10m 4-line set for line extensions

WANTED: I would like to buy new or used a nice set of 10m lines (four) to be used as line extensions for my 12m Peak-2 for just those days when it only seems as if the wing flaps of small birds is creating the wind around me.

I'm open to lengths other than exactly 10m.

Some wonderful new flying options are opening up to me 45 minutes from home (thanks to slapbasswoody) putting long lines back into play.

Quote: Originally posted by Windstruck

WANTED: I would like to buy new or used a nice set of 10m lines (four) to be used as line extensions for my 12m Peak-2 for just those days when it only seems as if the wing flaps of small birds is creating the wind around me. I'm open to lengths other than exactly 10m. Some wonderful new flying options are opening up to me 45 minutes from home (thanks to slapbasswoody) putting long lines back into play.

I'll have a look through my bag of bits Steve, I might have some spare lines.

Someone may well correct me, but the use of line extensions produces more traction than original line length. In the case in point, viz., putting 10m line extensions onto my stock 21m lines (call it a 50% increase in length) will allow the kite to sit slightly further forward in the wind window thus changing the angle of pull relative to me sitting in my buggy. I suspect the angles between me, the kite, and the wind direction vector (in a sense, the triangle you would draw in solving the force mechanics in the situation) remain the same irrespective of line length, but importantly, the triangle if you will gets larger the longer the lines get. The length of the side of the triangle of interest (the forward force vector) gets longer meaning it gets larger creating more pull. 100m lines would be even more powerful, etc.

The price? You need a lot of room to play like on a wide open beach or a playa surface like Alvord in OR or Ivanpah in CA/NV. The other big price you pay is control of the kite. As the pilot you are limited by changing the angle of the bar or maybe reaching up and grabbing a line and pulling it towards you. Longer lines would make this relative input lower than shorter lines. The net result is a sluggish kite.

For my purposes, eking out some extra juice in low wind conditions in a wide open space I suspect I'll be alright. I'm looking to set a tack line, do some park and ride flying and then making a big turn at the end, and I think this setup will work for that.

I'd be most interested to hear from others that truly understand the physics here to confirm what I've said, or equally likely, set me straight.

Quote: Originally posted by nate76

By putting longer lines on your kite, you are effectively increasing the distance the kite travels along its arc during each power stroke, and it spends more time in the power zone with each stroke. If you think about it, if you double the radius (line length), you will also double the circumference of a circle (the path that the kite follows). So longer lines allow you to keep the kite flying along a nice long arc developing good power for a longer period of time, and minimize the amount of sine-ing you need to do. One other advantage is that getting the kite up higher will often get it into cleaner, stronger wind. The downside is that your turn speed will also slow down. But sometimes that is a fair trade.

Nate - thanks for weighing in here!

What you are saying makes great sense, particularly for static flying and sining while in motion. What remains unclear for me based solely on your explanation is how line length would affect park and ride propulsive force when in motion. In that setting distance flown within a wind window is a non-factor as the kite's relative position in the wind window remains unchanged since the whole wind window moves with the rider. In the park and ride I'm still thinking my explanation is relevant, but maybe I'm off here. Others?

Not sure I have this right, but this is what I mean:





Here, the longer the lines the larger the resultant force vector propelling the kite forward and thus the rider. Again, I could be totally wrong about this.

Quote: Originally posted by Windstruck

Not sure I have this right, but this is what I mean: Here, the longer the lines the larger the resultant force vector propelling the kite forward and thus the rider. Again, I could be totally wrong about this.

In the real world it doesn't work that way.
The kite will only go so far into the window. Shorter or longer lines won't change that. Loooonger lines will retard or reduce the window because the lines bow or drag making the window smaller.

Quote: Originally posted by Windstruck

Best not quit my day job! :P

Hahaha, I quit my day job and it only led to more trouble. You've heard the statement, idle hands is the devils workshop? :saint::evil:

@Feyd. I agree with the shorter-longer line nutshell to a point. I'm not real good with depower and have limited time on the bar. As for fixed bridle the nutshell is off a bit.
Short lines and big kites make less power and faster kites, small kites makes less power and less control. I haven't spent a lot of time with small kites and short lines except when static flying.
Long lines and big kites makes more power and slower response because of the distance the kite has to travel. The kite has the same speed whether small or big as before, it just takes up to 3 times the distance to travel making it seem slow.
Here's the odd part. High winds with 30m lines and a 2m kite is like a bumble bee on steroids, now add 60m lines to the 2m and it is a tame 2m kite as if it was a 10mph day on 30m lines. The longer lines makes the window 3 times the distance to travele and create more drag on the kite than it can handle and slows it down quite a bit. At this point the power remains on the low side. I can't explain why as I have only begun to explore the long lines/small kite buggy riding.
So the size makes a difference as the kite gets smaller in the opposite direction as with big kites. Basically Chris is right.

Quote: Originally posted by awindofchange

Windstruck, what strength did you need the extensions in? I can make up some Q-power for you in 10meter lengths. I have 200#, 300# and 600# in bulk.

Kent - I appreciate the offer! Earlier today I placed an order at the site suggested by rtz further up in this thread.

Quote: Originally posted by bigkid

I was at ivanpah when the wind wasn't blowing at all. I launched my 12m century on 90m lines and took a few steps backwards and as the kite got to about a 45 degree angle to the ground I was scudding across the lakebed. As I left the ground like being in a hot air balloon I wasn't hooked in and I was thinking if I let go of the handles I would end up with a 1200 foot long rats nest. It took about a minute to inch my fingers out to the brake end of the handles and the kite began its 1 1/2 minute fall to earth. Zero wind on the ground and my guess was up on top it was 15-20 mph. It was at about 100 feet when the wind showed up, not a good place to fly the kite in any condition. You never fly with the kite at the zenith, you keep it as low as possible. I then swapped the 12 for a 5.5m and tried again. This time I only got about 5 feet off the ground instead of 15 feet. Up at 300 feet the wind was quite steady, at about 200 it was a little bumpy and at about 75 feet it dropped of to zero. There's nothing sweeter than splashing through the surf in the buggy passing cars 100 feet away and watching the drivers looking for the kite that 200 feet the other Side of them scooting across the top of the trees. At the beach it's a little different because of the dunes and trees. The wind shows up at about 100 feet and a bit lower as you get closer to the dunes/trees. I don't like the high flying on long lines because you can't see or feel the wind as easy as with 30m lines. Everything is a bit slower in every aspect.

Jeff - awesome tale and quite hairball to boot. I suspect that was a bit of a Code Brown moment there for a while. Agreed, had you let go of those lines you might still be out there to this day untangling.

Haha, try to parapack 90m lines. Actually it's rather simple to wind them onto the handles, a simple trick makes it easy on and easy off.
Code brown it was a couple days before I needed the bathroom.

Major League anti-cease material! Thanks Nate!!

Quote: Originally posted by nate76

Bigkid - thanks for all the input - your making me want to do more fiddling with line lengths. The 300ft lines looked ridiculous. And fun. Steve - Your talk of long lines got me thinking about wind gradients and dynamic soaring. This is slightly off topic, but if you want some more brain anti-cease, you should check it out. I studied it a little bit in school and its pretty fascinating: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_soaring I'm wondering if you could actually apply the idea to kiting where you have a wind gradient with zero wind on the ground but something a little bit more up higher. Applying the dynamic soaring concepts, you should be able to gradually build up airspeed in the kite wing through a succession of kite loops in the same direction. Granted the kite is mostly flying perpendicular to the wind gradient, but there is a component going around the airfoil that is not. Maybe if you already have wind up higher, it really doesn't matter, and maybe the drag in a standard foil kite is so great and the wind gradient so small that the benefits would be negligible. Now I'm just thinking out loud. Probably time for me to leave work too! Enjoy these kind of mental games though- thanks for getting me thinking again. [update: on my drive home I thought about it a little bit more and don't think there's really any benefit to be had for kiting - but whatever. Still kind of an interesting idea]