Power Kite Forum

Yarga 5th line

yt35 - 1-6-2009 at 08:14 PM

Hey i bought a 11 m yarga and was wondering what you think of the fifth line. i have looked all over the net on how to install one and the best site blows any tutorials or thoughts on the 5th line

Kamikuza - 2-6-2009 at 12:53 AM

My Airush has a little tag on the center leading edge that the fifth line larS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s heads onto.
I've only used 1 other C-kite, a North (?) Rhino and that was way back when ... the leash went onto the LHS front line - I hated that. The 5th line is a great solution - release the safety and it's totally de-powered!

snobdr - 2-6-2009 at 09:31 AM

Its best to run fith line on a c kite. That is the safest way to fly them. What year is your yarga? From 2004 on there was a center loop. on 2004 it was for an inflation leash, from 2005 on it was made for the fith line. I personally ran the north fith element bar. This is a great bar with an excelent release( iorn heart)

yt35 - 2-6-2009 at 11:55 AM

it is a 2007 yarga. is the it the only way to reverse launch with a 5 th line

Kamikuza - 2-6-2009 at 06:25 PM

I got a Naish/North (?) Shift System bar ... I really like it but my experience is limited :D

snobdr - 3-6-2009 at 09:17 AM

YT you dont reverse launch inflatables. A quick explanation is you use the fith to roll the kite onto its back then pull an outside line to get the kite to the edge of the window, and slowly let the fith out and launch. Its not exact but gives you an idea.

If you havent flown inflatables before you might want to get instruction.

yt35 - 3-6-2009 at 10:59 AM

yes this is my first inflatable. I have a foil and it reverse launches super easy.

carltb - 3-6-2009 at 02:01 PM

machineguns in the hands of babies!!!!! i just hope you get a lesson or 2 before you venture on the water.

Bladerunner - 3-6-2009 at 05:45 PM

Take your time and understand fully what you are buying. I have lost a lot of money buying kites that didn't suit my needs and didn't re-sell well. C kites in particular ! C kites hold a place even today in kiteboarding ( on water ) but other styles are more forgiving + able to serve a wider range of uses.

Carltb says it well ! These are NOT a great beginer choice. No matter what. Try and take lessons if you are going out on water !

snobdr - 4-6-2009 at 09:26 AM

Explain to us exactly why A C kite is a bad beginners choice?

carltb - 4-6-2009 at 11:03 AM

because there are better beginner kites on the market. safer and more forgiving.

Bladerunner - 4-6-2009 at 03:21 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bladerunner
C kites hold a place even today in kiteboarding ( on water ) but other styles are more forgiving + able to serve a wider range of uses.


No one said they are BAD ? In the right hands !

snobdr - 4-6-2009 at 06:53 PM

they are as safe as any other kite on the market. there only downfall is limited depower.

carltb - 5-6-2009 at 02:58 PM

and thst is why there are safer kites out there. more depower = less chance o getting overpowered = safer to learn on. simple equation really.

Kamikuza - 5-6-2009 at 05:14 PM

... and that's why god made safety systems.
Learn to use your safety release, practice with it and don't be afraid to use it - limp kite, flapping down out of the sky may look uncool in front of your buddies, but it's better than injuries or death.
I really like the one on the Naish Shift bar - total depower :lol: and completely disconnected from the kite with the safety on the leash in less than a second.

Anyway, if you ain't crashing you ain't trying ;)

carltb - 6-6-2009 at 05:16 AM

i only crash when i push my limits and the differance is my limits are abit more advanced then a noob!!!!

PKF Edit: link removed

just a quick image of what can happen...........................................

Kamikuza - 6-6-2009 at 06:50 AM

5 line C-kite wouldn't have gotten that out of shape :tumble:

manitoulinkiter1 - 6-6-2009 at 07:27 AM

That video shows exactly why you should be able to activate your quick release in a hurry. It has nothing to do with any type of kite, when two get stuck together anything can happen.

John

Kamikuza - 6-6-2009 at 06:39 PM

Before there were bow and hybrids - what did the learners do for kites? :evil:

Bladerunner - 7-6-2009 at 08:51 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kamikuza
Before there were bow and hybrids - what did the learners do for kites? :evil:


On the water ?

2 line Wipika lei kites !

Now THAT is a BAD kite to learn on !

carltb - 7-6-2009 at 01:17 PM

im not saying a C is a bad kite but a bow or sle are better to learn on

Kamikuza - 7-6-2009 at 06:23 PM

Oh I remember one of the first times I got close to kitesurfing, dude had a Wipika ... looked like a giant flying diaper :o

snobdr - 8-6-2009 at 10:11 AM

Yet everyone learns on a fixed bridal kite with no depower and alot of you guys fly fixed bridal so why make a big deal about how much depower a kite has???

carltb - 8-6-2009 at 12:54 PM

obviously you know nothing. so im gunna end with, starting on a 3m fixed bridal on land is alot differant then a 11m C kite (a yarga in this case) on the water. get it wrong on a 3 and bumps and bruises get it wrong on the 11 and ambulances and caskets.!!!

yt35 - 8-6-2009 at 06:59 PM

well that is a little harsh seeing as your ending line is if you ain't crashing you ain't trying. Is there a lot of kiteboarding deaths in a year.

yt35 - 8-6-2009 at 07:01 PM

Oh and by the way the yarga is a hybrid and has tonnes of depower. I may be new to C kites but I do have a lot of big foils.

Kamikuza - 8-6-2009 at 08:46 PM

IMO a trainer kite's purpose is to teach people who to handle the kite. Once they can steer it around the sky without thinking about it then they're ready to have a bigger kite in their hands and learn to harness the power.
But I think to jump straight into a big kite without enough experience in handling is a mistake, no matter if it's foil, C, bow or hybrid. I guess though that if you have experience with the smaller ones then you're not a beginner, are you? :smilegrin:

I don't consider 4-line foils to be non-depower ... I reckon they depower more than depower kites do :D definitely think they are more controllable ...

Yarga is a C, is it not?

carltb - 9-6-2009 at 05:25 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by yt35
it is a 2007 yarga. is the it the only way to reverse launch with a 5 th line


all my comments came about because of this statement.........

obviously you havnt flown a c kite or had any lessons and think you can reverse launch a kite on the 5th line. it just shows to me that you need a totally differant kite then the yarga.
i dont know who sold you this kite but i can guess it wasnt a kite shop. most probably ebay special!!!!!!

anyway its your life and what happens in your country doesnt effect my beach , so go nuts. i suggest taking it out in 30+mph during a thunderstorm just to try it out. lol.:wee::wee:
snobdr can give you advice on this!!!!!!!!!!

carltb - 9-6-2009 at 05:34 AM

FROM THE BEST WEBSITE


I'm a beginner, new to the sport. What setup should I buy? What size kite and board would be best for me?
Do not buy anything before you've first taken a lesson, unless it is a small 2-line trainer kite and a trainer kite video, which you learn to use before your lesson. Lessons are extremely important, because there are are a lot of safty aspects to this sport and a lot of things to know before you get out on the water ... not just for your own safety, but for the safety of everyone around you.



Also, if you buy something now, without knowing ANYTHING about the sport, you will most likely make the mistake that many people new to the sport make: buying the wrong equipment, whether it's the wrong kite size for your weight and prevalent wind conditons, kite type, kite model, etc. Once you have a few lessons, your instructor will be able to recommend a good setup for you, and will take into consideration your weight, and the conditions in your area, and will help you come up with a working quiver.



A big mistake people make is buying equipment right away ... they see cheap deals on the internet somewhere or on E-bay, and not knowing anything about technological advances in the last couple of years, think, "A kite's a kite, how wrong can I be?" They can be VERY VERY wrong. With the introduction of bow kites, or SLE kites, in late 2005/early 2006, the sport and the industry has changed dramatically, and the last thing you want to do, as a first time beginner, is to purchase someone's old 4-line or 5-line C-kite, which has very little depowerability, and is not as user-friendly as the bow, or SLE, kites. Even if it looks like a great deal, stay away from purchasing a C-kite as your first kite ... your learning curve on bow kites will be much faster ... bows/SLES stay in the sky much easier, are generally easier to relaunch, have more depower, and are more forgiving than C-kites.



In the beginning, you'll want a larger board, which is easier to get up on, as it has more surface area and is easier to balance, but you also don't want to buy the largest board you can find, as you will quickly grow out of it. Take a lesson, ride your instructor's board, and see what feels right for you. You may still not have a feeling of what you need at that point, but your instructor will be able to give you some advice.



The best beginner kite in our lineup is currently the 08 Waroo. However, it is not a kite you will soon outgrow. As our best selling kite ever, it is enjoyed by beginners and pro riders alike.

snobdr - 9-6-2009 at 10:13 AM

Did best mention their #@%$#!ty safety on the waroo? My friend just lost her kite because of this. Wasnt even an emergency, just wanted to wind up kite, Pulled safety, it failed and kite relaunched uncontrolable, she had to pull second safety and bye bye kite.
Imagine that as a beginner, pull your safety get yanked around and have to release and see you hard earned cash go bye bye.

I learned on a 4 line c back in the day, i didnt get killed or hurt. I 5 line c may not be the best, but its not the worst either.

I was in hatteras and seen four times where people launched their bow/sle and almost took bystanders out because they were yanking in on the bar back stalling the kite into the middle of the window then letting it power up.

C kites are simple, dont have to worry as much about where the bar is.

Oh wait i spend 75% ot the time on waterand fly inflatables, i dont know what im talking about.

You should listen to Carltb im sure he has much more experence with this than I .
Quote:

I FLY PETER LYNN AND RIDE MBS. I GO BIG AND FLY HARD.

twinskins and mountainboards guess he knows everything about inflatables

Quote:

IF YOU AINT CRASHING YOU AINT TRYING!!

Yea ok.

kiteNH - 9-6-2009 at 10:32 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by snobdr
Yet everyone learns on a fixed bridal kite with no depower and alot of you guys fly fixed bridal so why make a big deal about how much depower a kite has???


A fixed bridle trainer and a 10+ meter inflatable aren't even slightly comparable except for the fact that they are both kites.

What exactly is your point here? Do you just want people to agree that it is okay to learn on C kites? Fine, you said that you learned on C kites. You lived. So I guess its okay.

Or do you think that C kites are best to learn on (better than bows or SLE's)? Is that your point?

Or are you just a troll picking fights on another guy's thread because that's what you're really here for?

carltb - 9-6-2009 at 10:44 AM

i vote for troll!!!!!!!!!!

and ive decided not to feed him anymore!

snobdr - 9-6-2009 at 01:45 PM

First off a 10m on water might as well be a trainer. I use a 9m for my high wind kite 25+. In average winds 15-20 you would have to be on a surfboard unless you weigh 125.

My point Yes you can learn on a c kite.

I never said they were the best to learn on, I never said they were better then a bow or sle. They are just not as bad as you guys make them out to be.

Most of my kiting experence is on the water. So i think my advice is valid. They guy bought a c kite. he can learn on it. He has kite experence on foils, most of which are probably fixed bridal so why would this be any different? He probably got it for much less then a bow or sle. So why not. hes learning, the kite will probably take a beating anyway so why spend the cash?

How much experence on water do you both have? How much experence flying LEIs? I dont jump in on foil kite threads because i dont have as much experence on them.

When anyone on this forum voices an opinion that is different that what you guys think they are picking a fight and are a troll.

kiteNH - 9-6-2009 at 05:39 PM

I actually just didn't really understand what your position was, but I gotcha now. I have very little inflatable experience. I just thought the FB trainer vs inflatable kite comparison was a bit of a stretch. But I don't have any opinion on the c vs. sle thing.

I've got no problems with opinions or arguments. I just didn't get what yours was and it sounded like you were just stirring it up. Plus hijacking the guy's post. No problem.

End of [my] hijack here.

Kamikuza - 9-6-2009 at 06:24 PM

I think the problem is, he bought a C-kite and thinks it a hybrid and some people are worried that his lack of experience will f**k him up and said a C-kite is #@%$#! to learn on and some people disagreed. I disagree too but have no experience other than my own to back it up ...

I'd rather learn on my big fat lazy C than on any of my rabid foils :ninja: I bought the cheapest kite for the water I could, so that when I smash it up I don't cry :lol:

And from a newbie POV, the 5th line safety is very impressive ... my advice is get it installed, set it up and practice how to use it till it's second nature.

yt35 - 9-6-2009 at 07:15 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by carltb
Quote:
Originally posted by yt35
it is a 2007 yarga. is the it the only way to reverse launch with a 5 th line


all my comments came about because of this statement.........

obviously you havnt flown a c kite or had any lessons and think you can reverse launch a kite on the 5th line. it just shows to me that you need a totally differant kite then the yarga.
i dont know who sold you this kite but i can guess it wasnt a kite shop. most probably ebay special!!!!!!
anyway its your life and what happens in your country doesnt effect my beach , so go nuts. i suggest taking it out in 30+mph during a thunderstorm just to try it out. lol.:wee::wee:
snobdr can give you advice on this!!!!!!!!!!







YES I am glad that you can interpret my question and tell me what i need, thank you. I need a totally DIFFERENT kite. And yes it was an Ebay special and not a specialized kite shop. Whatever.

I can tell by your helpful comments and your bad spelling that you are very young and offering very little help to those asking. SO, I suggest that if you have no constructive comments to add, keep it to yourself.

BeamerBob - 9-6-2009 at 07:47 PM

:puzzled: Wow. I don't have a horse in this race at all, but after all the posts on this, I figured I should come see just how much can be said about this yarga 5th line thing. I didn't know there was a brawl going on. :wow:

It seems from my perspective that the whole bunch here is at least partially right.
This probably isn't the best kite for yt35 to learn on.
C kites aren't the best kites to learn on for water activities.
yt probably ought to get some lessons either formal or informal before he heads out on the water.
yt probably could mush through the learning process on this kite but it will likely take longer and he could hurt himself or someone else.
Isn't this what everyone is saying?

So yt35, can you find a way to get some lessons and some professional advice on your kite? Maybe you can learn on something else and get someone that knows about this type kite to help you safely get some use out of it. You probably need another kite to get you to the point where you can safely ENJOY your yarga. This probably isn't the best kite to go pump it up and just figure things out as you go.

snobdr - 10-6-2009 at 09:33 AM

Getting lessons before going into the water is a must do. At the least from a fellow kiter who knows what hes doing.


Quote:

yt probably could mush through the learning process on this kite but it will likely take longer and he could hurt himself or someone else


This is what gets me going. There is no reason to say he could hurt himself or someone else because of the kite. He has the chance of that on any kite.

YT Get lessons or at least get with another kiter. Dont be discouraged buy what is said on this form. I used to fly the yargas and the are a great kite.

Does your yarga have a bridal attached to it. I would probably try to run it with the bridal and 5th line. Best site says the fith line was a kit, you might want to call and ask them, i would bet the kit is just the fith line itself you would just have to attach to kite. Running the SLE bridal and fith line give you the best of both worlds, Maximum depower for the kite and fith line safety.
Best has the manual on this kite on their website.
Also what bar are you using?

BeamerBob - 10-6-2009 at 10:11 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by snobdr

Quote:

yt probably could mush through the learning process on this kite but it will likely take longer and he could hurt himself or someone else


This is what gets me going. There is no reason to say he could hurt himself or someone else because of the kite. He has the chance of that on any kite.



Snobdr, you disagree with everyone I've ever heard mention a "C" kite with respect to learning to kiteboard. That is the reason I say he is more likely to hurt himself with a kite that depowers less. It is not an absolute thing, it is relative. Yes, you can hurt yourself or someone else with any kite, but conventional wisdom says the chances are greater if an inexperienced pilot is learning with an inflatable kite that has less depower than other inflatable kites that have more. Are there any schools out there using C kites for teaching beginners? That would certainly help you back up your stand here, which with your penchant for safety really puzzles me.

The bottom line here is to give yt35 some good sound advice that will help him progress on the best path possible. Getting lessons seems to be something everyone agrees on.

snobdr - 11-6-2009 at 07:09 AM

How much time do u have in the water Bob? Any personal experence with a c-kite? Ever fly a yarga? do you know anything about the 07 yargas? Are you speaking out of experence or out your bottom end?

BeamerBob - 11-6-2009 at 07:57 AM

I stated in my post that I was speaking from what I had learned from many others whose experience and opinion I trust. I have several friends that had been into kiteboarding before I got my first 4 line kite that told me their horror stories about why they don't fly "C" kites anymore. They then referenced the low prices that could be found on them because the technology had improved significantly making learning easier and safer with the newer bow kites (among other designs) so throngs of people were dumping their C kites on the market. I made no delusional comments indicating I myself was expert. So maybe now I've circumvented your attempt to discredit my personal experience with C kites by saying I have none. My point was that your opinion is in opposition with ALL of them. These are both local and not so local personal contacts as well as way too many hours scouring forums to learn all I can about this fine sport. I won't resort to personal attacks to help make my point in a discussion. I'm merely pointing out that your opinion is very different from everything I've learned these past few years. Can we make this discussion about the kites instead of each other? This topic was started by YT35 and should be about helping him move forward safely and effectively.

snobdr - 11-6-2009 at 09:20 AM

So all you can talk about is heresay. I have heard horror stories about c kites also, and i have heard horror stories on other kites as well.
They are not the BEST KIT TO LEARN but that does not mean its the worst either.
If he takes his time, gets some lessons/help he can learn on this kite just as easy.
This is a hybrid c kite, it has more depower then a standard c, almost as much as some SLE kites as it uses an SLE bridal
Many of us learned on c kites, we are not superheros, its not that hard. Lesson centers get new kites almost every year. They get the best of the best. Does that mean we need the best to learn on. NO

Depower isnt that much of a factor, Many land dwellers fly fixed bridal( no Depower), Why dosent everyone switch to depower kites if its the only safe way to go?

You want to help YT stop making him feel like hes got junk that will get him hurt.
IM done with this, YT you want help with it U2U me ill do the best i can to get you going.

yt35 - 11-6-2009 at 12:34 PM

thanks man, i appreciate your input.

tridude - 11-6-2009 at 04:25 PM

We've chewed this fat before to no avail............................like they say opinions are like a** holes...........everybodys got one and it stinks 30 minutes after you wash it........................:lol::lol::duh::duh:

tridude - 11-6-2009 at 04:27 PM

Snob you alwayyz run when the heat turns on................................If you cant take the heat shut your hole:lol::lol::duh::duh:

carltb - 12-6-2009 at 02:16 AM

didnt you know that we live in snob world and his word is law!!!

ps i also learnt on C's, but i now dont use them. i am also not a kid but thanks for the compliment. ive been kiting for many many years and people who know me tend to agree that i know what im talking about (re kites)

oh yeah an arc has more in common with a C then a bow.

and my comment still stands re yt35 if you dont want to take good advice then dont ask for it. there is only 1 person recommending that you use your yarga to learn on, doesnt that tell you something?

anyway, good winds

flysafe
and get some lessons

snobdr - 12-6-2009 at 07:58 AM

Whatever!!

None of you have flown the 07 yarga so .......Dont talk about the flavor if you havent chewed the bubblegum.

carltb - 12-6-2009 at 08:15 AM

ive flown most kites being a shop rider and all so im sure the yarga was in there somewhere. oh btw it tasted of strawberry!!!!

snobdr - 12-6-2009 at 08:43 AM

Oh so sorry, carl you must be the man. Tell us then, how does the 07 differ from an older yarga? what size did you fly? Did you fly it in both configurations? SLE and non SLE? How much difference in depower was there in each configuration? How did it handle on the water in both configurations? IM sure you can tell us all about it, as being a shop rider i know you gave it a good demo session.

carltb - 12-6-2009 at 11:19 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by snobdr
Oh so sorry, carl you must be the man.

i accept your apology.

snobdr - 12-6-2009 at 01:44 PM

Come on now,you say you flew the kite fill us in?

tridude - 12-6-2009 at 02:37 PM

I tried to tell ya'll...............................................:lol::lol::duh::duh:

tridude - 12-6-2009 at 02:41 PM

snob, honestly you're like a one legged man in an ass kickin contest...................just go away..........................:lol::lol::duh::duh:

snobdr - 12-6-2009 at 05:36 PM

Quote:

We've chewed this fat before to no avail............................like they say opinions are like a** holes...........everybodys got one and it stinks 30 minutes after you wash it........................



Quote:

Snob you alwayyz run when the heat turns on................................If you cant take the heat shut your hole



Quote:

I tried to tell ya'll...............................................



Quote:

snob, honestly you're like a one legged man in an ass kickin contest...................just go away..........................


Tridude you seem to have nothing to add at all so why dont you go away.

Everyone is saying the guy will have problems learning on this kite. This is based on "he said this, they said that" No one here has any experence with the kite, well except Carl says he has flown one, but dosent have any opinion on it at all and cant answer any questions it.
Not to mention most of you dont have any water experence at all or very limited experence.

Why can people fly non depower kites on land but yet you must have depower on water?


Quote:

im not saying a C is a bad kite but a bow or sle are better to learn on


Oh wait if you actually flew the kite then you would know that this kite can be flown as an SLE. It comes with an SLE bridal which extends the depower range of this kite.

None of you have made any valid arguement of why he cant learn on this kite. SURE he could have paid more money and got a kite more suited for a beginner. YES there are kites out there that are suited to a Beginner. He dosent have one of them. He wants help with what he has. With the 5th line this kite is as safe as anything out there. And he will be able to learn with this kite.

tridude - 12-6-2009 at 06:03 PM

actually I have alot to contribute but you're another story......your ninja mind games wont work here young grasshopper but anytime you'd like to meet up for a little one on one counseling Ill be more than happy to contribute..............warning.....................your chances of success are slim, very slim............................glad to be here proud to serve.................:lol::lol::duh::duh:

snobdr - 12-6-2009 at 06:23 PM

Quote:

actually I have alot to contribute


Hmmmmmmm i listed you posts on this topic above. Looks like you have contributed NOTHING.


Quote:

but anytime you'd like to meet up for a little one on one counseling Ill be more than happy to contribute..............warning.....................your chances of success are slim, very slim..


And were reduced to making childish threats.]

tridude - 12-6-2009 at 06:38 PM

no threats just promises.............................again you're way out of your league.................
:lol::lol::duh::duh:

tridude - 12-6-2009 at 06:39 PM

you're def worth a ban.....................................:lol::lol::duh::duh:

snobdr - 12-6-2009 at 07:23 PM

tridud your a joke.

you come on this thread, add nothing, just attack me

And im the one who should be baned?

carltb - 13-6-2009 at 03:07 AM

havnt you got a bridge to go play under!!!!!:lol::lol::lol:

carltb - 13-6-2009 at 03:36 AM

just have a little read of this.... http://www.kiteforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2357416

Bladerunner - 13-6-2009 at 07:55 AM

WOW,

That is sad.
I just started a new job and my new work mate knew nothing about kiting accept for Kiter Kevin and the other deaths he has heard about.

For what it is worth. I have HUGE respect for the people on this forum that ride fixed bridle on the water. I have told them so.

I think we can ALL agree that C-kites aren't all bad. That any kite can kill if it isn't respected and LESSONS RULE !!!!!

Can we put this to bed now ?

snobdr - 13-6-2009 at 07:55 AM

What does that have to do with anything Carl? I can post reports of accidents with bow kites. Maybe this will clear things up.
From Realkiteboarding on the 07 yarga.


Quote:

REAL's Zack Johnson learned to kite from the rank beginner level up through riding the ocean in head high days, all on the Yarga, in just 3 months time ! "The Yarga works awesome in the surf. The kite is very responsive and stable. The kite turns and relaunches in a snap. Depower is always there when I need it. Using the bridled set up, the Yarga has made learning to kite in the surf a breeze!" Zack is the perfect example of how versatile and user friendly the new Best Yarga is !


This must be a fluke. The guy learned and progressed to wave riding in 3 months. All on a yarga.


Quote:

The Yarga is the perfect kite for beginners who don't want to be held back by their gear. When learning to kiteboard, the most important features in a kite include water relaunch, light bar pressure and smooth control. These features are readily available when operating the Yarga on its bridle. As riders develop their own style and ride more aggressively, the fast turning speed, strong power delivery and positive feel offered by the non-bridled configuration will allow them to progress beyond the boundaries of the bow kite.


What? I must be reading it wrong. Did they just say its a good kite for beginners.
And wait most important features in a kite when learning
water relaunch bar pressure and smooth control. I didnt see the word depower anywhere in there.
This all coming from one of the premier kite lesson centers in the U.S.

So its saying its a good beginners choice and will advance past the limitations of a bow. Looks like YT made a good choice dosent it?

I think im done here.

carltb - 13-6-2009 at 08:23 AM

you were done long before this thread!!!!

carltb - 13-6-2009 at 08:28 AM

winning an online argument is like swimming in #@%$#!. its possible but who really wants to do it.

so i give in. you are the fountain of all knowledge snob.

snobdr - 13-6-2009 at 08:41 AM

whatever.