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BeamerBob

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posted on 4-12-2010 at 12:03 PM

The NABX learning curve

I've thought about this stuff for a couple weeks now and think I have it sorted out.

I'm accustomed to running big kites to let me have plenty of power on tap for beaches and grass. 10 mph has me out on my 7m Blurr. 12-18 on my 5.5 Reactor II or the Phantom 15m. Get under 7 and the 8.6 or 10.8m Reactor IIs come out.

At NABX on the hard fast surface of Ivanpah dry lake, I was constantly taking out too much kite. Every time (about 3 times as I remember) I took out the 5.5 RII I was overpowered out in the middle of the lakebed. One of these times I was told that my venture onto the lakebed "is a waste of time" due to lack of wind. 5 minutes later, I'm trying desperately to enhance gravity to hold myself in my buggy due to the lift of a relatively non-lifty kite. Overpowered again, and can't pull the kite down lower because it makes me go faster and I'm already concerned about how I might stop at the interstate that is still a mile away.

On Saturday, I took out my Phantom which I routinely throw around like a toy a tenth its size. I was in survival mode the entire ride with it. That thing feeds on the wind in ways I couldn't imagine. The slightest pull from the kite increases your speed which feeds wind into the machine above me. That in turn propels you forward eventually reaching speeds that I had before found myself in with the 5.5 RII. Up high induces lift and anything below makes me worry that I won't ever get rid of the speed that is inevitable.

Same thing with the 9.5 Montana. I rode it very gingerly the first day but that's a big kite and I was constantly on edge to guard against it getting sent behind me so it could pluck me out for a brief aerial view of the lakebed. I had a good run with it but was at the edge of controllability half the time. It is stable and really has the power but it is hard to depower enough to feel comfortable at speeds that come easy on the hard surface.

4.2m Combat was also a huge kite there. I would be fine for a minute and then when the wind would pick up a slight bit, I'm in that familiar position with a surging kite overhead wanting to go faster than the 35-40 mph I'm already running and seemingly no way to stop.

I'm sure as my skills increase, I could make use of what are large kites on the lakebed but I soon realized that every time I had fun out there, I had a 3 to 3.4 meter kite out. I had my most enjoyable runs with my HQ Beamer IV 3m and the preproduction 3.4m HQ Prodigy race kite. Next year, I'll have my sub 4m quiver built up a little more with kites like the 2.8m and 3.5m Reactor IIs, or similar sizing in the HQ prodigy line. I'm very comfortable with the Reactors as long as I'm properly powered and the Prodigy was stable within my skill level, meaning we match up in that it offers me good performance without seeming to have flight characteristics I can't control.

I would also like to have the safety, and variable power of a depower kite there, but I don't currently own one that is proper for conditions at Ivanpah. Maybe a small arc like a 9-10m or so would be manageable. Several riders swore allegiance to their HQ Apex depowers in 7.5m size. I've yet to fly one but will need to before next year. Hopefully in some strong wind to see how it does at the brink.

What have you veterans learned to help me be better prepared and make better kite choices next year?

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rocfighter

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posted on 4-12-2010 at 12:42 PM

Thanks for writing all of that. It gives a good learning curve for the rest of us less experianced buggiers. I don't have any room around here to get up any speed but I hope to go somewhere soon that I can try.

Ozzy

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posted on 4-12-2010 at 12:53 PM

The biggest mistake I see lots of pilots make on , for example, hanging in those brakelines !, don't do that, trust on you kite, even overpower , when stopping, loosen the brakes lines as much as possible while steering the kite above you, then tack up a bit, and turn. It sounds easier then done, but that is the way.

When overpowered steering you kite above you and then hitting the brake lines to much,...pfff,. OBE ,!....so trust you kite, especially the reactor II, loose on the brakes....

Next time it is maybe time for some of us, to show it....

regards,
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BeamerBob

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posted on 4-12-2010 at 01:12 PM

Ozzy, I'm a willing student to anyone that has advice to offer. I listened to everything I heard you Dutch guys saying in particular.

I'm pretty sure I was letting the kites slip through the air without the brakes when I felt overpowered up high. I"ll keep that in mind next chance I get on the lakebed though to make sure the brakelines have an arc in them if I"m up high

arkay

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posted on 4-12-2010 at 01:15 PM

My first time on the playa but I found myself on my sting 1.7 sunday-tuesday and on my rage 2.5/3.5 the rest of the week. Started tiny and wroked up. Plenty of power for crusing. And I'm a solid fanboy of the sting in high winds; wasn't too much like a gnat and was very stable. I ended up usually rolling 25-30mph, thanks to the no rolling resistance. I was usually just under powered or just powered so I was having fun working loops. Next year I'll bump it up some now that I've got a feel for the surface. Was also nice flying the lower aspect kites to get used to the surface, they don't really want to fly forward of you and rocket you off. Also not enough lift to really eject you unless you get the kite way behind you at high speeds.

I got up to 35 a few times and found that shaving speed up wind took a pretty long time on the surface and found myself just shaving off enough speed to be about 20/25 then doing a hard 180 or less ocasionally kicking my feet up and riding it out downwind.

I imagine that my montana 5 would have been prime, but it never came out of the bag!

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ripsessionkites

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posted on 4-12-2010 at 04:13 PM

whatever you use at home based on the wind, size down by 1-2m (unless your going for max speed)

also if you're brake heavy on home terrain, its time to let loose. at high speeds you want your kite infront and down low not dragging behind you. also some tie knots into their bridles after the pre-stretching to balance out the kite a bit more.

short handles on small kites helps keep the control, but Im the complete opposite I like my large handles on all sizes.

how to deal with gusts, most fight against it and curve upwind to slow down. With that much surface to play on, its actually better to coast with the gust and turn into it a bit than start thinking kite position to slow down.

every year is different, but you must have a 2m and 3m in the bag. thats basically all i used other than the odd day on the 5m / 11.2m / 16.1m

since everyone seems to ask what i was using the Orange Vapor was 2.3m and Black/Red Vapor was the 3.2m both on 15m lines.

lastly if you can get Verstein Tires in your area, get them ... we used the set from last year to this year and they are just starting to show wear now.

see you at NABX 2011

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Bladerunner

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posted on 4-12-2010 at 04:20 PM

I found I was very comfortable with the 7.5 Apex and my 10m Charger this year. Previously my 7m Pulse has been my go to kite. In every case my 2.5 profoil has been the ticket when the winds started in to the high 30's and 40's.

I hate to admitt it but those crazy winds take away from some of the fun for me. I don't enjoy riding when I feel I'm in survival mood all that much.

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Coolbreeze

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posted on 4-12-2010 at 05:34 PM

I think what Ozzy has said is correct. As a noob and attending NABX for the first time I was really surprised by the wind. I flew my 1.5 Hornet and 2.2 reactor2 and got yanked twice with the 2.2. I was convinced that the kite was set up wrong and after having Michelle ( the guy who designed the kite) take a look at it he figured out that there was way too much break causeing the kite to want to fly at the back of the window, getting behind me, powering up and out I'd go. This happened twice before I had decided that I didnt want to do that again. I think my lesson here is what we would consider normal at home dosent aply at Nabx. I learned alot from watching the pros ( The Dutch) although from the amount of times they had to rescue my kite when landing they might have a different oppinion :rolleyes:

It's counter intuative to let a kite go when you are already going way too fast and the natural reaction is to hit the braeks but like Ozzy says it might not be the correct thing to do.

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action jackson

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posted on 4-12-2010 at 05:43 PM

I feel the most important thing to learn is scrubing speed! Using your hips to kick the wheels out at the right time and during gust!When you master the art of slowing down, you will feel more comfortable at speed!........aj

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csa_deadon

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posted on 4-12-2010 at 10:52 PM

Bob I dealt with the same issues. Rarely does anything smaller then a 5m come out back home. I am so comfortable now with my 5m flow at home that I bring it out in 20 mph winds for the beach. Mistake number one: I wasn't home. First attempt on the playa was the last for the day in question. Ol' reliable jerked me right over the top of my buggy leaving me with a friendly reminder, and a limp for the rest of the day. Glad I had the body armor on, just wish I had another area protected! :embarrased:

Will still bring most of my gear for next year including big wings, but will have to enhance the smaller sizes to my quiver.

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bigkid

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posted on 4-13-2010 at 06:27 AM

I too was surprised that I wasn't flying like at home.
First kite out was a 4.5 Soulfly and right off the bat I upped my PB to 42.7 with 2 almost flat tires and a few times standing on the foot pegs trying to steer the buggy back under my butt. Then Michael (from PKD) told me that Stephan was doing his speed runs with a 3.9 Combat. So I spent the week using a 15m NPW or a 2.8 and 3.5 Soulfly, with little to no brakes.
I think a lot of my problem was that the buggy would role with no effort at all, unlike the beach or the sodfarm. Thus the way I fly had to be modified to adjust for the extra speed.
Now, to go back to the OLD way of buggying :thumbdown:

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PHREERIDER

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posted on 4-13-2010 at 06:43 AM

the playa requires speed control adjustments for sure. effortless roll out and texture grip all produce a unique feel, and if you are not use to heavy air it can be a very intimidating. Nice going BB for detailing it out.

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BeamerBob

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posted on 4-13-2010 at 08:11 AM

I'm certain I can get by there with 3 kites now, and the only one above 4 m will either be a small arc or a 5-8m depower. I'm thinking the extra grip my midi tires had might've hurt my top speed and my ability to scrub speed also. It'll be smoothie barrows next year with the bigfoot lites in reserve for the out n back run next time. The smooth ride would be worth any negatives. Coolbreeze had his beach racers on and didn't hardly notice that it was a rough ride out there.

Rip, your formula sounds right for what I observed as well. I'll look for some of those tires. I guess if I start sliding to scrub speed more, they will be wearing faster.

Also, Michelle(sp?) helped me with my Reactor II bridle some. He explained what he was doing, what the effect would be and then how to put the bridle back together properly. It was cool when he had my 5.5 bridle strewn across the ground in pieces and making adjustments when he started a sentence once with "when I designed this kite".................. Talk about getting to the heart of the matter!

airin

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posted on 4-13-2010 at 09:17 AM

I find it really interesting reading what you, more experienced buggiers, have to say about the NABX experience. As a beginner I came to NABX with the hopes of having lots of room in which to learn and develope some fundamentals. Not so!

My smallest kite was a 2.0 Hornet which usually I would expect only to use in really high winds on my home turf. At NABX the Hornet just didn't feel small enough. I was amazed at how fast my buggy rolled on the lakebed and spent more time than I wanted to trying to keep my speed down in order to feel under control both while rolling and turning. I struggled to go upwind to keep my speed down, I tried to scrub off speed with the rear wheels and often I just ended up doing a Flintstone stop to catch my breath and collect myself before starting my learning to ride routine all over again.

The most fun I had was when one of the Flexifoil 'pro's took me out for a tandem ride. Not only did I learn a lot from watching him fly his 5.5 Rasta kite but also thoroughly enjoyed being relaxed, for a change, on the playa, in a buggy.

As a beginner I left NABX feeling like I'd bit off more than I could chew. I did learn a lot from watching more experienced pilots and helping with kite management back at buggy camp but the real learning, with a kite in my hands and the buggy seat under my butt, didn't happen to the degree that I'd hoped it would.

"Would I go again?" lots of folks have asked me. Humm....not sure, definitely I'd want to have better skills before heading out again to play with the Big Boys.

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BeamerBob

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posted on 4-13-2010 at 09:35 AM

I remember how scary it was when learning to buggy even with the resistance of the sand which I didn't notice or appreciate at the time. Even on beach sand the buggy seemed to just run away with speed. Now I know it was quite slow by comparison to the lakebed and can empathize with how you must've felt on that surface. You'll get lots of good experience in the next year and be able to better appreciate the possibilities on the hard surface. I hope you'll come back so we can have a proper introduction. I now remember sitting right beside you and didn't introduce myself. :crazy:

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posted on 4-13-2010 at 11:01 AM

And you'll need to get a Sting

Bob, true about the BF for the outback... would have been nice in a few spots but smooth narrows for the rest of the time was penty for me. Next year I want to do a day long outback adventure... Looks like the flexi guys (from tent video) found some neat spots on the way eastern side of the lakebed.

rocfighter

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posted on 4-13-2010 at 11:17 AM

This is a great thread. Thanks for continueing with all the cool information and tips.

ripsessionkites

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posted on 4-13-2010 at 11:24 AM

i will never do the Out and Back again without a FRESH pair of tires.

@ bigkid if you could hold down that 4.5m ... you would be faster. the bigger the wing the more efficient it is.

@ BB, it was good to have Michel there since he could tune what you needed. you also learn a lot just from listening to him. :thumbup:

its great that he came, so now he knows what our conditions are like and design some gust munching FB and Speed kites. hehehe.

awindofchange

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posted on 4-13-2010 at 11:49 AM

The thing to remember is that speed = power! With the very low resistance of the lake bed it is very easy to make some pretty impressive speeds. As the buggy starts to build speed, the kite also builds speed which in turn creates more power from the kite. This is the reason that you can start out just fine with a larger sized kite but by the time you get 100 yards out of camp you are getting over powered.

High aspect ratio kites work best at the lake bed because you can get them out on the edge of the window where they create the least amount of power and still get crusin' at an awesome speed. Unlike an area that has a ton of resistance (sandy beach, tall grassy fields) where a high aspect ratio kite will overshoot the buggy and fall out of the air with a nasty bowtie before the buggy even moves 20 feet. You get moving fast, so going out underpowered at first will soon become nicely powered once you build up speed in the buggy.

Our most common size kite here is the 3.0 meter size. Most of you that don't fly on the lake beds will chuckle and say that the 3.0 is a trainer or something to use when the winds are nukin'.....but here the 3.0 is awesome in most winds because you can build up so much more speed in the buggy. In race foils, 2.5 to 3.5 is perfect when the winds are running between 12mph to 25mph. With enough efficiency in the foil and pilot - you can get very near 3 times the wind speed....so flying a 3.2(ish) sized foil in 25 mph could = 75mph. Remember, if you are traveling at 75mph, the kite is also traveling at 75mph (or faster if you dare pump or loop it).

As mentioned above, tight brake lines is great for giving you extra grunt power on grassy fields or soft sandy beaches but on the lake bed all it does is make the kite hang back in the window and create tons of side drag. This also gets you some speed but you end up flying like you are tethered to the kite and the kite is treating you like a rag doll - yanking you everywhere you want to put it. With loose brake lines the kite can climb out to the edge of the window and smoothly pull you forward, then you can use the tack angle of the buggy to either increase or decrease speed as needed.

Hope that helps some. The lakebed is an awesome place to ride, plenty of room and even if the wind is only blowing 2-3 mph you can get some great riding.

Happy Winds!
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art_lessing

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posted on 4-13-2010 at 12:59 PM

I havent been to nabx but I have been on a similar playa...I found the most fun I had was with a 3.o buster with 25 feet of paracord...the cord acts as a big drag and the kite doesn't really get the chance to power up all the way with such short lines....this thing is now my go to high wind kite..plus I just wanted to mention how fun it is to ride on a playa and rarely ever not be able to get back to your starting point ....its a great way to learn to go up wind

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ripsessionkites

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posted on 4-13-2010 at 02:59 PM

rule #1

check your brain cells at your vehicle

remember to keep just one cell (the one that stops you from $shittinG)

just have fun at any speed

bigkid

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posted on 4-13-2010 at 04:57 PM

Quote:

@ bigkid if you could hold down that 4.5m ... you would be faster. the bigger the wing the more efficient it is.

Rip, I know I could hold down the kite but the Climax lines I had on the kite failed when the power line broke at the knot at the handle. Took an hour to untangle the mess and fix them.

PHREERIDER

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posted on 4-13-2010 at 05:57 PM

free rolling.. totally controlled by kite,

this must be mastered as, AJ states.

and comfortable with the kites' total range.

this helps with what RIP states, home spot wind feel, and brainlessness.

timeless phreedom in the wind. best education i ever had.

ripsessionkites

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posted on 4-13-2010 at 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bigkid

Quote:

@ bigkid if you could hold down that 4.5m ... you would be faster. the bigger the wing the more efficient it is.

Rip, I know I could hold down the kite but the Climax lines I had on the kite failed when the power line broke at the knot at the handle. Took an hour to untangle the mess and fix them.

what were you using 190/90??? thats too light

240 / 160 is what the big boys use.

if you need a sleeving kit, let me know

bigkid

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posted on 4-13-2010 at 08:57 PM

Sorry Rip it was 240/160, it came from you. Ask the pink skirt.
What can I say, I hung on till the line broke and off the kite went, had enough speed build up to coast all the way back to the truck.
Heliboy50 supplied me with repair parts. All is good now :thumbup:

bigkid

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posted on 4-13-2010 at 09:05 PM

ripsessionkites

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posted on 4-13-2010 at 09:31 PM

my god, are a big boy like Ozzy ... and needs more Test Weight

bigkid

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posted on 4-13-2010 at 09:37 PM

Standing next to Stephan, I am half of him. You might know how that is. :lol:

I was really pushing the bug and the kite, and it has happened before, if you aint pushin, your pullin.

bigkid

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posted on 4-14-2010 at 06:42 AM

end of hijack, :embarrased:

BeamerBob

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posted on 4-14-2010 at 07:53 AM

A bit more leaning curve for me. Everyone said once the playa dust hits the kite, especially black sections, it is there to stay. Spraying, scrubbing, washing machine, none of it works. I sprayed down my combat and Phanny yesterday and the Combat came about 90% clean. The Phanny about 70%. I laid them out on the patio and just started spraying and I could see brown water on the downstream side. I hung them to dry (got some friendly comments from the neighbors regarding the 32 foot Phanny draped from an upstairs balcony) and after all that it was well worth the effort. 5.5 Reactor II gets a bath today...............

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