pkf
Posts: 334
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FISLY Rules
Some time ago a discussion was started regarding the use of FISLY rules at buggy events. That threat was deleted due to flaming and self editing by
the contributors. The topic comes up from time to time so we have setup this forum for the purpose of continuing this discussion in a tightly
controlled environment.
RULES: To participate in the discussion you must:
1. Keep comments focused on the topic - not about other contributors.
2. Post constructive comments aimed at advancing the sport - not to drive a personal agenda.
3. Be courteous to contributors and readers.
4. Send personal comments via U2U.
5. Be mindful of the extra time out of line comments require of our volunteer moderators.
If these rules are not respected, this thread will be closed and future related threads disallowed.
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bison
Posts: 196
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Reposted per Bob instructions.
| Quote: | Originally posted by geokite
I could be convinced to supporting fisly rules, but convinced is the key word. I see problems with it, but am open to an intelligent discussion of how
they can be used/abused. Honest. |
Alright Steve, I'll take on the challenge.
Here's a new thread, as we have hijacked the last one quite enough.
Ask your questions. I'll do my best to answer them. Honest.
[WARNING: if anyone plans to hijack this thread with insults, name calling, or generally cause havoc, I will be forced to have Bob take care of you
remotely from his command bunker overseas! Yep, you will have no idea it's coming, then it will be TOO late!   ]
| Quote: | Originally post by Sunset Jim
I myself look forward to seeing a good discussion on this topic without any personal attacks or any other garbage that will otherwise render it
useless.
I have yet to actually be in an organized race and can't say one way or the other on why one is better than the other. One thing that I do understand
is that when the organizing body of NAPKRA formed, it was to be able to provide a means to compete in the global arena. So it made it most logical to
use the same rules that the other major events around the world are using. Makes sense to me anyway. It would be a great disadvantage to race one way
and then when up against the big dogs, learn an entirely different set of rules.
The only other thing I would like to say before "the flag drops and we are off to the races" on this topic is I couldn't agree more with what Kent has
stated. Let everybody and anybody run whatever rules they want to use. I'm sure there is something to gain by ANY kind of race, get together or
doodle(can be whatever you want it to be) that is held. As long as it's held in friendship and good sportsmanship. |
Buggy Bison
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USA_Eli_A
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I don't know where the discussion will go. Correct me if I'm wrong. As detailed as the rules are! I believe their purpose is to guide
Buggy/ParaKart racing in a safe and fair way.
Bison, Jellis, Sunset-Jim, many others and I have been studying them for a while just to keep in mind safe tactics while on course with each other.
The 'self-preservation' attitude, as general as it is, helps protect our flying sites, and set a standard in OUR country regarding Safe, Fair, and fun
Buggy guidelines. And in OUR attempt to co-exist with the Euro Race scene WE WILL PRACTICE, PREACH, AND TEACH these valuable skills. And those the
CHOOSE to participate will enjoy themselves and each other at many many races will win (figuratively) in the long run.
I have some race experience under Fisly race rules, and I see their relevancy. I believe there will likely be incidences that can be prevented if the
rules aren't taught and practiced on the race course.
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Taper123
Posts: 768
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Location: Texas
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I've participated in several buggy races, and the need to have a standard set of guidelines and rules is necessary to try and keep everyone safe.
Kite related accidents and public perception are what can lead to bans on their usage.
It is my understanding that the FISLY rules are what the NAPKRA uses (or is the basis for the class 8 racing rules). The handful of races I have been
in have gone off smoothly for the most part. Only thing we have done different is tone down some of the competitiveness in some areas. For
instance, if a kite is down, all racers must avoid their lines or come to a stop. It is better to restart a race than risk an injury. If a race was
for big money or prizes then it might be different... after all, most of us race for fun.
Keep it safe... and look forward to seeing how this thread goes.
What do you do with your foils?
Charger 8, 12, 19
Scorpion 10, 16
And other foils...
Flexifoil Bug, CrazyFly board, MBS atb
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archkiter
Posts: 359
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I have never raced. Can someone point out the Major differences between the FISLY rules and other rules?
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bison
Posts: 196
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| Quote: | Originally posted by archkiter
I have never raced. Can someone point out the Major differences between the FISLY rules and other rules? |
NAPKRA rules based on FISLY
http://www.napkra.org/pdfs/NAPKRA%20Guide.pdf
Argyle Park rules
http://www.kites.tug.com/kites/Bb+p/rules.txt
(FYI: This link is quite dated, umm '93 I think. Peter refers to rules I have never even seen. Not sure which set they came from. Anyway, the FISLY
rules are quite different today than they were in '93. Does anyone know of a more recent version?)
Buggy Bison
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Ozzy
Posts: 116
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I think in underneath link, covers it all:
http://www.fisly.org/
If I read the Argyle Park rules, it is more rules like common sence en a bit of a gentlemens agreement, ,... If you want to cover it international,
you need Fisly, but like more people said before, it is all your choice to participate..
Have fun , good winds.
Ozzy
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bison
Posts: 196
Registered: 3-22-2005
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Right-Of-Way and more.
| Quote: | | FYI, I'll be using the quote tags in blue for excerpts from other published works and comments
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| Quote: | For those of you that are interested in the New European Class 8 Rules as described on the PKA web site, I have a guide
that might help you understand them a little clearer. These are not the rules but an interpretation of what they mean. If anyone would like a .pdf
file of these contact me and I will mail you one.
THE IDIOTS GUIDE TO CLASS 8 RULES.
By James Bromley.(PKA Treasurer)
These are not the official rules bla bla bla, disclaimer, bla bla bla, but are a good interpretation for those learning how to race. I hope you find
them useful anyway. |
I like to give credit where credit is due. James has written an excellent and practical summary of FISLY rules. I will be referring heavily to these
types of publications and drawing on my own experiences from racing in Denmark.
This link will take you to the original post.
| Quote: | Buggy Priority: Collisions hurt, so learn basic rules of the road:
Basically you must guard the front and the right side of your buggy. If you are on a head-on collision course turn right and the other pilot should do
the same. In all other situations, watch for pilots coming from your right and avoid them. Pilots coming from your left will avoid you, so don't
confuse them by changing course. You may overtake on the right or left but it is your responsibility to avoid a collision with the overtaken
pilot. |
I couldn't of written this any better. Concise and to the point. "RIGHT-OF-WAY" IS NOT just one rule but the combination of several rules to create a
framework for buggy pilots to avoid impeding each other. When everyone is on the same page, this works fantastic. While in Denmark in '99, all the
races had 40 - 50 racers. I saw VERY few tangles and never once had a situation that was even close or was forced to alter course to avoid a
collision.
| Quote: | Buggy Priority Notes:
Wind direction makes no difference to these rules. For old-timers: The starboard rule no longer applies, but as a matter of interest if both pilots
are beating (going upwind, a common situation), the new 'guard your right' rule is exactly the same. There is a grey area between overtaking and
converging. I guess you are overtaking if you are going faster and your angle of approach is more from behind than from the right. Use your common
sense and be careful if it looks borderline. In some situations you must make a conscious effort to look right because it isn't natural; for example
when the wind is coming from your right. |
In '99 I raced under the starboard rule, I welcome this change, much easier on the racer. "GUARD YOUR RIGHT" is a one step decision. The old way took
two steps: 1. What's the wind direction? 2. Now, do I have right-of-way or do they? The "...grey area..." causes a lot of confusion, but is much
less so when actually racing. Trust me, been there.
| Quote: | Kite Height:
These rules are really just common sense. If you don't follow them your kite will get tangled. The kite height rule is nothing to do with buggy
priority; you must never use your kite to block anyone. Kite height rules apply whenever you are close enough to tangle with another kite. The upwind
buggy must fly high and the downwind buggy must fly low. It is the responsibility of both pilots to comply. In the event of a tangle the pilot who's
kite was at an unreasonable height is at fault. If you can't control your kite properly, you shouldn't be flying it. |
If you can't control your kite properly, you shouldn't be flying it. - Yeah this is harsh, but in racing it about safety. Period!
| Quote: | Opposing:
Things happen quickly as bunches of buggies are opposing at a closing speed of 60mph (a situation that often arises during slalom races). First pick a
gap on the ground for your buggy using the priority rules. It's often a good idea to look behind you. If the rest of your bunch is going for a
different gap, will the 'weave' work? Having picked a buggy gap, look for the corresponding kite gap and get your kite to the right altitude to slot
it through. |
James makes a excellent point about finding the gap, etc... Personally, I feel that course layout is a much better way of addressing this specific
issue. When setting up an Enduro course there is usually 200 ft between opposing paths. Plenty of room even if a racer has problems and needs to use
the inner section.
| Quote: | Overtaking:
You must raise and lower whether you are overtaking or being overtaken. |
I try to yell "PASSING ON YOUR {RIGHT or LEFT}" Situational awareness is very important here. Gonna have to look over your shoulder once and a while.
Just part of being aware of your surroundings!
| Quote: | At The Marks:
If there's a line of people jibing (Turning) a mark, the leaders will be downwind of the followers after the mark. Therefore kites must come in high
and go out low. Down turns are often most effective. |
Basically, make the same maneuver as the racer in front of you did. Think, follow the leader. Now, I do have a problem with this rule, but that is a
post all in it's own. Too much to get into today.
Well, thats all for now, I'll cover a different section at a later date.
Bison
Buggy Bison
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geokite
Posts: 483
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Well, let's get started.
The following was written by Dave367 back during the Challenge2008 thread that was locked, then deleted. While I did not write the following, it is a
good example of some informative questions that I have. I certainly hope that it will be answered even though I didn't write it. I could rewrite it
in my own words, but that would be a waste of time. It never, to my knowledge, got answered in a point by point manner back then.
Portions of his post was left off, for it is out of context in this new thread, or I felt like keeping this first post more focused.
The question that he references me for is a visibaility issue; having to look over my windward shoulder going one way, and my downwind shoulder the
other way, doesn't seem very safe.
| Quote: | Originally posted by Dave367
The IFSLY rule stating that an "overtaking maneuver" comes into effect when the buggies are 2 meters apart is a good example. In sailing, "one
boatlength" is not an uncommon distance for rules to come into effect. Two boats may sail this close together for many miles without mishap, and even
when converging, a boatlength might take 2-10 seconds to cross, due to sail boats' slow speed and relatively large size. "Transposing" such a distance
into kite buggying is silly; if a guy is 2 meters from you he is literally "in your pocket," and something should have been done long ago. At buggy
closing speeds of 60+ mph, 2 meters will be traversed in less than a tenth of a second, an interval that's silly even to contemplate. Even an obtuse
convergence (one buggy coming down on another and--maybe--overtaking) will yield closing speeds of up to 10 to 20 mph, giving more like one quarter to
one half of a second to react--still a ridiculous concept.
The "buggy on right has right-of-way unless overtaking, when buggy on right MIGHT have right-of-way or buggy on left MIGHT have right-of-way, and this
right-of-way is wholly dependent on the relative buggy speeds, which may or may not be changing as we try to interpret this" is another good example
(as were the multiple, unsuccessful attempts to "clarify" this common event right here on this forum last week. If we can't suss out a simple mark
approach over several days and half a dozen posts, how are two buggiers going to cope, in the few seconds available to them?)
Similarly difficult is the "two buggies when meeting will move to the right, unless one or the other willfully--or accidently--gums it up by changing
course, in which case much shouting will ensue and the race will be decided later in a smoke-filled room" rule.
Both of these rules are taken from landsailling, where they have some validity. The major difference is that landsailors are symmetric--their sails
are on their centerlines, and there is no greater difficulty in looking either to the right or to the left. Speeds are generally higher than buggy
speeds, and both yacht course and speeds are more constant; thus speed-dependent and course-keeping dependent rules can be used with some success.
Buggying is fundamentally different; a buggier has 80% of his concentration focused downwind, where his kite is. His speed and his course are fairly
widely variable, as he seeks wind and follows his kite. He can neither see well, nor accurately judge the position or especially the speed of, buggies
upwind of him. OTOH, he can very accurately see, judge distance from and judge the speed of buggies which are downwind of him.
Regarding Steve's question, I believe I understand his concern. Please refer to the sketch at: http://www.dcss.org/ifsly-converge.gif Buggy B is about to cross Buggy A, or perhaps converge onto him. He may or may not be overtaking him. It is
obvious, per IFSLY rule Article 5, Annex 07B, that Buggy B has right of way, unless he is traveling faster than Buggy A, thus "overtaking," in which
case, per IFSLY Article 6, Annex 07C & 07D, Buggy A has right of way. Now, Buggy B has had a clear view of Buggy A for a fairly long period of
time as he has approached, thus has near-perfect knowledge of Buggy A's speed, course and even buggying skill. Buggy A, OTOH, has been buggying
naively along, potentially without knowing even the existence of Buggy B, let alone his course or his relative speed.
Now, IFSLY rule Article 6(1), Annex 07C & 07D states that Buggy B needn't even warn Buggy A of his existence until they're 2 meters apart, but
let's presume we're all playing fair here, and Buggy A (somehow) knows of the existence of Buggy B. Buggy A must continually look over his shoulder
just in case Buggy B exists (I thought John Ellis had paraphrased IFSLY rules as "guard your front and right side." Silly me, I didn't understand he
meant my right side *all the way around to directly behind me*, yet IFSLY rules are quite adamant about this)
Now, not only does Buggy A need to repeatedly crane his neck to keep track of Buggy B's course and intent, he is *required* by IFSLY Article 6, Annex
07C & 07D, to accurately gauge Buggy B's speed--to within a fraction of one mile per hour--relative to his own in order to determine if an
"overtaking" is occurring. If Buggy B speeds up, he loses right of way to Buggy A, if he slows down, he gains it back. IFSLY rules are silent on how
much difference there needs to be in speed, thus a protest could be--successfully--lodged if Buggy B is even a fraction faster than Buggy A--or
slower, depending on who brings the protest. Of course, it is to Buggy A's tactical advantage to conclude Buggy B has sped up, and vice-versa for
Buggy B, even though the two buggies' courses are converging, possibly at a high rate of speed, whether an "overtaking" is happening or not. Worse, it
is *entirely* incumbent on Buggy A, who does not have a clear sighting of Buggy B, to accurately gauge Buggy B's speed, and to react accurately to
that interpretation of speed. This is no "grey area." It is rather an invitation to manipulate rules in a fairly vicious way and also to precipitate a
VERY dangerous situation, whether playing "fair" or not.
Now, what if a gust comes through as the buggies converge? First Buggy B, with the right of way per IFSLY Article 5, Annex 07B, will speed up, losing
his right of way per IFSLY Article 6, Annex 07C & 07D, then Buggy A will speed up, yielding ROW back to Buggy B, again per Article 5, Annex 07B.
As the gust passes, Buggy B will slow down, maintaining ROW and finally, Buggy A will slow, possibly to below Buggy B's speed, re-invoking Article 6,
Annex 07C and 07D... by which time the collision event, whatever it was going to be, has long since transpired and we're back in the smoke-filled
room.
How much easier would it be to simply have the windward buggy yield to the leeward buggy? The course does not matter. The tack (left or right) does
not matter. A change of course, by either buggy, doesn't change a thing, and the buggy's relative speeds don't matter. The buggier with the commanding
view and perfect knowledge of the situation is the burdened buggy and the guy who can't see a thing has right of way. What's not to like?
Ah, but what about the "two buggies meeting head-on" situation (IFSLY Article 4, Annex 07A)? Well, in virtually every physically possible case, one or
the other buggy is "upwind" and the other is "downwind." Yes, they can willfully bugger this up (the age-old game of "chicken"), but one will still be
upwind and one down; UNLESS the buggies are on perfectly cross-wind reaching courses, and neither yields. In this case NABX Rule 10 still prevails,
"Each racer must do everything possible to avoid a collision." It is patently obvious to bystanders and on-field judges whether either or both
buggiers have abided by this rule, and in the unusual circumstance above, they will get their just desserts, immediately. No smoke-filled room, no
complex interplay of contradicting rules, no big deal. Oh, and no special "buggies meeting" rule, which I might comment, has no definition of when a
"meeting,'" per IFSLY Article 4, Annex 07A becomes a "crossing," per IFSLY Article 5, Annex 07B, and thus when "both yachts must turn right" changes
to "only the left-hand yacht must evade, at whatever cost." Would this be at 5 degrees? 45 degrees? 90? Something larger, or smaller? IFSLY rules, for
all their pages and pages of situations and happenstance, seem to be silent on the issue.
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Steve Bateman
Arcs: P:6,9,12m; Syn:8,10,12 V2:8m
PL Monster Buggy, 1994 Flexi buggy (original owner)
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awindofchange
Posts: 1945
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Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
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I can see the differences in ideas on both of the above posts. I hope that things will stay civil on these issues and that a resolution can be found.
I strongly feel that if these situations can come to an agreement by all parties that racing as we see it will become more of a reality and less of
an argument and mud slinging contest.
I strongly appreciate the PKF staff in allowing this "usually hot and controversial" topic to move forward and know that myself as well as many others
will be watching (and learning) from the ones that post. Hopefully things will continue positive and we can all move forward with a better
understanding of the rules and racing in general.
I would like to add that through conversations with Jon Ellis and the people of the NAPKRA, they have repeated many times that this organization is
built for the members who are interested in racing and want to race. The FILSY rules that were adopted were done so at this time because they happen
to be the best set of known rules available (in the opinion of the current organizers). That being said, there is always room for improvement and
there will always be the need to make changes as different situations become apparent. Even NASCAR which has been running for over 50 years still
implement changes in their current rules - sometimes a rule change or implementation of a new rule happens on a monthly basis.
We would be foolish to think that the current rules will be the rock hard unbreakable set of rules for all eternity, especially now that equipment and
ability are changing at such an impressive rate.
So, as Ellis and many other have said, the NAPKRA is for the buggiers and members who make up the organization. If a situation arises, we can all
work together as members of the organization to find the best solution to the situation that works best for all involved. What I hope will continue
is that instead of attacking or defending one section of the current rules, suggestions and new ideas can be presented in such a way that everyone
involved can analyze the new suggestions and see if it will work for everyone involved - and possibly append the current rules to the new suggestions.
This way we as well as racing in the U.S. can continue to grow and we can all take part in the enjoyment that comes from it.
------------------
My opinion on some of the above:
| Quote: |
Now, what if a gust comes through as the buggies converge? First Buggy B, with the right of way per IFSLY Article 5, Annex 07B, will speed up, losing
his right of way per IFSLY Article 6, Annex 07C & 07D, then Buggy A will speed up, yielding ROW back.........................
Ah, but what about the "two buggies meeting head-on" situation |
I think the most simplest way to solve two buggies heading towards each other is to turn right. If everyone knows this simple rule, there should
never be any issues. Nearly every thinkable situation or scenario can be avoided with this simple rule. Turn right.
We do have to keep in mind that racing involves skilled pilots - at least you have enough skill to pilot a buggy under power and with some speed. Not
everyone is a professional but everyone racing would have enough skill to pilot their own buggy. If everyone turned to the right then there would
never be any type of collision. As stated, if you don't turn right your gonna crash! Upwind pilot raises their kite, downwind pilot lowers their
kite. If you don't then your gonna have a tangle...and then crash. The upwind pilot would be the one upwind after they turned right, so even if you
are heading dead on with each other, once you turn right one will be upwind, the other downwind.
Again, just my opinion.
As far as the other situations, I will be watching to see the answers, hoping that everything will continue to be constructive and productive.
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jellis
Posts: 845
Registered: 1-5-2004
Location: Sunset Beach
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I will make a short statement about the NAPKRA club. The club was formed for safety of the pilots, training, for racers and events, for insurance, for
fun gatherings events, for in numbers we are strong and possibly will have clout to help sway our point of view, for and by the pilots. It is an open
club for all members to help grow and change and things for the better. Tuesday we will be a Non Profit club.
I applaud the PKF in allowing us the opportunity to sort out any road blocks we have had in the past and hopefully change things that need to be
changed for the good of all buggier in North America. I believe we need to work together in order to grow our sport safely.
The FISLY rules were chosen for the safety on racing pilots that are generally traveling at very high speeds and need to know exactly what to do in
racing situations. Secondly we thought that if we were going to compete at a world class level we needed to know the rules they use and be familiar
enough for it to be second nature. We have always said that changes to those rules could be submitted by our members at anytime and voted on by the
members for ratification. Nothing is in stone and everything is open to members review.
Jon Ellis
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jellis
Posts: 845
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Location: Sunset Beach
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Many thanks to Bison for taking on this challenge and to help clarify Fisly rules and for all that would like to participate in this discussion.
Jon Ellis
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bison
Posts: 196
Registered: 3-22-2005
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| Quote: | | Buggy B is about to cross Buggy A, or perhaps converge onto him. He may or may not be overtaking him. It is obvious, per IFSLY rule Article 5, Annex
07B, that Buggy B has right of way, |
While keeping in mind this example. Notice that Buggy A & B are on a similar course. This is an example of “overtaking” not “crossing.” In race briefings
in Denmark, “crossing” was defined as roughly perpendicular in course direction. “overtaking” as roughly parallel. These two rules cover the
most common of meeting engagements encountered in racing. The race officials kept referring to them as “same tack”, “opposing tack.”
| Quote: | | unless he is traveling faster than Buggy A, thus "overtaking," in which case, per IFSLY Article 6, Annex 07C & 07D, Buggy A has right of way.
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This is the only section of article 6 that refers to Buggy A. ARTICLE 6 - OVERTAKING (annex 07C & 07D) (4) THE OVERTAKEN : (5) The overtaken
yacht must, if sailing in a straight line, maintain its course or move aside, and if turning, proceed with a normal manoeuvre. Nevertheless the pilot
of the overtaken yacht may, when meeting an obstacle, carry out a turn, in order to avoid it. Nowhere in this rule is Buggy A given right-of-way.
| Quote: | | He may or may not be overtaking him. |
| Quote: | | Now, Buggy B has had a clear view of Buggy A for a fairly long period of time as he has approached, thus has near-perfect knowledge of Buggy A's
speed, course and even buggying skill. |
What is it? Is Buggy B passing or not?
My experiences in racing have taught me that when racing it’s either run with the pack or pass. Anything else is just blocking or obstructing.
Additionally, Buggy B is severely restricting his maneuverability. In this situation, If I were unable to pass Buggy A and regain my maneuverability,
I would do so by bringing my kite out of the power toward zenith just long enough to change course behind Buggy A and drop the kite quickly to the
power. Since I would be at a better angle to utilize the power of the kite and transfer that into speed. I could easily accelerate with the kite just
above the ground, and pass Buggy A while not impeding in any way. How can I do this and still not infringe the rules. Simple. Art 6 (5)
states … maintain its course or move aside… and FISLY ANNEX n.15 RACING RULES FOR CLASS 8 [1] 1. BEHAVIOR RULES IN RACING 1.1. KITE
POSITION When crossing, overtaking or passing the upwind pilot must to raise his kite, the downing pilot must lower his kite. as long as I
don’t impede Buggy A then I am golden. Yet the rules goes on to take me to task The overtaker must show consideration to the overtaken.
meaning if I blow the maneuver it’s my fault. Consideration for the kite is also important, that’s why this is in the class 8 annex and not in the
main section.
Many of the other scenarios laid out are rooted in the fundamental notion that there is little difference between crossing and overtaking. This
misinterpretation leads to incorrect conclusions.
One last thing.
| Quote: | | The question that he references me for is a visibaility issue; having to look over my windward shoulder going one way, and my downwind shoulder the
other way, doesn't seem very safe. |
The example didn't illustrate kite position. From Buggy A's POV he would easily see Buggy B's kite as he approached. Buggy A would not be required to
monitor his 6 since the "overtaking" is the responsibility of Buggy B. Kite bugging and racing is about monitoring multiple parameters. As one passes
beyond watching the kite to feeling the kite, situational awareness increases dramatically. This important step is the difference between just
finishing and placing.
Buggy Bison
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ripsessionkites
Posts: 4043
Registered: 10-17-2006
Location: California, Las Vegas
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Mood: retired until racing starts
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well, put ... there are a number of races that take place here at the different events. SOBB has their rules, NABX has their rules. NAPKRA uses FISLY
because we wanted to follow what other countries are using so we're all familar with the same rules.
I plan on going on a trip next AUG for 3 to 4 weeks to Holland, Germany, and France and will follow the FISLY rules used.
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jellis
Posts: 845
Registered: 1-5-2004
Location: Sunset Beach
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Mood: SOBB
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SOBB uses FISLY Rules.
Jon
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geokite
Posts: 483
Registered: 2-26-2004
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Mood: name is mud...
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| Quote: | Originally posted by bison
| Quote: | | Buggy B is about to cross Buggy A, or perhaps converge onto him. He may or may not be overtaking him. It is obvious, per IFSLY rule Article 5, Annex
07B, that Buggy B has right of way, |
While keeping in mind this example. Notice that Buggy A & B are on a similar course. This is an example of “overtaking” not “crossing.” In
race briefings in Denmark, “crossing” was defined as roughly perpendicular in course direction. “overtaking” as roughly
parallel. These two rules cover the most common of meeting engagements encountered in racing. The race officials kept referring to them as “same
tack”, “opposing tack.” |
Where in the rules does it give the angle to distinguish an overtaking from a crossing? You say 90 degrees from the meeting you went to in Denmark;
where did they get that angle? Why not 88 degrees? Who determines this as the two buggies approach, albit rather quickly? Isn’t this
something that could (will) be argued after the race? How is “the downwind buggier has the right of way” not a better rule in this case?
The angle at which the buggies converge can be manipulated by the fliers, so the right of way can be manipulated. Buggy B can alter his route to give
him the right of way, forcing buggy A to alter his course (trying to get right of way back). Egads, what a cluster****...
| Quote: | Originally posted by bison
| Quote: | | unless he is traveling faster than Buggy A, thus "overtaking," in which case, per IFSLY Article 6, Annex 07C & 07D, Buggy A has right of way.
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This is the only section of article 6 that refers to Buggy A. ARTICLE 6 - OVERTAKING (annex 07C & 07D) (4) THE OVERTAKEN : (5) The overtaken
yacht must, if sailing in a straight line, maintain its course or move aside, and if turning, proceed with a normal manoeuvre. Nevertheless the pilot
of the overtaken yacht may, when meeting an obstacle, carry out a turn, in order to avoid it. Nowhere in this rule is Buggy A given right-of-way.
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No, the rules say that Buggy A would have the right of way. From the rest of annex 07c and 07d: “The pilot of the overtaking yacht is
responsible for the manoeuvre.“ “It is an infringement of the rules to compel the overtaken yacht to change its course or slacken speed in
order to avoid a collision. “ How does that not give buggy A has the right of way? Do we need to clarify what right of way means?
| Quote: | Originally posted by bison
| Quote: | | He may or may not be overtaking him. |
| Quote: | | Now, Buggy B has had a clear view of Buggy A for a fairly long period of time as he has approached, thus has near-perfect knowledge of Buggy A's
speed, course and even buggying skill. |
What is it? Is Buggy B passing or not? |
Wouldn’t make a difference. Buggy B can see anyone downwind of him/her
| Quote: | Originally posted by bison
My experiences in racing have taught me that when racing it’s either run with the pack or pass. Anything else is just blocking or obstructing.
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Bummer for the newbie!
| Quote: | Originally posted by bison
Many of the other scenarios laid out are rooted in the fundamental notion that there is little difference between crossing and overtaking. This
misinterpretation leads to incorrect conclusions. |
Little difference? As stated above, right of way is different if you are crossing or overtaking. Big difference.
| Quote: | Originally posted by bison
| Quote: | | The question that he references me for is a visibaility issue; having to look over my windward shoulder going one way, and my downwind shoulder the
other way, doesn't seem very safe. |
The example didn't illustrate kite position. From Buggy A's POV he would easily see Buggy B's kite as he approached. Buggy A would not be required to
monitor his 6 since the "overtaking" is the responsibility of Buggy B. |
Having “overtaking” responsibility doesn’t give the right of way to the other flier? Having responsibility to not impede sure
sounds to me like not having the right of way.
| Quote: | Originally posted by bison
Kite bugging and racing is about monitoring multiple parameters. As one passes beyond watching the kite to feeling the kite, situational awareness
increases dramatically. This important step is the difference between just finishing and placing. |
uh, yea...
So to summarize, it seems that (currently) we have a disagreement on how to interpret the rules pertaining to right of way (imagine that!). You feel
that right of way is not stated for an overtaking, while I feel the rules clearly state that the overtaken has the right of way.
Again, how is the simple statement “the downwind buggier has the right of way” not a better rule than all this?
Funny how Fisly rules refer to buggies, not paracarts…
Steve Bateman
Arcs: P:6,9,12m; Syn:8,10,12 V2:8m
PL Monster Buggy, 1994 Flexi buggy (original owner)
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geokite
Posts: 483
Registered: 2-26-2004
Member Is Offline
Mood: name is mud...
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After waiting the same amount of time it took me to respond (I'll apologize like I have already to Richard);
Can't anyone defend the usage of Fisly rules?
Waiting.
Steve Bateman
Arcs: P:6,9,12m; Syn:8,10,12 V2:8m
PL Monster Buggy, 1994 Flexi buggy (original owner)
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awindofchange
Posts: 1945
Registered: 3-14-2006
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
Member Is Offline
Mood: Awesome - totally awesome
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Is there another set of rules that you like better Steve? AFAIK, the FISLY rules are thus far, the best ones available at this time. That is not to
say that they can't be altered or changed as needs warrant (with majority rule anyways). Every sports organization that I know of has rule changes
from year to year as different situations arise, I don't think that the current FISLY rules are any different and know that they aren't carved in
stone.
Not trying to stir the pot - just wanting to know if there are other alternatives that are better and perhaps have a discussion on those as well.
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bison
Posts: 196
Registered: 3-22-2005
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by geokite
After waiting the same amount of time it took me to respond (I'll apologize like I have already to Richard); |
I U2U'd you personally, several times for a response. After over two months you finally responded.
YOU, SENT ONE U2U!!!
As I said in my U2U that I was really busy right now and would respond WHEN I HAD TIME!!! Thanks for posting this here publicly, it allows me to
address the issue. Initially, I responded within days of your original question (actually Dave's) and you took several months and several U2Us before
you came back with a response. Instead of handling this privately you chose to post publicly instead. Why is that Steve? What is the real motive here?
| Quote: | | Can't anyone defend the usage of Fisly rules? |
I agreed to answer your questions about FISLY! I DID NOT AGREE to debate the veracity of any rules.
Yep, you will be waiting more now. I was getting ready to respond to your post. I had most of it typed up. Now you're just going to have to wait till
I FEEL like responding. HAD YOU HANDLED IT IN AN ADULT WAY YOU WOULD NOT HAVE TO WAIT.
| Quote: | RULES: To participate in the discussion you must:
1. Keep comments focused on the topic - not about other contributors.
2. Post constructive comments aimed at advancing the sport - not to drive a personal agenda.
3. Be courteous to contributors and readers.
4. Send personal comments via U2U.
5. Be mindful of the extra time out of line comments require of our volunteer moderators. |
Here are the rules Bob originally posted when he started this sub-forum. Please heed them.
Buggy Bison
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geokite
Posts: 483
Registered: 2-26-2004
Member Is Offline
Mood: name is mud...
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| Quote: | Originally posted by awindofchange
Is there another set of rules that you like better Steve? AFAIK, the FISLY rules are thus far, the best ones available at this time. That is not to
say that they can't be altered or changed as needs warrant (with majority rule anyways). Every sports organization that I know of has rule changes
from year to year as different situations arise, I don't think that the current FISLY rules are any different and know that they aren't carved in
stone.
Not trying to stir the pot - just wanting to know if there are other alternatives that are better and perhaps have a discussion on those as well.
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The nabx rules are far superior, posted at http://www.nabx.net/about/racing-rules.html
No rules that can obviously be manipulated, they are easy to understand (no matter what direction you are going), simple, concise, etc. Previous
posts have pointed this out, as the major issue of contention is the right of way rules. "Upwind racers must yield to downwind racers." So simple.
Steve Bateman
Arcs: P:6,9,12m; Syn:8,10,12 V2:8m
PL Monster Buggy, 1994 Flexi buggy (original owner)
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geokite
Posts: 483
Registered: 2-26-2004
Member Is Offline
Mood: name is mud...
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| Quote: | Originally posted by bison
| Quote: | Originally posted by geokite
After waiting the same amount of time it took me to respond (I'll apologize like I have already to Richard); |
I U2U'd you personally, several times for a response. After over two months you finally responded.
YOU, SENT ONE U2U!!!
As I said in my U2U that I was really busy right now and would respond WHEN I HAD TIME!!! Thanks for posting this here publicly, it allows me to
address the issue. Initially, I responded within days of your original question (actually Dave's) and you took several months and several U2Us before
you came back with a response. Instead of handling this privately you chose to post publicly instead. Why is that Steve? What is the real motive here?
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If you needed more time you could have just posted so. I was thinking equal time was the basis for this, not equal number of reminder messages. My
mistake.
| Quote: | Originally posted by bison
| Quote: | Originally posted by geokite
Can't anyone defend the usage of Fisly rules?
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I agreed to answer your questions about FISLY! I DID NOT AGREE to debate the veracity of any rules.
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By explaining Fisly rules I would hope someone would be explaining why they are a good set of rules to use; clear, concise, not open for manipulation,
etc. I do not know if that is what you can do.
| Quote: | Originally posted by bison
| Quote: | Originally posted by geokite
Waiting. |
Yep, you will be waiting more now. I was getting ready to respond to your post. I had most of it typed up. Now you're just going to have to wait till
I FEEL like responding. HAD YOU HANDLED IT IN AN ADULT WAY YOU WOULD NOT HAVE TO WAIT.
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Why the shouting?
| Quote: | Originally posted by bison
RULES: To participate in the discussion you must:
1. Keep comments focused on the topic - not about other contributors.
2. Post constructive comments aimed at advancing the sport - not to drive a personal agenda.
3. Be courteous to contributors and readers.
4. Send personal comments via U2U.
5. Be mindful of the extra time out of line comments require of our volunteer moderators.
Here are the rules Bob originally posted when he started this sub-forum. Please heed them. |
All I did was mention that I had apologized to you for the lateness of my reply. How is that a personal comment?
Steve Bateman
Arcs: P:6,9,12m; Syn:8,10,12 V2:8m
PL Monster Buggy, 1994 Flexi buggy (original owner)
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bison
Posts: 196
Registered: 3-22-2005
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | | If you needed more time you could have just posted so. I was thinking equal time was the basis for this, not equal number of reminder messages. My
mistake. |
Yet you failed to do EXACTLY that the first time around! I had to send repeated U2Us before you would even respond to my post addressing Dave's
questions.
| Quote: | | By explaining Fisly rules I would hope someone would be explaining why they are a good set of rules to use; clear, concise, not open for manipulation,
etc. I do not know if that is what you can do. |
It is one thing to answer questions concerning the application of FISLY rules. It is a whole different conversation when addressing the "...clear,
concise, not open for manipulation..." nature of said rules. The former is factual and demonstrable. The latter is simply a matter of opinion. You
have shown again and again your disdain for FISLY rules. It is becoming quite apparent that your motive was much different than mine in participating
in this thread. Originally, you wanted questions answered, yet now you want a justification for USING FISLY rules. This is NOT the reason I agreed to
answer your questions.
| Quote: | | All I did was mention that I had apologized to you for the lateness of my reply. How is that a personal comment? |
Actually you posted "Can't anyone defend the usage of Fisly rules?" This is obviously a direct comment on my lack of timely response to your post. Yet
you posted here instead of sending a U2U.
Steve, What is your motivation here? Why are you so motivated in continually pointing out YOUR opinion of FISLY rules. Yes, Steve we get it, you don't
like FISLY rules. Since you will never race using these rules and have consistently attacked said rules, what is the point if you have already made up
your mind? Originally you said: "I could be convinced to supporting fisly rules, but convinced is the key word." I had hoped that you would have an
open mind about it. Obviously, I was wrong.
Buggy Bison
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tototo
Posts: 35
Registered: 9-25-2009
Location: Baie de Somme (France)
Member Is Offline
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I know this subject is an old one, I wanted to point out that race director, is the one that will shape the fisly rules to become something soft or
not.
But excluded the priority for the people coming right to you, the man thing is more priority is for the one your going to pass over, the slower get
the priority.
So now a question, do someone have pointed the difference between FISLY and other rules ?
What are those ?
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