Power Kite Forum - Moving from fixed bridle to depower (to overcome wet sand/rain!)

Moving from fixed bridle to depower (to overcome wet sand/rain!)

72hundred - 17-7-2019 at 10:56 AM

Hi,

For years, I've used fixed bridle kites but I'm growing a little tried of loosing whole sessions when the kite touches down on part of the sand that isn't completely dry (large areas on my beach). Generally these touch downs are not planned and might be for a variety of reasons - driver error being the majority!

So I am thinking of getting a harness, lines and depower kite for the buggy. As I understand it de-power kites are inflated and are resistant to getting wet - being used on the water and all. The other advantage would be that rain wouldn't kill the kite - which has happened too in the past.

I'm not ever going to be racing, I just want something that I can but up and get 1-2 hours of fun out of (and speed) in winds around 4-6 Beaufort.

I've read this description of the differences and I'm happy enough to live with the disadvantages for a trial at least;

https://powerkiteuk.com/blogs/power-kite-news/whats-the-diff...

Although something on the more responsive end of depower kites might be nice and it would be similar to what I'm used to.

So my question is what should I get? Price wise I'm happy to treat myself if it fits the bill.

I've enjoyed my Peter Lynn a lot in the past should I get something like this? - https://powerkiteshop.com/peter-lynn-aero.htm And if so what size?

Many thanks in advance!

72hundred - 17-7-2019 at 12:19 PM

Meant to mention - I have already a "Peter Lynn Kiteboarding Divine Buggy Seat" - i presume that could be used with a depower kite too?

72hundred - 17-7-2019 at 01:25 PM

Just figuring out that the kites I'm looking at are closed cell foils as opposed to LEI kites.

LEI's would be more resistant to wet sand and rain? Am I wrong in this idea?

Windstruck - 17-7-2019 at 01:36 PM

Closed cell, twin skins, standard foils, LEIs, etc. all have the potential to blow out when pile driven into the hard ground. All manner of single skin kites generally don't have this problem. A wet SS can often be relaunched and dry in the air if, for example, you give it a dip in a tide pool, but they too will become a sodden mess in a driving rain just like their double skin brothers.

replying to thread is acting very strange!! Trying to post reply now

72hundred - 17-7-2019 at 02:06 PM

Another option?

72hundred - 17-7-2019 at 02:09 PM

Another option?

72hundred - 17-7-2019 at 02:38 PM

Thanks Windstruck, I do try avoid the pile driving into the sand with all these expensive things!

Having a look around websites here of the brands I know from fixed bridals Ozone, Peter Lynn etc. - https://www.thekiteboarder.com/2018/03/tkb-review-2018-ozone... a better option?

Two things catch my eye on the possible negative end of the spectrum; slow turns (a class effect maybe?) and soars like a paraglider! Generally I try stay in the buggy! I presume though that this is just traction? And it could be used for speed for the kite buggy? Or is it a top of window only phenomenon - that would be pretty useless for tearing down a beach in a buggy?

pbc - 17-7-2019 at 05:09 PM

Every kite gets heavier when it's wet. Every wet kite is at risk of picking up sand when it touches down--unless it is flying over water. Every kite flies worse when heavier. I think the advantage you might get from an LEI or closed-cell foil is that it holds inflation and shape on the ground. Open cell kites can deflate a lot when landed or crashed, but LEI and closed cell won't.

As to rain, the rule is never land for rain. Land for thunderstorms and land for excess wind and lands if you need a break, but don't land for rain. Instead, keep flying and keep moving. If you stop the buggy you might lose the apparent wind you need to keep your heavier-than-it-was-dry kite in the air. This applies to FB, closed cell, whatever.

For me, the best reason to switch to depower is the increased wind range. You have less need to swap out gear because your kite size is wrong. When it's pulling like a truck, just change the trim to ease the load. It's quick and easy. When I flew FB I was more inclined to keep flying the kite that was in the air even though it was generating more load than I wanted. That's not so smart. Am I smarter now or do I just fly gear that lets me fly safer? Maybe both?

Depower also let's you change trim for tacks and jibes. It's more fun than getting dragged sideways when you don't want to. You say you don't race, but it might you want to be more performant when you are playing? When you side-slip you lose speed. Depower gives you more control over that side load so you don't have to slip if you don't want to. It makes it easier to keep up with your buds, your homies, your blokes.

72hundred - 18-7-2019 at 03:06 AM

Thanks for the tips.

I think I'm going to invest, nice to have a new toy, but still a few variables to sort out;

1) The Kite. Edge V9 by Ozone seems a main stream choice that should be OK. Anything else I should consider? https://ozonekites.com/products/water-kites/edge-v9/ I'll probably get it with the bar to go with it.

2) Size of kite? I'm looking for something with good pull, I'm happy with speeds of 50-60kph sustained in the buggy and generally where i fly is a Beaufort 5 with gusts to 6. Good amount of time below those speeds too. I was thinking a 7m Edge to start with and maybe later if it works out get a bigger kite near the 13m mark for low wind days. Also the charts on the websites I presume are for water based? So should therefore assume that sand in a buggy would require less kite than water?

3) Harness - as mentioned above I've a Divine Buggy Seat already but it looks like I'll need another type/bar for depower.

So should I get a seat one; https://powerkiteshop.com/mystic-driver-harness.htm or https://powerkiteshop.com/dakine-harness-fusion-seat.htm ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2Yyi7TTUmA )
or a seat/back hybrid one; https://powerkiteshop.com/mystic-star-hybrid-harness.htm
or just a new bar and attach it the Divine; https://powerkiteshop.com/mystic-banana-kite-spreader-bar.ht...

The only issue I can see with the new bar option and the seat/back hybrid is that it wouldn't have that attachment point across the back for the leash, although a bit of google suggests you can attach the leash pretty much anywhere - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcQHhuJzO9Q

RedSky - 18-7-2019 at 04:39 AM

I was in the same boat as you, mostly riding beaches with standing water. Not the most forgiving environment for foils with their delicate skins and fine intricate bridles.
LEI's are made of stronger stuff of course. The beach is where you'll find them. Built to withstand the salty air, the harsh exfoliation of sand and the occasional good slam. This is their environment.

I once borrowed a friends 4m Ozone Access and instantly felt the benefits of depower. I was sold on the idea and made the switch to LEI's back in 2009 after 10 years flying fb race kites. It was a great decision.
Totally transformed my riding and interest in buggying.

Looking back, fixed bridled kites always made me feel nervous. Like tethered to a wild horse. At any moment it could rear up and start galloping across the field with me frantically pulling on the reigns with little affect.
I felt like a passenger for the most part rather than someone in control. The lack of confidence held me back for the longest time. This is why I have a ton of respect for guys who still chose to fly them today.

The LEI is a gentle giant. Provides a great surge of power on demand, yet accessible through the smooth progressive use of the bar, perfect for both fast cruising or slow pottering about, from negotiating obstacles and rough terrain, and should you get out of your comfort zone, no problem, simply let go.

The best thing about LEI's for me, and something I didn't realise or appreciate at the time are the benefits of shape retention in all conditions including strong gusts which inspire the confidence to push things much further than you would otherwise have allowed.

If you're a solo flyer like me then tethered launching and landings are the way to go.

Having the kite sit up on its wing tip at the edge of the window without the need for any rider input is a big bonus. I use a heavy duty screw stake, one specifically made for kitesurfing. It drives deep into the sand and has a cabrina to hold the chicken loop. You just lower the kite down at the edge of the window, unhook from the kite, hook the loop straight onto the cabrina and walk away, have a drink, have a piss, fix your camera, whatever. When you're ready to launch just hook back in and raise the kite. Nothing could be easier. You can do it one handed even in high wind. Actually using one hand in high wind is preferable because you need to utilize the extra bar throw.

An 8m LEI should cover your 4-6 Beaufort range well and depending on your surface, reach a potential top speed of about 55 mph (88 kph ) fairly swiftly. Kiss 50-60kph goodbye.

C kites are the best fun but won't tether launch. C hybrids such as your Ozone Edge should behave much better but you'd better ask. Plummet on Extreme Kites should be able to help there. I know he raves about them in the bug.
And stay away from thin LE designs supported by a 5th line as I've known them to fold in half under extreme loading, such as when down-looping from standstill in a heavy bug.

Look at a bridled LEI geared towards race/speed, with more struts not less. I'm out of touch with what is available these days as I have chosen to stick with just one brand for the past 6 years. Others can provide better up to date information.

In answer to your questions: I'm not a kiteboarder but I'm lead to believe that those guys can hold more power ( larger kite ) on water due to the resistance of the board. This doesn't bare out at my local spot though.

Harness with hook is required. If you can attach one then all the better.

Get new bar and lines.

Concerning the leash. Get a kite that doesn't require a leash. Mine does not. And its good practice to never attach to the back of a harness anyway. You can be pulled backwards down the beach with the controls out of reach. Many have died in the water trying. The leash if you need one goes on the spreader bar, usually the hook.

If I had the money I'd buy a Cabrinha Switchblade.

abkayak - 18-7-2019 at 05:02 AM

lot of good info here...wish i was disciplined enough to think about what we do, let alone write it down
best thing you can do is try someone else's stuff before you buy something new
but...the heart wants what the heart wants we all know that

jeffnyc - 18-7-2019 at 07:22 AM

I'm not sure why you would need a new harness? The PL Divine has a spreader bar with a hook, right? doesn't seem like a lot of padding though, will the PL be too thin for the loads? Though don't let me stop you from getting new equipment, I love my Ride Engine :D

As far as leash attachment, RedSky is exactly correct - never attach to the back of the harness. That's for rad dudes doing handle passes. Attaching directly to the hook can also interfere with the chicken loop, best to have a dedicated ring somewhere on the front. Been some discussion on another site about this vid:

Generally, you do need more power on water. RedSky doesn't notice a difference because he's a mad man. Mere mortals would be using smaller kites on land than he does, and flying in waaaaay less wind :D

C kites are generally harder to work with and relaunch than hybrids. Best scam on the internet is to sell your 20 year old C to an unsuspecting noob. Like anything, you would probably get used to it, but I think you'll have a much easier time with a standard LEI. Pretty much any recent LEI from any of the top brands will work great, go with RS rec for 3-5 struts. The 1/no strut versions are for wave riding and light wind.

Can't post reply for some reason - but thanks! Will post when figure out what problem is

72hundred - 18-7-2019 at 01:01 PM

jeffnyc - 18-7-2019 at 01:27 PM

If you're posting from iOS, you need to turn off "Smart Punctuation" in Settings > General > Keyboard
This forum uses ancient Babylonian software that can't handle modern conveniences like curly quotes.

thanks, but still can't post. I've taken all the unusual characters out of it. I'll post as a pic!!!

72hundred - 19-7-2019 at 03:30 AM

72hundred - 19-7-2019 at 03:36 AM

If any one can see the offending formatting there please let me know and I'll post it correctly - I have it as .doc here with me!

Wind_dog - 19-7-2019 at 07:46 AM

I would guess it is the intended apostrophe in LEI apstrophe s.

jeffnyc - 19-7-2019 at 08:26 AM

Wind_dog is correct, you have to change or kill your apostrophes.

What platform are you typing from?

It's a pain to clean up every character (sometimes there's invisible stuff that gets missed). You can try to run it through something like this: https://www.ubertoolz.com/demo/CleanUp.php

The general idea is to not use "smart quotes" (curly quotes) or any other character outside of standard ascii.

72hundred - 19-7-2019 at 09:27 AM

Hi RedSky,
Very detailed reply. Nice to meet someone who knows the trouble of wet sand!
Your view on FB's is interesting and their wild horse nature - I would have to agree that at times it can be unnerving. I must say I am interested in giving LEI's a go after you transformative experience with them.
Yes! I probably will be a solo flyer for the vast majority of trips to the beach. Do you have a pic or link of the heavy duty screw that you use?
Thanks re size recommendation - will go for a 8m size. 88kph sounds good.
So just to check is the Edge a hybrid? And can it launch from tethered? I Extreme Kites a forum?
Any particular reason for the Cabrinha Switchblade?

Hi abkayak,
Unfortunately not a huge community over here. I'm open to all suggestions so the heart wants what's best and the budget can move to accommodate same! (Very early Christmas present maybe)

Hi jeffnyc,
I've modified mine - with a pulley and QR, although not a AQR never got around to making it automatic - but in truth I usually just fly with out it.
Thanks, re the advice re back attachment. That video is slightly terrifying! But it makes the point well and I'll recall same going forward = front attach point.

So, to summarise, correct me if I'm wrong; I need a mutlistrut LEI kite, that is not a classic C, more a hybrid kite which should be most of the modern stuff? Therefore, it will be possible to solo fly a hybrid, with the sand screw.

72hundred - 19-7-2019 at 10:02 AM

Finally!!!! The post goes up - thanks for link worked well jeffnyc. No joke about that Babylonian software :o

RedSky - 19-7-2019 at 10:30 PM

Here's the KiteLaunchTool. It's 24 inches tall and no longer available.

If you can get past the language barrier then there's an alternative from Holland here > http://www.advertentiex.nl/ad-zomeraktie-beechlock-kite-laun...
Failing that, just buy a length of rope with a carabiner and tie it off to something immovable on the beach like a gryone or even your car.

Here's a link to the boys down under. https://www.extremekites.com.au/ Plummet.

I have to admit I excited for you. Its not every day someone buys an LEI to pull a buggy. You'll be in a minority that's for sure.

The Edge sounds like the ultimate speed demon! I think you've convinced me, but on paper seem to have a narrow wind range.

The modern Switchblade is more or less identical ranges in segments of 10mph and I'm starting to wonder if this is just a marketing ploy to sell us more kites. I have a suspicion that those wind ranges can be extended beyond what they're telling us.
Its the bottom end of those ranges that will be of interest to you, you need to get moving after-all, so only you can decide on size. The rest of that range can be depowered and trimmed off. Just be mindful that when you go looking through the stats of which ever kite you decide on, that all quoted numbers will be in knots.

I mentioned the Switchblade because I've owned a lot of Cabrinha gear over the years and so I'm a bit biased towards them. The Switchblade however is responsible for setting a new speed record on ice at over 70 mph. A crazy Canadian guy on ski's if memory serves.

Cabrinha pioneered the way with fail safe systems with easy flight dynamics that also gave great performance. Since then most manufacturers have caught up and offer the same but Cabrinha still lead the way and are highly regarded.

I cannot find a video that demonstrates the Edge being tethered but in my opinion it's not something that would cause me any concern.
Here's a good demo of a tethered launch/ landing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzcWbP28P5Y&t=180s

These days, most modern kites are a hybrid of something or other, and a C hybrid is more of a marketing term / gimmick than anything else.

Damn it man! You should never had started a thread about LEI's. I can't stop.

72hundred - 20-7-2019 at 10:12 AM

Hah RedSky,

Yea, I am getting excited for this too now. Funnily I got an email today with 25% off Cabrinha's from a UK store that I order nearly all my stuff from. Must be a sign!!!

Your mention of easy flight dynamics has me very interested in the Switchblade, as just today I was out with the Yakuza GT on the buggy which was unflyable initially (Bf 4 with lulls), then the winds moved up to about 5 Bf and it was insanely fast, way too much power at time, with a near OBE.

The difference is hard to describe (although I'm sure yea are familiar with it) and literally was just a few more knots of wind. So although, when it is in good form it is unbelievably fast, I would describe it as a very "brittle" kite, either dying when the winds slow slightly or high power and extreme high traction when the winds are good (and only slightly faster).

What I am hoping is that a LEI will allow me more resistance to wet beaches firstly, but also more resistance to lulls in wind and gusts too. That to me would be the perfect kite and well worth the cost!

My range is Bf 4-6 (11-27knots), if I'm ordering this would 9m be a good point to go with? At least then have it for the low speeds and can not power up too much? Later for the really good winds I could always go with a 4 or 5m.

Also the Switchblade can flown solo? And is forgiving for same?

anchor options

tomdiving - 20-7-2019 at 11:25 AM

a very quick search returned this - https://www.amazon.com/sand-anchors/s?k=sand+anchors

RedSky - 20-7-2019 at 07:22 PM

Quote: Originally posted by tomdiving

a very quick search returned this - https://www.amazon.com/sand-anchors/s?k=sand+anchors

Great link. I tried looking for an hour or more last night and found almost nothing. My pick of the bunch https://www.amazon.com/Heavy-Duty-Anchor-Piece-Solid/dp/B007...

Quote: Originally posted by 72hundred

Hah RedSky,

Yea, I am getting excited for this too now. Funnily I got an email today with 25% off Cabrinha's from a UK store that I order nearly all my stuff from. Must be a sign!!!

Your mention of easy flight dynamics has me very interested in the Switchblade, as just today I was out with the Yakuza GT on the buggy which was unflyable initially (Bf 4 with lulls), then the winds moved up to about 5 Bf and it was insanely fast, way too much power at time, with a near OBE.

The difference is hard to describe (although I'm sure yea are familiar with it) and literally was just a few more knots of wind. So although, when it is in good form it is unbelievably fast, I would describe it as a very "brittle" kite, either dying when the winds slow slightly or high power and extreme high traction when the winds are good (and only slightly faster).

What I am hoping is that a LEI will allow me more resistance to wet beaches firstly, but also more resistance to lulls in wind and gusts too. That to me would be the perfect kite and well worth the cost!

My range is Bf 4-6 (11-27knots), if I'm ordering this would 9m be a good point to go with? At least then have it for the low speeds and can not power up too much? Later for the really good winds I could always go with a 4 or 5m.

Also the Switchblade can flown solo? And is forgiving for same?

You went riding today, you tease. Don't forget to post up in the 'What did you do with your kite today?' thread for those staved of a session. OBE's, another reason to go depower.

Yes I vaguely remember the 'all or nothing days'. ^pbc' experience mirrors mine and he describes it perfectly about having to constantly swap out gear.

To put your mind at rest regarding wet sand, rain and high wind, here's a video of a 7m Cabrinha Crossbow that I used during a storm with horizontal rain and gusts hitting 70 mph (112 kph), 30 mph beyond its designed wind range. I do not recommend going beyond the manufactures limits, but if you have faith in the gear, it does demonstrate some flexibility of range at the top end.

https://vimeo.com/28849208

The Crossbow is no longer in production but its DNA lives on in the Switchblade.

pbc alluded to an LEI's shape holding nature. This will benefit you when those lulls hit and the lines go slack by giving you more time to recover from stalls. Normally by initiating a downloop.

It's really hard to give advice on size. Its your hard earn't money and they cost a small fortune but I think you are right. I feel you'll get more time under a 9m and still be reaching 50mph in favorable winds once you get to grips with it. These new Switchblades have 3 power settings on the back line pigtails giving you more flexibility there too.

Yes the Switchblade is a solo flyers dream and is probably the safest kite out there. You really can't go wrong but I do encourage you to get more opinions before parting with your monies. I'm just one guy and I'm not up to date on all the latest gear. As Jeffnyc correctly points out, pretty much any recent LEI from any of the top brands will work great.

You are in the UK? Me too, London SE. I have used King Of Water Sports in the past, they are trusted and always seem to hold a lot in stock.

72hundred - 21-7-2019 at 07:37 AM

Thanks RedSky,

No photos I'm afraid. That video is rather insane, don't think I'll ever likely want to go that fast.

Thanks re Switchblade advice, sounds like it is ticking a lot of boxes, solo flyable and safe being the main too, speed obviously after that as a priority! I've started a thread over on Extreme Kites - just waiting for it to be approved.

I'm based in ireland, so similar weather! Windy :D and wet :barf:

I'll have a check around for prices if I do end up investing.

doneski - 21-7-2019 at 11:51 AM

I'd avoid screw-in anchors. I had a foil kite anchored to one with the kite flagged out and sand on top. A gust sent the kite to zenith, it pulled out of the sand and was just heavy enough to keep the kite vertical while it floated away. I ran after it for about 2 hundred yards, got wet, got laughed at and just grabbed it before it was lost forever over the ocean. I use light thin stakes now at the beach and 2 ice screws on the ice.

72hundred - 23-7-2019 at 02:15 PM

Hi doneski,

What kind of stake to you use now? And what type failed on you? Some of those solid metal ones posted above do look very good.

TEDWESLEY - 24-7-2019 at 07:47 AM

There's not much more intimidating than a sand or ice screw flailing away on the end of 20m of kite line!

Bladerunner - 24-7-2019 at 08:32 AM

When I am concerned I use a seond stake for my safety line.

jeffnyc - 24-7-2019 at 09:34 AM

Ikea bag filled with sand, buried with handles sticking out. If it does manage to take off, the weight is more than enough to just drag, rather than poke eyes out.

PKF makes a purpose built anchor that is close to the same idea:

I have the PKF one, but I've never used it. Some sort of small shovel would be good to have for either of those if sand is hard. The few times I've self launched LEI I've either hooked to logs, or used the kite drag method. Winds have been moderate, I would definitely tether if winds were high.

RedSky - 24-7-2019 at 02:39 PM

The sand screw I use is regularly tested to 50+ knots using an 8m kite and nothing short of a bulldozer will pull it out. Flying solo you cannot afford mistakes or equipment failure. Just be sure to screw all 24 inches into the sand and you'll be fine.

72hundred - 25-7-2019 at 02:17 PM

Thanks all for the suggestions.