Power Kite Forum - snow blade question

snow blade question

ssayre - 12-10-2015 at 08:08 AM

I was considering these but have no idea on anything ski related. I probably would have already got them on a whim but the bindings had me puzzled. I've only been skiing a couple times but I remember the bindings being different than these. Will these receive a normal ski boot? They are listed for $100

MotoFoo86 - 12-10-2015 at 08:21 AM

Yes, they will receive a normal ski boot. Unlike an alpine ski binding which uses a loaded spring to create an ejection system so that you don't have 5 feet of wood attached to your feet if you crash, once you put a snow blade on it's on. They do not come off in a crash. With the shorter running length they create much less rotational torque in a crash and therefore don't really need a releasable binding.

If you're thinking of kite use, what i will tell you about riding them is that there is a very very small window for staying over the top of them. To far forward, or back and they come out from under you. They also do not work well on very hard snow, since the edges are so short they have a hard time biting in.

For a $100, they may be worth the chuckles they bring.

Windstruck - 12-10-2015 at 08:30 AM

Sean - one thing I would check is how far apart the bindings spread. They do appear to be adjustable in the picture, but they will only get so wide. Depending on the size of your ski boots they may not fit on the skis. I've never skied on these things but agree in concept with what Moto is saying. It makes sense that they would be useful in a relatively narrow set of conditions, but being as you are in Indiana they may work out. I suspect that you are considering snowkiting at your normal buggy spots. Your snow will probably come in fits and bursts and then hang around a while going through freeze/thaw cycles and getting pretty chopped up and ugly. The smaller the ski the more the ruts, bumps, and crud will affect you. I would think these little sticks would get flung all over the place in janky snow.

Just think about it, janky wind AND janky snow. What a winning combination! :evil:

Just joking around; could be worth a try if you already have ski boots.

MotoFoo86 - 12-10-2015 at 08:39 AM

Every ski blade binding ive ever seen is highly adjustable. I'd gamble that the single screw on the heel and toe plates loosens up a retention system and allows the binding to slide fire and aft.

Janky anything I would say would be a no go, weigh balance is so critical to staying standing that surging kites could easily pull you over.

Janky snow would just hurt, good risk of getting caught in a rut, at speed with non releasing bindings that could be real real bad.

ssayre - 12-10-2015 at 08:43 AM

Thanks guys! I do not have ski boots yet. There is also a decent looking set of rossignal (not sure of spelling) regular skis that are long with regular bindings listed for $70. They are straight long skis. No contour that I can see.

And Steve you nailed what our snow conditions are like. 2 - 6" bursts that can be anything from powder to wet and all in between with crust and ice layers at different times.

Windstruck - 12-10-2015 at 09:06 AM

Quote: Originally posted by ssayre

Thanks guys! I do not have ski boots yet. There is also a decent looking set of rossignal (not sure of spelling) regular skis that are long with regular bindings listed for $70. They are straight long skis. No contour that I can see.

And Steve you nailed what our snow conditions are like. 2 - 6" bursts that can be anything from powder to wet and all in between with crust and ice layers at different times.

Please post a link to the skis and I'll check them out (online) for you. Rossignol

ssayre - 12-10-2015 at 09:08 AM

http://indianapolis.craigslist.org/spo/5310954315.html

thanks again

MotoFoo86 - 12-10-2015 at 09:23 AM

Have you skied before? If not you'll learn much easier on shape skis. Those skis are pretty vintage at this point, I get scared at a certain point mostly that the plastics in the bindings breaks down. Tried to ski my dad's pair at one point and the bindings exploded.

Windstruck - 12-10-2015 at 09:26 AM

Quote: Originally posted by ssayre

http://indianapolis.craigslist.org/spo/5310954315.html

thanks again

Just based on the picture and price they sound like they might do the trick. You might want to check with the seller on their length. I wouldn't think you'd want something less than 180cm in length, but a little shorter wouldn't be a show stopper. Their shape is just right like you said.

Do you have any ski shops around where you live? Unless you get lucky you will likely need to have the bindings remounted. Most older binding systems have a very limited amount of adjustment up and down the ski once they are screwed into the skis. Those skis might be 20 years old. Hard to tell from that small a picture, but the bindings appear to be Solomon (brand). They would have very little adjustment in the toe piece but a decent amount in the heel, so you might get lucky. You might ask what size boots he used with them. If you are close to the same size you could get lucky and not need to remount, just adjust them.

Another thing about old bindings is their reliability of releasing them just when you really want them to release. Like the discussions we read about with Doom Wheel skates, the longer the levers the more torque you can apply to your body in a twisting fall. And yes, you will fall. A lot.

Assuming you have a ski shop then I'd have them test the release for peace of mind even if you don't need them remounted. Ski shops have a special machine for this.

And you thought you were just picking up a pair of $70 skis, right? I'm not trying to overthink this for you, rather just looking out for you. An ACL is a crappy thing to tear. Personally, I'm generally comfortable with pretty much any age ski but not any age binding without having them checked in a shop.

MotoFoo86 - 12-10-2015 at 09:30 AM

Just checked those bindings are no longer indemnified by Salomon. This means alot of shops will refuse to touch them.

skimtwashington - 12-10-2015 at 09:34 AM

I would get a regular pair of ski...for that same $100 or so.

Ditto..if you have to use downhill boots anyway.

B-Roc - 12-10-2015 at 09:56 AM

Quote: Originally posted by MotoFoo86

Just checked those bindings are no longer indemnified by Salomon. This means alot of shops will refuse to touch them.

Any shop that would touch them should not be considered reputable. They are putting money ahead of safety and reputation. That's not to mean that they shouldn't be touched. I have adjusted and remounted enough bindings for both myself and my kids that were and weren't indemnified to know that just because the binding has "expired" does not mean its no longer fit for certain types of use. But I've been skiing for close to 40 years so I'm no stranger to the gear.

Out of curiosity, where did you find the list of what is still indemnified? I'm looking at a couple used sets of skis for my son to beat up in our backyard slide park this winter. One set he likes is a bit older and I'm wondering if I'll need to remount the bindings or if a shop will.

ssayre - 12-10-2015 at 10:06 AM

I have only skied a couple times and crashed hard as soon as I got off the bunny hill. Last year I didn't even try to leaving the bunny hill

I left the real hills to my daughter who seemed to have no problem self teaching herself and zipping down the lift required hills.

Funny story for you ski guys. Last new year's day was the last time we went to a ski resort (down by Cincinnati). I saw several employees of the resort around the bunny slopes doing various things and I happened to see a small group of people taking instruction from one of the employees. I joined the group doing the various practice things he was having them do with their skis. finally the instructor stopped and was giving me an awkward look and asked who I was. It just then dawned on me that I was intruding on a private lesson that others had paid for. :lol:

I previously thought they were just around doing random lessons for everyone's benefit. :lol:

Anyways, I apologized and they had a good laugh.

I will definitely heed the advice of having a shop check out my bindings and if they will not work on them, I will use my best judgement as to how to adjust and/or replace if they seem compromised. However, one thing that will work in my favor is I will be on flat ground and I will be able to confidently control my speed with my kite skills. Something that I'm not able to do downhill and would not want to be on possibly compromised equipment. Also, I don't see myself attempting any type of speed more than 10-15 mph until I get skiing fundamentals down. In other words I'm hoping/guessing binding failure will be less damaging versus downhill.

My boot size will be 12 or mondo 30 i think.

B-Roc - 12-10-2015 at 12:58 PM

When buying used skis one of the more important measurements to be aware of for the bindings is boot sole length (not mondo). The boot sole length is always marked on the bottom or side of the boot sole. If you ask the person you are buying used skis from what boot size (mondo) they fit the bindings for that is helpful but knowing the boot sole length is really helpful so you know if the bindings need to be adjusted by a shop or not.

For instance, if you bought old skis that a shop won't touch anymore but they were mounted for a size 25.5 boot with a sole length of 298mm and you buy a new boot and it is a size 26.5 with a sole length of 310mm, if mounted properly originally, there is probably enough play in the track so you can slide the binding back, adjust the din and forward pressure yourself and you're good to go. However, if the previous boot was a 25.5 / 298mm and you go with your 30/350mm (or whatever it will be) there is likely not enough room to adjust which means remounting which means the binding MUST be indemnified or the shop won't touch it so you have to redrill and mount it yourself. Not super difficult but maybe something you don't want to do.

I don't know what the general rule is for ski shops these days but I think they still mount most bindings such that one can go up a full size mondo and still not have to remount the bindings. I think that translates into something like 15mm of play but it depends on the type of binding and length of track.

rectifier - 12-10-2015 at 02:56 PM

On the original blades, I have a set of similar blades, I paid about $60 for them. They were a great intro to skiing for this snowboarder, as they are nice and short and hard to get all jumbled up. If you can skate, you can ride snowblades.

However, you have to fly on the underpowered side, as they get dragged downwind easily. They start to wobble badly if you get up to a good speed. And if you don't keep the speed down and run into choppy snow... oh boy

I found them to be lots of fun for small areas, though, and a great learning experience for the two plank game.

ssayre - 12-10-2015 at 03:57 PM

Thanks really great advice all around.

I'm not sure if I'll get blades or skis. Leaning a little towards blades just because I don't plan on getting any speed and I think I would like the nimbleness and also the ease at which I could take a couple steps back or "skate" into position if need be. Up to speed or rough stuff the longer ones sound like the clear winners. Also, I like the idea of keeping the blades in the truck at all times for impromptu sessions in my work travels. longer skis would be in the way I have a feeling.

ssayre - 12-10-2015 at 05:29 PM

Done!! For better or worse. I've made a deal for the snow blades and a pair of 12.5 solomon boots that fit the blades for $150 :-)

I don't think I stole them but I don't think it was a terrible deal hopefully. Boots looked in good shape on the pictures??

I've been texting the guy back and forth. He's almost to the point of keeping them and buying kites. :-)

I'm going to ride them like I stole them though :wee:

Windstruck - 12-10-2015 at 05:44 PM

Quote: Originally posted by ssayre

Done!! For better or worse. I've made a deal for the snow blades and a pair of 12.5 solomon boots that fit the blades for $150 :-)

I don't think I stole them but I don't think it was a terrible deal hopefully. Boots looked in good shape on the pictures??

I've been texting the guy back and forth. He's almost to the point of keeping them and buying kites. :-)

I'm going to ride them like I stole them though :wee:

WAY TO GO!!! Welcome to the wonderful world of Snowkiting. Should be a blast for you. Too funny BTW about you "lesson poaching". :lol:

ssayre - 12-10-2015 at 05:46 PM

I know how to do it now. Just look pathetic enough and wear jeans and a non ski jacket and they just kind of tolerate you knowing you don't know any better.

MotoFoo86 - 12-10-2015 at 06:49 PM

B-Roc. I work at a ski resort, just went down to the demo shop at looked at the list lol. I'm sure you could probably google up companies indemnified lists. Something like "Salomon indemnified bindings 2016".

If you have specific binding questions B-roc i'm more than willing to make that walk again and look them up for you.

ssayre - 12-10-2015 at 07:24 PM

Ha, I forgot you work at a ski resort moto. My story is more embarrassing now.

MotoFoo86 - 12-10-2015 at 07:44 PM

You'd be amazed at how often that happens, especially in group lessons. Alot of times if you're on the right equipment for the lesson you can slip right in and no one will notice. I'm glad i don't work in that world...

Honestly though at my mountain, unless it's bluebird they'd probably deny you the lesson if you showed up in jeans. The non ski coat not so much... but the jeans. You're already making me remember the spring days when we know the Texans have arrived, bluejeans everywhere.

Trust me Sean, i've seen much much worse than what you described

volock - 12-10-2015 at 09:31 PM

I've been known to go ski in a t-shirt, warm hat and whatever pants (jeans/cargos/etc) for an afternoon when it's warm around here in winter. It's really my hands that get cold when it's 50 out and skiing like that.

I'm a little jealous of your blades, always wanted to try those. They never seem to be on CL around here for a good enough deal.

^^FlyinHighAgain^^ - 12-11-2015 at 07:06 AM

Haha! Ssayre i think we had the same idea. I recently got a PL Xplore 4.0. A guy i work with has been a ski instructor at our local resort for 25 yrs, I'm trying to talk him into giving me a few lessons. I need to find some skis or a board too.

rectifier - 12-11-2015 at 11:58 AM

Quote: Originally posted by ssayre

I like the idea of keeping the blades in the truck at all times for impromptu sessions in my work travels. longer skis would be in the way I have a feeling.

Congrats on the blades! This is exactly what I used to do with them in the city, blades, boots and 3.2 Crossfire under the back seat of the work truck for spontaneous small-park sessions on snowy days. Keep on the underpowered side and you'll have a blast!

When I was a boy I used to ski the big mountains with nothing but goggles, hoody and cargo pants. I remember freezing near to death on the lifts, but being fine the rest of the time... Can't believe the metabolism I must've had back then.

ssayre - 12-11-2015 at 01:10 PM

Quote: Originally posted by rectifier

Quote: Originally posted by ssayre

I like the idea of keeping the blades in the truck at all times for impromptu sessions in my work travels. longer skis would be in the way I have a feeling.

Thanks, can't wait to try them out. I don't have them in my possession yet but have a verbal deal so hopefully all goes well and get them this weekend. There's not any snow in the forecast anytime soon so hopefully we get some snow this winter.

Prussik - 12-12-2015 at 09:17 AM

The problem with using snowblades for kiting is the excessive sidecut – much shorter radius than any normal ski. The purpose of a sidecut is to make ski turn when on edge. When kiting, the ski is always on edge what means forcing the ski to go straight while it wants to turn upwind. The resulting slippage means drag and instability. For short skis it is much better to use the front part of old skis. Snowblade bindings are useful - they can be used with ski boots as well as ski mountaineering boots which I prefer for kiting.

ssayre - 12-12-2015 at 10:33 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Prussik

The problem with using snowblades for kiting is the excessive sidecut – much shorter radius than any normal ski. The purpose of a sidecut is to make ski turn when on edge. When kiting, the ski is always on edge what means forcing the ski to go straight while it wants to turn upwind. The resulting slippage means drag and instability. For short skis it is much better to use the front part of old skis. Snowblade bindings are useful - they can be used with ski boots as well as ski mountaineering boots which I prefer for kiting.

Should be perfect then. I don't plan on going in a straight line.

ssayre - 12-12-2015 at 03:03 PM

Quote: Originally posted by MotoFoo86

Every ski blade binding ive ever seen is highly adjustable. I'd gamble that the single screw on the heel and toe plates loosens up a retention system and allows the binding to slide fire and aft.

Janky anything I would say would be a no go, weigh balance is so critical to staying standing that surging kites could easily pull you over.

Janky snow would just hurt, good risk of getting caught in a rut, at speed with non releasing bindings that could be real real bad.

I've taken possession of the blades and boots today. I'll post some more detailed pictures of them. You were right about how the bindings adjust. Single screw in the back. They are already set up for the 12.5 size boots that I bought with them. He also has a set of 10.5 boots for sale that I'm tempted to buy for my son and the binding will shorten enough to accommodate that size as well.

The more research I do, it sounds like regular skis would be better for more conditions and probably preferred by most actual skiers, but since I don't know how to ski it looks like these may be an easier introduction. The good news is I now have boots which will make acquiring a ski quiver a little easier.

It also looks like these snow blades would make a perfect bottom ski for a future diy snowskate. Maybe use these this year, then buy a pair of regular skis next year and convert these to snowskate.

yeti - 12-14-2015 at 08:40 PM

Yikes. Snow blades with non-release bindings would not be my first choice for equipment - but as along as you keep the speed down you'll be ok. 10 years ago when they were sort of a fad at the ski hills I remember trying a set and thinking how quick they go from agile to unstable. Just don't get into a wipeout where you torque your knees on those things. They should be a lot of fun otherwise.

I tried kiting on hockey skates last year. I imagine the feeling would be similar. You'll feel like you can go a lot faster than you have any business going.

ssayre - 12-14-2015 at 08:52 PM

Quote: Originally posted by yeti

Yikes. Snow blades with non-release bindings would not be my first choice for equipment - but as along as you keep the speed down you'll be ok. 10 years ago when they were sort of a fad at the ski hills I remember trying a set and thinking how quick they go from agile to unstable. Just don't get into a wipeout where you torque your knees on those things. They should be a lot of fun otherwise.

I tried kiting on hockey skates last year. I imagine the feeling would be similar. You'll feel like you can go a lot faster than you have any business going.

Thanks for the advice yeti! I will definitely keep my speed down. I can't really even ski yet. If it seems like something I will like and can do. I'll pick up a set of regular skis. I plan on taking it very easy especially with all the advice to not go fast on this set up. I'll keep it on the underpowered side.

rectifier - 12-21-2015 at 12:31 PM

Took my blades out for a very, very underpowered session today. 4kph winds but a beautiful day, I really wanted to kite so I grabbed them for the first time this year. Got in about an hour of hard work with the kite, not much work with the legs.

Couple reasons I like them in low wind. They always feel like they have less friction to break to get moving. If you need to step upwind to get the kite back up in very low wind, I find it much easier than full length skis! Also, as a guy who grew up snowboarding, I always have to focus on my skis and where they are. When the flying conditions are tough, I can focus on the kite and mostly ignore the blades, as they track my feet much more instinctively.

Finally in low wind I'm usually not going for big runs, just messing around in a small area, and they turn on a dime. Probably the most fun you can have in low wind (unless you have huge kites of course!)

Kiteflyer933 - 12-21-2015 at 10:14 PM

Yes any ski boots will fit in....it looks in great shape on pics...I bought mine brand new at the local sports store for $99(firefly) years ago....more than 10 yrs. ago....yet nothing has change in the style....well used and still using it on packed snow surfaces......it was my first ski.....easy to learn and very durable....fun to use in downhill ski resorts...can do hockey braking on it.