Power Kite Forum

Perceived speed

BeamerBob - 11-5-2015 at 06:37 PM

The last year has had me getting very limited riding in with a small flood in our house, baseball for my younger son, and I'm now full time employed. I got to go ride at Ivanpah today since I slipped out of work at lunch (have to make it up later in the week) to get to ride in what was forecast to be some sweet winds of 15 gusting to 21. The wind wasn't what it was supposed to be with lulls down to almost nothing and then up to maybe 12-13 at the most. This time last year, I had at least a half dozen sessions that I went over 60 mph multiple times with 3 different kites, and one such session I set a new pb of 65.6. Believe it or not, every run that day after the first one was over 60 mph. I only made 5-6 runs since one local had already been blown over in his Manta and broke his arm, so when I broke 65, I came into camp happy I wasn't hurt and hadn't torn up any equipment.

Fast forward to today with lower quality winds and a rusty psyche and I was at least a little proud for breaking 42. Going fast in the buggy requires confidence in the wind, equipment and skills. It takes miles and sessions to build that confidence to throw a match in the gas tank and be able to handle what happens next.

You guys going ~20 on a soccer field or beach, need to be proud of yourselves as well. It's all relative to your frequency of riding, and how much space you have to put the hammer down.

sunset-Jim - 11-5-2015 at 06:53 PM

Space to put that hammer down is always a plus. Those are still some impressive speeds Bobby :)

WELDNGOD - 11-5-2015 at 07:07 PM

I still have yet to break 50 (by GPS). I got a 47.5 once on a beach. I don't think I would know how to act on the playa. Ya might have to send out a search party!

BeamerBob - 11-5-2015 at 07:23 PM

Thanks Jim. Much respect for your buggy abilities as well. :thumbup:

Weldngod, you would be amazed at how little kite you would need to go faster than you think would be possible in such little wind at Ivanpah. I imagine my 42 mph today was close to 3 times the wind speed, but I can't be sure. The lack of rolling resistance is the key to going so fast and only needing such a small kite. There was an area on the lakebed that has softened up to where you leave indentations like on a beach, and it was like putting the brakes on when I would get in that area. My head would actually move forward and then go back to the normal position when the ground would harden up.

ssayre - 11-5-2015 at 07:26 PM

Would a wide axle and extending my side rails further back help with handling higher winds and speeds on rough terrain? A new bug wouldn't be worth it to me since I'm not close to any beach or desert but I have thought about having an axle I could switch out if conditions seemed right for speed.

soliver - 11-5-2015 at 07:45 PM

IMHO the extra wide back axle for the PL buggies (Bigfoot back axle I think) is worth it.... It reduces the possibility of flipping and helps with side pull too (y'all tell me if I'm wrong).

BeamerBob - 11-5-2015 at 07:50 PM

I never quit tinkering and adjusting on any buggy I've ever owned. I was always trying to correct the most grievous problem with the buggy and it's fit and handling.

A wide axle will help if you are getting lifted up onto two wheels when you try to hold down power, but it usually needs to correspond with adding length to the buggy at the same time. The wheels need to make a triangle or close to it. The longer buggy will not turn as sharp which will translate into more stability if you get your speed up. It will also slide more predictably if your traction breaks loose.

My first buggy on Ivanpah was a flexi wide axle with padded side rail pads and an XR+ seat. I was able to comfortably go over 40 mph with it. Brian Holgate has always been able to ride with me or faster than me in his XR + up to 50 mph and then he can't hold down the power on the same line as me. He has to drift more downwind and or slow down while I am able to keep going the direction that is fastest because my buggy holds me in securely, slides evenly on all 3 wheels, and has my rear less than 2 inches off the ground. My rear axle is narrower than most race buggies at 135 cm. Most are 150 to 160 cm. I only lift a wheel when my tires are almost worn out and they have lots of grip combined with a rough grippy surface.

WELDNGOD - 11-5-2015 at 08:03 PM

I built my heavy racer @ 5'9" center to center (of the tire),side to side and 5'9" axle to axle fore and aft. And with tires ,it's about 6'4" wide. And I flipped mine. :( But a sudden stop in a power slide can do that . Under high speed power on the beach ,some times the rear end will slip sideways a bit. I just countersteer out of it and keep on getting it. A little freaky the first couple times it happens.

WELDNGOD - 11-5-2015 at 08:07 PM

wow ,I just did the conversion. 5'9 =175cm. :D

ssayre - 11-5-2015 at 08:34 PM

I think I'm going to give it a try. We have enough defunct equipment at work that I could probably build a whole buggy if I wanted to from the steel parts. I'll start with just an axle. Oh, and I'll have to learn to weld too. :D

So, is your butt suppose to be in the middle of the triangle or slightly towards the rear? The pl basically has you right in front of the axle with upper body hanging over the back. Not that I'm looking at your butt Bob :o, but it looks like it's basically in the middle of the triangle from your avatar.

One thing that has always worried me about putting a wide axle on a pl buggy is adding additional twisting force to the side rail clamps to the downtube while going over bumps. That seems to be an area of material / weld failure and that would add extra leverage. So, I am more or less faced with making new side rails and rear axle.

Cheddarhead - 11-5-2015 at 08:50 PM

26mph on grass is my fastest so far. I run out of room REALLY fast when you only have postage stamp sized fields to ride. Like you said Bobby, the more you ride the more comfortable you get with speed and what you can handle. I'm not sure how I could handle slowing down when your going 60mph on a dry lake bed:o Grass is easy, just lay off the power and you automatically slow down from the high resistance.

Cheddarhead - 11-5-2015 at 09:00 PM

Quote: Originally posted by WELDNGOD  
wow ,I just did the conversion. 5'9 =175cm. :D


How cow Donnie, that's a wide axle. My axle's only 4'8" without tires. Almost wish I made it slightly wider. Front to back is slightly longer than the rear width, so it's not a perfect triangle. I have a 35 inch inseam so my bug is particularily long. I guess it wouldn't take much to make a wider axle:D

Bladerunner - 12-5-2015 at 03:53 AM

You should be sitting more or less center of the triangle. If your fork is set long then odds are you will need an extended axle to create the triangle. Notice how Bob's seat is forward. If your back end kicks out too easy then you need to move your seat forward to counter that. Doing that will be more of an advantage than a longer axle and FREE!

I have no choice with my old buggy so have just learned to enjoy my loose back end and forget about high speeds.

robinsonpr - 12-5-2015 at 04:24 AM

I've only had a few decent buggy sessions since I started, in a gusty inland grass field is where I fly. I thought I had a way to go as my top speed is a meagre 26.1 mph with the 6m Peak.

But it sounds like I'm doing OK :D

BeamerBob - 12-5-2015 at 06:34 AM

If you add the wide axle to an XR you should also add the bigfoot siderails or a set of Van's rails if they extend the buggy length. Just adding the wider axle might create other ill effects.

The buggiers that know, talk about "tow point" in regards to center of gravity in the buggy. All that assumes you are attached to the kite. Holding the power in your hands changes lots of things. If I hit rough ground at speed, my buggy just shutters downwind slightly but keeps going in the same direction.

Cheddarhead, if you are going 60 mph, you might use a half mile or more to slow down and turn around. Flying an LEI kite helps by depowering more significantly, but you still need rollout room. I am sure I've slid at an angle more than a half mile at times I've been totally overpowered, and sometimes it lets me slow down and other times I've just had to coast downwind to drop my speed to be able to turn around.

Feyd - 12-5-2015 at 10:37 AM

Bobby I'm missing something. How does flying an LEI affect the depower significantly vs. a foil?

bigE123 - 12-5-2015 at 11:29 AM

Nice one Beamerbob, bit late to the thread but I think you have hit the nail on the head, some of us don't have the flat surfaces and clean winds to do the top speed runs, for me it's all about doing the best on the ground you're riding on, the wind and the kite. It's really difficult to equate a speed achieved to where you are running and the quality of wind. If I got 30mph from a 10mph wind going across a farmers field I'd be well chuffed! It's for that reason I don't measure because I just do the best I can and measure it via my "buzzometer" - available in all good kite shops :D

BeamerBob - 12-5-2015 at 11:38 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Feyd  
Bobby I'm missing something. How does flying an LEI affect the depower significantly vs. a foil?


Hey Feyd. I feel funny explaining kite things to you! I've found the level of depower is significantly higher on the LEI kites I've flown. To the extent that they can noticeably increase my confidence to hurtle myself closer to the shoreline with the confidence that I can just let the bar out till the trailing edge flutters and casually turn upwind. They also significantly reduce tire wear because there is much less sliding involved with turning upwind to slow down.

BigMikesKites - 12-5-2015 at 03:02 PM

I wiped out once at 29.4 (beach fortunately in the softer stuff) and I have determined I am completely excited to keep my speed at 30 or below. I enjoy watching all you hot rod guys out there, but by the smile on my face, you would have thought I reached the speeds you are.

ssayre - 12-5-2015 at 03:06 PM


Quote:

for me it's all about doing the best on the ground you're riding on, the wind and the kite. It's really difficult to equate a speed achieved to where you are running and the quality of wind


Well said BigE, that's what I'm always shooting for, just doing the best with the hand dealt :) It can be a real challenge trying to decide on which size to use in crap wind. The peak helps with that because basically anything over 11ish up to 20ish, it works. I still use the nasa's more because I like the direct turning, I just have to be a bit choosier with size like any fb kite

Bob, has anyone ever put a LEI in a death loop at ibx in a buggy? My last incident with running over my steering line got me thinking how that would have been with LEI??

soliver - 12-5-2015 at 03:43 PM

I'm on the same page as you and Ian, Sean... I am definitely one who rides the postage stamp style fields and does the best I can with what I have... the fastest I've gone in a grass field is like 22 mph... but thats rare. i actually find that I've gotten so used to the small fields that when i get into bigger areas such as Jekyll, i have a strange sensation as though I need to turn after a little distance.... weird.

1oldkid - 12-5-2015 at 03:45 PM

Boy I gotta long way to go...
I was feeling good with 19 mph...:)

Feyd - 12-5-2015 at 05:42 PM

Hey Bobby,

I think I understand where you're coming from. It may be that what you are finding are benefits common in modern LEIs, specifically SLE types. Not necessarily all LEIs. In foil terms to get the same effect you would have to fly a Peak. Although there are other foils coming awfully close to the depow range of the Peak and SLE without the flutter.

Interesting how tastes vary. Some look for smooth winds for speed while my friends and I look for gusts. (Which are abundant here) The buggy thing intrigues me. I want to try it just to understand the dynamics and how the differ from skis. But we have less room to ride than Cheddar in the summer months.

soliver - 12-5-2015 at 05:57 PM

I've heard the term SLE before, but am not familiar with it. Can someone explain the difference between a standard LEI and and SLE?

ssayre - 12-5-2015 at 06:03 PM

Supported leading edge (bridle). I think lei is a more general term for tube kites. I think?

BeamerBob - 13-5-2015 at 06:29 AM

Feyd, we hunt gusts as well, but ideally the gusts are 20-25% of the base wind. Maybe 50% max. It's fun to be cruising at 45-50 mph with room to run and then feel the wind build. Add in some of that confidence I'm talking about and nirvana occurs.:cool:

acampbell - 13-5-2015 at 08:49 AM

This is a rocking good thread - very informative. I remember the conventional wisdom of a few years ago that the only truly 100% depowerable kite was the one stuffed in a bag and locked in the trunk of your car. Good job Bobby and gang.

Mark or someone needs to post pics of the 2 meter LEI he had at JIBE. It was a riot in 30 mph winds.

Feyd - 13-5-2015 at 10:08 AM

I keep thinking about grabbing an Ozone 2m LEI. I bet its a riot. I would have a 2m and 17m LEI quiver. Seems reasonable. :D

soliver - 13-5-2015 at 08:53 PM

Quote: Originally posted by acampbell  

Mark or someone needs to post pics of the 2 meter LEI he had at JIBE. It was a riot in 30 mph winds.


I'm not sure if we got pics of that... I had up my 2.6m Viper S and Jason was flying his 2m Flow... I seem to remember the wind died a little too much for the LEI to be very effective, cuz I think he packed it up after only a short while.... I kept getting over powered but Jason was doing really well with his Flow... that day was NUTS!!!

markite - 13-5-2015 at 09:34 PM

This year for JIBE I took my large LEIs expecting lighter winds so I had the light wind 17 Flite and then for laughs took that 2m LEI that I had never flown. It was a lot of fun bugging and doing any kind of upwind turns or anything backward with it because pushing the bar out it just floated there and zero kite pressure so if i got in an awkward angle the kite would wait until I cam around on the buggy to drop it back in the power. I had lent it out for a while and it got worked pretty good so the second time I took it out it felt a bit odd handling and I'm sure the main 2 lines were stretched as it kept wanting to get to the edge of the window and depower. I didn't feel like tweaking the lines at that point so it was easier to pack it up and grab another kite to try out .... but that small Libre Spirit was too high aspect ratio for the wind direction and running toward the kite slightly had a lot of the wingtip collapse happening. On the other hand the 2015 5m Lynx I've been very impressed so far in it's handling in the high winds - perfect control and stability and fun to throw it around on a rocking day.
I'll check but i don't think I had the camera on at the time I was flying the 2m LEI - it was zipping around.

Found a clip from the second time I flew it when it was acting a bit stally by comparison to the first day. You can see it's still quick and doing a nice fast upwind turn with the buggy at the end - with a slight push out on the bar the kite is just up there waiting for the dive back down into the power zone as I come around from having the kite overhead and slightly behind me.

ssayre - 14-5-2015 at 07:01 AM

it says it is private

TEDWESLEY - 14-5-2015 at 07:07 AM

On that day, we were all flying 2.5m +/- and thankful that we had smaller kites. Reminding ourselves about the advice that we give to newbies to start small and they will always have a go to kite for high winds. I think my arms
are an inch or so longer after that day, but I was more or less in control with no Oh #@%$#! moments. On the other hand, a 2.5m depower ??

markite - 14-5-2015 at 08:40 AM

Quote: Originally posted by ssayre  
it says it is private


damn, thanks I fixed that ... again. I have to check that even when I select public writing it from iMovie it seems to default to private when it converts on youtube

ssayre - 14-5-2015 at 09:10 AM

Pretty wild, I'm pretty sure I would have had lines wrapped around every axle if I tried that.

bobalooie57 - 14-5-2015 at 09:13 AM

That was great, Mark. It looked totally comfortable, even in that wind! I know even flying my 2.4M NPW in that kind of wind can be an exercise in survival! :thumbup:

robinsonpr - 14-5-2015 at 01:07 PM

Hey Bob you were talking about confidence growing as you get used to the speed. I finally got a run on a beach for the first time today and you're not kidding...first run I was sh*tting myself, but 27 miles later it felt a lot more comfortable so I opened her up a bit. Smashed my previous top speed of 26.1 with a 32.4!!

In fact, I'm gonna post about it :D

BeamerBob - 14-5-2015 at 02:09 PM

Quote: Originally posted by robinsonpr  
Hey Bob you were talking about confidence growing as you get used to the speed. I finally got a run on a beach for the first time today and you're not kidding...first run I was sh*tting myself, but 27 miles later it felt a lot more comfortable so I opened her up a bit. Smashed my previous top speed of 26.1 with a 32.4!!

In fact, I'm gonna post about it :D


See?! Now the search for a buggy upgrade begins so you can hold down the power you couldn't use in your XR. Then you'll be going out in a bit more wind and 30 mph will become no big deal. That's great you got that eye opening session. Now you're hooked.