Power Kite Forum

Winter Ice Safety

skimtwashington - 9-11-2015 at 07:06 AM

Maybe a good time to think about Safety while on ice for coming Winter.

Partial list:

* Make ice holes and check thickness in scattered locations, edges. middle.....anywhere you might be riding. Know what kind of ice and how thick is safe.
*carry a phone in waterproof bag
* consider wearing a flotation vest
* try not to go alone(hard one for me & my more free schedule)
* Only wear synthetic clothing
* let someone know where you are going

Any other ideas or suggestions ? Add yours.

Can't wait for the deep freeze and kite skiing and skating to begin!

Futahaguro - 9-11-2015 at 07:52 AM

I went through this thought process last season as well. I would suggest doing a search on the internet for ice safety videos and watching all of them:) There are a lot out there and have a lot of good information. What I gathered from them is that the two most important things are a life vest and a set of ice claws. I have not outfitted myself with these items yet but I plan on it before I go out this season. I need a life vest for the summer anyway and I was planning on sticking the ice claws on the straps of my kite bag, because when I winter kite I always wear my bag.

skimtwashington - 9-11-2015 at 08:49 AM

Oops! I forgot and left off the ice picks!

Mine I wear around my neck.

rectifier - 9-11-2015 at 11:40 AM

Thanks for the reminder! Need to make a new set of ice picks.

Feyd - 9-11-2015 at 12:09 PM

This is some of what is on the Hardwater Kiting General Ice Safety page.
http://www.hardwaterkiter.com/ice-safety-information.html

These are general guidelines.
We are in the process of updating them to be snow kite specific. Remember, there is no such thing as 100% safe ice and many factors affect the strength of ice besides thickness. This information is offered as reference and is in no way a substitute for good judgment. Know before you go.

Always be aware that ice seldom freezes uniformly. It can be 5" where you are and less than 2" a few yards away. Weather and temperature changes causing thawing and refreezing. In reservoirs pockets of air can form under the ice on lakes where the water levels are raised and lowered by flood control.

The insulating effect of snow slows down the freezing process and keeps thin ice thin.
Long term coverage can weaken the ice as the warmer water below, especially in run off, will melt the ice from below even if the air is is well below freezing.
Rotting vegetation can make ice thin.
Schools of fish moving warm water up can open holes in the ice
Ice formed over flowing water and currents is often dangerous.
Guidelines for ice thickness and type of activity:

These thicknesses are based on CLEAR ICE. Ice with bubbles or grey ice conditions need at least twice the thickness we've listed here.

4” of new clear ice is the "safe" minimum thickness for travel on foot or by kite. (You're safer on the kite than on foot but you have to be on foot for set up and pack down phases.)

5” is the minimum for snowmobiles and ATVs.

8”-12” is the minimum for cars or small trucks.

Generally accepted minimum of five inches of ice is recommended for safe enjoyment of ice skating, ice fishing, ice boating, snowkiting and snowmobiling on lakes. However, even if the ice is several inches thick, ice-covered water is never completely safe.

Never venture onto the ice alone, and follow these ice safety practices:
Know the ice conditions before you venture out.
Don't access ice with deep snow if you don't have solid information about the ice conditions before the snowfall.
Let someone know when you will be on the ice and when you will return.
Wear a PFD when you don't know if the ice is sound.
Carry two screwdrivers, ice picks, or large nails to help pull yourself out of the water.
Avoid areas of open water especially inflows and outflows.
Avoid pressure ridges.

Be aware and know how to respond:
It is important to pay close attention when kiting or walking on ice. Cold water will cool a body 25 times faster than cold air of the same temperature.

If on foot and you feel the ice begin to crack beneath you, remember these steps:
Do not move suddenly. Lie on your stomach and spread your arms and legs (like an airplane).
Stretch your arms over your head and bring them together.
Roll away from the crack. Do not bend your knees or elbows.
If YOU fall through the ice: Try not to panic. (easier said we know)
Do not remove your winter clothing.
Heavy clothes will not drag you down. They will trap air to provide temporary warmth and flotation. Turn toward the direction you came since the ice was strong enough to support you on the way out, it will probably support you again on the way back.
Place your hands and arms on the unbroken surface.
Kick your feet and dig in your ice picks and swim your way back onto the solid ice. This can be done even without ice picks but ice pick make it a lot easier. Slide onto the ice like a seal.
Lie flat on the ice and roll away from the hole. This will help distribute your weight.
Get to a warm, dry, sheltered area out of the wind.

Watch the videos at the bottom of this page. The video on the left is the best informational video on how to deal with going through the ice that we've ever seen. If you take the time to "know before you go" the chance of going through the ice is unlikely. But if you do this is invaluable information.

Stages of Cold Water Immersion and Hypothermia:
In the event that you or someone else does enter the water you need to be aware of the following symtoms.

Stage 1: Cold Shock/Sudden Disappearance
This response begins immediately upon immersion and will peak within the first 30 seconds to 5 minutes. Breathing and circulation are affected.
Involuntary gasping, rapid breathing, dizziness and confusion start immediately causing water inhalation and possible drowning. A sudden rise in heart rate and blood pressure also occur, possibly resulting in stroke or heart attack.

Stage 2: Swim Failure
A person must attempt to self-rescue, stay afloat or swim to safety within the next 30 minutes. Nerves and muscles in the arms and legs will cool quickly. Strength of handgrip and movement speed will drop 60 percent to 80 percent.

Stage 3: Hypothermia
After the skin, arms and legs have cooled to the water temperature, cooling of the inner organs of the body’s core begins. This is called hypothermia. It develops after 30 minutes if cooling is not stopped. The symptoms follow a predictable progression:
Shivering
Skin color becomes flushed initially, but later may turn blue
Slurred speech
Clumsiness and poor coordination
Withdrawn and apathetic
Heart rate and blood flow slow down
Limbs become stiff as muscles get rigid
Mental confusion
Shivering ceases
Unconsciousness
Heart failure may occur, but usually drowning occurs first

Stage 4: Rescue and Post Immersion Responses
Survivors being removed from the water face significant physiological changes in blood volume and distribution. Rescue method and proper treatment of the victim is crucial. Handle victims gently and minimize movement. Wrap the person in blankets to prevent further heat loss and transport him or her to the nearest medical facility in a warm vehicle.

abkayak - 9-11-2015 at 12:47 PM

you NE guys have like 2 months to commit all this to memory...we still have tropical storms running up the coast

zero gee - 9-11-2015 at 01:07 PM

Great video shows how much time you can have if you dont panic

https://youtu.be/ysnKtuUTt8k

Feyd - 9-11-2015 at 02:52 PM

Fwiw you can never be too careful. Thick ice doesn't equal stong ice always. As I work almost exclusively on ice in the winter we have to really look closely and monitor the places we operate. We cut a lot of holes (and fill them after) and send cameras down to inspect the ice. This allows us to see the quality of the ice at the time but also gives us some insight as to how it will hold up in the future. Last season we had lakes that had 2' or more that we knew were going to be bad fast in the warm up just because of the images from the footage.

Just another way to mitigate the risk.

volock - 9-11-2015 at 03:08 PM

Of the two lakes we get that freeze, one of them they won't let anyone on before there's 8-10" of ice uniformly everywhere, the other which has hot springs nearby and a small river flow that go into it, requires 12" before they'll let anyone on. That's walking/skates, not even the heavy stuff. Subsequently I'm spoiled and don't go and drill/make holes, but the park rangers do every 3-4 days, and will close off the lake if they don't like it.

Ice Claws make getting out of the water a hell of a lot easier. Ice conditions were fantastic, my looking behind me as I took steps backward into an area of 4' x 4' someone had chain sawed open and hadn't refrozen (it had 4-6" of snow on it and a tiny light refreeze)... That was a different story. Spare set of clothes in the car can be a life saver for helping with warming back up. I agree setup/packup needs good ice. And I should pack up further away where I know the ice fishermen don't venture.

And if you're looking at the fat guy/moron they send out to test the ice first, here I am.

ssayre - 9-11-2015 at 04:04 PM

Quote: Originally posted by volock  



And if you're looking at the fat guy/moron they send out to test the ice first, here I am.


This reminds me of my spelunking days. Let's just say you don't want to be the fattest guy in the group when spelunking, which I always was.

Cheddarhead - 9-11-2015 at 05:25 PM

Good thoughts and info by all! Aside from all the comments, do you think it's wise to kite with a water re-launchable kite if you suspect that conditions are sketchy? I always error on the side of caution and try my best to not take chances but bad things happen no matter how careful one might be. I prefer open cell foils in winter, but now that I have a few LEI's in my quiver I thought that perhaps an inflatable would be a tad safer option if I were to fall in? Just food for thought.

volock - 9-11-2015 at 07:21 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Cheddarhead  
Good thoughts and info by all! Aside from all the comments, do you think it's wise to kite with a water re-launchable kite if you suspect that conditions are sketchy? I always error on the side of caution and try my best to not take chances but bad things happen no matter how careful one might be. I prefer open cell foils in winter, but now that I have a few LEI's in my quiver I thought that perhaps an inflatable would be a tad safer option if I were to fall in? Just food for thought.


Depending on conditions, in my experience, getting an LEI to relaunch can occasionally be harder than others on occasion. Deep enough powder so it won't slide at all (if you really crashed it hard.. we're talking a few feet or more) or perfectly smooth ice that it can't seem to "catch" to roll over on, can make it more challenging to relaunch than an open cell foil. Then again, I've not gone through the ice when having that issue, nor am I anywhere near as experienced as Feyd. I'd think your kite going through the water is super unlikely/conditions would need to be sketchy enough you really shouldn't be out.

Feyd - 10-11-2015 at 03:51 AM

Couldn't have said it better Volock.:thumbup:

I will say when I go out and feel there is a risk of going through I will generally ride a kite that has me a bit OP'd. Improves you ability to get out if you go in. Also I'll ride a closed cell as they tend to be easier to launch if the kite happens to come down. Though if you go through your focus should go to keeping the kite in the air and powered. It's your life line.

And it is only as good as your ability to fly a kite.

If you are trying to decide if you should bring a kite that is water relaunchable because of the conditions, stay at home and wait till they get better.

rofer - 10-11-2015 at 05:13 AM

I love the ice safety blog that is linked to on the bottom of Feyd's ice safety page. It's absolutely full of useful ice safety information.

A couple of things mentioned there that I didn't see mentioned here:

While ice picks are very important, it's also important that you wear them in a way where they won't fall of should you go under. I used to wear mine around my neck, but Bob Dill recommends you wear them under one shoulder and around the other side of your neck instead to keep them from coming off.

He also talks about what kind of clothing is best should you go through the ice. Apparently a wet suit will buy you some more time to get out and get to safety before hypothermia sets in, but best of all is a drysuit. With one of those on you can spend quite a while in the ice and still be comfortable. He convinced me to buy one just recently. They're expensive, but I figure if it really gives me a much better shot at surviving going through the ice then it's money well spent.

Finally, he mentions that a study on ice skaters found that in general people go through the ice about 1% of the time. He points out that thus if you're on the ice pretty often it's at matter of when, not if, you go through.

Feyd - 10-11-2015 at 06:23 AM

When I posted the helmet footage of extracting myself a few people gave me grief about being reckless. I spend a lot of time on the ice and burn a lot of miles in a season and it's absolutely true, as is anything that is done with any frequency, it's not a matter of if but of when. I seem to be averaging about 1 swim every 4 years. The first was not a surprise and I had a PFD on. It was the moment where all my theory about self rescue from ice was put to work and I found I was pretty spot on and learned a bit more in the process, such as let the kite drag you away from the hole before trying to get upright.:P

Second time, again was not a surprise.:D

This last time, which is where the footage comes from, was a fluke and I hope it to be the last for quite some time. But I seem to be averaging a fall through once every 4+ years or roughly every 7000+ miles which doesn't seem unreasonable. I feel safer on the ice than I do riding my bike on the road.

A dry suit is a good bet for sure but impractical for my use. If a skater goes in, they are likely to be there a while. A kiter, has much better ability to get out of trouble.

A good water proof/breathable layering system with waterproof zippers does great job. In the course of that video the only thing that got really wet were my feet and my hands. Everything else stayed dry, even after body dragging through the ice. My clothing did a great job of keeping air in, thus keeping me afloat, and water out thus keeping me warm.

I can't stress enough how good technical wear is important when out on the ice.

People look at some of the gear we wear and think its a little the top. But it all serves a purpose, all came about as I and others evolved in this. It allows us to be safe and comfortable in a wide range of conditions.

Cheddarhead - 10-11-2015 at 09:17 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Feyd  
Couldn't have said it better Volock.:thumbup:

If you are trying to decide if you should bring a kite that is water relaunchable because of the conditions, stay at home and wait till they get better.


Well said.....personally this has always been the case with me.

Demoknight - 10-11-2015 at 02:23 PM

Trying to keep your arms flat on the ice if you can't get out to get them to freeze to the ice is a piece of genius advice I never would have thought of. One thing I learned when becoming CPR and First Aid certified, is the differences between hypothermia and hyperthermia. Hypothermia on its own isn't really all that dangerous because meat keeps better when it is cold. You can live a lot longer than you think when cold, but you can have only minutes when too hot.

ssayre - 10-11-2015 at 03:37 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Demoknight  
Trying to keep your arms flat on the ice if you can't get out to get them to freeze to the ice is a piece of genius advice I never would have thought of. One thing I learned when becoming CPR and First Aid certified, is the differences between hypothermia and hyperthermia. Hypothermia on its own isn't really all that dangerous because meat keeps better when it is cold. You can live a lot longer than you think when cold, but you can have only minutes when too hot.


I thought the same thing about leaving the arms on the ice and letting them freeze. Errol you have plenty of beard to freeze to the ice to keep out of trouble until help comes.

Demoknight - 10-11-2015 at 03:40 PM

I have had my beard freeze my helmet to my face. True story. I had to thaw out in the car before I could take it off. I looked really strange riding around with a motocross helmet inside a Subaru.

Windstruck - 10-11-2015 at 03:50 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Demoknight  
I have had my beard freeze my helmet to my face. True story. I had to thaw out in the car before I could take it off. I looked really strange riding around with a motocross helmet inside a Subaru.


Been there. :lol: