Power Kite Forum

Harnesses for Kite Buggying and 4 Line Traction Kites

72hundred - 8-16-2018 at 06:40 AM

Hi,

I've been kite buggying on and off for the last 6 years so.

Recently I've found great conditions that would allow me to stay out for hours but in truth my arms are fatiguing before I want to head off the sand!

A few years ago I tried to set-up a simple harness, but I didn't like using it as in a 4 line set-up it was on the power lines and I didn't trust it to not rip me across the beach and in truth it wasn't very ergonomic. I've attached an image of it.

Is there a beginners article or guide that I should read to set-up a harness with a 4 line kite? Also which is the best harness to be using? All my kites are 4 line traction kites. (Peter Lynn Vapour, Yakuza, etc.)

unnamed (Small).jpg - 80kB

cheezycheese - 8-16-2018 at 06:52 AM

If you are using these kites in a buggy, that seems like a good set up. When flying fixed bridle kites like the ones you own, some folks like to use a 'quick release". I fly depower mostly so I don't use one. If you search the forum for - AQR or Auto quick release or block and wichard, you should find a good deal of info.

Looks like you already have a wichard.

Windstruck - 8-16-2018 at 01:03 PM

The Peter Lynn Divine harness is popular with dedicated buggy pilots, myself included. You already have a nice setup in the picture you provided. If it were me, I'd be looking to pick up a Divine harness and then using your existing "cummerbund" on it. The Divine harness is purpose built for buggy flying and distributes the load nicely all through your core, seat meat, and upper thighs. Quite comfortable really. The wonky thing about the Divine harness is sizing. I'm 6 feet tall and about 225 lbs and fit just fine in a Medium. I don't know if I want to cross power lines with the guy that needs their XL.

PL Divine Harness

BigKid here on PKF has spent considerable effort designing a nice AQR that a lot of us use. I am really confident with mine. I use it with DP kites though it was designed for strop line FB flying. I simply run the chicken loop straight into the winchard. It sort of looks as if you may have an AQR already, but maybe not. Does the winchard have a release that is wired to the buggy? If not, you may want to toss a U2U at BigKid and he can certainly walk you through things and even sell you an AQR if that seems the right way to go. I've been very pleased with the one I bought from him a few years ago.

Good luck!

slapbasswoody - 8-16-2018 at 01:28 PM

That looks like the start of a pretty good set up there.
As Windstruck (Steve) has mentioned the Peter Lynn Divine seat harness is was pretty much the go to harness for fixed bridal buggyists around the world.
One thing I would do is to get rid of that plunger quick release snap shackle and get a wichard trigger style one.
The plunger style ones WILL bind up on you at the moment you need it most and you will be getting lofted skywards.

Best wishes
Woody

72hundred - 8-17-2018 at 03:57 AM

Thanks guys for taking the time to send on the info on. Really great tips. I'll get a Devine harness into action I think and I'll U2U (?personal message) BigKid to get more info and an AQR.

slapbasswoody - you're dead right, its like concrete now after spending a few years in the attic and I think I'll need to hammer or drill it out to fix it, hilariously not what you want in a quick release.

Just so I can catch up on the terminology - "chicken loop" from a quick google this seems to be a depower kite feature? If I'm using a 4 line system I presume the part that goes into the pulley is the cord between the two handles (at the same level as the power lines)?

Thanks, again.


cheezycheese - 8-17-2018 at 04:30 AM

Chicken loop = depower. On your fixed bridle kites the line that slides on the pulley is a strop.

abkayak - 8-17-2018 at 04:44 AM

sorry...
im not for all this crap to go buggying
simple hook and strop you can kite for hours and hours...
fly more spend less

72hundred - 8-17-2018 at 08:49 AM

Thanks cheezycheese.

I don't follow, abkayak. Do you mean just have no safety system and hard link yourself to the kite to matter what? I hope its not this as I know someone acquired brain injury from a kite surfing accident where he was unable to release the power and was dragged across rocks.

cheezycheese - 8-17-2018 at 09:35 AM

That's exactly what he is suggesting, and is common practice. I can't comment as I don't fly this way. But I have.... :cool: depends what you are comfortable with.

jeffnyc - 8-17-2018 at 10:09 AM

72hundred - on water most use a depower bar with a chickenloop that flags out to one of the front lines (or mini 5th, or 5th line) as primary safety and a leash also with a release if you need to let the whole mess go. Many people use power kite/bar with their buggies. Sometimes lines get wrapped, or chicken loops jam, or you're just not fast enough and bad things happen. It's up to you to check your equipment, and not fly in conditions above your skill level.
Fixed bridle at it's simplest you just hold onto the bars and let go if there's trouble. You can attach kite killers if you're afraid of losing your kite (though there is much debate on whether they're worth some of the problems they create - I'm now in the just let your kite go camp). Next you can do what abkayak is suggesting and use a strop (the line between the tops of the handles, you put the line directly onto your harness hook). To release that you have to be able to pull your kite off of the hook.
Your system involves being able to release the whole pulley, AQR was a stroke of genius as it does that for you if you're dragged out of your bug.
All of these have pros and cons, you just have to figure out what you feel most comfortable with, and check your equipment regularly.

abkayak - 8-17-2018 at 10:10 AM

safety 1st always...
theres nothing hard linked its just more manual
but all the hardware isn't required to be safe...imo
i just think you gotta be a good pilot and know this flying stuff backwards and forwards
before you start injecting blocks, winchards, rollers or whatever to the equation...
i strop in to a regular hook and feel ill get out and let go...so far even during many obes
i don't see that stuff making me any safer..no disrespect to how anyone else wants to go about it...
and sorry about your friend

cheezycheese - 8-17-2018 at 10:12 AM

What he said :D thank you Jeff. I was waiting for someone with patience and a real keyboard to come along. :D

72hundred - 8-17-2018 at 10:29 AM

@jeffncy; I've been emailing BigKid today and he's due to send on a video of how the AQR works. I'm still struggling to conceptualise it - how does it work? Could you post a pic or a video of you manually triggering it?

Demoknight - 8-17-2018 at 10:53 AM

Quote: Originally posted by 72hundred  
@jeffncy; I've been emailing BigKid today and he's due to send on a video of how the AQR works. I'm still struggling to conceptualise it - how does it work? Could you post a pic or a video of you manually triggering it?


The easiest way to explain it is you have a small line running from under your seat through the drain hole in the center of your buggy seat that hooks to your quick release. If the kite picks you up more than a few inches, the line pulls the quick release for you. It gets ripped out of your hands before you can react, which is good because you usually get lofted faster than you can react to pull your own safety.

jeffnyc - 8-17-2018 at 12:20 PM

Demoknight is spot on. Here's Popeythewelder's version of Jeff's AQR - I'm sure Jeff will have the best advice on this:

http://popeyethewelder.com/informational/automatic-quick-rel...

I landboard and kiteboard, no bug, but I did a ton of research on the different safety systems just so I knew what was out there, and what would work best for me (and this stuff is super interesting!). I'm totally with abkayak - the simpler the better, know the gear you have, learn to fly like a demon (always working on that, to abkayas great amusement!). I'm now building my own depower bars as I feel most modern bars have too much extra junk added for my needs - I'm not jumping or pushing any boundaries at the moment, so I want a clean, minimal system, and now I know how/why it all works.
AQR setup sounds like it would be good for your needs if you're doing long hours and high speeds.

72hundred - 8-17-2018 at 02:02 PM

Wow, that is really cool alright. Right I know what direction I'm headed in.

72hundred - 8-18-2018 at 04:31 AM

With all these AQR's to people still have the kite killers on their wrists or do they just let the kite off into the wind?

72hundred - 8-18-2018 at 05:17 AM

^^^^

Never mind found a few posts. Seems it mixed bag; you can tie down the kite via the kite killers if you wish but a lot don't see the need.

Windstruck - 8-18-2018 at 07:09 AM

Quote: Originally posted by 72hundred  
^^^^

Never mind found a few posts. Seems it mixed bag; you can tie down the kite via the kite killers if you wish but a lot don't see the need.


It's a big world out there, but I don't recall ever seeing anybody ever using kite killers in a buggy. My exposure to multiple buggy pilots has been at the annual IBX event on Lake Ivanpah on the CA/NV line near Las Vegas. The only time I've ever seen kite killers in action have been static flyers, and then only the beginner ones. I personally find them an incredible pain in the seat meat and threw mine out years ago. Once you are even reasonably proficient flying FB kites on handles it is a rare occurrence that would arise where piloting skill couldn't get you out of trouble by using the brakes. If the situation is not savable with skill then just let go. In that situation, the consequences of being still attached to the kite are probably worse than gathering the kite up somewhere down wind.

If you are using a strop line through a hook or pulley on a harness the kite killers will be in the way and just major overkill. You've been discussing the use of an AQR which will deploy when things go very wrong very quickly. I wouldn't want kite killers all tangled up in that hot mess.

72hundred - 8-21-2018 at 03:36 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Windstruck  
Quote: Originally posted by 72hundred  
^^^^

Never mind found a few posts. Seems it mixed bag; you can tie down the kite via the kite killers if you wish but a lot don't see the need.


It's a big world out there, but I don't recall ever seeing anybody ever using kite killers in a buggy. My exposure to multiple buggy pilots has been at the annual IBX event on Lake Ivanpah on the CA/NV line near Las Vegas. The only time I've ever seen kite killers in action have been static flyers, and then only the beginner ones. I personally find them an incredible pain in the seat meat and threw mine out years ago. Once you are even reasonably proficient flying FB kites on handles it is a rare occurrence that would arise where piloting skill couldn't get you out of trouble by using the brakes. If the situation is not savable with skill then just let go. In that situation, the consequences of being still attached to the kite are probably worse than gathering the kite up somewhere down wind.

If you are using a strop line through a hook or pulley on a harness the kite killers will be in the way and just major overkill. You've been discussing the use of an AQR which will deploy when things go very wrong very quickly. I wouldn't want kite killers all tangled up in that hot mess.


Yea fair enough. I don't get a chance to kite buggying that often so maybe I'd like the safety net of having them, I'll try have a way of having them out of the way.

I never heard back from BigKid about the video, tbh I don't think it represented very good value for me at $250 as I already have a lot of components. So I'll probably just try and make something popeye had in the images.

Windstruck - 8-21-2018 at 06:19 AM

Quote: Originally posted by 72hundred  
Quote: Originally posted by Windstruck  
Quote: Originally posted by 72hundred  
^^^^

Never mind found a few posts. Seems it mixed bag; you can tie down the kite via the kite killers if you wish but a lot don't see the need.


It's a big world out there, but I don't recall ever seeing anybody ever using kite killers in a buggy. My exposure to multiple buggy pilots has been at the annual IBX event on Lake Ivanpah on the CA/NV line near Las Vegas. The only time I've ever seen kite killers in action have been static flyers, and then only the beginner ones. I personally find them an incredible pain in the seat meat and threw mine out years ago. Once you are even reasonably proficient flying FB kites on handles it is a rare occurrence that would arise where piloting skill couldn't get you out of trouble by using the brakes. If the situation is not savable with skill then just let go. In that situation, the consequences of being still attached to the kite are probably worse than gathering the kite up somewhere down wind.

If you are using a strop line through a hook or pulley on a harness the kite killers will be in the way and just major overkill. You've been discussing the use of an AQR which will deploy when things go very wrong very quickly. I wouldn't want kite killers all tangled up in that hot mess.


Yea fair enough. I don't get a chance to kite buggying that often so maybe I'd like the safety net of having them, I'll try have a way of having them out of the way.

I never heard back from BigKid about the video, tbh I don't think it represented very good value for me at $250 as I already have a lot of components. So I'll probably just try and make something popeye had in the images.


Fair enough. Jeff (BigKid) is a stand up guy and a solid member of the PKF family. I know you aren't saying otherwise. His $250 price tag might seem high but it is hardly scaled production pricing. He makes each assembly personally which includes a welded ring in the plunge pin of the winchard. His design also comes with hours of R&D behind it as he rigged up equipment and worked to ensure absolute assurance of proper operation just when you need it most.

Again, I'm not implying that you are slighting Jeff in any way. Rather, I'm just sort of rallying around Jeff for having put in the R&D time and actually offering such a tiny-demand product to friends, most of whom he has never actually met in person (like me). :thumbup:

slapbasswoody - 8-21-2018 at 06:22 AM

The European set up doesn't isn't attached to the buggy but you will be looking to pay around $200 for good (Safe) components.
Make sure you get the good ones rather than the cheap Chinese stuff off ebay.
A broken back or neck is much more than $200.


72hundred - 8-21-2018 at 01:49 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Windstruck  


Fair enough. Jeff (BigKid) is a stand up guy and a solid member of the PKF family. I know you aren't saying otherwise. His $250 price tag might seem high but it is hardly scaled production pricing. He makes each assembly personally which includes a welded ring in the plunge pin of the winchard. His design also comes with hours of R&D behind it as he rigged up equipment and worked to ensure absolute assurance of proper operation just when you need it most.

Again, I'm not implying that you are slighting Jeff in any way. Rather, I'm just sort of rallying around Jeff for having put in the R&D time and actually offering such a tiny-demand product to friends, most of whom he has never actually met in person (like me). :thumbup:


Yes your dead right, I appreciate the R&D and probably would have been very happy with a price tag in the 100-150 zone given I had so much of the kit already. But postage to Ireland would have probably driven it up to $300 so that would have been just too much given I would have discarding so much of stuff bought already. I've ordered from a French company - https://www.muziker.ie/wichard-2673-snap-shackle-aisi630 so build out the kit.

eric67m - 8-21-2018 at 04:44 PM

Here is an older video of Jeff's from YouTube. Last time I talked about this subject he was using a different shackle (possibly with a custom spring) than that the video shows.

https://youtu.be/lpdMYO1mQO0

slapbasswoody - 8-22-2018 at 06:39 AM

Quote: Originally posted by eric67m  
Here is an older video of Jeff's from YouTube. Last time I talked about this subject he was using a different shackle (possibly with a custom spring) than that the video shows.

https://youtu.be/lpdMYO1mQO0


Wow, I certainly wouldn't like that bar ramming into my nether regions.
Eeechawowa!!!!

Unk - 8-22-2018 at 07:35 AM

Is That an AQR or is your buggy just pleased to see me :D

eric67m - 8-22-2018 at 08:05 AM

The bar can be short enough to get just behind the hole for the line in the seat. Seats are generally supportive enough that you do not feel it at all (depending on how you angle and weld it). On my little Flexifoil Navaro I can barley feel it (due to the geometry of that body) but I don't see a way that the seat would ever get to a position that an injury could occur.

It's funny that I have pictures of wind_dogs earlier setup on his old buggy but no pictures of either of my attachment bars.

Cerebite - 8-28-2018 at 12:34 PM

Just a couple of comments to add to the discussion:
"Popeye" style AQR: This is what I use as I put mine together before Jeff had completed his development and started offering them to the community. I agree with the comments that you need to get good quality marine/ or rock climbing components. I have had brass "plunger" style bails bind up on me under loading. In the states the best resource for finding them is West Marine, cant speak for Ireland but any good boat/ sailing shop or site should have the Winchard [and to the price statements they do run c. $60]. To add the "A" to my AQR without a seat drain hole I have a length of climbing webbing around the tail of my downtube [no stinger for me] that connects to a 'beaner and then to the pull tab of the Winchard [which I lengthened with a monkey fist key chain]. The webbing allowed me to tune my release point so that it did not activate under "standard" side pulls in the buggy. So yes it probably still costs about $120 -!50 and is not as thoroughly tested and researched as Jeffs unit [and has the hazard of a pulley still being on the strop after release].

Kite killers: Like many I used these when I first started traction kiting but stopped after a few [or a few too many] "still attached to the kite" incidents. For the most part FB kites are glorified bed sheets/ grocery bags so if you relieve the line tension they will usually collapse to the ground within a line length or two. Furthermore they will interact with the ground much more gently if it is not still attached to your wrist and applying line tension. I have read stories and had some close encounters myself to attest to the kite killers ability to break a wrist when the full pull of a XX m kite goes from your hand(s) to your wrist(s). I fully acknowledge that it is a learning curve to "let go" of several hundred dollars worth of kite gear and trust it to land and be retrievable. If I remember correctly the only time I had to retrieve a traction kite off of a roof was due to having killers on the handles which kept the kite shaped and inflated [you have not lived until you have to know on someones door out of breath in full Mad Max gear and ask to climb onto their roof :D]

Windstruck - 8-29-2018 at 06:21 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Cerebite  

[you have not lived until you have to knock on someone's door out of breath in full Mad Max gear and ask to climb onto their roof :D]


Now that is an OUTSTANDING visual my friend. Hope to hear more one night at IBX 2019, now just 204:10:36:30 (and counting) away! :lol: