Power Kite Forum

Who Hates Their Fifth Line Safety?

Cheddarhead - 8-23-2015 at 06:26 PM

I don't know if it's just me, but that bugger of a safety line seems to always get wrapped around everything! Seems like it's always in the way or constantly twisted around other lines. God help me if I have to pull the safety because a reset usually isn't gonna be pretty. I love that Ozone found an alternative Re-ride system:thumbup:

As much as I like my Frenzy, the fifth line kinda makes life a little more difficult. Is there anyway to retrofit something for older Frenzies? I've been really tempted to take my fifth line off, but it does do a good job of killing the power if I need it. Just isn't a clean system compared to the 4.5 flagout systems out there.

djsiryn - 8-23-2015 at 06:40 PM

I like the idea of the 5th but for the very same reasons I have ditched all my 5th line kites or just fly them on 4 (unless it's one of those loaded 5th kites....).

southpadreburt - 8-23-2015 at 07:07 PM

I have used Ozone foil kites with the 5th line for a few years now. My smallest is a 4M and largest is 13M. Have not had any problems with the 5th line. I do like the 5th line when the wind gets strong enough that the normal landing brake line is not enough and the kite becomes uncontrollable. I do not like a 5th line on my kiteboarding kites(inflatable) because it can kill the kite when the kite rolls in the process of inverting. Many modern inflatable kites now have bridles that kill the kite with no 5th line. For me the safety of the 5th line far out weighs the problems it might cause on my Ozone foil kites but not on my inflatables.

Kamikuza - 8-23-2015 at 09:27 PM

Burt nailed it. Didn't like FDS on the Speed2 either...

John Holgate - 8-23-2015 at 10:24 PM


Quote:

Who Hates Their Fifth Line Safety?


I hated it on the 5m Frenzy so much I ended up selling the kite. And when I did deploy the safety, the stopper ball got well and truly jammed in the bar. Another case of two steps forward and one step back from Ozone.

Can't see any reason the Frenzy wouldn't work ok with the leashless re-ride bar from earlier Ozones - I quite like that system. Having said that, I don't use the kites at the top of their wind range which would probably benefit from the 5th line flag out.

I often got the 5th line wrapped around the other lines too....never could quite work out why.

Feyd - 8-24-2015 at 03:29 AM

I'm not suggesting this but if you remove the stopper a vast majority of the issus seen with some 5th lines will be gone. In an emergency, if I cut the kite free to flag out I'm not concerned with the bar traveling almost all the way to the kite. But a am concerned if the stopper gets twists up in the other front lines and does allow for normal flight without tangles or worse, causes the kite to not flag our properly.

We've used the new ReRide system with the stopper removed and it was fine. Apart from the ReRide though, most 5th lines are a Pita. Prefer a 4.5 fls like I run on my Arcs or Peaks.

Windstruck - 8-24-2015 at 06:01 AM

Cheddar - I too like the whole way the Peaks work out the 4.5 line solution as compared to running the safety line all the way up to the kite. There is enough going on with the bridling system up their already without inviting yet more line to the party out at the kite.

The part that has me worried is this winter. I plan to snowkite for the first time and plan to use a quiver of Peak 2s for that. As I've read on other threads (by you and others) there is a genuine possiblility (inevitability?) that I will run over my lines with my ski edges and cut the lines. Lord knows I've run over my lines with my buggy wheels a time or three (OK, five).

Do you or anybody (Chris maybe?) have any experience replacing lines for Peaks? I did find this on the web; has anybody used it? http://www.flysurfer.com/en/support/line_service/


gemini6kl - 8-24-2015 at 06:21 AM

I myself have taken all 5th lines off my kites, like most people said they wrap around the other lines and generally are troublesome, and some of them will affect the flying of the kite if the are adjusted too tight . I had a kite that was behaving badly in flight and then later realized later on that the 5th line was too tight and removed it. I usually just use a leash with a pigtail attached to the center strap that is connected to the brake lines, works for me, Ive never had a problem with releasing to that and felt like the kite had enough power to still move me.

Cheddarhead - 8-24-2015 at 01:00 PM

Quote: Originally posted by John Holgate  

Quote:

Who Hates Their Fifth Line Safety?


I hated it on the 5m Frenzy so much I ended up selling the kite. And when I did deploy the safety, the stopper ball got well and truly jammed in the bar. Another case of two steps forward and one step back from Ozone.

Can't see any reason the Frenzy wouldn't work ok with the leashless re-ride bar from earlier Ozones - I quite like that system. Having said that, I don't use the kites at the top of their wind range which would probably benefit from the 5th line flag out.

I often got the 5th line wrapped around the other lines too....never could quite work out why.


Oh yes, that little stopper ball:evil:.......I've had that jam into the bar on one occasion. Was nearly impossible to free without tools. It does seem to be a tangle monger with the other lines. I think I'll take mine off and see how it goes.


Cheddarhead - 8-24-2015 at 01:03 PM

Quote: Originally posted by gemini6kl  
I myself have taken all 5th lines off my kites, like most people said they wrap around the other lines and generally are troublesome, and some of them will affect the flying of the kite if the are adjusted too tight . I had a kite that was behaving badly in flight and then later realized later on that the 5th line was too tight and removed it. I usually just use a leash with a pigtail attached to the center strap that is connected to the brake lines, works for me, Ive never had a problem with releasing to that and felt like the kite had enough power to still move me.


When you removed your fifth lines, did you remove the center bridle also?

Cheddarhead - 8-24-2015 at 01:15 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Windstruck  
Cheddar - I too like the whole way the Peaks work out the 4.5 line solution as compared to running the safety line all the way up to the kite. There is enough going on with the bridling system up their already without inviting yet more line to the party out at the kite.

The part that has me worried is this winter. I plan to snowkite for the first time and plan to use a quiver of Peak 2s for that. As I've read on other threads (by you and others) there is a genuine possiblility (inevitability?) that I will run over my lines with my ski edges and cut the lines. Lord knows I've run over my lines with my buggy wheels a time or three (OK, five).

Do you or anybody (Chris maybe?) have any experience replacing lines for Peaks? I did find this on the web; has anybody used it? http://www.flysurfer.com/en/support/line_service/



Out of seven winters of snowkiting I cut my lines once with my skis. A pretty good record if I say so. Was it the first time I ran over them? No, but the other occasions were on soft snow and I wasn't on edge. Just try to always keep your lines tight and off the snow and you shouldn't have issues.

ssayre - 8-24-2015 at 01:19 PM

Is there any reason not to have a front line flag out? Seems simple and effective on both depowers that I've flown. do open cell require more than that?

In other words, what's the point of 5th line?

Windstruck - 8-24-2015 at 01:29 PM

@Cheddar - good tips. Thankfully I should be mostly working softer snow as that is the prevailing stuff out here in the land of The Greatest Snow On Earth (hey, it has to be true, it says so right on my licence plate). Prevention is certainly the best strategy. Hopefully I will have the good sense to avoid the whole mess, or at least, if I am going to run over the lines unintentionally, then flatten out my skis while I pass over the lines to keep from slicing them.

I'm an old downhill ski racer and I keep my carving front side skis really well tuned. My backside and powder skis I leave purposely slightly detuned on their edges for reasons that should be self-evident to those reading this that know ski tuning like we all know kites. I plan to snowkite with my backside/powder boards so hopefully this won't be a problem. Unlike my snowkiting friends from other climes I won't have the opportunity (desperate necessity?) to snowkite on bare ice.

And yes, I'd say seven seasons and going strong in this department is a stellar record. :thumbup::thumbup:

B-Roc - 8-24-2015 at 05:36 PM

I like my 5th line but don't loop my kites that often and have only needed to rely on the safety two times and it worked great on both occasions. I'm not a fan of rear line /top hat systems as they often still hold a decent amount of power when on the ground or relaunch themselves and fly around fluttering. I do like the idea of removing the stopper ball.

kiteballoon - 8-25-2015 at 07:34 AM

I think I'm with Chris, and in the end I prefer the 4.5 line safeties. pbc and I have argued and refined and designed a few iterations of safety systems, but the more they resemble a true fifth line, the less I like them. My preference is to only have 4 lines on the kite, while still allowing a total flag out and complete depowering of the kite to be safe. The less line I have to have to enable that, the better.

gemini6kl - 8-25-2015 at 12:43 PM

yep I remove everything.

gemini6kl - 8-25-2015 at 12:44 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Cheddarhead  
Quote: Originally posted by gemini6kl  
I myself have taken all 5th lines off my kites, like most people said they wrap around the other lines and generally are troublesome, and some of them will affect the flying of the kite if the are adjusted too tight . I had a kite that was behaving badly in flight and then later realized later on that the 5th line was too tight and removed it. I usually just use a leash with a pigtail attached to the center strap that is connected to the brake lines, works for me, Ive never had a problem with releasing to that and felt like the kite had enough power to still move me.



yep I remove everything .
When you removed your fifth lines, did you remove the center bridle also?

Feyd - 8-25-2015 at 04:34 PM

I'm not on board with complete removal of the 5th line system. It's not ideal but a hell f a lot better than old school brake line safety. Anyone who has flown in conditions where the brakes still have enough power to drag you will agree 5th line is a move forward.


hiaguy - 8-25-2015 at 04:57 PM

Sorry, but I don't completely understand the issue with the 5th line.
The only depowers I've flown are the PL Lynx, and the 5th line has never tangled or been in the way on any of them (I have all 4 sizes). The stopper ball is far enough down the line so that it doesn't interfere with the back lines even with several twists on the bar (after about 6 loops, the line friction is more of an issue than anything else).
So, what have the other makers done differently?

PS: If you don't have a safety line, when you pull the chicken loop, do you just watch the kite drift until it lands?

ssayre - 8-25-2015 at 05:22 PM

Quote: Originally posted by hiaguy  
(I have all 4 sizes).


Wait! Let me stop you there and say congratulations! I would love to have a full set of my favorite depowers. The wind range you can kite with those must make you feel like......



Other than that I have no relevant information to the topic. :)

Windstruck - 8-25-2015 at 05:49 PM

Have to say, the PL Lynx line of DPs are sweet kites! I sold mine to cover the cost of my single skin habit, but they are extremely well built, nice simple bridles, and flew very nicely. In my limited experience with them I did not find their 5th lines a problem, so maybe the Lynx line does to have this issue.

hiaguy - 8-25-2015 at 05:55 PM

LOL! I had the good fortune of working at a property that was very generous at Christmas time. Otherwise, I'd still be enjoying my Hornets.
With the crap wind I live with, I had too many OBEs with the Hornets and Cores, and the Lynx was the affordable route to go (thanks for all your help Markite) if I wanted to keep flying.

Autographs will be available at WBB in...
... 42 ... days

But, I still don't understand the 5th line headache.

Cheddarhead - 8-25-2015 at 06:45 PM

I think the majority of the problems I come across is with the stopper ball. Either wrapping around the other lines and not undoing itself (think hair braid here) or on one occasion having it jam into the bar hole after a safety release because the ball is simply too small. Not sure what I'm doing wrong, but I can set up my kite after taking it out of the bag unwind the lines and find the fifth line wrapped around the fronts even before I attempt to launch. Like Chris K said, it would be going completely backwards to remove the fifth line and rely on a rear line safety only. That is the primary means of safety after all. I've had to release my rear line safety on a couple older Ozones that I had in very powered conditions and it still pulled like a bull. At least the fifth line completely taco's the kite if everything is in order. Like Feyd said earlier, taking the stopper ball off may eliminate 90% of the tangles I encounter. Ozone front lines are one line until you get closer to the kite, then they split into two lines. I think the fifth line wraps around this single line much easier due to this.....OR......my line management techniques are not up to par so that could play into this as well. This is not something I'm mad about, it's just simply irritating compared to the 4.5 systems I've flown thus far.:D

PHREERIDER - 8-25-2015 at 07:27 PM

if there is ONE line that has hi foul potential it is not helping. it is only adding to management requirements . it becomes liability if twisted to much, then fouled relaunch (attempt) is a POWERED liability.

any kite i have flown for any amount time that has a line that fouls or fouls relaunch it gets dropped.

compstick works and will tolerate insane amount of twisting and work!

but foils with center line safety. on water , better be a lake nice and flat. on land what a mess minus the water and YOU HAVE TO STOP NOW.

back lines have been the only way i fly them. some with front line pulls that have cased depower but hardly use them .

wear gloves best handling safety option , makes every line a safety.

PHREERIDER - 8-25-2015 at 07:38 PM

In higher winds I see the need if no one is around for foil stuff absolutely.

Cheddarhead - 8-25-2015 at 08:56 PM

Quote: Originally posted by PHREERIDER  
compstick works and will tolertate insane amount of twisting and work!


I absolutely love the slingshot compstick. It's a nice setup that's clean, simple and functional. IMHO:thumbup:

I wonder if you could fly a Frenzy on a compstick or a bar from a Peak? I guess there's one way to find out. Got me thinking now..:rolleyes:

Feyd - 8-26-2015 at 03:52 AM

There may be some minor tuning involved but I don't see why not.

I'm with Phree on using gloves. Reduces a lot of potential risk while allowing you to manage certain line base situations with safety and comfort. Even thin summer weight gloves.

The flag out on the Chrono works really well. It doesn't use the ReRide system and flags out off a 4.5 like my old Navigator mod. Running that bar with other kites I imagine would be the same.

PHREERIDER - 8-26-2015 at 05:31 AM

switching the bars around will work just takes time and tweaking. FS are the most difficult to switch onto. everything else, lay them out, see the different +/- with pigtails. everything needs to be fairly close , bar length can be a deal breaker as well as center hole freedom. a tip to make it consistent , you must choose when you lay things out, bar all the way in and trim all the way out OR bar all the way in and trim all the way in. if you use alot of depower action, trim all the way out when comparing. if you favor more lighter air and unhooked then trim in all the way when comparing.

gloves are the first safety step , all my foil packs have the cheap mechanic gloves in them just in case i loose my sailing gloves ....which happens more than i'll admit.

Naish has an all around universal bar that has good center swivel pass thru. this is a sweet deal !
http://www.kiteboarding.com/proddetail.asp?prod=naish2014_un...

UnknownAX - 8-26-2015 at 06:44 AM

The Ozone snowkites have very high Y on on the front lines and may not fly properly with a low V. Except for the 2011/2012 (i think) Frenzy which had a "link" line, that is.

I have no problems with the 5th line. Sure, it will twist around the front line when you loop the kite, but that is easy enough to fix by swivelling or looping the kite the other way. The great thing about the 5th on a foil kite is, that it will really kill 99% of the power. I don't release it for fun or land my kite with it so I don't care if the lines get a little tangled when the safety is released.
A backstall safety system is totally outdated and a really dangerous POS in high winds.

Btw. A even better allround bar is the Gaastra X2, which can be adjusted for pretty much any kite. It has adjustable depower and trim throw, 4/5 line option, a below the bar swivel which automatically untwists the lines and a pretty good looking QR. Very affordable, too. And I think the lines were among the best in a test I recently saw in a magazine.


ssayre - 8-26-2015 at 07:28 AM

http://switchkites.com/controller2.html

Switch looks like it could meet all of the above criteria as well. Never used one but just based off their description

Feyd - 8-26-2015 at 09:46 AM

Y lines suck. I've never liked them, hated them on my Arcs and refused to use them. I can't think of a kite out there that uses a Y line that can't be used with V lines.

UnknownAX - 8-26-2015 at 02:09 PM

The flying characteristics of Y line LEIs sure do change if you fly them on V lines, but I'm not sure about the foil kites since I've only ever flown mine on a Y line. It probably doesn't matter as much with foils as it does with LEIs because of the different kind of bridles.
I must agree that Y lines suck, though.:D

Feyd - 8-27-2015 at 03:51 AM

Sure. And they also have some affect on foils as well. Some more than others.

Still, they are interchangeable. For some kites, like arcs, switching from Y to V opens the canopy up, gets you better low end and allows for more flex in the sail in gusty conditions. Y line tightens the canopy up, makes it more nimble etc...

And a total pain in the arse when it inverts.

Seemed like everyone was going Y line. That seems to have abated a bit now. 4.5 is where its at for my tastes. Unless its an Ozone ReRide equipped kite. Apart from THE DANG STOPPER BALL, that system is really pretty sick. Use it for a launching, landing and someday if need be, to depower the kite in an emergency.

PistolPete - 11-19-2019 at 05:46 PM

Making a bar to match up with a Closed Cell DePower foil kite that has a wingspan of 6.8m. I plan to use a mini 5th line (4.5) safety but want to know how short this safety line could be?

The mini 5th safety line length is from the leash connect point to the single center line attach point (where the bar ends up after the QR is deployed).

With a LEI kite the guideline minimum for the mini 5th length is one kite span. This is so only one line has tension even if it has to reach across the span.

I was thinking for the CC DP foil this should also be one span (6.8m in this case). But maybe shorter is ok too?

I usually prefer 5th lines on large foil kites that I don't loop because they have easy/less spin recovery and the little extra drag from the line is ok.

I have used this kite in light winds on 30m lines with a 55cm pulley bar on a hydrofoil. This old bar has a Front Line Safety that wraps the leash with each loop. My new bar with the mini 5th won't do that. I want to reuse the 30m lines but with short extension lines below the mini 5th upper connection (that run to the bar leader lines). That is my motivation to make the mini 5th line as short as practical, so my 30m + extensions don't get too long.

The bar has 0.6m of throw and, above the bar stop is another 0.3m for the clamcleat, depower rope, ring, and pigtails. So the extension lines could be as short as 5.7m (6.8m-0.6m-0.3m). This is probably too long with a 30m lineset, so a 25m lineset with the 5.7m extensions would be more practical...

Any suggestions/experiences to share :dunno:

nate76 - 11-19-2019 at 09:25 PM

Maybe if you could supply a picture of what you have going on, it might help?

I've found that rigging the flag-out to a little more than just half of the kite span is actually helpful on closed cell foils. It seems to help keep bridle tangling from excessive flapping a bit more under control if you keep the flagout a little shorter.

I've used the following flag-out system on 4 bars now; it works great. If I understand what you're trying to do correctly, you could use the same setup and not have to add really any extra extensions. Refer to the pictures below, but basically what you'll want to do is get a couple 3x15mm Stainless Steel rings (ebay), a 20 or 25mm Parrel bead stopper ball (fixmykite.com), and some leader line for your safety. Then all you do is attach one of your front lines through that ring and stopper ball - fix the other front line to a pigtail extension to make sure its even, and you should have it. These have been the smoothest acting safeties I've owned - simple, easy to inspect and very little points of wear or things to go wrong. I have another stopper ball up further on the flag-out line that I can adjust to whatever position and tailor the flagout length, but it's not entirely necessary. If you leave it off, the bar will just flag out the entire span of the kite.

Here are some pictures, one with the general bar layout, the 2nd one showing a closeup of how the flagout line passes through the ring and stopper ball. Hope that helps - you can PM me if you have any questions. Nate








PistolPete - 11-19-2019 at 10:34 PM

Quote: Originally posted by nate76  

I've found that rigging the flag-out to a little more than just half of the kite span is actually helpful on closed cell foils. It seems to help keep bridle tangling from excessive flapping a bit more under control if you keep the flagout a little shorter.


Thanks Nate,

Yea...I was rambling on about bar setups, was thinking aloud and typing as I go. Afterwards I realized I was just describing my old Flysurfer mini 5th setup with the 12m & 6m line segments.

I think you answered my question, that is; you have used a front line flag-out line that is half the span of a closed cell depower foil kite, and it works fine. :thumbup:

Your bars look clean. I planned to use a clamcleat trim which complicates things a little. I have built and used a no-trim bar for a cloud kite because it fully powers/depowers with the throw length of the bar. Thinking aloud again...maybe I'll skip the trim for this kite too because with the pulley bar it fully depowers and, it gives me the extra steering line pull for loops (plus a full upper body workout) ;)

And while I'm rambling, if the kite fully depowers with the bar out, and it is used for light winds, I suppose a suicide leash in place of a (1) FLS, (2) 5th-Line or even a (3) stall/brake strap could be a fourth option. Makes a super clean bar but maybe :crazy:

Taking the safe out of safety :puzzled:
-5th Line
-Front Line
-Dual Front Lines (Old Cabrinha IDS, Old Ocean Rodeo)
-Dual Brake Lines Bar Stall/Brake Strap (Underpowered Foil Kites)
-Dual Brake Lines Handles (Dual Kite Killers)
-Single Brake Line Bar (Old LEIs, Possible Death Looper)
-Single Brake Line Handles (Single Kite Killer)
-Suicide

nate76 - 11-20-2019 at 08:09 AM

I would go a little more than half span to be conservative and to make sure it will completely flag out - especially if you are doing it in a way that doesn't allow adjustment, but that's the general idea.

I know it seems like a step backwards, but I've really become a fan of not having that center clamcleat. It makes everything so clean. You also don't have the long trim line dangling around when you're depowered - getting wrapped around your other lines and brake handle. I've been managing trim in a few different ways. The first is that I just made my center depower rope longer to give more throw. Then I was using line wraps around the bar for the outside lines as a way to make gross adjustments to trim.

The latest method I've been trying can be seen in that last picture: I'm using a couple of 3x15mm SS rings on the outside lines to provide a little better on-the-fly adjustment. Its been working surprisingly well: no slipping, and pretty easy to adjust. I think Ozone used a similar idea in the 2009-ish timeframe, but with webbing if I remember correctly. I think this ring method is probably actually easier to adjust. I made a little video for a couple of my buddies - it wasn't really made for the greater Youtube world, but you can see how the setup works here:



FWIW, the other thing I've become a big believer in is a simple ring termination for the chicken loop. It does require you buy a QR release kit from someone like BoardRiding Maui or Epirigs (cheaper), but once you get one, you can convert all your bars and I think for most hooked-in riders - there's no going back. For one, chickenloops are notoriously big and bulky - so it will shorten all that up and make it much more simple and easy to inspect. The other advantage I've found is that CL's can get really stiff when it is cold, and they sometimes hesitate on fully releasing in those conditions. That problem is completely gone with this sort of setup.

Anyhow, just some food for thought...


PistolPete - 11-20-2019 at 12:58 PM

Thanks, the video helps explain it well. I'm building a couple bars and I'll try your steering line double ring adjuster on one of the bars, for a kite I only use on the land.

I agree with you on simple QRs without CLs. I like the old style Cabrinha red mushroom QRs.

nate76 - 11-20-2019 at 01:55 PM

Ya no problem! I would love to see what you eventually come up with; you'll have to share a picture of your final design.

Hope to take the above setup into the mountains for the 1st time tomorrow - I'll let you know if I find something really wrong with the design.

Blitzhound - 11-21-2019 at 06:02 PM

I have spent the summer flyin Ozones Blizzard/Subzero with the 5th line reride and I Really enjoy it. I've had no issues and it works great for launch and landing. All of my other kites use the same Ozone Contact bar V3 I believe. With the Front line flag out. I like this setup.