NS3 and it was pretty cool. The 8.5m wasn't sluggish, but it was one heck of a lot slower turning than the 4m that I flew static a couple of weeks ago. Of course this was on the standard bar.

You know what I think? I think I need me one of those longer bars you've been gushing about. I really do!

Actually, for the very first time having the smaller bar was fine as it was probably a good thing slowing things down a bit. The kite most certainly behaved differently than the Peak2 I've been doing most of my buggying with lately. Not different in a bad way, but these are certainly two very different kites. I look forward to mastering the craft of propulsion with all of my NPWs.

3shot - 7-18-2015 at 07:51 PM

Yeah Sean. "IF" I had money falling out of my arse, I would more than likely buy a stripped large Navigator bar. 55-65cm. Those are so cool to change bar lengths on the fly. My 07bar is 65cm, and the Regular bars are 55cm. A couple days at JIBE this year, we had some funky side shore winds. This meant no 4 mile runs down the beach. This did mean a million 150 yard short side runs. The ocean and dunes come up pretty fast buggying that direction. I think the extra turn speed will be great in close quarters.

Yes Steve. The 55cm production bar that come with our Stars are more than capable of flying all sizes as pointed out by myself and others. I'm not telling everyone to rush out and buy a new bar. If it works well for you now, then keep rockin' it! I just like the extra snap on the larger size NS2 now.

ssayre - 7-18-2015 at 07:59 PM

it's funny, I'm mesmerized by the pictures of the your ns2's. They look great. It's funny because I see them in person all the time and still like seeing pictures. :D

They make for great pictures because the way the light shines through them.

3shot - 7-18-2015 at 08:10 PM

Nasa Stars are friggin' sweet! It really is a unique kite.

I'm in Nasa Star euphoria after 6 hours of playing with them again today.

We need a circle group where we can light a candle and sing a funky chant :lol:. Maybe we could get abkayak to join? ;)

ssayre - 7-18-2015 at 08:11 PM

:lol::lol::lol:

Join us abkayak:bigok:

soliver - 7-18-2015 at 08:42 PM

YES... we must convert more!... there must be MORE followers,

:alien::alien::alien:

Windstruck - 7-19-2015 at 05:00 PM

A funny thing has happened in the past couple of days when I've tried to use my 8.5m NS3 for buggy propulsion. Borderline too little wind. Everything is going fine until the kite decides to fly BACKWARDS. I think it is when I get ahead of the kite with the buggy but I'm not sure. Also, sometimes it does this downward all the way to the ground. Weird. Never had a kite do that before.

Is this pilot error (my suspicion)? There doesn't really seem to be anything to adjust. Anybody have any thoughts or tips?

3shot - 7-19-2015 at 05:16 PM

Get a 10m Steve. Lol. Be 100% sure you don't have any tension on the depower line. This will promote backstall in lower winds. I've also seen backstall if I'm not edging upwind just right while the kite is at the edge of the window. They are most happy sitting deep in the window. At least my NASA Star 2s are anyway.

Windstruck - 7-19-2015 at 06:42 PM

You make a good point Jason about the tension of the center line. I was thinking it may be too tight. The question is going to become how to lengthen it. I may be able to cheat an inch or so from the loops that are down by the bar. Honestly, I like the chicken loop but don't really see the big need to the quick release safety line clip in. I may be able to reduce that to buy some more center line length. Another idea would be to put some knots it the thick part of the brake lines down near the bar, effectively making the center line longer by relation. I'll play with it.

Now, about that 10m NS3.... First things first, I would need a longer bar. I do have a WANTED posting for a used Navigator bar. No bites so far, but it is only the first day of that posting.

I do think my next Star will be a 7m Long Star. It looked sweet! I loved the clip system with its color coding. With the fabled Ultra Star haunting in the wings I think I will hold off on an even bigger NS3 in case Steffen delivers this fall with a large Ultra that I just NEED to have. :D

soliver - 7-19-2015 at 07:24 PM

Jason's right, there should only be tension on the center line when you pull the yellow ball or let the bar out to depow the kite... My 7m does the backward motion bit too sometimes... I always just chalked it up to it being something that all Nasas and NPW's do... I may shorten my power leaders a bit (move the knot back an inch or so) to add some length to my center line...

My next NS3 is hopefully a 10m... maybe this fall.

ssayre - 7-19-2015 at 07:54 PM

Back stall only happens in ultralight wind when kite is not in motion. The can be corrected by piloting to a degree. Generally if wind is that inconsistent or light then motion is hampered causing me to call it quits anyway. The 8.5 is big enough that you might need to extend the center line a touch to ensure there is not tension.

Windstruck - 7-19-2015 at 08:17 PM

Thanks Spencer, Sean, and of course Jason! I think you all are on the money. I will fiddle with my set up and see if I can tease some more length out of the control line.I've got a feeling that the 8.5m and up kites are not completely accounted for in the Born-Kite system. I notice in Steffen's video library that he states that a single bar works for the entire NS3 line up, but then puts up to 7.0m in parentheses or something like that.

Sean, if I called it quits every time the wind died down I'd never get any kiting in! :P Just the nature of my "janky" winds I guess.


3shot - 7-19-2015 at 08:19 PM

Steve, with your 8.5, is your kite's larkshead knot already at the end of the Bar's center line? There should be different preset knots for different sized kites. The the smaller the kite, the closer the knot gets to the bar. And visa versa for the larger kites. You should also adjust the cam cleat for each size kite. If set too far out, your Star can go inside out making relaunch a tangled mess. You want the cleat just far enough out that when you let the bar go, the the nose fully collapses to about the trailing edge. Any more, and the kite will turn inside out. I like to use different colored sharpies on my center line. A mark for each sized kite so I know where to set the cleat.

Windstruck - 7-19-2015 at 08:26 PM

It seems as if I may be the only soul out there with a Born-Kite over 7m. I've seen plenty of aspirational thinking around the fabled 10m NS3 but has anybody actually gotten one? How about the Big Kahuna, the 12.5m? I know when I ordered my 8.5m from Steffen that it was a special order of sorts that I believe got built in Hungary or someplace, but not at his main facility. I suspect the 8.0, 10.0, and 12.5 are all going to be special orders. I'm also wondering if the center line issue I seem to be experiencing (viz., it being perhaps too short) is only going to get worse as the sizes get bigger. I would certainly think that the single smaller diameter bar is going to become progressively too small as the NS3 size goes up.

I'm tempted to purchase a 10m NS3 but am a little leary. I certainly want to secure a 65cm bar before pulling that particular trigger. Also, we now know that the Long Stars are only going up to 7m (at least initially), but what of the fabled Ultra Star? I'm going to email Steffen and ask him if the Ultra Star is slated to come in these larger sizes. His answer to that question may lead me to buy a 10m one sooner than later. I'm also going to ask him about the center line length and bar width issues for his larger NS3s. If I learn anything relevant for this devoted NASA following I will post it.

3shot - 7-19-2015 at 08:31 PM

John Holgate had a custom 10m NASA Star 2 made a year or so ago. He made no mention of centerline length issues. The easiest thing I would do is to add a pigtail section to the end of the bar's centerline if you think it may indeed be too short. You want just a little bit of slack on the depower line. Too much, and it can get wraped around the power lines in tight turns.

With any quiver of any brand kite, the smaller sizes will always be more nimble than the larger ones. Different bar lengths can compensate for this to an extent. The longer the bar, the faster the kite will turn. But, it will still be a larger kite with large kite characteristics.

Windstruck - 7-19-2015 at 08:36 PM

Jason - my thinking too. I'm going to see first if I can squeeze some more center line length out of the set up around the bar first and then if that is a no-go it's pigtail city. :piggy:

3shot - 7-19-2015 at 09:06 PM

I think Steffen has a great system for his kites. As far as his bars, I think the 21" is a good medium for covering all kite sizes. From what I played with this weekend, I would not want to fly a 2.5 or 4m on a 65cm bar. That would be like over steering a car thats hydroplaning lol. The same goes for a 8.5 or 10m. I would not like a short bar for those. That would be like under steering. The larger sizes (8.5 and up) is just pure speculation based on my experiences with the 2.5 through the 7m. The 5.5 and the 7 just felt better to me on a longer bar. BUT, that is my opinion only (except for that surfer dude from Maui). I now have two bars. A shorty, and a long. That is whats going to work best for me. Doesnt mean its right. Doesnt mean its wrong. Kiting is 100% about feel. No two people are alike. The large Navigator bar was the first thing that popped into my head yesterday after I saw how much better my 7m flew on the longer bar. At 55-65cm you get one bar, ALL size kites.

Your mileage may vary...:thumbup:


ssayre - 7-19-2015 at 09:48 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Windstruck  
Jason - my thinking too. I'm going to see first if I can squeeze some more center line length out of the set up around the bar first and then if that is a no-go it's pigtail city. :piggy:


Pig tail is not completely necessary. You can always tie another knot further in on the leaders on each side. Does the same thing without the need for anything added to the set up and you can quickly change the position of the outside lines when going from your largest size to a smaller size. But, if you get bored, making unnecessary pig tails is fun too. ;)

John Holgate - 7-20-2015 at 12:41 AM


Quote:

John Holgate had a custom 10m NASA Star 2 made a year or so ago. He made no mention of centerline length issues.


My center line has several knots in it and I tend to use the same knots for the 2.5, & 4m. then maybe 2 inches longer for the 5.5/7m and a couple inches longer again for the 10m. I just adjust the knots as I change kites. You'll know if it's too tight as the nose will be just starting to fold. Doesn't seem to matter if it's a bit slack.

I'm not aware of it affecting the back-stalling issue. This is simply what happens when there's not enough air flow over the kite - it's starts to fall and then voila, magically starts flying backwards. Just steer it round in a reverse loop and get it moving again. It's very rarely an issue if your either moving or have a bit of wind, but if you try to hold it at the edge of the window in light wind and you get a small lull, then it can go backwards. I've found it more prone to doing that if you're on really short lines too.

On the coast, I find I need about 5.5 to 6 knots to have enough to park 'n ride with the 10m. The 7m probably needs about 1.5knots more. If you already have the 8.5m, I wouldn't bother with the 10m. Instead, you might try a 30m to 40m lineset for the light winds.....

Also, if you do need an extra inch or two on your center line, what about just tying a knot in your power line leaders either side of the bar and larks heading around them....or replace the center line altogether with one six inches longer with room for a few more knots...

Windstruck - 7-20-2015 at 05:40 AM

I was able to find about two inches of line last night down by the bar. As folks know there are two plastic tubes separated by a rectangular metal ring that the safety carabiner clips into. The one closest to the end of the line was set about two inches from the bar sort of blocked up against where the line gets thicker and more rectangular. I simply stuffed the thicker rectangular section down the tube and voila two more inches! I can see by the pictures from Jason's action shots that his little tube is all the way up next to the control bar (though not in his original picture that started this thread). Time will tell if this little bit of extra length will be enough.

John - I like the idea of different knots up at the kite end of the depower line for the center line larkshead tie in. I have two knots in the end of the depower line now and set the 8.5m to the longer one. More knots would be nice, but of course that means less total depower line length. I may play with knots on the thick power lines down by the bar as suggested for further adjustability. Lots to play with!

Jason - The sharpie suggestion for the cleat is great too - good thinking!

I do like the idea of trying line extensions to eek some more power out of the 8.5m as compared to going up to the 10m (certainly less money involved!). The lines that come with the kites are 20m long. Your 30-40m suggestion has me going up 50-100% on that! I just got a second lineset with the 3.2m (thank you very much John!) that aren't even out of their plastic pouch. As an experiment I could add those on to the existing lines. I better bring a pair of binoculars to see the kite! I buggy on some soccer fields that have some obstacles off the ends of them that I'll have to be wary of. I don't want to bring the kite down into an ongoing softball game if I luff it in a turn! :o

Windstruck - 7-20-2015 at 04:57 PM

I think I posted this before, but I got a great email from Steffen a while back with a suggestion for packing up Star kites. I tried his arm sweep with crouch technique for the first time today and it worked beautifully! :singing:

A little trick, as you can quickly fold the NS3.
1. Remove the bar.
2. Fasten the bridle lines on the transport loops on the kite.
3. Grab the kite at the nose right and left.
4. Stand up to the wind with her back
5. With a quick bow movement hands inwards and the wingtips fold inward.
6. When folding the tips, squat. On the floor then fold.
The more wind, the better it works.

Here is a copy and paste from his email:

Here you can see the procedure.
See minute 2:28 to 2:35
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwIHBPLhFGc

See minute 2:43 to 2:47
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvRc08IvJo0

I did this on the 8.5m NS3. Love it!

Windstruck - 7-20-2015 at 05:02 PM

Fellow Star fans - I "solved" my length issue for the center line this afternoon. I removed the two plastic tubes and the the strap that has the carabiner on it. Trade off for the 8-10 inches of extra center line gained was the loss of the emergency rip cord. Honestly it was getting in the way; it would block my hook in to my Spreader. If I need to bail I'll unhook from the Spreader and hold onto the little yellow ball....

New question - has anybody tried flying a NS3 (or any Star for that matter) without the center line at all? This would involve leaving the yellow DP bridle attached to its little larks head cord on the leading edge. Yes, I know this would disable the "DP" Star feature and its ability to flag out, but I'm just curious. I haven't tried it but I bet it would fly just fine.

ssayre - 7-20-2015 at 05:22 PM

They do fly just fine without the third line

soliver - 7-20-2015 at 05:37 PM

I'm thinking that it kind of would eliminate your "safety" system if you have to pull the QR on the chicken loop you essentially just end up jettisoning the kite, then you have to chase it down.

Steve I used to get really frustrated with the carabiner and other pieces of the third line getting in the way trying to hook in. What I did was to move the clip in velcro apparatus that came with the bar to the right of my spreader bar hook. and when I hook the third line in, I make sure it is run UNDER the chicken loop... That way it sort of helps to keep the chicken loop in place and kinda helps to get it hooked in when its not.

ssayre - 7-20-2015 at 05:45 PM

You guys are funny. :D I don't see how the carabiner or other bits get in the way at all. I'm not saying I don't believe you, but I have personally never had any inconvenience caused by them.

3shot - 7-20-2015 at 05:52 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Windstruck  
Honestly it was getting in the way; it would block my hook in to my Spreader.


I guess everyone has their 3rd line attachment strap above the hook? I also fold it back out of the way when flying a different kite. I fold it back behind the bar between the spreader pad.



I've never had a problem with the 3rd line hardware getting in the way either. Its always above my hook. I hook in an out with no obstructions because the 3rd line stays above the hook. :dunno:

ssayre - 7-20-2015 at 05:59 PM

I agree Jason. It doesn't get in the way of anything including when I use the peak or fb kite on handles and strop. It justs sits on top not bothering anybody. :D

Maybe they are hooking in then trying to attach the biner. You want to attach the biner first then hook in.

3shot - 7-20-2015 at 06:15 PM

Yes Sean. I usually take a knee, attach the depower line (above the hook), stand back up, then launch the Star. Once up in the air, I pull the bar down to my waist and hook in. The 3rd line stuff always stays out of my way. At least to date anyway. Then, depending on the wind speed, I may pull the yellow ball just a bit until I get situated in the buggy.

At the end of a run, I let the Star pull my a$$ up out of the seat, cause I'm lazy like that :Ange09:

3shot - 7-20-2015 at 06:29 PM

Another represent shot. Riff sent me this one. I'm in the left background with the unmistakable bat profile :evil:


Windstruck - 7-20-2015 at 07:03 PM

Jason - that is a sweet little hook in spot! I don't have one like that on my spreader but I sure do see how it could be useful. I have a PL Devine harness. With longer leashes I hook into the metal rings at either end of the spreader bar, but with a short line setup like on the Star bar I end up clipping into the spreader hook itself which is why I get messed up. Your picture is excellent and the strap with the hook in metal rectangle looks to be a simple piece of stout webbing in a larkshead knot over the spreader bar. I'm suspecting it came with your particular brand of harness. Is that right or was this aftermarket?

ssayre - 7-20-2015 at 07:22 PM

Negative Steve. That should have come with your born kite bar.

ssayre - 7-20-2015 at 07:23 PM

I have the exact same thing as Jason and it came from born with the bar

3shot - 7-20-2015 at 07:23 PM

Steve. I have a standard PL spreader bar. That little ring strap is what came with both my bars from Steffen. Its made specifically for the 3rd line. Did you not get this piece??

Windstruck - 7-20-2015 at 07:40 PM

Ahh - did get it and didn't install it. Thanks everybody!

3shot - 7-20-2015 at 07:55 PM

So. Here is my other spreader assembly. Its primarily for my stroped fixed bridle kites. I really wanted to try it out with my Stars at JIBE this year, but didn't get a chance.


ssayre - 7-20-2015 at 08:23 PM

Excellent thread. A good one stop shop for questions and answers regarding various set ups and questions

John Holgate - 7-20-2015 at 09:25 PM

Hah! I've never seen the extra doohicky for the spreader bar. I just clip the little 'biner to the hook and then hook the trapeze in.


Quote:

has anybody tried flying a NS3 (or any Star for that matter) without the center line at all?


Works fine on handles with and without the Z bridle but no center line. And the other way I've tried it that was really good - use Z bridles and run power lines and brake lines to the ends of the bar (yep, both of 'em with trapeze in usual spot) Hook a safety leash to the brake strap between the two brake lines.

So if you pull the release on the trapeze loop, the safety leash pulls the brakes and all is good. Or if you want to back it down or reverse launch, just pull the brake strap.

In the end I thought the 3 line bar was simpler and just as effective so I stuck with it. But you may have seen this vid with the above bar description. (also tried Turbo Bar a couple of times but the NS2 didn't like being steered by brakes alone)


Windstruck - 7-20-2015 at 10:04 PM

Alright my fellow NASA fans, I just attached my little clip-in strap that came with my Born bar as so beautifully shown in Jason's photo and replaced the release hardware to the back end of my center line that I had removed earlier today. For good measure I added knots to the outside thick lines coming off the bar ends about three inches below the terminal knots and attached my outside lines to those shorter positions effectively building some slack back in my center line. Sean, I totally see what you mean about clipping in the center line carabiner ABOVE the spreader hook so nothing gets in the way of hooking in the chickenloop - totally makes sense.

I'm back in the saddle! :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

3shot - 7-21-2015 at 03:55 AM

I've always loved that video John!!
One things for sure, they are such a versatile kite. Not complicating things Steve, but that other spreader is my Auto Quick Release. You'd attach your third line as normal. Then put your chicken loop in the snatch block and snap it shut. The two lower rings then gets hooked to my buggy's teather strap under my seat. So, in the event I have an obe, I'm lifted up out of the seat about 4" and the teather draws tight, pulling the snap shackle open releasing the snatch block. Once you are hooked in though, you are in. No unhooking on the fly. Unless you manually reach down and pop the shackle. The swivel should also give a little bit more range of motion with my bar too. Wish I would have got to use it at JIBE for those big power slides...
Glad you got your third line back together Steve!

soliver - 7-21-2015 at 04:51 AM

Here's how I did mine... I initially had it inside the hook like you Jason, but with the little cross member in my hook (bought second hand and NOT of PL manufacture) it had a tendency to get in the way, so I got frustrated with it and moved it to the side. This has worked fairly well, however a little in the way at times.



However seeing and hearing you talking about clipping it ABOVE the hook, I may try it again in this way. ...BUT... I'm afraid the little cross bar might still get in the way. I'm going to try your way and see if that makes a difference for me.

That little cross bar had really been a pain at times as there have been instances that really weird stuff has happened. Once the carabinieri got clipped onto that bar and then somehow, the chicken look clipped itself onto the carabiner and was stuck there... it was weird... I used to clip the carabiner TO that little bar and then it REALLY got in the way!... Do you guys think it would effect the integrity of the hook if if cut that little cross bar out?

Thanks guys!

ssayre - 7-21-2015 at 05:02 AM

I bet it would work fine being cut off. You might even be able to tape the opening closed from bar to cross piece to close the void if that's what causes the problem. My set up is identical Jason's first picture which is in accordance to instructions.

soliver - 7-21-2015 at 05:03 AM

Loving this thread guys!

I'll see what happens with jut clipping it OVER the loop first before taking the angle grinder to it :o

3shot - 7-21-2015 at 05:04 AM

Spencer. IMHO I'd think you'd be fine removing that little cross bar. You won't be putting huge demands on the bar like kite boarding or anything (unless you are feelin' gangsta again). I'd remove it nice a smooth, and polish it up very well with a Dremmel. Again, IMHO.

soliver - 7-21-2015 at 05:07 AM

Yeah, I'm fully equipped to clean it up... I'll give it a try without cutting it first and see what happens.

Yea, I'm deffo wanting to keep my feet on the ground so I won't be gettin' gangsta for ... well forever :smilegrin:

3shot - 7-21-2015 at 05:07 AM

For the record, when i first got my Stars, I had to call our resident Holgate (Sean), to figure out how that little dang piece attached! Lol the instructions were not that clear, and I can't read German. Lol

ssayre - 7-21-2015 at 05:10 AM

:)

It took me a minute to sort stuff out. I have to figure out a way to get the longstar so I can keep my title as the resident Holgate.

soliver - 7-21-2015 at 05:11 AM

That's what google translator is for! LOL

Windstruck - 7-21-2015 at 06:38 AM

Well gentleman, I just fished the Star instruction pages that came with the kites out of the garbage (literately) and what did I find? Pictorial directions for attaching the "O-Ring fur Trapez". Who'd ah thunk it? :crazy:

I had two of these little o-rings (the second coming with the 3.2m - yipee!) and late last night I put one in the center of my PL standard spreaderbar just as in Jason's original photo and the second just to the left of the center mechanism of my PL prodigy spreader. I was delighted to see this morning that I had independently set up my prodigy spreaderbar exactly as Spencer showed in his photo. You guys are rubbing off on me, and that's a good thing! :thumbup:

About that prodigy spreaderbar - I love it's design, but it was expensive, and the way my quiver is evolving I'm just not getting any use of it. I like flying kites off of handles with a strop, but at least for me, the kites I want to expand into seem to be more DP, Single Skin, Stars, etc, all of which get flown off of bars. I still have my 4m Hornet and 4.5m Uniq. I'm hopeful for enough wind one of these months to put the Hornet up in the air for buggying, but I'm in the same boat as everybody else with our Summer being more breezy than windy. IMHO the Uniq is an inferior buggy engine to other kites in my quiver and I don't anticipate using it again for that purpose.

3shot - 7-21-2015 at 06:59 AM

Long Star AND Ultra Star Sean! ;)

ssayre - 7-21-2015 at 07:23 AM

True dat

soliver - 7-21-2015 at 07:27 AM

err, uh... Steve.. get rid of that Prodigy bar dude... If you aren't going to be using FB stuff that often, it's better not to strop in, especially in inland wind with a pulley style bar (eps. as opposed to a auto QR set up)... If you REALLY want to use the strop, you can do so with your hook spreader too and save yourself having to change out the spreader bar... I'm not a fan of that spreader anyway.

I may have the chance to try out the change in location of the little linky doo dad today... with the cr@p summer wind I'm out of the habit of checking the forecast... just looked out the window, checked WindAlert and BANG... I know what I'm doing on lunch!!!!

Windstruck - 7-21-2015 at 07:58 AM

@ John Holgate - In some email back and forth with Steffen these past days he mentioned that you are shortly getting a complete line of Long Stars to compare with the NS3s. Awesome! :thumbup:

I'm sure you are going to be doing all sorts of great comparisons. We look forward to your impressions! I'm thinking of filling in the middle gap of my Star quiver with the 7m Long Star. Since the NS3 line also has a 7m in its line I suspect you could do a nice direct head to head. I'd be most interested to learn about which has a harder pull, how do they sit in the wind window for buggying, upwind performance, wind range, etc. Enquirering minds want to know! :D

soliver - 7-21-2015 at 11:59 AM

I tried out the reconfigured doo dad at lunch and it was better, I DO think I'll benefit from cutting off that cross member.

Windstruck - 7-21-2015 at 12:59 PM

Stoked! I just got over (dare I say it in this esteemed crowd?) eBay a bar-only adjustable width control bar for covering the different NS3s in my quiver.

image.jpg - 7kB

As you can see from the picture the adjustment is pretty simple, just move the outer lines in or out knotting them beyond 4 different holes on each side. The bar I got adjusts outer line width from 45-60 cm by 5 cm increments. I believe the standard Born three line bar is 50 cm. Though not shown there was a second photo showing a nice smooth tapered metal hole in the bar center. It looks to be of good quality.

Here is what I'm thinking: 45cm width for my 2.5m, 50cm for my 3.2 and 4.0m, 55cm for a 5.5 and 7.0m (I don't have those), and 60cm for my 8.5m or larger Stars.

I don't have it yet of course. I'll post pictures and flight impressions in a couple of weeks.
:wee:

ssayre - 7-21-2015 at 01:09 PM

Looks good Steve.

Spencer, if you wiggle your doodad more than twice, your playing with it.

Windstruck - 7-21-2015 at 01:15 PM

My thoughts exactly. Spencer, that piece of, err, equipment has a Velcro closure and should require no, err, adjustment. :moon:

Windstruck - 7-21-2015 at 01:18 PM

Oh, and Spencer, you might want to check with the Mrs before cutting off any members. :o

soliver - 7-21-2015 at 02:52 PM

Hey now,... you guys don't need to be crackin' jokes about my bar like that... have I told you that my bar is a longer than a PL Standard :smilegrin: ???

The hook is bigger too...

Oh jeez... I see this going south... oh my

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

Windstruck - 7-21-2015 at 03:01 PM


Quote:

have I told you that my bar is a little longer than a PL Standard :smilegrin:


All the more reason to check with the Mrs before doing something drastic. Who knows, she may still have occasional use for it. :tumble:

John Holgate - 7-21-2015 at 03:35 PM


Quote:

he mentioned that you are shortly getting a complete line of Long Stars to compare with the NS3s.


I've only got the 3.2m in the NS3, (the twin brother of yours :D) the rest of mine are NS2's - having said that, the two models are extremely similar in performance with the NS3 just feeling a little more refined...

Plenty of reviews and comparo's to come.

Windstruck - 7-21-2015 at 03:43 PM

Most excellent John! We wait with baited breath. Excellent to know my little 3.2 has an older brother on the other side of the world. ;)

soliver - 7-21-2015 at 03:46 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Windstruck  

Quote:

have I told you that my bar is a little longer than a PL Standard :smilegrin:


All the more reason to check with the Mrs before doing something drastic. Who knows, she may still have occasional use for it. :tumble:




Only youtube version of this clip I could find... forgive the quality

Windstruck - 7-21-2015 at 03:54 PM

Gotta love Mel Brooks! Good comeback.

Windstruck - 7-21-2015 at 03:57 PM

Hey! Back to our regularly scheduled program. I've read in many threads in recent months about the "Z-Bridle" for flying various DPs and Stars off of handles. Can somebody kindly help a brother out? Is there a good historical thread somebody could point me to? If not, a simple explanation? Double secret bonus points for pictures or drawings! Thanks in advance! :thumbup:

I want an excuse to fly on handles.

ssayre - 7-21-2015 at 04:31 PM

Z Bridle

There's the link to the z bridle thread for NPW's. I'm not aware of putting a z bridle on a depower, but you can fly your peak with handles using any length of lines without a Z bridle. I had to make sure I had the right amount of brake tension so it's responsive.

3shot - 7-21-2015 at 04:37 PM

woohoo. Page 4 of Born awesomeness!!!

Glad you got a flight in today Spencer.

That's a cool looking bar design Steve. Never seen one like that before. Wonder what's on the inside of that one? Looking forward to your thoughts on different bar length settings as well. :thumbup:

Just put the right knot at the bar ends. something easy to untie, yet stay in place. Like a figure 8 knot, etc.

ssayre - 7-21-2015 at 06:47 PM

Quote: Originally posted by 3shot  
woohoo. Page 4 of Born awesomeness!!!



Pretty impressive considering we have filled page after page on other threads about them. Of course these are exciting times in the USA branch of the born kite pilots and new stuff coming out.

Windstruck - 7-21-2015 at 06:55 PM

We are on the same page Jason regarding knots for the bar ends. I had already given this some thought and was considering tying a triple overhand knot. Nice and bulky but easy to "break".



Master plan: taking the best suggestions from my fellow Star devoties (you know who you are!). I thought I'd use color-coded sharpies to mark out the positioning of the little slider and a series of knots at the top of the center line for attaching the center bridle. If upon experimentation it turns out that I want a progressively longer center line as kites get bigger then I may color-code the knots too.

Color code the bar end holes you ask? Now that would just be obsessive. :lol:

3shot - 7-21-2015 at 07:10 PM

Color code the holes I think would surpass my level of OCD.

soliver - 7-21-2015 at 07:46 PM

I've set my posts per page at 80 so still only page 2 for me :D

I think the Z bridle is only for Nasas, I don't think there is any derivative for a depower as the design of the Z bridle is intended to allow extra pressure to be applied to the TE of the kite at the pilots request (applying brake pressure) otherwise there is equal pressure across all the bridling. Its not an on the fly adjustment like depow.... at least thats the best explanation I can give it.

I really like that triple overhand knot... that's pretty slick.

Windstruck - 7-21-2015 at 08:07 PM

I took a look at the Z-bridle thread. Cool stuff, but over my head in terms of what I'm willing to do. Thanks for the heads up to the link nonetheless!

In the mighty world of knot tying and related nautical lore, IMHO there is no better source text than the Ashley Book of Knots. This tomb was originally published in the 1940s and has strikingly beautiful illustrations bringing you back to the age of the mighty Clipper Ships.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ashley_Book_of_Knots

My dad and I used to go through it together when I was a kid. He would give me assignments and I would study the book and learn all sorts of new knots, understand when and why they are used, and even the history of different knots. Those were fun times for us lying on our living room rug challenging each other to tie different knots and stuff like that. My favorite was the bowline with double loop:



I figure a group of kite enthusiasts like ourselves would appreciate this, even if it is a tad off the Born-Kite theme.

220px-ABOK-Cover.jpg - 25kB

3shot - 7-22-2015 at 01:55 PM

Borrowed Big E's pics. Just to throw it in this thread :D

Really looking forward to this one :evil:

Quote: Originally posted by bigE123  




Windstruck - 7-22-2015 at 02:09 PM

Jason - thanks for posting those pics! Ultra star fever. I didn't bother to try and decifer the German but from the pics the Ultra Star has me thinking Peak2. Not that there is anything wrong with that; my 12m P2 is my favorite kite in my quiver.

I will be most interested to see how these Ultra Stars stack up lift/grunt wise with the other Stars in Steffen's lineup. Speaking only for myself, I still want to fill in my single skin quiver to bridge the gap between my 4m NS3 and 7m Long Star (on order as of this morning!). I'm holding out for an Ultra Star!!! 5.5m?????

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