Power Kite Forum

Old Noob

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oldben - 3-13-2017 at 08:08 AM

Hey everyone, new to the forum and recent to kiting.

My aim is to ultimately buggy and maybe land board. Im probably the oldest guy on the forum. Should have better sense than to be starting this at 67, but good sense was never my strong point.

Im in pretty good shape except for my left hand which I injured years ago. This injury pretty much precludes flying handles, so a bar is the only way for me to go.
Have mastered two line foils, currently flying a Slingshot B2 which I really like. Bought a group of used kites at a good deal, mainly to get a 5m Beamer in the lot. I would like to fly this kite on a bar. There are a few LEI depower kites in the group with lines and bars I could use/adapt.

I have read all I could find on flying a fixed bridle on depower bars(here and else where) and have a pretty good understanding on the concept. I have seen Turbo and crossover bars etc.

What I guess I am asking for is the best route to go with an FB on a bar. Hopefully using one of the depower bars I have.

Any advice is greatly appreciated!

oldben - 3-13-2017 at 08:11 AM

Actually Im flying the Slingshot B3. Hit the wrong key. Didnt see a way to edit.

Windstruck - 3-13-2017 at 09:14 AM

Ben - Welcome to the addiction! Nice to have new folks wading into these warm, pleasant waters. While I'm a mere pup at 56 I would almost guarantee that you are far from the oldest on PKF.

A couple of things to consider here. FB kites generally fly like crap on bars, no matter how fancy the bar such as a turbo, etc. Some folks say the FB kite gets dummed down, I'd say its more like giving the kite a frontal lobotomy. Others may have had better success than me, this is certainly not an end-all opinion. Second, LEIs are by their nature "lifty" kites. Lifting is exactly what a 67 year old beginning kiter does NOT want to do. The lifting part is actually surprisingly easy (I know), it's the graceful landing part that gets tricky. Gravity is not your friend in this situation. For that reason I would steer 500 miles away from LEIs in your personal case. Also, not knowing how new your LEIs are (and I suspect they aren't particularly new since you picked them up in a group for a "good deal") they may have antiquated (read dangerous) safety systems. If I were you I'd never launch those LEIs. Third, if you are going to buggy (which is an absolute blast) I would strongly consider hooking up with Jeff (BigKid) on this forum and getting one of his custom AQRs (automatic quick release) for your eventual buggy. No need to get it before getting your buggy, just get it to use in your buggy. In short, Jeff's AQR ensures that the kite disengages from your harness if you start getting lifted up out of your buggy in what is affectionately referred to as an OBE (an Out of Buggy Experience).

So... my 2-cents are that if you want to buggy and you can't use one of your hands you are stuck with a bar. If you must use a bar then you will need a harness. Also, the kite style of choice is probably best a DP. If you are using a DP in a kite strapped onto a harness around your body then you ought to consider an AQR.

Go for it! It is an absolute blast to be mobile under kite power. Where do you live BTW? There are a number of super-cool kiting events coming up around the corner (JIBE, IBX, etc.) and maybe you could go to one for a deep immersion.

jimbocz - 3-13-2017 at 10:06 AM

I absolutely agree with the above that you should be very careful flying old LEI kites. Unless you are under instruction from someone who knows about them, they are dangerous.

Your essential problem is that you need to be hooked in to a harness because you can't fly handles, but being hooked to a kite when you are learning is extremely dangerous. With handles, if you get in trouble , you simply let go. With a turbo bar, you get dragged around the field.

Can you get professional instruction? That would ensure you are safe and allow you to fly harnessed up earlier than would otherwise be advisable. An instructor would also be able to look at your LEI kites and convince you not to fly them.

I think the real answer to your question is to start flying depower foil kites with a harness as soon as you can, which is as soon as you've got a lot of practice flying that Beamer . Something like an Ozone Access would be perfect for you as it's very mellow and has no lift and is on handles with a well designed safety system. It's not a beginner kite though, and being harnessed to one is no place for a beginner .


Blitzhound - 3-13-2017 at 11:46 AM

I have a 5m Beamer. I bought a bar to fly it on. I've tried several different setups. None of them work well enough that I would consider buggyin with the setup. My Beamer has been my #1 FB kite to buggy with until recently. This is a wonderful kite. Regardless of what some on here might say. But you will never have the control you need to buggy with it on a bar IMO. Depowers on the other hand. Your harnessed in and when in the buggy you can literally fly one handed. I have to disagree with jimbocz though. The newer DP's with the more advanced safety systems are perfectly safe to hook into as a beginner. Especially if you already have flight experience on a two line trainer. Ozone's re-ride system on say an Access or a peak3 with the new reefline system, or even and Arc with their flag out system. You don't get any safer then these in the kiting world, other then just not hooking in at all. Like windstruck said. Talk to BigKid about an AQR system. I just hooked my son onto a 10m Venom this weekend. It was his first time flying a depower. Also the first time flying anything larger than my 5m Beamer. But he had instruction and safety training from me. If you can make it to an event or meet up with a fellow kiter that can help you progress safely. By all means do it. You will learn more in a day than you will in months on your own. Plus you will get exposure to all kinds of kites. FB's, DP's, Arc's, LEI's, New and old. You will leave with a better understanding of where you want to go with your future quiver.

Welcome to the addiction.

abkayak - 3-13-2017 at 12:32 PM

welcome oldben...come hang out w/ us
someone gotta be around you...its easier that way
personally i believe in flying everything i can...you just better know whens the right time
no do overs w/ this sport;)

oldben - 3-13-2017 at 12:58 PM

Wow, thanks for all the replies and great input!

Will leave the LEIs alone for now. Was thinking maybe down the line of using one for kite kayaking. Probably never happen.

As to using a bar, Im afraid I have no choice. Im really not looking to do much in buggying but riding down the beach. If the kite is dumbed down it will probably better suit my style/age. I have read that the addition of a pulley to the brake lines helps, also flying the brakes on the ends of the handle with the front lines in the center? I have managed to get some(awkward) landboard riding out of the Slingshot B3. If the Beamer on a bar works about as well I think I could make it work/live with it.
What I am failing to see is if differential braking is fed in with the turning of the bar the kite should turn pretty well right. Also if both brake lines are pulled simultaneously the kite will back down. I realize the control bar will never have the finesse of handles on an FB kite, but I have to settle with my limitations.


Also I have a 3line RushV Pro 3m (on bar of course) and I dont much care for it as is. Could the brake harnesses be linked with a loop line to the center of the bar to make a sort of 4 line kite. This is where the pulley on a center line would come in. If the center line is harnessed, when the bar is pushed away the kite brakes. If the bar is let go the kites lands like in an emergency. Please check my thinking here.

Im passed the point of needing to do the incredible stuff I see done with kiting. If I can mod these kits so I can ride up and down the beach I will be a happy camper--er kiter.

Will be at Jekyll for Jibe to take it all in.





Windstruck - 3-13-2017 at 01:40 PM

Quote: Originally posted by oldben  
Wow, thanks for all the replies and great input!

Will be at Jekyll for Jibe to take it all in.



Absolutely fantastic that you will be able to attend JIBE. I have wanted to go to that event but live on the other side of the country. Being there and asking your questions in person when folks can see exactly what you are trying to accomplish will take you 1,000 miles down the road, far faster than trying to noodle things out on your own.

Please note that when folks are saying that putting a FB on a bar leads to the kite getting dumbed down that this isn't another way of saying that things are simpler (which is how I interpreted your response). You lose most of the control but none of the potential power. Not a good combination of effects when trying to keep even a simple buggy run down the beach from becoming a Code Brown moment followed by a flashing light moment... The folks at JIBE will be able to explain this live so much better than I or others will manage typing out responses. Fantastic that you will be able to go!

Final thing, do you have anyone in your life you can trust with a lot of your money? You may need to protect yourself from yourself in this sport. :karate:

Cheeks - 3-13-2017 at 03:11 PM

You might want to look at the HQ Scout ll. A 3 line FB that flys with a bar. Chris Shultz tuned a new one I brought to JIBE one year and it was great in the buggy.

www.kiteboardingevolution.com/buy-a-hq-scout-traction-kite.h...

They have 3 sizes a 3m, 4m, 5m that should cover most of the wind range. Buy it RTF.

The Scout ll is a step above a trainer kite. It turns tighter, has more power, and is packed with features.

I believe that I was 64 when I had that kite. Now that I'm 70, I have a nice quiver, mostly FB's and a 4m Ozone Access DP I love. A 16m Air Rush and a 12m Slingshot that I haven't
flown but once @.

All us old men need to start an over 60 club!:cool: Ted, you in?

See you at JIBE!

JimSSI - 3-13-2017 at 07:06 PM

Oldben -

I'll bring my three-line HQ Hydra 3.5 to JIBE - my first buggy engine - and for a long time, PB top speed.

It's more of DP water trainer, actually - but I needed something that I could get wet. And crash a lot. And crash in the water. A lot.

Hell, you can even fly this unharnessed with your one good hand.

So, not so good at anything other than park and ride a beam reach.

Although they do make a QR strop for bars - Toby has one.

Then - no hands...

And "take it all in?" Dude, bring a helmet, join NAPKA, and we'll have you cruisin' the length of the island by Friday.

Welcome to monkey house.





bobalooie57 - 3-14-2017 at 05:01 AM

Welcome to the forum, oldben.. Here is a link to a vid of buggying with HQ's Rush pro 300.
https://youtu.be/ulU20r1QEmM

oldben - 3-14-2017 at 06:27 AM

Thanks for all the input yall!

bobalooie I enjoyed the youtube link. Thats what I am after!

JimSSI thanks for the offer. Will try to see you there! I actually live in Darien and go to SSI to visit my 91yr old Mom the lives there often. The winds are forcast today for 15-25 out of the W. may go to the south end of Jekyll and fly my 2.1 Symphony for a work out. Kites a wind hog, may have enough wind today to for it.

Cheeks, I have looked at the Scout. I believe its a crossover arrangement. Thats what I think I have come up with for the Beamer.

My idea to bounce off yall is to use either one of the depower bars or maybe the Rushes 3 line bar. Run the brake lines thru a ring attached to the center line and cross the right to a point on the left front line and vice versa. When turning with the front line the opposing brake will be applied to some degree. The brakes will work as killers when a wrist strap is worn. Also the brakes can be trimmed maybe limiting power when necessary.

What yall think?

acampbell - 3-14-2017 at 06:55 AM

Hey OldBen

Nice to know that you're in the neighborhood; Darien is close enough.

Yes the Scout features a cross-over rig. The early ones had the cross-over rig in the control bar (the conventional approach for a cross-over. The newer ones moved the cross-over up in to the kite bridle in order to reduce clutter in the control bar rig. Both are similar in that they use mechanical advantage to amplify the brake inputs found in a conventional control bar that has a center-line pulley. It sounds like you have a good enough understanding of it to MacGyver one of your existing bars.

When flying on Jekyll Island, do not go south of the southern water tower. There is an ordinance that forbids it due to protected wildlife species. Same thing with walking dogs down there. If you go to the southern water tower (there is improvised parking and a good access path there) and then head north a few yards towards South Dunes Park, you will have open and mostly vacant space to play.

Looking forward to seeing you on the Island. After the current cold snap, we should start seeing the sea-breezes that come with spring and summer. Give me a holler if you come this way and we'll meet up.

Fair Winds

Angus


Windstruck - 3-14-2017 at 06:57 AM

Quote: Originally posted by oldben  


What yall think?


Since you asked, I think you are trying to turn a FB kite into a DP kite without the luxury of a pulley system out at the bridles. The point of the pulleys is to change the so-called "angle of attack" of the kite which is to say it tilts the kite more or less along its longitudinal axis. What you are describing may just collapse the kite or put it into some sort of crazy spin. Can you find some punk kid to test fly it for you? :evil:

Traction kites can really spank you so please use caution during experiments like this. I suffered a subdural hematoma and could have easily killed myself last summer doing what I thought was a well controlled flight.

oldben - 3-14-2017 at 08:03 AM

Thanks for the heads up on the wild life areas Angus!

And thanks for the wonderful collection of articles you have written. I have read every one, some multiple times. They have been instrumental in my success so far.

Thanks for your input Windstruck!

I dont think I will actually have a DP kite with what I am doing as the center line will be fixed by a stopper of some kind. About all I may be able to do is trim the kite a bit on the brakes. Similar to moving the brake lines up or down knots like on some kites but done by moving what ever stopper on the center line I come up with. I would hope to be able to back the kite down by pulling the center line which in theory should apply the brakes evenly.
I agree that caution should be used with an unproven idea. The ratio of brake application Should be fairly small I imagine, too much and it would probably be quite a spinner! Just enough to improve the turning by killing a bit of lift on the down side of the kites turn. In theory once again the ratio should adjust by the distance the center line positions the cross over. The farther out the less brake. With out a working model yet, this is all theory. Experimentation is in my blood!

BTW does anyone know if the sewn in tabs on the back of the Slingshot B3 are for brake harnesses?

Prussik - 3-14-2017 at 09:11 AM


Quote:

Im in pretty good shape except for my left hand which I injured years ago. This injury pretty much precludes flying handles, so a bar is the only way for me to go.


Not knowing the nature of your hand injury I don't want to be too definite about it but I can't understand the assumption that you can fly with a bar but can't with handles with no pull at all on your hands. Of course you have to be hooked in to your harness with a strop, the skill which can be learned quickly and safely IF you:
- use spreader bar with a pulley and learn to fly with one hand and unhook with the same one hand. This is easy if you have a large diameter pulley with a shallow groove, otherwise you will need some QR,
- use very small kite for the conditions, statically to begin with, and rely on flying it aggressively for more power in the lulls if needed,
- keep the kite low so you'll never be lofted not now and not in the future when you gain the experience to be comfortable powered up.

jimbocz - 3-14-2017 at 09:32 AM

In addition to what Prussik said, I'd make sure to understand what conditions are safe for you to fly a particular kite in. You should get and use a wind meter, or even better, learn the beaufort scale and be observant about how much wind there actually is. And how strong the gusts are.

Bladerunner - 3-14-2017 at 03:52 PM

You will be amazed at how many of us are OG's! You will be in good company.

I have been thinking pretty much exactly what Prussik is.

I spent way too much time and money trying to convince myself that a crossover bar was the way to go with FB kites. On one particularly gusty day I was getting nowhere with my bar. Out of desperation I went to handles and it made all the difference. Not all my FB kites liked a bar. Each kite needed the crossover tweaked to match. Generally it was a PITA all to dumb down my kite compared to the control offered by handles. Even when the crossover was working well.

Handles and a strop are potentially less hard on old bones than depower kites with high bar pressure. The only way a bar and FB kite will have lower pressure is if you fly it hooked in. May as well be hooked into a strop? Before I went DP and I wanted to push it hooked in I created a little pin and sleeve QR for my strop. Pushing it hooked in to a strop without some kind of release felt wrong. Is wrong by my standards.

If I was you I would strongly consider a strop with a QR over a bar for FB.

You will find that your idea of creating a slight bit of pressure on your back lines to stall the kite will cause all kinds of issues like back stalling, not reaching zenith and spinning. Don't waist the time. If you want depower on the fly you want a depower kite.

This game is ALL about kite control. Spend less time tweaking and more time flying for best results.

Don't be shy at JIBE! People will be super helpful but it will be up to you to ask for it! I hope you have room on your credit card! It's extremely hard to avoid buying stuff after you see what's out there at a gathering like that. Try and avoid impulse buying ! Be sure and take a close look / get hands on a NasaStar kite. They are a great kite for Wild Ones who need Mild Ones!

hiaguy - 3-14-2017 at 05:07 PM

Hey oldben,
Depending on how committed to the cause you are (or can be, given marital constraints), WBB is two weeks before JIBE.
No need to wait for warm winds locally when you can join us at Wildwood after a short 12-hour cruise up the I-95! Kites galore - even a Turbo Bar - to try.
As abkayak would say: "jussayin" :bigok:

BTW: 40 days to go to WBB Spring '17 :wee:

Prussik - 3-14-2017 at 08:00 PM


Quote:

Be sure and take a close look / get hands on a NasaStar kite. They are a great kite for Wild Ones who need Mild Ones!


... or Dutch Flying Objects. These would be an excellent choice to get comfortable with. They stay up in the air in very light wind and with very light pull. You can't damage them by crashing and they are cheep. And, later on, with some bridle adjustments you can get pretty good performance out of them.

oldben - 3-15-2017 at 05:55 AM

Wow thanks yall for all the info and encouragement!!

I have a wind meter and am well familar with the Beaufort scale as a lot of my other time is spent in the tidal creeks and sounds in the area. You have to be very sure of the local winds before venturing across the sound to Sapelo Island in a flats boat!

So Im taking away from this the bar isnt the way to fly I I can help it.

Right now most of my play money is tied up in restoring a Classic 1964 Boston Whaler which I will sell when completed to get deeper into kiting. The few bucks I have are saving towards a buggy so I need to use what kites I have at present, mainly the 5m Beamer.
I guess I will give the handles a shot. My hand injury consisted of sawing off three fingers on a table saw 20yrs back. They reattached 2 which work pretty good but dont have much grip. Flying with the bar my right hand takes most of the load. I have a waist harness the came with an LEI. I suppose I can use this to strop too?

Also in the kite group is an old Cobra 6m Sky Tiger in what appears close to new condition. What about it. Any good/usable to me?
Will check out the suggested kites. When the Whaler sells I can buy what ever would suit me best.


jimbocz - 3-15-2017 at 06:47 AM

Keep in mind that a 5 meter kite is fairly big and as a beginner who's just working out how to hold on to the handles, you should only fly that in very light smooth winds. Even more light for the 6 meter kite. 3 meters is the usual recommended size for a beginner.

Does that Beamer have kite killers? You'll need those for sure.

Personally, I would not use the harness and the strop until I had a lot at least 20 hours of flying experience in different conditions with the Beamer.

Come to think of it, I would hold off on saving for the buggy for now and buy a 3 meter kite to learn with. That will give you a wider range of conditions you can fly in to get practice. Light winds for the 3m and really light winds for the 5m. You can't do anything in that buggy until you are really good at controlling the kite without thinking about it, and you won't get to that point by learning on a 5 meter kite if you don't have the grip. Unless you live in a place with very light winds all the time, you'll find it much easier to learn to buggy with a 3 meter kite as well.

oldben - 3-15-2017 at 09:53 AM

I seem to live in a light wind area for the most part. There are higher winds(I rode out hurricane Mathew-lol) but generally it seems 15-20 is average. I have two 3m kites but they are 2 and 3 lines. The Slingshot will easily pull a land board but dont know about a buggy in average winds. And yes the Beamer has killers

Im thinking of just putting the Beamer on a 4 line bar and contending with what I get doing it.

Does the Beamer fly basically on the top handle(needing little brake) or does it require a lot of brake input?

I did look at the NasaStar, very interesting! I started hang gliding in the 70s on a Ragallo wing. That one glided like a brick!
What size will pull a buggy in my local winds range?

jimbocz - 3-15-2017 at 10:56 AM

Respect for the Ragollo Wing hang glider! I met Dr. Ragollo many years ago and he was a great guy. I used to work at Kitty Hawk Kites and he lived in the area.

Both of those kites (5 and 6 meter) are far too big for a beginner to fly in 15-20 mph. I'd be aiming for more like 10 or less.

I can't visualize what a four line bar will do for your Beamer unless it is a turbo or crossover bar. A bar from your kitesurfing kites will be designed to change the angle of attack rather than apply the brakes like your Beamer wants, so your results may not be what you expect. You could always just fly the Beamer on two lines, but without the brake lines to control the kite, it will be like driving a car without brakes. If you do it in 20 mph winds, it will be dnagerous. If you do it in 7 mph winds you won't be likely to break anything and you can call it an experiment.

abkayak - 3-15-2017 at 11:35 AM

15-20mph avg wind means a 3m kite...5m will spank you
3m kite will pull a buggy in that wind as well...my 1st rides bug and board were w/ that same rush

John Holgate - 3-15-2017 at 02:55 PM

Your Beamer 5m will work pretty well with a turbo bar. It will not be 'dumbed down' on the turbo bar. And you will not get 'dragged across the parS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K- if things go wrong because you've got a top hat release to pull which dumps the kite onto it's brake lines.

I've done many miles on a Beamer 4m and a Beamer 2m with the Ozone turbo bar - it works absolutely fine. It will take a while to get use to as it does things quite different to a depower (which is still the best option btw). But since you already own a Beamer 5m.....

Here's a vid of a nice arvo out with the Beamer 4m and turbo bar...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMiXE3i41GI&t=37s

and one on the turbo bar....



And a turbo bar mock up made from....um.....bits....

Turbo Bar mock up

If you put the Wrong bar on a particular bar, then yeah, it may be crap. But the Beamer does pretty well on the Turbo bar - give yourself a couple hours of flying time to get use to it.


John Holgate - 3-15-2017 at 03:07 PM

Also, 15mph is heaps for a 4m Nasa Star 3. My 4m NS2 pulls the buggy well from about 12 knots up to 20 knots. 15 - 20 would be right in the sweet spot for a 3.2m NS3. (I have fairly cool and dense winds in southern Vic, if you're in a warmer, drier area, you may need a size up). They are great kites and in my opinion, the easiest kite to fly on a bar - absolute child's play! Just don't land them in a pile of dead seaweed......

Bladerunner - 3-15-2017 at 05:00 PM

I didn't mention the turbo bar because I have no personal experience with one. I know that not all kites take to them. If John says they are a good match then it is worth looking into. The Turbo bar acts a lot like you are imagining.

By any stroke of luck are your index and middle finger your strong ones? I pretty much fly off of those 2 fingers. Index above the fly line, middle below.

Do you have handles already? If so you may want to try them while waiting for JIBE. AS you see not everybody will agree about when you should hook in. As I mentioned I would put a small quick release on my strop. AS far as the 5m being big and hooking in being scary just use common sense. This game is 90% kite control and 10% how you ride. The more in tune you get with your kite before jumping in the buggy the easier it will be.

When set perfect your brake lines should have no effect on your kite while flying with handles loose. When fully applied your handles should stall the kite to the point it backs down.

Not spending too much before JIBE is wise. Hopefully somebody there will have a Turbo bar to try / study so you can make your own. I think you want to try and get hands on with one of those and a Nasa style wing. Both are good options if you find you want to go to a bar. Same with the buggy. You will leave JIBE with a much better idea of what kind of buggy will work best for you. Why the expensive ones are expensive and the cheap ones cheap.

P.S. Take a good look at the land sailors as well. Folks who are windaddicted and lose their ability to buggy often see them as a great option. They are huge fun!!! :thumbup:

That Skytiger is a classic and a power monster. You may want to sell that one on to fund other stuff?


Wind_dog - 3-15-2017 at 06:07 PM

Add me to the most awesome
"Over 62 yo when I had my first buggy ride and it was with a Rush Pro 3m Club"

Not a bad way to get a first taste and immediate addiction..
Went on to some beginner quad line FBs.
Now working on DP single skin Peaks. :thumbup:
I like where this is going.


Wind_dog - 3-15-2017 at 07:08 PM

Oldben, U2U sent to you!

jimbocz - 3-16-2017 at 03:05 AM


I'll be at JIBE and I'm almost certain to bring my crossover bar, it's the PKD version of the Turbo Bar. The OP or anyone else is welcome to try it as much as they like. I always fly my fixed bridles with a turbo bar because I prefer it to a strop and handles in the buggy.

Old Noob, you are also welcome to have a go in my buggy if you like as well.






oldben - 3-16-2017 at 05:43 AM

Thanks John H for the vids and the input.
While the handles may be superior in others hands, I dont think I need a kite to do anymore than than what the Turbo bar/cross over bar will do. Problem is the Turbo is made of unobtainium as far as I can tell. Cant find one anywhere. Am looking at the Peter Lynn bar.

Bladerunner
My index finger is useable, unfortunately my middle finger is MIA. Hence the bar thing.

So was pretty impressed with the Nasa Star. Is Born kites aus Deutschland the only seller? Nobody stateside I can find with Google.

I probably over stated the wind speeds. Where I live on the marsh the winds whip pretty well I believe due to being influenced by a neighboring island. On the beaches its somewhat less. Also it seems that every 30mi south you go on the coast here the weather changes slightly. The Brunswick/Jekyll weather is slightly different than here in Darien. Go to Jacksonville and its totally different.

So what is a good size NS for say 5-15 mph? I weigh 175lbs + the buggy of course.

Jimbocz
Hope to see you there thats a most kind offer! All the way from the UK?!

jimbocz - 3-16-2017 at 05:58 AM

Quote: Originally posted by oldben  


Jimbocz
Hope to see you there thats a most kind offer! All the way from the UK?!


I'm sure most people won't mind letting you borrow stuff. Buggies are about indestructible and kites are usually fine once you've learned enough not to slam them into the ground or drop them in the ocean.

And yes, all the way from London by way of Istanbul. It's kind of a mid life treat for myself, I've always wanted to kite buggy on the beaches I went to as a kid.

TEDWESLEY - 3-16-2017 at 06:09 AM

Welcome to the forum! I will be at JIBE and have experience with the crossover bar on a beamer. I still have the bar
but no beamer for it. I'd be glad to part with it if you find that it works for you. I'm coming down early 4/24 so we could get together before the big show and get you started. I found that the beamers worked well on the turbo type bar, while
my reactors didn't.

Cheeks- would that be the OGBC, Old Geezer Buggy Club ? I think Morrie might have the Oldest Member title, I'm a mere
67. I think I hold the title for the state of Maine. There was a thread a year or more ago on the age topic and we found that we were an older person sport. Go figure.

Wind_dog - 3-16-2017 at 08:40 AM

Oldben, I have a new PL cross-over bar, still in its wrapper that I will not be using. I'd let you steal it from me.

U2U or email me if interested.

John Holgate - 3-16-2017 at 07:49 PM


Quote:

So what is a good size NS for say 5-15 mph? I weigh 175lbs + the buggy of course.


I'd say a 5.5m if you're winds are relatively dense. In Queensland, from what I'm told, you'd probably opt for a 7m.

From what I've seen, the PL Xover bar looks almost identical to the Ozone bar and as you can see from my 'mock up' bar, you can easily put one together with a few pulleys, quick release and a normal bar.

You'll often find more than one way to skin the proverbial cat - if you can get together with some like minded kiters, you really can learn heaps.

oldben - 3-17-2017 at 06:23 AM

Thanks for the suggestions John!

Should probably use the 7m as the temps are relatively high here in the summer. Even though we are at/near sea level the air density will drop off. When I used to fly while living in Florida, the early morning take offs were not near the nail bitters the ones in the afternoon were!

Prussik - 3-17-2017 at 08:38 AM

If you are considering Nasas at all then you should also look at Dutch Flying Objects Nasas 9 Depower. They have similar depower to NS, come in greater variety of sizes, are lower priced (they take out 21% VAT from the already lower price for foreign shipments) and , above all, have adjustable bridle (something that NS do not have) which allows you to set AOA as well as the trailing edge pull to your liking. This saved me a lot of time in modifications I felt I needed to make to NS. They seem to perform as well NS if not better because it is easier to make fine adjustments to the bridle settings. I have one of those in a small size and, from what I have seen so far, they would be my preferred choice in Nasas.

oldben - 3-17-2017 at 08:50 AM

I have just done so Prussik.

They seem to be real nice folk to deal with! Answered my emails promptly. They also take paypal which makes paying a lot
easier. I am initially planing on ordering a 7m depower wing, lines and depower bar.

Any input, thoughts or suggestions would be appreciated. Id like to buy a wing with the widest useful wind range. Rather be a bit over powered than under. I still have two basic 3m foils that can be used in higher winds. I have watched a lot of vids on the Nasa and think its right for me.

Prussik - 3-17-2017 at 11:10 AM

Keep in mind that 7 m is a "big" kite in Nasas . They generate a lot of pull for the size. 7m is the largest Nasa I have and I use it only in the lightest of breezes. Depower helps up to a point. Also keep in mind that if you are using a bar with these Nasas, most of the pulling force will be on your arms if you want to have the depower function. I fly them on handles and 5 lines to have brakes as well as depower and 0 pull on my arms except when launching and landing prior to which I considerably depower them. See also my earlier posting under Dutch Flying Objects.

oldben - 3-17-2017 at 12:24 PM

Understood on the 7m.

5.5(or there abouts) is the next size down. Is that enough for good pull in winds in the 8-12 mph range?
This is more the norm I believe in this area with 15-20 being less common but still happen often enough.

Think Id rather fight with a bit of over power(not excessive though) than fight keeping the kite flying. The stronger winds in
this area are generally after a frontal passage with the summer winds being a milder convectional sea breeze.

Since my experience is limited(very) to 3m foils I am relying on those of you with Nasa experience to help me out here. Would like to get the order underway by the first of the week.

Thanks for every ones continuing input!

Prussik - 3-17-2017 at 02:35 PM

It depends a lot on how much surface drag you have to deal with. Still it is a pretty big jump from 3 m classic FB to 5.5 Nasa. Unlike a classic FB, Nasas stay in the air even when underpowered with very little pull. For me 5.5 is still quite a large kite but I kite predominantly in low drag environment and, on clear ice, it is the largest size I ever use even in light breeze when it would be difficult to keep a regular FB of any size flying.

Windstruck - 3-17-2017 at 02:45 PM

Ben, if single skins, DPs, and a harness are "in play" you could be well served by a 6m Flysurfer Peak in any of its versions (1, 2, or 3). Just sayin'... :)

oldben - 3-17-2017 at 03:21 PM

Thanks yall!

I can buy a 7m Nasa and a depower bar or for slightly less money I can buy a 4.85 and 7m Nasa non depower kites and fly on my existing 2 line bar. I guess I could also buy depower kites only and fly them on my 3 line bar? I want to ride hooked in but I can do that on the non depower bars with a loop right.

The kites will be used for buggy and depending how well I handle it landboarding. All high drag I assume.

Thats a good point on having to hold the load with the depower bar. Couldnt a 3 line bar have setable depower with some sort of lockable adjustment.

Sorry to as so many questions just trying to come up with a workable solution for me so I can get it under way and on to the buggy.

John Holgate - 3-17-2017 at 03:49 PM


Quote:

Couldnt a 3 line bar have setable depower with some sort of lockable adjustment.


I believe that's what Steffen's 'streetkiting' setup is. I have one but only used it once or twice. Flying a Nasa with the nose all scrunched up just feels....er....yuck. And it tends to be more prone to stalling. Hence I only use the kite fully powered but can release to the nose/depower line to dump the kite in case of emergency. As there is very little tension on the depower line on the NS3's, you need a separate 'trapeze loop' (I think??) so you can hook them to your harness.

As Steve said, a 6m P2 is a lot better - but also more complex and more $$$. Unless a s/h one comes up.... and a 5.5m LongStar 2 is just slightly better again....:evil:

Bladerunner - 3-17-2017 at 05:07 PM

Quote: Originally posted by oldben  
Thanks yall!

I can buy a 7m Nasa and a depower bar or for slightly less money I can buy a 4.85 and 7m Nasa non depower kites and fly on my existing 2 line bar. I guess I could also buy depower kites only and fly them on my 3 line bar? I want to ride hooked in but I can do that on the non depower bars with a loop right.

The kites will be used for buggy and depending how well I handle it landboarding. All high drag I assume.

Thats a good point on having to hold the load with the depower bar. Couldnt a 3 line bar have setable depower with some sort of lockable adjustment.

Sorry to as so many questions just trying to come up with a workable solution for me so I can get it under way and on to the buggy.


John is right. If you are looking for depower buy a depower kite. You can probably scavenge pulleys etc. and everything you need to build your own Turbo bar from what it sounds like you have already?

Prussik is right. 7m Nasa is more a low wind size than all round size. He really knows his Nasa kites and just may be over 67? Very skilled. If he is suggesting 5.5 and Dutch flying objects I would listen!

Steve is Right. I think you want to take a good look at the Peak depower / LongStar 2 kites. Personally I think it is the right kite for your needs!!!!! :thumbup: It seems with the SS depower kites you can pretty much get by with a 2 kite quiver. FB and Nasa you will need at least 3. Take note how the Longstar 2 has an adjustable stopper on the depower line!


You are asking about an AOA adjuster kit for FB. It's not as simple as yanking in on the Brake / Z bridle. B and C need adjusted as well. YES they make them but there is a reason nobody uses them. FB Kites are set at there optimal AOA ( usually ) from the factory.

So many options...... The best thing you can do is hold off until after you have been to JIBE before spending big bucks on kites. Do your research so you know what you are looking at and why it is different than brand B . Buying a Turbo bar for your Beamer is only good money if you think you will be sticking with that kite. Most don't. the 3m yes but 5m, not so much.

This is exactly the right time to be asking questions and doing your homework. Going to JIBE it will all gel and I expect you will come out of it a lot more sure if Turbo, Nasa or SS Peak / Born LongStar 2 depower is what you want to go with.

Yes, you can buy a D-loop to hook in to a 2/3 line bar. Buy one with a Quick release!!!

Jekyll island can be low drag on the hard pack and high drag ( requiring more kite ) in the soft stuff. As you would expect.

oldben - 3-17-2017 at 06:59 PM

Great advice and info.

I guess Im not, to use an old term a prudent person. I tend to jump in and work it out as I go. I graduated at the top of the class from the school of hard knocks. I find experiences both good and bad good teachers. I dang sure use a feather board on my table saw now!

All that said I pretty much have it in my head I want to fly a Nasa. I will take the recommendation on the 5.5m and buy from DFO. I suppose maybe the Born kites are more refined? I can learn the finer points along the way.

So I dont necessarily want a depower if the standard kite will work fine. I couldnt readily determine if the standard DFO has a safety feature other than a bar leash like a 2 line foil? Is that enough/ok?


I believe I have concluded the Nasa dumps by collapsing the nose? Is a depower kite flown on a 3 line bar with the safety leash hooked to the nose via the third line a better option?

Looking for the simplest, user friendly set up on the 5.5 DFO.

Yall tell me what to order.

THANKS for being patient with my questions.

Randy - 3-17-2017 at 08:26 PM

Ben,

The DFO and Born kites are very similar. The DFO is a NPW - 9 design. There are plans on the web to build various versions of that design. I have built and owned several different sizes of the NPW 9 design. The Born kite is based on the NPW-5. I've built a quite a number of NPW 5 based designs, some are my own adaptations of other designs. I also have the Born 5.5 and 7.0 NS kites.

The NPW 9 design is a higher performing kite. It was designed to fly on handles, but can be adapted to a bar which sacrifices a bit of the capability that handles provide. It is a bit harder to fly well than the Born designs which are designed to be flown on a bar. The Born kite is more docile and forgiving than the NPW 9. The Born kite is meant to be easier to fly and it is. They are both nice kites. I know some experts who don't really like the NPW 9, while others think its great.

It appears that both the Born and DFO kites use the same depower method (scrunching down the nose), and I suspect they both work just about as well. DFO just implemented the nose scrunch a little differently, but it appears to work in exactly the same manner. I've applied this nose scrunch method to my own home brew NPW's that I use with my buggy. I like it because often I can relaunch the kite without any untangling of lines, which can often happen with kite killers attached to one of the brake lines, for example. (I also have the uncanny ability to let go of the handle the kite killer is not attached to when using handles which can create quite a mess).

The term "depower" when applied to the Born kites is a bit misleading. It not like letting up on the throttle of your car when trying to slow down. It is more like turning the engine off completely and coasting to a stop. I have no reason to think the DFO method is any better (or worse.) It is really more of a safety device than an actual depower as used in kitesurfing kites or some of the more expensive and complicated foil designs talked about here.

To implement this a 3 line bar is needed. (However, that can be made by simply drilling a hole in the middle of a two line bar or making some other arrangement to attach a length of parachute cord, or the like.) The 3 rd line (in the center) is attached to a kite killer type leash and the other end is attached to the nose of the kite (through the lines supplied by the kite makers.) Normally, the line is slack for normal flying. To "depower" you just let go of the bar and the kite scrunches up and falls from the sky with the 3rd line still attached to your arm. A lot of times when the gust has abated I just grab the bar and the kite starts flying again. Anyway, you can get a 3 line bar pretty cheap on ebay. As John said above the main function of the "depower" is just to kill the kite when things go south. It will not magically make a 20 MPH gust feel like a 10 MPH gust.

You could probably do just fine with either kite, but expect a steeper learning curve with the DFO. Foils and true depowers are great too, so I'd echo what was said above - go to JIBE and see what set up makes the most sense to you. I've gone the NPW route because I like to build my own kites, but now I've started building conventional and single skin foils so I'm not sticking to just one kite.

Windstruck - 3-18-2017 at 03:17 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Randy  


The term "depower" when applied to the Born kites is a bit misleading. It not like letting up on the throttle of your car when trying to slow down. It is more like turning the engine off completely and coasting to a stop.


Randy really has some good things to say in his thread just above. Man knows his kites. I used to own an entire quiver of Born-Kite NASA Star-2s from their very smallest (1.5m) to very largest (12.5m :o) and flew all of them as three line kites from a bar with 20m lines hooked into a harness while sitting in a buggy. The third line is great to dump all power in emergencies by pulling the safety and disengaging from the bar. It is generally impractical and even dangerous as a form of "depower" when in motion. I was once flying along in my buggy going faster than I wanted to and felt I needed to scrub power for safety. The problem is that when you scrunch the nose it makes the kite fly inefficiently and it will drop backwards in the wind window relative to you as the rider. In a sense think of the kite being a tad in front of you and then creeping back until it is behind you but you are still moving quickly forward in the buggy. The kite went back, back, back and eventually tumbled to the ground a bit behind me. I let go of the third line slack I had pulled in (maybe about two feet of line and WHAM! The kite inflated and surged forward to its original position. Almost slammed into a fence and goal post. Also nearly a Code Brown.

I'm just saying that the 3rd line on a B-K NS is great for dumping all power when buggying but not a good call for bleeding off a little power when going too fast. That is when something like a Peak shines. If going too fast for comfort you simply let the bar out a few inches and power bleeds right off. Total throttle down sort of feeling.

My quiver has been reworked as a buggy-only quiver with safety in mind and is far from a high performance set up. Peaks and Long-Star2s for buggying and my three NS3s for static handle flying when I (very occasionally) go to the beach and like to sink my toes in the sand and get pulled around. Naw, it ain't sexy, but it keeps me buggying. :karate:

Randy - 3-18-2017 at 05:22 AM

I've had one of those "sudden burst of power" things happen as well when I was not expecting it. A scary moment for sure. Best to simply coast to a stop or slow speed, wait for the gust to pass and then re-inflate the kite.


oldben - 3-18-2017 at 07:19 AM

OK

Heres my current thinking. Since Im ordering I can probably get a second kite thrown in for the same shipping
cost.

My order will be a DFO 5.5 depower with their 3 line bar and lines(R2F basically). The bar and lines look nicely done and are cheap enough. Wont have to rob my 3m HQ Rush Pro of its set up.

A second smaller kite either a 3.5 or a 4.5. Im leaning towards the 4.5.

If I did the conversion to Euros and tax removal correctly this will only come to $312-321 shipped for a basic quiver. Certainly reasonable enough for what you get.

Finally since I a noob I wont know if these kites will fly better or worse than anything else. I will just learn to use em and like em, leaving the finer critique to you accomplished flyers. I also still have the 3 and 5m foils. I bought a PL cross over for the 5m Beamer.

Now I can work both sides of the street so to speak.

Randy - 3-18-2017 at 07:28 AM

Hope you get it in time for JIBE. I would like to see how they do the depower.

Prussik - 3-18-2017 at 09:17 AM

When it comes to refinement both NS and DFO Nasas are both very simple and easily modifiable kites. I would say DFO are more refined on the account of the adjustable bridle and rather nicer depower line connections. NS have nicer bags. The fabric on DFO seems to be a little thinner which may be of some consequence if ab(used) in abrasive environment.

I would not even consider a non- depowerable version of DFO Nasa. The price differential is minimal and the depower is quite effective if used with proper bridle adjustments, extending the power range. It is also your safety line if you let go of the bar. I use NS and now DFO depowered a lot without any control issues, with good upwind performance and good power modulation AFTER bridle adjustments which are much easier to do on DFO. I don't see any difference in flying difficulty of DFO vs NS. The complaints about the nose depower being useless originate, I presume, from the fact that Nasas, in their off the shelf configuration, have a tendency of flying backwards at times as a result of too steep AOA and too much trailing edge pull - the factors which also negatively affect the window width. If you combine these with the collapsed nose the effect may be as described by a few of the above postings degrading the value of the depower. Nothing that can't be taken care of by bridle adjustment. Of course there is a limit of how much depower you can have and use effectively.

Bladerunner - 3-18-2017 at 11:27 AM

Getting going with a set of DFO's won't be too bad. If you get them soon enough that you are familiar with them by JIBE you can spend less time trying to be hands on with different kites and more time with your :moon: in a buggy.

I completely agree that you can't miss what you don't know. That said, talk with the folks who are flying Peaks. Most of them will have hands on experience with NASA wings.

I am not 100% clear on what turns you off about depower? Something of note is the adjustable stopper on the LS2. You can use it to limit the bar throw. When cruising the beach you can lock it in at the perfect power setting and fly with pretty much no bar pressure / hands free. You will also be able to get to that state with a DFO but only if you have made the perfect choice for the day and the wind doesn't change as you travel.

Prussik - 3-18-2017 at 01:44 PM

I don't use bars but one thing that immediately comes to mind is that if you limit the bar travel (which is easy to do) then you better make sure that you have a reliable QR and know how to use it - instinctively.

John Holgate - 3-18-2017 at 02:42 PM

I think the 4.5m and 5.5m might be a bit close in size - I think you'd be better served with the 3.5m and 5.5m.

Randy - 3-18-2017 at 05:21 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Prussik  
I use NS and now DFO depowered a lot without any control issues, with good upwind performance and good power modulation AFTER bridle adjustments which are much easier to do on DFO.


That makes me even more anxious to see Ben's DFO's at JIBE.

Ed Cline - 3-19-2017 at 04:22 AM

Mr Born sells a bar conversion kit. 50.00. You can adapt a bar with a hole in it to fly the depower NASA kites. I used most of the parts, and a naked fusion bar from eBay.
Any round hole or slotted would work.


oldben - 3-19-2017 at 06:50 AM

OK John

Will go with the 5.5 and 3.5 depowers. I guess the smaller compact size of the kites compared to a foil belies their pulling
power. Watching a vid of Mr Cline(I think, watched so many) being pulled while sitting convinced me.

So from what has been said here flying the Nasa in some degree of depower(scrunched nose) is good or bad? As was said they dont "throttle" like a foil or LEI. So if thats the case depower is really used as a form of power trim? If so then why fly the depower bar? A three liner with adjustable trim on the center line should do fine? Not trying to open any debuts here but just understand.

Thats a fine looking bar that was converted. I have two LEI depowers I could convert one also. However it would seem a trimable 3 liner would work just fine for changing wind conditions generally. I guess a depower bar handles trim constantly but requires constant attention(holding).

Im contemplating maybe using one of the chicken loops off the LEI bars. It has a swivel This would allow turning the bar to remove twists and would anchor only in the center allowing more bar travel compared to a loop. I believe I saw a DFO 3 line bar having an eyelet above the bar for the 3rd line? If so I maybe be able to anchor the chicken loop thru the eyelet(and around the bar) and still have room for the 3rd line to pass. I can certainly convert a standard 2 line bar to do this. I havent dug the LEI bar out to see exactly how its mounted but there is a jam cleat on it somewhere. Would be nice it it could be used to trim the 3rd line.

Is my thinking skewed? Straighten me out!

Hope to order early in the week so would like to really know the best way to go. I have no problem buying the DFO depower bar as its plug n play, but dont want to if I really can fly a modded 3 liner with trim.



Windstruck - 3-19-2017 at 07:19 AM

Ben,

If you are going with Born-Kite NASA Stars (in any version) than what you are looking to do is something similar in concept to what Ed just posted. The power lines (one left, one right) will be secured to the outer tips of the bar. The third central line will pass through the center of the bar. This third central line will not have tension on it during normal flight. The actual line going through the bar is not the same line as is going out to the kite; rather, it is a piece of line that can be manipulated for length with a series of knots out at the end, spaced to provide the right amount of length to the third central line such that when the outer power lines are taught under load the third central line has just a touch of give to it. Loose enough not to scrunch the nose but snug enough not to hang far under the power lines during flight. You'll find that different size NS kites need different length central lines which is why you have a couple of knots out there.

Next, you will need a "trapeze". This is a chicken loop of sorts that secures to the bar and is not the same as an LEI chicken loop. This trapeze needs to have a quick release or you'll be anchored to the bar. Nope, don't want that.

During flight, when you want to scrunch the nose you pull in the central line with your hand. Born has a little block and tackle system for this that incorporates the yellow ball and long rectangular metal ring shown in Ed's picture, though not assembled like that. If you need to bail during flight you pull the quick release on the trapeze and let go of the bar. Assuming you've got the central line attached to your harness the bar will fly up the lines and the kite will flag on its central line. Final point, Born has a little stopper that gets installed on the piece of line that goes through the center of the bar that only lets the bar travel up the line enough to flag out the kite, but not so much as to invert the wing. That can cause quite the rats nest.

Good luck!

oldben - 3-19-2017 at 07:59 AM

Thanks for the excellent explanation WS!

I think my understanding is on the same page as your explanation.

The trapeze is the same as a loops I see for sale on the net? I think understand the differences of the 3 line bar vs the depower bar.
If I am correct the bar above is a trimable 3 liner with a safety that dumps the kite thru the 3rd line. Correct? Thats what Im thinking I want to fly. The depower constantly works the nose of the kite as well as control the flying. Correct?.

If the Nasa is not classically depowerable whats the advantage of the depower bar other than constant nose trim?
I am assuming depowering on both bars is the same, manipulation of the nose. One bar does it constantly while the other has only adjustable depower(trim). I am assuming the depower is flown all the way out and is pulled in to reduce power. Backwards from the LEI kites?

What this comes down to as which bar I want to order. Im thinking just the 3 line, which I will loop(trapeze) and build in a form of take up of the third line for trim. Sound right?





oldben - 3-19-2017 at 08:50 AM

OK Heres my Slingshot Turbo 3 bar.

My idea is to remove the locking tongue from the loop, now I have a trapeze right? Taking the loop shorten the rope(the one in the center) and mount it close to the bar. Rope thru the loop with the black pull will then be gone. Route the small line with the red loop thru the now open guide where the larger rope was. It will stop in the guide above the jam cleat. This is a no trim on the nose line position, to trim the kite just pull the line thru the cleat. The small center line will be worn in some fashion maybe to my harness. Untrap the loop let go of the bar and its pulled from the cleat dumping the kite.

I could add a line/loop to the chicken loops release. In a real emergency I could just jerk it. Im released and the kite is dumped automatically.

Please point out the flaws in my plan, seems too easy.

002.JPG - 72kB

Windstruck - 3-19-2017 at 10:44 AM

Ben,

This is a "trapeze":

[img][/img]

It's the U-shaped loop below the bar. Note that it has a quick release on it as well as a donkey stick. You'll want both. When you use a setup like this you are turning a NS kite into a two line flyer with a safety line. The central third line comes into play when you pull the trapeze release and disengage the bar from your harness. Otherwise your harness is taking the load of your two lines secured to the ends of the bar. I really didn't find that the nose scrunching works well from a practical perspective while moving in a buggy as I described before because it makes the kite fall back in the wind window. The third line is GREAT however for dumping all power and flagging out the kite in an emergency. The right amount of tension in the 3rd central line is just enough to keep the line from sagging far below the outer lines under tension, but not so tight as to deform the nose of the kite.

ssayre - 3-19-2017 at 10:51 AM

Hey oldben I have a set of nasa star 2's. 2.5, 4, 5.5, 7 and a street kite bar and a 3 line bar with long lines and harness trapeze. all born kite stuff.

I would do $500 for all of it if your interested. They are fantastic kites but I have lost the desire and wouldn't mind having a few bucks.

my email is seansayre@gmail.com


ssayre - 3-19-2017 at 10:51 AM

also have a buggy if you need one.

Windstruck - 3-19-2017 at 10:55 AM

Sean (Ssayre) offers some great gear and he keeps his stuff in great condition. His buggy has never even been in the mud (OK, that last bit isn't true). Should that deal not be right for you, what you are looking for is a HQ Harness Loop.

Here is one place you could buy one:

http://www.shadeonme.com/hq-trainer-kite-harness-attachment-...


Here is how you attach them:




oldben - 3-19-2017 at 12:54 PM

All Right a Deal!!

Will email you!

Randy - 3-19-2017 at 05:31 PM

Sean is on our good trader list, and I've done deals with him. I'd have no hesitation to buy from Sean

oldben - 3-20-2017 at 05:36 AM

So waiting to hear from Sean
Sounds like he has exactly what I need. Got $$ waiting!

My take away from the above discussions is jut to fly the Nasa on a three line bar with a trapeze and use the 3rd line as an emergency dump and forget about trim. Right?

If so that greatly simplifies matters.

ssayre - 3-20-2017 at 06:21 AM

Quote: Originally posted by oldben  
So waiting to hear from Sean
Sounds like he has exactly what I need. Got $$ waiting!

My take away from the above discussions is jut to fly the Nasa on a three line bar with a trapeze and use the 3rd line as an emergency dump and forget about trim. Right?

If so that greatly simplifies matters.


that is correct. I sent you an email.

Thanks for the kind words guys.

Sean

Ed Cline - 3-20-2017 at 06:34 AM

Fly the NASA hooked in usually.
When the wind picks up unhook and fly as a depower kite.
When the wind is back under your limit hook in.
The depower is used a lot in gusty wind, and not so much in steady wind.
Depower is very useable to whatever degree you feel comfortable with.

In a fully depowered state the kite will sit up there and wait, at almost no power, but steerable.

The 3 rd line is in use as a depower a lot. It's not just a safety.
It is a safety of course, but I use it when I want my kite to pull less than too much.

The peculiarity of the set up is simply this. You can't depower while hooked in.
Bar pressure as such will be the full weight of the kite while unhooked, and progressively less as you increase the bars throw, or distance from your harness hook.
Hooked in you carry the kite on your harness 100%
Unhooked bar pressure varies with degree of depower.
Familiar?

PS Born Kite strop or harness trapeze isn't as useful as HQs. The Born model comes undone by accident sometimes and can leave you "holding the bar" with no extra hand to reconnect the safety.
If you have this headache, re rig the elastic and tighten it up.

Fair wind.




B-Roc - 3-20-2017 at 06:54 AM

Quote: Originally posted by ssayre  
They are fantastic kites but I have lost the desire and wouldn't mind having a few bucks.



Hey Sean, what have you moved on to?. I don't kite nearly as much as I use to but I'm at the skatepark or longboarding hills every weekend. Do you skate still or have you moved in a totally different direction?

Prussik - 3-20-2017 at 08:45 AM


Quote:

I really didn't find that the nose scrunching works well from a practical perspective while moving in a buggy as I described before because it makes the kite fall back in the wind window.


Here we go again. For the n-th time - it falls back in the window because it has that tendency to begin with. This can be eliminated by bridle adjustments but it is more difficult to find the optimal setting on NS because it involves separating the bridles and adjusting their lengths - not a job for uninitiated. It is easier to do on DFO.

And it is worth remembering that it is impossible to get the best performance from any FB flown on a bar - even more so with Nasas.

ssayre - 3-20-2017 at 08:46 AM

Quote: Originally posted by B-Roc  
Quote: Originally posted by ssayre  
They are fantastic kites but I have lost the desire and wouldn't mind having a few bucks.



Hey Sean, what have you moved on to?. I don't kite nearly as much as I use to but I'm at the skatepark or longboarding hills every weekend. Do you skate still or have you moved in a totally different direction?


I'm not doing either anymore. There is a lot of things around the house I want to catch up on and my daughter will be a senior next year and there are a lot of things I want to focus on other than my hobbies. I may return to both down the road. I have been enjoying making BBQ for friends and family.

B-Roc - 3-20-2017 at 10:50 AM

Quote: Originally posted by ssayre  


I have been enjoying making BBQ for friends and family.


Good to hear. Can't beat good times with Friends and Family.




oldben - 3-21-2017 at 05:09 AM

Ok

Seans hooking me up!

Hope to get a bunch of kite time before Jibe. Maybe yall can interface me to the buggy then?

Windstruck - 3-21-2017 at 07:08 AM

Quote: Originally posted by oldben  
Ok

Seans hooking me up!

Hope to get a bunch of kite time before Jibe. Maybe yall can interface me to the buggy then?


Happy to hear this. We've all gotten to know Sean through this site. He's a good egg and I'm sure has taken superb care of his equipment. Looks by all rights to be a superb grill master to boot, a prized skill in my book.

You may or may not realize this, but the NS2s are really pretty kites, IMHO, nicer looking than the NS3s. I entered the NS fray after Born had launched the NS3 line so I never got to own one but I've always liked their vertical paneling better than the horizontal paneling of the 3rd-gen line. Not sure why he switched.

Sorry to see Sean backing out of power Kiting, and I for one hope to learn of his return in the years to come. I respect how he is prioritizing things. :cool:

Randy - 3-21-2017 at 06:49 PM

Quote: Originally posted by oldben  
Ok

Seans hooking me up!

Hope to get a bunch of kite time before Jibe. Maybe yall can interface me to the buggy then?


Don't forget to join NAPKA.


abkayak - 3-22-2017 at 05:38 AM

i for one am not comfortable w/ Sean selling his stuff...he has obviously lost his mind
nothing a day at WW wouldn't fix
jusayin

oldben - 3-22-2017 at 06:31 AM

I dunno abkayak

Might mean he gets to buy new stuff!

Randy will join NAPKA for sure.

Weather is starting to get nice here was 90 yesterday! Will begin the convectional heating season soon which starts the sea breezes like clock work around 2 oclock (at least in Darien).

Any of you locals ever fly Sapelo?

ssayre - 3-22-2017 at 09:48 AM

I'm not completely out. All I need is a 6-8m fb and a loaner buggy and I'd be good. Still have a special 3m hornet and 4.4 soulfly

JimSSI - 3-22-2017 at 04:58 PM

Ben-

Yeah. Sapelo is one of the few islands with a very decent lowtide east-west beach, handy with south winds.

Bit of a schlep for us, almost faster to take the boat and beach it.

But also a lovely run on the east side with onshore wind.

Ditto Cumberland. North-south beaches thick on the ground around here, huh?

But it's JI that is justly world-famous.

I plan to be on JI on Saturday if you want to motor down and meet up.

oldben - 3-22-2017 at 06:55 PM

So
Randy, Jason, and Spencer, Sean says Im to buy yall a beer at Jibe. Maybe I will just bring a bunch, if yall dont have to drive anywhere.

JimSSI

Definitely would like to meet up Saturday. Just let me know where and when.

Sapelo is not far from me. I go to the island often doing volunteer work. When we finish early I always head for the beach. The reason Im trying the landboard is so I can take a kite and it on the ferry. Buggy might be a problem. I live on Black Island so its a 20/25 min boat ride in my boat.

Mathew worked the beaches over a bit but its still a big wide N/S run on the east. South end is good but not near as expansive.
Due to the limited public access the beaches are almost always empty excepting weddings and special bookings.

The DNR keeps a pretty tight reign on the place but it is possible maybe to get a custom"tour" for a few kiters. Gosh knows the Island could use some kind of "tourist" influx of $$. I love the place!

oldben - 3-22-2017 at 07:10 PM

A big thanks to Sean for the sale of the nice quiver of kites and the buggy!!!

I sold a rather expensive aerial photag rig today.

So with the inflow of capital I set the folks at DFO to sending me a Nasa 9 4.4m depower complete with their "Nasa Bar".
Picked a bad time to buy as the goings on in government upset the markets and the $/euro exchange rate. Could have bought it cheaper last week. Still cost less shipped than the common 3m ish trainer kites. Im curious how this kite will fly.

Now, enlighten me. I had assumed the depower scrunched the nose and assumed again I could do this with a 3line bar. I saw a vid that indicates the bridals are split to do this. Right?

If so I never realized this and might have appeared a bit "rock headed" about Nasa depowering insisting on using the nose line for trim and depower.

Is this the case?

Windstruck - 3-23-2017 at 05:35 AM

Quote: Originally posted by oldben  
A big thanks to Sean for the sale of the nice quiver of kites and the buggy!!!

I sold a rather expensive aerial photag rig today.

So with the inflow of capital I set the folks at DFO to sending me a Nasa 9 4.4m depower complete with their "Nasa Bar".
Picked a bad time to buy as the goings on in government upset the markets and the $/euro exchange rate. Could have bought it cheaper last week. Still cost less shipped than the common 3m ish trainer kites. Im curious how this kite will fly.

Now, enlighten me. I had assumed the depower scrunched the nose and assumed again I could do this with a 3line bar. I saw a vid that indicates the bridals are split to do this. Right?

If so I never realized this and might have appeared a bit "rock headed" about Nasa depowering insisting on using the nose line for trim and depower.

Is this the case?


If you are referring to the three line bar and NS2s that Sean just sold you, then the answer is "it depends". I see you bought his buggy too (with the construction site mud washed off I hope :D ) so let's assume for this discussion that you have your (not so old) seat meat in the buggy and one of his kites in the air. NS2s are bridled for a left and right power line and a central line for the nose. The bridling can be further split for handled flying but that takes out the center.

Based on what you've said about your hand I'm further thinking you are using a harness and have hooked in. This means that the outer power lines are fixed and the center line will sag out to the kite, hopefully with just the right amount of tension to make it readily available but not applying any pressure to the nose of the kite in normal operation. The only way you will be able to adjust tension in the middle line will be to reach out, grab the ball and pull it towards you. You will have to hold the ball in to keep it in.

Here's the rub, and we've discussed this before. Born NS kites sit deep in the wind window naturally. This means it will seem almost next to you when moving in a buggy as compared to sort of next to / in front of you. Clock dial at 5:30 instead of 4:30 with 12:00 being in front of you. As such you get a lot of side pull combined with front pull with an NS while buggying. Any manipulation of the nose during flight and motion will compound this problem, dropping the kite further back. I for one just don't think this works well. Others may well disagree with me and that's great.

Not trying to cut off your discussion, but I believe many of your questions will best be answered by actual seat time. I remember noodling and noodling over things in the theoretical before actually moving. Once I got going I was able to learn from actual experience. Hard, if not impossible, to beat that.

One bit of advice: practice quickly grabbing the release on the chicken loop and try to convince yourself it is OK to use it. When you need it things will have gotten, err, "busy" and you will do yourself well to know what to do. Several of my worst crashes in the buggy came as a result of me trying to fly out of something when pulling the ripcord would have been far wiser in retrospect. Yes, you will crash. Just try not to be bull headed like your friend in Utah. :karate:


Windstruck - 3-23-2017 at 05:35 AM

Quote: Originally posted by oldben  
A big thanks to Sean for the sale of the nice quiver of kites and the buggy!!!

I sold a rather expensive aerial photag rig today.

So with the inflow of capital I set the folks at DFO to sending me a Nasa 9 4.4m depower complete with their "Nasa Bar".
Picked a bad time to buy as the goings on in government upset the markets and the $/euro exchange rate. Could have bought it cheaper last week. Still cost less shipped than the common 3m ish trainer kites. Im curious how this kite will fly.

Now, enlighten me. I had assumed the depower scrunched the nose and assumed again I could do this with a 3line bar. I saw a vid that indicates the bridals are split to do this. Right?

If so I never realized this and might have appeared a bit "rock headed" about Nasa depowering insisting on using the nose line for trim and depower.

Is this the case?


If you are referring to the three line bar and NS2s that Sean just sold you, then the answer is "it depends". I see you bought his buggy too (with the construction site mud washed off I hope :D ) so let's assume for this discussion that you have your (not so old) seat meat in the buggy and one of his kites in the air. NS2s are bridled for a left and right power line and a central line for the nose. The bridling can be further split for handled flying but that takes out the center.

Based on what you've said about your hand I'm further thinking you are using a harness and have hooked in. This means that the outer power lines are fixed and the center line will sag out to the kite, hopefully with just the right amount of tension to make it readily available but not applying any pressure to the nose of the kite in normal operation. The only way you will be able to adjust tension in the middle line will be to reach out, grab the ball and pull it towards you. You will have to hold the ball in to keep it in.

Here's the rub, and we've discussed this before. Born NS kites sit deep in the wind window naturally. This means it will seem almost next to you when moving in a buggy as compared to sort of next to / in front of you. Clock dial at 5:30 instead of 4:30 with 12:00 being in front of you. As such you get a lot of side pull combined with front pull with an NS while buggying. Any manipulation of the nose during flight and motion will compound this problem, dropping the kite further back. I for one just don't think this works well. Others may well disagree with me and that's great.

Not trying to cut off your discussion, but I believe many of your questions will best be answered by actual seat time. I remember noodling and noodling over things in the theoretical before actually moving. Once I got going I was able to learn from actual experience. Hard, if not impossible, to beat that.

One bit of advice: practice quickly grabbing the release on the chicken loop and try to convince yourself it is OK to use it. When you need it things will have gotten, err, "busy" and you will do yourself well to know what to do. Several of my worst crashes in the buggy came as a result of me trying to fly out of something when pulling the ripcord would have been far wiser in retrospect. Yes, you will crash. Just try not to be bull headed like your friend in Utah. :karate:


JimSSI - 3-23-2017 at 08:08 AM

Maybe we explain to the nice DNR folks that below the high tide mark is public, and that all things not prohibited are compulsory?

Low tide Saturday at 1:30 - SSE wind is predicted , which sucks. Rain is forecast, which sucks more.

Fingers crossed.

Quote: Originally posted by oldben  
So
Randy, Jason, and Spencer, Sean says Im to buy yall a beer at Jibe. Maybe I will just bring a bunch, if yall dont have to drive anywhere.

JimSSI

Definitely would like to meet up Saturday. Just let me know where and when.

Sapelo is not far from me. I go to the island often doing volunteer work. When we finish early I always head for the beach. The reason Im trying the landboard is so I can take a kite and it on the ferry. Buggy might be a problem. I live on Black Island so its a 20/25 min boat ride in my boat.

Mathew worked the beaches over a bit but its still a big wide N/S run on the east. South end is good but not near as expansive.
Due to the limited public access the beaches are almost always empty excepting weddings and special bookings.

The DNR keeps a pretty tight reign on the place but it is possible maybe to get a custom"tour" for a few kiters. Gosh knows the Island could use some kind of "tourist" influx of $$. I love the place!

ssayre - 3-23-2017 at 08:53 AM


One bit of advice: practice quickly grabbing the release on the chicken loop and try to convince yourself it is OK to use it. When you need it things will have gotten, err, "busy" and you will do yourself well to know what to do. Several of my worst crashes in the buggy came as a result of me trying to fly out of something when pulling the ripcord would have been far wiser in retrospect. Yes, you will crash. Just try not to be bull headed like your friend in Utah. :karate:

[/rquote]

good advice from windstruck. I did use the release semi-frequently in my gusty wind. better safe than sorry.

3shot - 3-23-2017 at 09:50 AM

Ben, are you in for the whole week at JIBE?

I also had a full set of NASA Star 2s and are very familiar with them in the buggy. Looking forward to meeting you.

oldben - 3-23-2017 at 03:06 PM

Thanks windstruck, great explanation and advice, I have thought about it twice as much(hehe).
Definitely going to be harnessed and will definitely become familiar with bailing.

I hope Sean left the hardwire(?) I like that idea on down the road

JimSSI Saturday doesnt look too great, have to wait and see.

I flew South Dunes today with my 2.2 Symphony(read 1.6sqm). Winds NNE. The windmeter indicated 16 sustained with a measured gust around 22. Im sure some were higher later on. I had enough judgement to leave the 3msq Slingshot in the car, the little kite provided plenty of work out and a few small scuds. Had a blast parking the kite down by the water on the left wing tip then ripping it right just over the sand thru the window. Thats when I got the mini scud. My dear bride tried her hand at it and promptly drilled the poor thing into the hard pack by doing the "car type steering"(I warned her). Tough little kite!

We should ponder Sapelo. its untapped. You are right is is accessible/useable beach wise by private boat.

3shot(sounds like my wifes drinks).

I hope to be at Jibe as much as my aged body will allow me. Hope to see you there!

The DFO folks got the depower 4.4 in the wind so to speak today the tracking# shows. Hope to have it by Jibe.

In all this stuff, what I thought was a large foil turns out to be a paraglider.
Anybody game? Maybe we could fly it as a large(very) kite at Jibe.

Randy - 3-23-2017 at 05:10 PM

Maybe this should have its own thread, but I think it pretty spot on to this conversation here. Today I had my first OBE, despite use of kite killers and the "Nose scrunch" system. It was my own fault since I got sloppy. I installed the nose scrunch depow method on my NPW's. I'd been using a 2.9 M NPW 21 and then switched to a 2.8 M NPW 9b - trying to see which I like best. To make the method work, you have to get the 3rd line the right length so that it will kill the kite -dead. So while I had the length correct for the 21, I should have shortened it for the 9b, but I didn't in my haste.

So, I get loaded up, and was starting to think I should bail (let go of the bar) when I think it went on its own anyway. Suddenly we are going sideways, and I'm being drug on the ground. Now I normally try to keep the kite killer lose enough to slip off my hand, in such situations. But this time it didn't happen until I was drug across the ground a ways.

This vid shows a couple of points. 1,) How quick it all happens. 2.) The kite crumpling up, then reinflating because the line was too long to actually kill it (instead of just pissing it off). 3.) Me getting drug because I was leashed to the kite. Bear in mind this was only a 2.8 M kite.

This isn't quite the same scenario as Windstruck describes, but it is similar.




3shot - 3-23-2017 at 05:22 PM

Ouch! Good soundtrack though Randy.

I had color coded my line corresponding to the kite I was flying. Kinda missing my Stars a little... :(

Windstruck - 3-23-2017 at 05:56 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Randy  
Maybe this should have its own thread, but I think it pretty spot on to this conversation here. Today I had my first OBE, despite use of kite killers and the "Nose scrunch" system. It was my own fault since I got sloppy. I installed the nose scrunch depow method on my NPW's. I'd been using a 2.9 M NPW 21 and then switched to a 2.8 M NPW 9b - trying to see which I like best. To make the method work, you have to get the 3rd line the right length so that it will kill the kite -dead. So while I had the length correct for the 21, I should have shortened it for the 9b, but I didn't in my haste.

So, I get loaded up, and was starting to think I should bail (let go of the bar) when I think it went on its own anyway. Suddenly we are going sideways, and I'm being drug on the ground. Now I normally try to keep the kite killer lose enough to slip off my hand, in such situations. But this time it didn't happen until I was drug across the ground a ways.

This vid shows a couple of points. 1,) How quick it all happens. 2.) The kite crumpling up, then reinflating because the line was too long to actually kill it (instead of just pissing it off). 3.) Me getting drug because I was leashed to the kite. Bear in mind this was only a 2.8 M kite.

This isn't quite the same scenario as Windstruck describes, but it is similar.





Glad you aren't an extra now on The Walking Dead. That's power Kiting for you. Everything is fine right up to the instant when it isn't. Reinflation of a NPW is a beiatch.

oldben - 3-24-2017 at 05:22 AM

Wow great vid! Especially for us noobs that dont realize the power involved in this sport. Im taking it more seriously.

From flying I always learned to do a very through preflight. Some times it just gets you. I let a passenger out one time turned around to head back home with out getting out for a break(should have). The kicker was I should have paid more attention to the fact he had to close the door twice, actually slam it the last time. Once airborne and up to a bit of speed all hell broke loose. Talk about brown trousers wondering what it is and how long before the airframe gives up! After getting my butt on the ground as fast as I could I discovered the seat belt had been left outside the door beating hell out of the fuselage(big repair). Had a buddy have an even bigger time not latching the cowling properly!

So question: why not strap the killer to the buggy frame? If you bail you are out of the fray(directly).

Randy - 3-24-2017 at 05:53 AM

I think you are in worse shape then. You might just become a passenger in a buggy that is careening and tumbling to doom.

acampbell - 3-24-2017 at 06:14 AM

Somehow it's always the little kites that spank you the hardest. Oldben we have a lot in common. Gotta get you down to Jekyll soon now that the seabreezes are cranking up.

oldben - 3-25-2017 at 05:50 AM

That would be great AC!

Hope to have some of the stuff Sean has sent me today. I screwed up the zip on my address by interchanging #s(have a bit of dyslexia) and some of it went to Atlanta. Hopefully they can figure Darien is not in the metro area!

Sean has gone above and beyond being helpful from his end with this!

Once all the stuff is in and sorted thru Im ready to get rolling literally.

So flying the small foil the other day in higher winds I can really appreciate the finer flying characteristics of a 4liner.
Being able to back the kite down would have been nice! Thinking maybe after a good deal of time on the bar my left hand may strengthen, got a real work out the other day!

Could a Rush Pro V(3 lines) be converted to 4 lines? It has brake bridles that are linked. Would it fly as a 4liner on handles? Maybe I could convert this to handles and try it out as its really 2.7msq as I remember and would be a good size to try on. Plus its already bought!

eric67m - 3-25-2017 at 07:46 AM

When I had it I tried to modify my three line Hq rush 4 pro 350 too fly with four lines on handles. It kind of worked but was always not quite right compared to my hq alpha 2.5. I tried multiple points for attaching the back two brake lines to the like but it always crumpled (or didn't) oddly when the brakes were applied. Eventually I sold it and picked up a pdk buster soulfly pro 3.3 from big kid.

Windstruck - 3-25-2017 at 08:12 AM

(not-so-old)ben: Great news that you are feeling like you may be able to develop the hand strength to do some handled flying! You may not have been thinking about this, but the NASA STAR-2s rushing your way from Sean can be rigged to fly off of handles quite nicely. What you want are some Z-Bridles. These are easy to mock up yourself or Steffen sells them here:

http://www.venturi-power.de/index.php?cat=c66_other-products...

I have my three small NS3s rigged with these exact Z-bridles and they fly great. The way a Z-bridle works is they allow the NPW to be flown off of all the bridles split left to right (like a two-line kite) with all the tension coming through the top lines coming into the tops of the handles. Once you have the tension right in the brake lines you can engage just a few bridles at the base of the kite by flexing the handles back just like you'd do with continuously split bridles. Of course it is possible to just split the bridles and run the brake lines right to them. I've tried it both ways and I for one prefer the control of the Z-bridles over the setup without them. Here is how you split the bridles (picture is for NS3s but will be the same for the NS2s you're getting, or close enough):

[img][/img]

Even with Z-Bridles installed you can still fly the NS2s or NS3s off of the standard 3-line bar. With the handles you'll be engaging all the main bridles but NOT the bridling for the nose of the kite that the 3rd line would normally be attached to. In that case you just leave the yellow pigtail attached to the nose of the kite (there's a little spot for it). When flying off of the 3-line bar, you hook the yellow center pigtail to the center line and just combine the Z-bridle pigtails together, in essence taking it out of the picture. Easy peasy, nice and easy!

oldben - 3-25-2017 at 08:38 AM

Thanks yall for the input and advice!

I had been looking at the Alpha. Its certainly reasonable enough in cost. I want to be able to fly foils as well as Nasa kites.
Guess the Rush will wind up on ebay.
Im inclined to buy the 3.5 Alpha its only about $25 more than the 2.5. The reasoning is once Im able to fly the handles a 3.5 may be used more in this area. Seems like a good compromise between a big and small kite. About to run out of kite money, but probably can squeeze enough out for this kite. If I cant handle the handles, I can put it on the PL cross over bar I have.

Thoughts?

Wind struck thanks for the input on the Nasa! Drawing explains a lot!

I had read about the Z bridles but since I had not really considered being able to fly handles didnt really pursue the idea. Now that I understand the concept and realize that Seans kites can be rigged that way Im sold on trying a Nasa on handles after I get a bit of bar time(love hanging out at the bar!).

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