Power Kite Forum

Old Noob

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3shot - 3-25-2017 at 02:48 PM

I've got a good feeling Ben is going to fit nicely into the mad house. No such thing as too many kites. Lol
Yes Ben we will laugh about my user name at JIBE.

John Holgate - 3-25-2017 at 08:36 PM


Quote:

Thoughts?


Why would you want an Alpha if you've got a 4m NS2 on the way? It's not going to do anything the Nasa's won't do and it will be less usable in gusty wind. Wait for your nasa's to turn up, fly the snot out of them. Get together with other flyers and try their kites - but buying any more foils at this point seems like a waste of money - particularly a beginner foil like the Alpha. I had the Beamer 2m & 4m - both good kites but they became superfluous as time went on and I sold them. I can pretty much guarantee the Alpha will go the same way.

Save your $$$ for a depower or two down the track after you've flown some different ones.

Randy - 3-26-2017 at 05:49 AM

I agree with John. I actually did just that - got an Alpha while the NPW was on the way because I thought I needed to learn to fly 4 line. It turned out ok because I sold the kite as kite-only and kept the handles and lines which I would have had to buy anyway. Absent z-bridles the flying technique between the two kinds of kites differs.

Of course, you can never have too many kites....


oldben - 3-26-2017 at 07:20 AM

Sounds like good advice John and Randy.

The only 4 liners I have(non LEI) are the 5m Beamer and 6m Sky Tiger. Was thinking the 2.5 Alpha would make a decent foil trainer and higher wind kite. @$218 its not a bank breaker and the handles can be used with the NPWs on Zs. I can cut loose the 3m Rush to cover some of the cost.

Listen to me rationalize!

Good news is the fine folks at USPS figured out where Darien is and the kites and buggy are in JAX. Hopefully have it all tomorrow. Cant wait!

THANKS SEAN!!


oldben - 3-27-2017 at 05:44 PM

Got all the nice stuff from Sean this AM.

Got the buggy together no problem but spent a long time fussing with the seat. Finally concluded the dang thing sucks. Looked up the manual on line and found I had it in backwards. Turned it around fussed with it some more and it still sucked just not as much. The saving grace for my not too good old back was the loop and straps Sean had modded. I found if I crossed the straps I got good back support between the shoulder blades. Not lexus comfortable but not too bad.

Looked the kites over(all nice) and checked out the bars. Got the depower bar figured. My take on it is its really a trimable system and not a true depower. Its true pulling the yellow ball depowers the kite but not in the way a depower foil or LEI does. Doesnt matter it still gives some power adjustability.

Gonna try the 2.5 tomorrow at Jekyll looks like low tide and the seabreeze coincide in the afternoon.

Many thanks to all of yall for your input, advice, and guidance!!

ssayre - 3-27-2017 at 07:12 PM

Hey Ben glad the stuff got there. Hopefully you could tell how I had the homemade backrest set up from my picture of it in the email. The webbing was tied in a knot around the Down tube where the side rails connect. I then neatly folded the excess and taped to the downtube with elictrical tape to keep it tidy. You can configure it however you want but thats how I did it. You have to have the straps tied tight with little slack to keep the blue pex from bending backwards. I was going for supportive but somewhat flexible on that design so I didn't have a rigid piece behind my back. It's pretty comfy once dialed in. Still not Lexus comfy though.

Windstruck - 3-28-2017 at 05:19 AM

(not so old) Ben: Memory serves that the buggy you just acquired from Sean is a venerable Peter Lynn. Notorious for making your back feel sore. You've stumbled on the reason a lot of us don't use that rail and seat system. Perfectly serviceable, and I'm sure Sean did good things to improve upon it comfort wise, but there's only so much lipstick to go around in the swine yard.

My buggy started as a stock PL BigFoot+ but after a while I upgraded the rail and seat system with a fantastic setup from Van Nguyen, a great fabricator down in the Houston area. Night and day difference. Nobody ever said this sport came cheap! :evil:

oldben - 3-28-2017 at 05:28 AM

Yeah Sean
Your loop/strap combo is right on. After I got the seat in and adjusted I found little to no support for the upper body. I guess dynamically with the kite pulling maybe its better. With the loop/straps it allows just a bit of recline and back support. I looked at the pic you sent and saw the plan. All I did different was to cross the straps. Now my back is basically supported by the straps before really laying on the loop. Works great!


Good idea you had!

Yep Windstruck

I can see some modding would certainly be justified! After sitting in a stock seat set up a while, an OBE just might be a welcome break!

Windstruck - 3-28-2017 at 05:50 AM

Quote: Originally posted by oldben  
I guess dynamically with the kite pulling maybe its better.


Sorry (not so old) Ben, but it's worse. When holding the kite you are not only not supported but you are also twisted to the side. Remember that you are tacking so the buggy is rolling more or less cross wind. This is particularly straining after a while just holding a bar or handle not stropped or chicken looped in to a harness. Even hooked in you are still twisted to the side holding the bar. With a NS bar hooked in via the trapeze loop there is no load on your arms and you just work the bar a bit with your fingers to steer the kite. Same with a stropped set of handles. With a DP kite there will be bar pressure you need to resist with your arms, and being twisted to the side as you are this will likely get uncomfortable after a while.

We warned you to not get addicted to this sport! Hide your wallet and freeze your bank accounts while you still have a chance. :evil:

jimbocz - 3-28-2017 at 07:28 AM

You should post some pictures, I'm curious.

oldben - 3-28-2017 at 01:41 PM

Heres a pic of the relace.

I must have been in and out of the bug 10k times adjusting everything to the most minute detail.
Must have made my back pretty sore. Went out this AM and sat down and its (relatively speaking) Lexus comfy. I like it.
The biggest seat adjustment was to get the back rim loose enough so it didnt cut into the small of the back. This has clearly removed most of the Marquis de Sade desigin to the seat.
My butts not going to clear any speed bumps, but thats part of the fun I guess. Maybe I can hit something and enjoy an OBE at the same time.

Its a delicate balance!

001.JPG - 120kB

oldben - 4-2-2017 at 02:55 PM

Finally got a chance to fly one of the Ns2s. Flew the 2.5m on a 2 line bar just to get a feel for it Only had time to fly locally
at the R/C field. It has lousy dirty wind due to trees.

They are nice flying kites, even in the chopped up wind it was stable and controllable. Made some good power in the gusts for its size.

The only strange thing was on the first launch the kite wanted to turn over and fly upside down. it launched normally then at about 20 ft it spun over and stayed that way. Second try it flew fine for the rest of the time. Nothing was changed with the kite or lines. I assume a wind condition?

So I guess when I get some time to make it to Jekyll, its put up or shut up with the buggy. Anybody going any time soon?

Windstruck - 4-2-2017 at 04:15 PM

Quote: Originally posted by oldben  
Finally got a chance to fly one of the Ns2s. ... The only strange thing was on the first launch the kite wanted to turn over and fly upside down.


Welcome to flying NASA Stars. They all seem to back fly in the right combination of conditions and piloting. You'll get used to it and proficient at taking them out of that condition.

Practice practice practice

John Holgate - 4-2-2017 at 11:15 PM

MIght also note with the Nasa's - it's very easy to get a bridle line just hooked around one of the knots the kite lines attach to - it can make for some very interesting flying behavior.

oldben - 4-3-2017 at 05:28 AM

You are right Windstruck need a lot of time on the handle.

Should have tried a bigger kite yesterday but figured better to err on the small side. In a constant wind the 2.5
would have been plenty for static.

John
Might have had a line wrapped around a part of the bridle. I rechecked everything, straightened the kite back out
and all was well. Really like how it flew.

My DFO 9 has passed thru customs, maybe it will be here this week. Be interesting to compare kites.

oldben - 4-5-2017 at 03:49 PM

Another question.

I found with the Sky Tiger HI60 a Flexfoil 4 line control bar. Looks like the brakes tie into the center lines which have
a pull strap adjustment and the fronts on the outside.

Cant the line positions be reversed if the kite flys better with brake input? A set of killers could be added to the brake
lines when on the outside.

Right or wrong. Trying to decide if I need the bar or not.

Randy - 4-5-2017 at 07:33 PM

Dont know anything about that bar or kite but normally with a 4 line bar the two lines connected to the center are the power lines and the outside lines are the brake or steering lines. The center lines are adjusted to get the right power/brake setting. I've flown NPW kites with 4 line bar wo problem. Again not sure how that particular bar is set up but it sounds just like a normal 4 line bar.

oldben - 4-6-2017 at 05:47 AM

Thanks for the reply Randy.

Seems that maybe this one is different? The center lines are anchored to a loop and slide through an eyelet
as the bar is moved side to side. Also the outer guide lines are red and blue seeming indicating the power lines.
I think with slight bit of modding I can make it work either way. I know some kites like brake input, not sure this bar as is offers much.

I have a PL crossover, just seems a bit clunky for static flying. Was waning to use this one for static only.

Other wise I will fleabay it.

Randy - 4-6-2017 at 06:08 AM

Quote: Originally posted by oldben  
Thanks for the reply Randy.

Seems that maybe this one is different? The center lines are anchored to a loop and slide through an eyelet
as the bar is moved side to side. Also the outer guide lines are red and blue seeming indicating the power lines.
I think with slight bit of modding I can make it work either way. I know some kites like brake input, not sure this bar as is offers much.

I have a PL crossover, just seems a bit clunky for static flying. Was waning to use this one for static only.

Other wise I will fleabay it.


A picture would be worth a 1000 words or at least several dozen, but sounds very much to me like an ordinary 4 line bar. Line color is not all that reliable of a guide, but I've seen bars where the center are both one color and the out lines are color coded. Sounds like the center is set up to be adjustable. It is the relative length of the power v. brake lines that matters not which one is being adjusted. So moving the power in and out has the same effect as moving the brake lines.

oldben - 4-6-2017 at 02:48 PM

Got ya.

Think I will give it a try.

Bladerunner - 4-6-2017 at 03:56 PM

You Fly Fixed bridle kites with the front ( FLY ) lines to the outside of the bar for effective turning. FB kites are essentially 2 line kites with brakes. You can only finesse the brakes with handles. A crossover adds some input but no finesse. The only acceptation I know of is the Turbo bar. From what I here not all kites accept the Turbo bar.

You Fly depower kites with the front ( Power ) lines to the center of your bar so you can trim the kite. You sort of turn it doing brake turns but it's not as simple as that.

You seem stuck on trying to turn fixed bridle kites into depower kites. Without re-working the bridle + adding pulleys you won't get the proper control. Fixed bridle kites fly best on handles. That is how they are designed. I wasted a LOT of time and a bit of money trying to fly FB kites on bars. It can be done but at the price of dumbing down your kite. I could have become a much more skilled pilot faster if I hadn't wasted all my time messing with bars on FB kites!

You have never answered my question as to why you don't want to go depower? It seems to me that a good low bar pressure depower with a stopper is what you want and are trying to create using FB?

oldben - 4-7-2017 at 04:58 AM

Hey Blade

Thanks for the explanation on FBs and bars.

My question was basically about the bar I have and how it might be hooked to the kite. My questions in the past were to
get an understanding of of the various bars that were being used on 4 line FBs and Nasas.
Most of the questions on depower were related to the Nasas as I remember.
Im not against flying depower and I guess the kites I got from Sean are set up this way as well as the DFO 9 I am waiting on.

I have come to the conclusion I need to learn handles and was going thru all the conglomeration of kite stuff I have sorting out the handles and bars trying to figure out what to keep/get rid of. Though my hand strength is improving to the point of flying handles, I can see the need to have to use a bar long term and was wondering about the common 4line bar vs the rather
complex PL cross over.











abkayak - 4-7-2017 at 05:19 AM

No i don't know your situation but
once you are all comfy w/ handles and being hooked in you are gonna laugh about all the time and effort you
put in trying to go fb on a bar or you'll go dp..its just how it is
most of my dp kites have decent bar pressure but guys have handed me set ups w/ near none and require 2
fingers and no effort to fly

Bladerunner - 4-7-2017 at 06:58 AM

I suspect you are looking at a simple 4 line FB bar.
The ring you mention on the middle line is so your brake lines can rock back and 4th as you turn the bar?

ssayre - 4-7-2017 at 11:23 AM

Quote: Originally posted by abkayak  
No i don't know your situation but
once you are all comfy w/ handles and being hooked in you are gonna laugh about all the time and effort you
put in trying to go fb on a bar or you'll go dp..its just how it is
most of my dp kites have decent bar pressure but guys have handed me set ups w/ near none and require 2
fingers and know effort to fly


I agree with all this with one exception. The nasa stars are fixed bridle but fly great on a 2 line bar or the stock born 3 line bar. Hook in and fly one handed with ease with no bar pressure. Just simple stump pulling power.

oldben - 4-8-2017 at 05:51 AM

Yeah Blade

The brake lines run thru a form of eyelet and travel back and forth thru it.
Has a pull strap to set brake tension. Its a common set up I have seen by various makers. PL makes similar. I will try it. So far I tend to like smaller kites in higher winds. I can imagine a bigger kite might fly like Dumbo on a bar, but the smaller ones seem pretty responsive.

I agree with Sean on the NS kites. The common 3 line bar would be just fine.

I flew the 2.5 NS yesterday in pretty chopped up gusty winds at the R/C field. What a power house! I caught one gust with the kite overhead, felt it load up and just instinctively jumped with it. While it wasnt exactly a big lift I went up a bout a foot over a normal jump and the duration was extended a bit, meaning the kite had a good bit of lift. I learned later even though my wind meter
indicated around 15-18, the area had gusts to 35.

Now I understand why Sean said the 2.5 was the most used kite! Have to respect the Nasa!



oldben - 4-11-2017 at 06:27 AM

So I bought a Cross Kites Quattro 3.5m from AWOC to use as a handle trainer.
Went to Jekyll yesterday and flew at the water tower. Winds were lower than expected when we got there, 4-6.
Kite still flew in these winds but had to be worked. I was pretty impressed it flew at all actually. Flying the handles wasnt as hard
as I thought it might be, though Im sure I wasnt very graceful at it. It is really nice to be able to land the kite so easily.
Finally around 3 the seabreeze picked up and the kite woke up. Had a great time, its a good flying kite.
Had to adjust the brakes out a knot as I found them too sensitive as received.

Sad thing is in the stronger winds my left hand was done in about 20 min. I realize this is static flying and with a strop and harness I may be able to go longer. Next ting is to try the Quattro on the standard 4 line bar

I aslo got the DFO Nasa9 4.5 and depower bar yesterday. Its a very nice kite.

jimbocz - 4-11-2017 at 06:33 AM

Quote: Originally posted by oldben  

Kite still flew in these winds but had to be worked. I was pretty impressed it flew at all actually.


I think that this is the best quality training towards kite control. Any idiot can get a kite in the air when the wind is blowing hard. It takes skill to fly a kite in low winds.

Bladerunner - 4-11-2017 at 04:42 PM

WoopWoop KiteLoop!

20m is about all I can stand flying Armstrong and powered as well.

For FB kites it is easiest to hold the handles with one finger above the fly line and the rest below. Might be a little easier on the fingers to?

NPW kites on handles like a bit of brake input all the time. I personally find it better to fly them with all fingers below the fly line.

If you have a harness and are feeling comfortable start out just hooking in to rest up / extend your fly time.

As mentioned and as you saw, forcing the kite to fly in less than it's ideal range helps to make you a better pilot. If the kite will fly to the edge and stick there it is in it's range. Before that you want to keep it in motion creating " apparent wind " as you race through the power zone on front lines. Down turns are also a useful move. Crazy as it sounds small light kites fly early. If you force them. They just don't produce usable power to get you moving as early as big canopies will.

Keep getting in all the fly time you can before WBB . In a perfect world you want to feel confident enough with your pilot skills to take your 1st buggy runs there! Consider going for a tandem ride with somebody 1st. As they take you around they can tell you how they are setting up to start + turn etc..

oldben - 4-12-2017 at 06:08 AM

Thanks for the encouragement!!

Problem with the handles is I only have 2 fingers and a thumb to hang on with. Thumb was doing all the work
hooked over the handles top. Still Im happy with how well it went.
I noticed when the winds got better that the kite would actually turn quite well by just pulling the brake on the side turned to. It has highly effective brakes. This doesnt bode well for the standard 4 line bar I imagine.

I have a kite boarding harness that came with the LEI stuff, looks nearly new. Should work fine right? Also bought a strop.
I have got to learn how to handle the 4 lines as far as winding them up. I read the article Angus wrote Kiting 101and wrapped
them that way but still tangled /twisted them up. Guess I will practice this a bit. The bar is so nice with the end winders.

Wished I had brought the buggy, tide was low, beach was basically empty, and the winds were ideal for a total noob.

jimbocz - 4-12-2017 at 06:44 AM

Quote: Originally posted by oldben  
Thanks for the encouragement!!

Problem with the handles is I only have 2 fingers and a thumb to hang on with. Thumb was doing all the work
hooked over the handles top. Still Im happy with how well it went.
I noticed when the winds got better that the kite would actually turn quite well by just pulling the brake on the side turned to. It has highly effective brakes. This doesnt bode well for the standard 4 line bar I imagine.

I have a kite boarding harness that came with the LEI stuff, looks nearly new. Should work fine right? Also bought a strop.
I have got to learn how to handle the 4 lines as far as winding them up. I read the article Angus wrote Kiting 101and wrapped
them that way but still tangled /twisted them up. Guess I will practice this a bit. The bar is so nice with the end winders.

Wished I had brought the buggy, tide was low, beach was basically empty, and the winds were ideal for a total noob.


You'll know you are ready to get in the buggy when you can walk the route while keeping the kite in the air. Just head down the beach, facing the way you are walking, perpindicular to the wind. The kite should be on your side, with your arms over to your side flying the kite. Ypui've got to watch where you are going at the same time as keeping the kite in the wind window and flying. At some point, turn your body downwind and turn the kite so that it is flying back the way you came. Walk back the way you came with the kite flying next to you.

That's the essential kite skills you will need while buggying. If you cn't do all that without dropping the kite, you aren't ready for the buggy.

oldben - 4-12-2017 at 08:15 AM

Yeah
I know need more air time. But just a quick ride even if I had to walk back!

Cant wait til Jibe!

Maybe this tip will help if anybody else has a Quattro or any kite that doesnt have an anchor point for the bridles.
Big Mike pointed this out in his review. Really how much does a sewn in Velcro loop cost? All it takes is 2 tongue
depressors and a cable tie. Holds the bridles very firmly. The depressors are smooth and gentle on the bridles and kite too.

004.JPG - 100kB 005.JPG - 105kB

jimbocz - 4-12-2017 at 08:56 AM

Quote: Originally posted by oldben  
Yeah
I know need more air time. But just a quick ride even if I had to walk back!

Cant wait til Jibe!

Maybe this tip will help if anybody else has a Quattro or any kite that doesnt have an anchor point for the bridles.
Big Mike pointed this out in his review. Really how much does a sewn in Velcro loop cost? All it takes is 2 tongue
depressors and a cable tie. Holds the bridles very firmly. The depressors are smooth and gentle on the bridles and kite too.



Is that to hold the bridles after you take the lines off? Personally, I never take my lines off my kites if I can avoid it. It's like begging for tangles. I guess it might be different if you don't have lines and handles for every kite you own, but I'd make it a priority to get some. Trying to switch over lines and handles on a windy beach is a recipe for a tangled up mess.

Oh, and sorry if it sounds like a lecture but don't get in that buggy without a helmet. There are so many ways you can bash your skull. Once, on a high wind day, the kite got behind me and the lines were across my chest. The full power of the kite was applied to bending my torso backwards until my head hit the axle hard. If I weren't wearing a helmet, I probably wouldn't be typing this.

Cheeks - 4-12-2017 at 12:06 PM

I'll lecture about helmet.
My worst OBE ever. Jerked out of my buggy when a large gust blew my 3.2m Zebra behind me during a turn, did a superman exit, about 10ft of air, dropping me on the hardpack beach ON MY HEAD AND left SHOULDER. Dragged on my side with my helmet against the sand leaving minor sand rash on my face with a 55ft drag across the beach!
The impact marks are on my helmet. My face healed up and I'm still getting steroid shots in my shoulder.

Several fellows use a bike helmet and they work and others use a motor cycle skid lid. Some like full face etc. They all work, just some work better than others. Look at it like this..... what's your head worth?

USE A FREAKIN HELMET. :mad:

oldben - 4-12-2017 at 12:51 PM

Thanks yall!

Dont mind a helmet lecture a bit.

I have one and you can be sure it will be on in the buggy! Sounds like a heck of and experience Cheeks!

Jimbocz

I prefer to remove the lines and bar/handles on most kites. Makes the kites easier to shake out and clean. If the wind is up I generally hitch em up at home before hitting the flying area. Probably more trouble but its just personal preference I guess.

hiaguy - 4-12-2017 at 02:38 PM

Quote: Originally posted by oldben  
Makes the kites easier to shake out and clean.


Huh? Are we supposed to be doing this :puzzled:

oldben - 4-13-2017 at 06:02 AM

Quote: Originally posted by hiaguy  
Quote: Originally posted by oldben  
Makes the kites easier to shake out and clean.


Huh? Are we supposed to be doing this :puzzled:


I always do, hoping maybe some of the stuff I have lost might be in there.

With the Quattro especially since it doesnt have dirt outs.

Bladerunner - 4-13-2017 at 05:23 PM

Quote: Originally posted by oldben  
Quote: Originally posted by hiaguy  
Quote: Originally posted by oldben  
Makes the kites easier to shake out and clean.


Huh? Are we supposed to be doing this :puzzled:


I always do, hoping maybe some of the stuff I have lost might be in there.

With the Quattro especially since it doesnt have dirt outs.


At our age I have to keep my kites and lines together so I am sure I won't forget one or the other. ;)

NAPKA require you to wear a helmet when in motion. Sounds like you are wise enough to have done so but membership ( required for WBB ) dictates that you wear one.

Cheeks - 4-14-2017 at 11:17 AM

Quote: Originally posted by hiaguy  
Quote: Originally posted by oldben  
Makes the kites easier to shake out and clean.


Huh? Are we supposed to be doing this :puzzled:


I always figure 8 my lines and just gather up the wad of ripstop. I just stuff it in the bag to latter para pack in a clean and dry environment. No beach staines.

oldben - 4-14-2017 at 01:18 PM

I usually remove the lines then stuff the kite in the bag. Take it home shake it out, then lay it out and check the bridles and kite over then fold it up nicely(try too any way) and put the handles/bar in the bag with the kite.


Since trying handles I have spent some time fighting with getting the 4line handle winding sequence down to no avail.

Saw John Holgate demo the sock winding method at the end of one of his vids( he attributes this to another forum member). Man what an easy way to do it.

Highly recommended--5 stars!

oldben - 4-15-2017 at 05:38 AM

So since working with the foil type kites on handles I decided to build a quiver.

Bought a 2.5 FF Rage for $169 shipped from Amazon. I thought this was a pretty good deal. This was kite only, I already
have several line sets.
I got the kite yesterday and was blown away by the quality! Even the bag was amazing. Remember I havent seen many kites let alone high end ones, but compared to the few I have these are tops.

Went back to buy a 3.5 and the 4.7 and the 3.5s were sold out. So bought the 4.7. Will use the old 3.5 Cross Quatro in the meantime. Initially I like the idea of having a line of similar kites so less time is spent on set up and more on learning.

Speaking of learning I couldnt find an explanation on the triple A adjuster. I see how it works but how is it changing the kite?

I know yall think Im kite crazy but really all the money I have spent so far is a drop in the bucket on what I would spend in a month when I was heavily into sport aviation.

More kites=more fun!

skimtwashington - 4-15-2017 at 05:59 AM



Triple A Adjuster ( AoA) explanation:

http://www.flexifoil.com/template/Manuals/Blade%20IV%20-%20T...

Windstruck - 4-15-2017 at 06:07 AM

Quote: Originally posted by skimtwashington  


Triple A Adjuster ( AoA) explanation:

http://www.flexifoil.com/template/Manuals/Blade%20IV%20-%20T...


Thanks Tuck for posting this link. Interesting and elegantly simple design. It would seem that to optimize this setup you would want to adjust the relative length of the brake lines too. In practice, do you have some knots on the brake handle pigtails that you lengthen or shorten the brake lines with as appropriate? Seems like that would be how to do it.

Maybe this is a non-factor and just an illusionary point coming from the drawing. :puzzled:

skimtwashington - 4-15-2017 at 07:22 AM

Brake line remains constant in all 3 modes.

Windstruck - 4-15-2017 at 07:42 AM

Quote: Originally posted by skimtwashington  
Brake line remains constant in all 3 modes.


:thumbup:

Bladerunner - 4-15-2017 at 09:06 AM

Please take a good look at depower kites and maybe try and get some hands on experience at WBB.

It sure seems to me that a good low bar pressure depower is the perfect set up for your needs. I am still not clear why you are so interested in kites that fly best off handles when a good depower and bar will seem to be the ticket to long rides with total control?

jimbocz - 4-16-2017 at 04:48 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Bladerunner  
Please take a good look at depower kites and maybe try and get some hands on experience at WBB.

It sure seems to me that a good low bar pressure depower is the perfect set up for your needs. I am still not clear why you are so interested in kites that fly best off handles when a good depower and bar will seem to be the ticket to long rides with total control?


That's what I'm thinking every time I read this thread. I always wanted to be gentle because when you've just bought a bunch of new kites you don't want to hear that. I always figured that Ben would get a few hours practising with fixed bridles to understand the basics, then move on to an Access or something depower with a bar. Problem solved, missing a finger won't even be an issue. Harness and safety release sorted. Desire to use a bar satisfied.

No biggie though, the more experience with different kites the better.

Ben, if you still haven't had a go on an access be sure to find me at JIBE. I'll most likely be under a big orange Access.

Bladerunner - 4-16-2017 at 07:50 AM

While I have pushed depower on Ben before I felt OK pushing for it again when he mentioned that He is OK with the money he has spent.

PLease PLEASE DO check out depower kites at WBB! I truly believe that once you get moving strapped into one you will kiss handles goodbye!

As you are seeing, Nasa and FB kites fly very different. Depower also is the same game, different animal. I started out on FB and still own FB+ Nasa but I will go to my depower kites every time conditions permit.

Personally I think you want to look at the new Single Skin depower kites. They will suit 99% of the things you seem to be after.

Windstruck - 4-16-2017 at 08:36 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Bladerunner  
While I have pushed depower on Ben before I felt OK pushing for it again when he mentioned that He is OK with the money he has spent.

PLease PLEASE DO check out depower kites at WBB! I truly believe that once you get moving strapped into one you will kiss handles goodbye!

As you are seeing, Nasa and FB kites fly very different. Depower also is the same game, different animal. I started out on FB and still own FB+ Nasa but I will go to my depower kites every time conditions permit.

Personally I think you want to look at the new Single Skin depower kites. They will suit 99% of the things you seem to be after.


I completely agree with Ken(2) re taking a keen look at SS kites. I disclaim that I am thoroughly biased towards that persuasion, but they truly do check a lot of boxes. While I insist on referring to you as (not-so-old) Ben, one thing I'd be keenly considering is selecting non-lifty kites. Appreciate that while all kites can and will lift you in the right (or wrong depending on how you view things) conditions, you have to work harder to get lofted with, for example, an Ozone Access, Flysurfer Peak, Born-Kite NS or LS2 than on myriad other kites with higher ARs. Going the route of non-lifty, low AR kites makes the Kiting experience less "sporty" than with high AR kites and you will sacrifice some upwind ability, but you may actually stay close to Terra Firma.


oldben - 4-16-2017 at 04:15 PM

Hey guys say what you need to, all advice is welcomed.

I have thought of depower kites for sure. Figured Id work my way up from the bottom learning what I could about
all the various kites. Everything I have done to this point has been enlightening as well as fun. If Im never able to move
anything with wind power static flying is still a blast! I have been flying kites since Hi-Flyers we paper and cost a dime. I love kites!

So telling me I will be better off with a depower besides being good advice means more kites! Yaay!

Recommendations?

Now what kind of fun can we have with these LEIs I have?

Bladerunner - 4-17-2017 at 10:06 AM

I kind of figured you are buying different style kites because you enjoy figuring out what and why each is different. Nothing wrong with that if you can afford to buy and sell. My only WARNING there is not to spend too much time exploring options. This game is 90% kite control. The sooner you figure out what style suits you and your needs and master that kite the better for progression. Having spent this time on Nasa and FB you will know what I think I know. Depower is the way to go for your situation.

What LEI / depower foil kites do you have? I think you have some old C kites? You are right to be Leary of those. They are / were a very aggressive style of kite with very little depower and safety.

I really think once you see the Peaks and Longstar 2 kites you will be moved to try them? They are sort of just up your alley. A new direction and innovations to keep you thinking about design. Tons of depower and wind range. I don't have a lot of hands on experience with these kites but the LS2 looks to have a smoother profile, smoother power delivery, Less of that awful flap when over sheeted and an adjustable stopper on the trim line that I am sure you will grow to love. There may not be any LS2 kites to see at WBB? Be aware of them and look at the Peaks as a similar kite.

The traditional kites that will suit your style are Ozone Access, HQ Apex, Flysurfer Viron and such.

I am pretty confident saying that once you get moving in the buggy your #1 desire will be the long beach runs available to you. Nice low winds with a big sail will be your thing. Trim stopper set so you can " park and ride " for miles with nothing but minor trim / steering adjustment! You will come out of WBB with a lot more clarity and confidence. If you get to JIBE you will go in knowing a whole lot more about the gear that truly suits your needs.

Between now and WBB you should focus on being confident enough with your kites to start moving in the buggy when there. Start walking out turns so you have thought about them when in the buggy. If it is available, take a tandem ride and ask the pilot to talk you through what he is doing.

oldben - 4-17-2017 at 01:44 PM

Thanks for all the insight Blade!

Will check out the kites you listed.

Questions of course. Can a bigger depower be flown in higher winds than a comparable ranged FB? Im not much of a light wind fan.
Like to kite in medium winds. Since Im so close to Jekyll I can basically choose based on the winds when I want to go. Im thinking a 5m is about as big as I would like to tackle. Does this sound like a reasonable maximum size for say 10-20mph?

I know there is not a one size fits all kite but if one chooses the wind range for the kite then maybe? Especially at depower
prices. I could rationalize maybe 2 kites sizes(at the moment) for different wind ranges. The most fun I have had so far
was flying my little Symphony 2.2 in 25-30mph winds earlier this spring. A pain to launch and recover but what a hoot!

The LEIs I have are older. A Cabrinha Contra 12m, a Slingshot turbo 3 and a smaller 5m something. I was thinking the 5m might be fun to play with in medium winds as its range for real power begins in the upper 20s as I remember.

Windstruck - 4-17-2017 at 01:51 PM

Quote: Originally posted by oldben  
Thanks for all the insight Blade!

Will check out the kites you listed.

Questions of course. Can a bigger depower be flown in higher winds than a comparable ranged FB? Im not much of a light wind fan.
Like to kite in medium winds. Since Im so close to Jekyll I can basically choose based on the winds when I want to go. Im thinking a 5m is about as big as I would like to tackle. Does this sound like a reasonable maximum size for say 10-20mph?

I know there is not a one size fits all kite but if one chooses the wind range for the kite then maybe? Especially at depower
prices. I could rationalize maybe 2 kites sizes(at the moment) for different wind ranges. The most fun I have had so far
was flying my little Symphony 2.2 in 25-30mph winds earlier this spring. A pain to launch and recover but what a hoot!

The LEIs I have are older. A Cabrinha Contra 12m, a Slingshot turbo 3 and a smaller 5m something. I was thinking the 5m might be fun to play with in medium winds as its range for real power begins in the upper 20s as I remember.


Somebody just posted a (near new) 6.0m P3 and bar. Just sayin.... :D

Honestly, this would be a great kite for your conditions.

oldben - 4-17-2017 at 02:07 PM

D A M N it.

Im caught with my financial pants down until I sell the Boston Whaler. Spent all my play money on what else--kites!


Bladerunner - 4-17-2017 at 06:00 PM

Quote: Originally posted by oldben  
Thanks for all the insight Blade!

Will check out the kites you listed.

Questions of course. Can a bigger depower be flown in higher winds than a comparable ranged FB? Im not much of a light wind fan.
Like to kite in medium winds. Since Im so close to Jekyll I can basically choose based on the winds when I want to go. Im thinking a 5m is about as big as I would like to tackle. Does this sound like a reasonable maximum size for say 10-20mph?

I know there is not a one size fits all kite but if one chooses the wind range for the kite then maybe? Especially at depower
prices. I could rationalize maybe 2 kites sizes(at the moment) for different wind ranges. The most fun I have had so far
was flying my little Symphony 2.2 in 25-30mph winds earlier this spring. A pain to launch and recover but what a hoot!

The LEIs I have are older. A Cabrinha Contra 12m, a Slingshot turbo 3 and a smaller 5m something. I was thinking the 5m might be fun to play with in medium winds as its range for real power begins in the upper 20s as I remember.



AHA, I have been waiting for you to say this ! DON'T be afraid of the extra size involved in depower. Trust me on this! The way a depower works it doesn't feel as crazy as you think when under the kite. Please trust me on this. I am WAYYYYYY more afraid of small FB kites and strong squirrely winds than I am of the extra kite size involved in depower.

YES, you will use a much larger depower kite in the same winds as FB. Arcs are an extreme example of this. I am just getting lit up on my 15m Syn' when folks are moving down from 5 to 4 or 3m kites. I can fly that kite from 10mph to 20+ but that is pushing the bottom end.

Asking for any kite to work as well in 10mph wind and also feel safe in 20mph wind is a stretch! Sounds like you can do it with a 6m Peak ???? But YES you should think about a 2 kite depower quiver.

I personally LOVE a 6 - 10 mph day. Flying my big beautiful 19m Silver Arrow for miles along a nice beach. Sail set and taking up all sorts of sky as I go. I am a tiny old guy on a tiny old buggy ( or blades or board ) and pretty safety conscious. If Jekyll is anything like our beaches you will eventually want a big " day saver " kite but that is down the road.

Like I suggested. You will come out of WBB with a much more clear picture of where you are going. Wait until then to make any changes in gear.

Don't waste any precious fly time on your LEI's. Time is much better spent under a kite you are likely to use learning on your buggy.


abkayak - 4-17-2017 at 06:16 PM

don't listen to these guys buy all the different kites you can
i will be waiting as a bottom feeder

Randy - 4-18-2017 at 04:58 AM

:)

oldben - 4-18-2017 at 01:50 PM

Ok Blade

Depower is in on the back burner. How soon I can bring to a full boil remains to be seen.

You guys know bottom feeding is a habit of mine, thats what started my kite feeding frenzy!

adambweird - 4-18-2017 at 04:20 PM

Ben, I noticed you like the Symphony 2.2 in some strong wind, i too enjoy that same kite in crazy conditions, lol. I switched to padded straps to save my wrists and some heavier line to handle the load. The 1.3 i have is even crazier in high winds, shoots around like no tomorrow, lol.

oldben - 4-19-2017 at 06:15 AM

Quote: Originally posted by adambweird  
Ben, I noticed you like the Symphony 2.2 in some strong wind, i too enjoy that same kite in crazy conditions, lol. I switched to padded straps to save my wrists and some heavier line to handle the load. The 1.3 i have is even crazier in high winds, shoots around like no tomorrow, lol.

Yep the Symphony was my first "big" kite.

I have had more fun with it. I fly it on a bar(came that way). In 25+ winds
will scudd you when passing low in the power zone.
I have no doubt would pull a buggy to some extent in high winds.

Pretty good pull considering its something like 1.6sqm.

Got the Rage 4.7 yesterday. I am really blown away again by the quality.
Seems like maybe Flexi is phasing the Rage out? There are no 3.5s which I would like to have had and no indication on the site about when they may again be available.

Ed Cline - 4-19-2017 at 10:33 AM

You have to keep an eye on Amazon for the occasional Flexifoil offering. Recently they were selling Prolink handles for cheap, and another time 25m 200/100 line sets for 50.00.
Then they were gone. To quote the president "sad".

I believe Amazon takes a limited shipment and disburses it for Flexi, probably to generate interest. Whenever stock runs out they simply say that they don't know if or when there will be any more.

I tried a 1.8 Rage. So much fun is this little rocket of a kite. Even on a bar it turns and zooms like a speed foil. It has some juice too. I plan to use it with the bug when my 2.5 NS3 is pulling the bug sideways. Come on hurricane!

oldben - 4-19-2017 at 04:36 PM

Yeah Ed
I have been searching all over for a 3.5, watching Amazon, Ebay and the web. Flexi doesnt have them either. Will just have to pick my winds carefully. A 3.5 is a good all purpose kite.
The little 1.8 is tempting at $149 shipped, I believe I saw it at Flexi for $169 with handles and lines + shipping of course. I have the 3.5 Cross to fill the gap, just though it would be neat to have a Rage full house.


oldben - 4-26-2017 at 07:08 AM

So anybody think this could be modded to in flight adjustable with a 5th line maybe? If the C line was adjusted to the low position then linked with a yoke line, pulling in the yoke line should increase the AOA, right? Would probably require a guide or ring at the base of the main lines bridal pig tail. While not exactly depower it would be a form of power trim.

Yeah I know I over think stuff, but just sayin.

http://www.flexifoil.com/template/Manuals/Blade%20IV%20-%20T...

Demoknight - 4-27-2017 at 10:53 AM

Quote: Originally posted by oldben  
Thanks for all the insight Blade!

Will check out the kites you listed.

Questions of course. Can a bigger depower be flown in higher winds than a comparable ranged FB? Im not much of a light wind fan.
Like to kite in medium winds. Since Im so close to Jekyll I can basically choose based on the winds when I want to go. Im thinking a 5m is about as big as I would like to tackle. Does this sound like a reasonable maximum size for say 10-20mph?

I know there is not a one size fits all kite but if one chooses the wind range for the kite then maybe? Especially at depower
prices. I could rationalize maybe 2 kites sizes(at the moment) for different wind ranges. The most fun I have had so far
was flying my little Symphony 2.2 in 25-30mph winds earlier this spring. A pain to launch and recover but what a hoot!

The LEIs I have are older. A Cabrinha Contra 12m, a Slingshot turbo 3 and a smaller 5m something. I was thinking the 5m might be fun to play with in medium winds as its range for real power begins in the upper 20s as I remember.


Ben, I recommend listening to everyone pointing you towards the Ozone Access. I had the pleasure of flying the 14 meter Access in a very janky wind field near Chicago in winds ranging from 8mph to 18mph and even on the higher end, it was probably the smoothest kite I have ever flown. If I were in your position, I would look into a 10-12m Access for your wind range of 10-20 mph. 10m sounds like a big kite, but I promise it only feels large when you look at it spread out on the ground. Once you get it in the air, it is such a docile and forgiving kite, even in stronger winds.

oldben - 4-28-2017 at 05:22 AM

Thanks DK!

I have been looking at depowers and really like the Ozone!

The fact they are in the paraglider/speed wing business factors large with me on design and quality.

Sounds like the 10m is the one I should be looking at.

Thanks a lot guys for all the advice and help!!

Jibes gettin close!! Hope to see it all then.

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