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Author: Subject: Q powerline vs PL lines
rectifier




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[*] posted on 12-10-2013 at 10:09 PM


Pete, the price looks right for the hollow spectra. Especially for homebuilds where the lineset shouldn't cost more than the kite and bar together!

Did you do the sketchy sounding truck stretch?
I know some guys with a strain gauge tester they use to test rated chain. Might be a good way to do it safer.
I see they also offer a 500#. Was the 800# super thick, I'm considering the 500# for my NPWs as I don't jump with them and only weigh 140lbs myself. Want to maintain the light wind performance by keeping the lines thin.




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[*] posted on 12-10-2013 at 10:42 PM


We have Q-power line in stock in 600#, 300#, and 200#.



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[*] posted on 12-11-2013 at 07:59 AM


out all the lines i have used from almost every major manufacture (and they all break wear and fail) ...the Q line is the only one type i have never experienced a failure. the only one. the tight casing is just the best.

and BTW i have TRIDUDEs q-line set now and its still rockin'




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[*] posted on 12-11-2013 at 03:31 PM


I've only flown Q Powerline 2x on other people's kites. Am I wrong in thinking it is pretty stiff and sort of thick and a bit of a pain to untwist if the lines get tangled? I've always been curious of QP because my kites are flown on Y lines and a few of them aren't standard lengths so QP makes sense as a replacement but my recollections are of it being thick and more sticky/binding when the kite is spun. Am I recalling correctly?



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[*] posted on 12-11-2013 at 10:19 PM


Since pictures = 1K words, I took a few to explain what I have found. To not confuse points, I'll use a post per picture. I want to preface this with I am not promoting any products. I have bought 2 spools of Q-Power Line and it has worked well. Lines get old and need to be replaced. Just sharing my opinion here... Like after flying Rev Stunt/Precision kites with the supplied 100+# lines, once I tried Laser Pro Gold 50#, all my other line sets have been in a box. A bit more expensive but worth it in my opinion, you may not agree, ok with me, please share why with us ;)

So attached is a picture with:
- 800# White Jerry Brown Spectra
- 600# Orange Q-Powerline (not Pro version)
- 500# Gray Cabrinha Kite OEM Spectra
- 500# Orange Cabrinha Kite OEM Spectra
- 500# White Shanti WarpSpeed Spectra
- 200# White Shanti WarpSpeed Spectra

This is to show the size differences. 800# braided Spectra does look larger than Q-Power, it feels like the same weight.

6Lines.jpg - 59kB




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[*] posted on 12-11-2013 at 10:32 PM


This is a picture of the 8 ends (4 lines) of my worn Cabrinha OEM kiteboard lines that go into the sleeving sewn loops. Left steering line is yellow, right is gray, and center lines that take most of the load are orange. The braided spectra gets fuzzy letting you know individual fibers/strands are broken. The colored lines help see the fuzz (more than white I think).

The rest of the lines really have very little fuzzy areas. Might cut them down re-sleeve for some shorter lines.

I have noticed on the LEI kites the center line wear/fuzz more than the steering line, which kind of makes sense because it is under more load/strain.

Some LEI Kite OEMs provide heavier/stronger lines for the center set.

CabrinhaLines2.jpg - 57kB




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[*] posted on 12-11-2013 at 10:45 PM


Unlike the braded spectra fuzz, the Q-PowerLine sleeving protects the core un-braided spectra. But when the sleeving gets nicks it makes bumps like in the pictures. This is where the un-braided spectra gets exposed and can poke out and if caught on anything the unbraided strands tear. It is hard to guess what is going on under each bump and when it is time to scrap the lines. Q-Powerline is stiffer and can kink. I assume if the kinks are pulled tight they can stress the sleeving and start a hole/tear.

I show this to compare with different the wear characteristics shown in the previous post.


QpowerNics.jpg - 34kB




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[*] posted on 12-11-2013 at 10:50 PM


Kind of hard to see but this is what happens when the sleeving completely breaks all the way around the spectra core. The unbraided spectra really makes the line limp and you know it is time to scrap that piece, even if the strands have not started to break.

Qpowersplit.jpg - 43kB




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[*] posted on 12-11-2013 at 10:54 PM


This is what the Orange Q-PowerLine looks like when it fails and below is the 500# braided Spectra lines that also were loaded to failure. You can really see the sleeving stretched less than the core spectra. Also, the break point was at the knot, the little piece of orange after the knot is sleeving with no core spectra inside.

BrokenLines.jpg - 61kB




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[*] posted on 12-11-2013 at 11:21 PM


Quote:

rectifier “…Did you do the sketchy sounding truck stretch? I know some guys with a strain gauge tester they use to test rated chain. Might be a good way to do it safer.”


Yep, I used the trailer hitch in a remote park with no one around. Instead of trying to stretch 500# of line, I made 4 lines and then stretched them together.

For the fuse I used cheap hardware store mason #18 that had a tensile strength (force required to pull something to the point where it breaks) of 100# (working load 18#). I could pull and break the single line fuse. Then I made a loop of the string for a fuse (shared load with 2 strings) of 200# and it broke very easily. Then I doubled the loops for 400# it took a little bit more to break that. So I did not want to really go too much more than that so I tripled the loops, stretched lines a little more but did not break the fuse.

Q-PowerLines unstretched are really springy feeling, not what you want on your kite. After stretch they are solid and kind of have a rigid wire type feel. The Braided spectra is pulled tighter but just a flexible.

Be careful and be sure to put a 12+ foot rope parallel to the fuse so the line does not whip. Also one foot on the brake so when the fuse does go you stop as quick as you can. Yea, I guess this does sound a little :crazy:




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[*] posted on 12-12-2013 at 04:49 AM


That was very interesting. Thanks Pete, good work. :D



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[*] posted on 12-12-2013 at 07:17 AM


Good look at different lines and wear. It's interesting that you found a performance difference after stretching Q-power! They claim pretty loudly that it will not stretch. Maybe it didn't get longer but changes the dynamics of it.
I'm going to pick up some of that Jerry Brown 500#, like the idea of splicing with a fid instead of knots.




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[*] posted on 12-12-2013 at 07:34 AM


wow , love the line love Pete! it does have wire like stiffness and behavior.

and since we are on the line topic , here's action failure deluxe...somethings you just can't imagine. flexifoil or PL with about 1500 hours on them...check it

http://vimeo.com/45808707

and the line details after ...

http://vimeo.com/48995997





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[*] posted on 12-12-2013 at 08:17 AM


Good stuff.
Pete, all I could think of was a great use for all the broken line sets I have. A tow rope for the truck.:D
A simple and safer idea is to use a 2 ton comealong, in place of the gas peddle. I use my truck as one point and a tree in the back yard as the other. With one end of the line hooked to a strap around the tree with the other end hooked to a comealong which is hooked to a length of half inch amsteal to adjust for length which is hooked to the truck. I have a hanging scale rated to 1000lb between the line and the comealong to see how its going.
I used this method to test the line strength of all the test lines to see how they reacted and where there breaking point was.
One of the things that is a key indicator to a lineset just before breaking is it changes color. All the lines I tested that were colored, the color faded as it reached its breaking point. The lines that were white changed color also, not much but compared to a new set it was noticeable.

Now this was the way I tested about 40 different lines, gradually stretching the line. I did start to test the same lines with a sudden quick pull of 250lbs and after they all broke I decided enough was enough.

The Q-lines did fare a bit better but I belive it because they rate the lines at 150% of the posted strength ratings. Some manufacturers rate lines at a higher number than they post and others rate a lower number then they actually are.

Fix bridle kite lines are different from depower lines, being mostly that depower lines are supposed to float. At least they float when they are brand new. At least that's what I was told when I talk to the manufacturer's.

good stuff though, glad it got resurrected.




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[*] posted on 12-12-2013 at 09:28 PM


Quick note about line stretch. Q-power does stretch but it is so minimal that you will hardly ever notice when flying. Pre-stretching is done to take the "CREEP" out of the lines. Creep is what you get when the lines are brand new. When line manufacturers make up line, it is braided on a machine from many smaller fibers. This braid is drawn through a wheel that pulls the braid tight and then it is wound onto spools and shipped out, sometimes in spools as large as 5000' lengths or longer. It is extremely difficult for the manufacturer to pre-stretch a length of line this long so most don't bother doing so. Some manufacturers will draw the line through a pre-stretching machine but even that is usually not sufficient to take all the creep out of the lines.

So what is creep? Think of your line as a Chinese finger trap. When it is fresh from the factory the line is all bunched up and somewhat larger in diameter. When you pre-stretch the line, what you are doing is pulling the finger trap closed and tightening up the braid as tight as possible. This will actually grow the line as much as 10 inches or more over a 100' length (30 meters). Once the braid has been pulled tight, the line will usually not stretch out any more.

This is the reason that Q-Power claims that their lines do not stretch, but when you pre-stretch the lines you will see it grow quite a bit. You are not actually stretching the line, just tightening up the braid and taking the "creep" out of it. Every brand line that I have ever used or received has needed to be pre-stretched before using it. IMO, Q-Power is the best line for power kiting. I prefer Shanti for stunt kites.

Hope this helps understand a little.




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[*] posted on 12-13-2013 at 09:21 AM


To add abit of info to what Kent said about the roles or spools of line material.
Have you ever unrolled a new hose or a bit of electrical wire? You have the fun of untwisting all the twists. Whether it is string, rope, or even paper, it needs to be streached to some degree and held in place to even out the material.
I was skyping a guy in Germany yesterday and the topic of line material came up and he shared a little info with me. Something I didnt think of while doing my line tests. "We dont use the first 25% of a spool of line material".
In other words, the first part of the spool is wound so tight it is not able to spread out the tension equally and puts more load on one side of the line than the other. As the spools of line increase in size and length the material is not as tightly wound at the end as it is at the start.
This would explain why some lines break and others do not while being the same material from the same company, and why the numbers dont always make sense.
This doesnt mean anything unless you break a new lineset.




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[*] posted on 12-13-2013 at 11:21 PM


Great to see you back Jeff, and was glad to read you are feeling better, maybe a Marymoor Park session this winter :thumbup:

Good information on lines, thanks for sharing. I mentioned “unbraided” in my previous post and gave a picture of the parallel core fibers in the stress to failure. Attached is a picture of a section of Q-Powerline with the sleeving sliced open. As you can see the fibers are unbraided, which is actually preferred for strength inside the sleeving ( good site to read more about rope: http://www.animatedknots.com/rope2.php?LogoImage=LogoGrog.jpg&Website=www.animatedknots.com#hmpe “HMPE fibers dislike compression and kinking, and the rope is strongest when the fibers are almost parallel to the rope's axis.”).

The sleeving is strong and durable, but cut it and the weave unravels easily in your fingers. I suspect that sometimes the sleeving tightening then stretching (+perhaps weakening from bending) weakens it and the core spectra elongates more than the sleeving under high loads. This and/or mechanical abrasion starts a hole in the sleeving.

My decision to switch was due to the compromises from these holes in the sleeving and not knowing if/how it is protecting the core unbraided spectra. Instead of only advantages/disadvantages of 1 material (Spectra/Dyneema/HMPE) Q-PowerLine added a 2nd material (sleeving). This is fundamentally good if the 2nd material can improve your overall property needs/advantages, beyond of the disadvantages each/both (core + sleeve).

I found the disadvantage of adding the 2nd material (sleeving) is when it is damaged slightly it causes kinks/bump and the spectra core is hidden behind the sleeving. Then I cannot see the spectra to evaluate it. And if the core really was OK, I really don’t want to have sleeving repairs on my lines…(a whole other topic I’d guess).

For LEI kites the slightly heavier 800# (than 500#) braided line should work (like the slightly heavier Q-PowerLine did) and I can assess the damage to the 1 material type (just look at it). There should be more damage tolerance (than the 500#) too. For my land/foil kites I’ll continue to use the 500# braided as they seem more sensitive to weight/drag (and I like flying on longer 100’/30m lines).

Again, I got my expected life out of the Q-Powerlines. Gonna try these different 800# lines and I'll report back in a few years :P


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