Power Kite Forum

Frenzy vs Apex 11M

Chrisz - 4-1-2015 at 03:34 PM

I finally got a chance to try out my new 2014/2015 11m Frenzy and compared it to my 2013/2014 11m Apex. This is from the point of view of a person pretty new to the sport.

Both kites seem to have the same pull and a similar turning radius, think the similar turning radius is due to bar size. My Apex has a 65cm bar and the Frenzy came with a 55m bar.

The stiffeners in the leading edge of the Frenzy helped to get the kite in the air in light winds, it also was very good at keeping its shape.

I have a love hate relationship with the 5th line safety. The Frenzy flags out like right now, no power left in the kite. What I don't like is the extra line to get tangled up, some how it kept getting twisted, it was easy enough to untwist while riding. I cant reach the brake on any of my kites so on the Frenzy all I need to do is pull the fifth line to bring the kite down, nice!

I also had some bar bite on the Frenzy, not sure if it is because two lines going through the bar or if it is the plastic protecting the power lines. I am not sure how the plastic over the power lines is going to work in Minnesota when it gets really cold, it might have a tendency to crack.

I like the chicken loop on the Frenzy it is much smaller than the Apex, it shortens the reach to the bar by 2 inches or so.

I not sure if I like the clam cleat on the Frenzy, I pulled it in all the way and it got stuck there, I could not release it with out putting the kite back down on the ground. I am sure that is pilot error.

The biggest positive I found with the Frenzy is the depower capability, it blows the Apex out of the park. I went from almost no wind in one session to almost 20 mph before I put the kite away, still in control and not holey cow over powered.

video of both kites w/music

Apex http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CtPAMPk1SSo&feature=youtu.be

Frenzy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZAVptCRiS8&feature=youtu.be

Chrisz - 4-1-2015 at 08:12 PM

I forgot to mention I was flying through a snowstorm 1/2 hour before the video was taken and the Ozone kite was full of snow. I think it will perform much better next time out, it was just a tad bit sluggish.

robinsonpr - 5-1-2015 at 02:42 AM

Thanks for the comparisons! Great videos, looks like you have an awesome location, I'm very jealous!

I too am pretty new to the sport. Well, not in time, I took my first lessons on water around 10 years ago! But in skill level. I had a break for a while (the inconvenience of bringing up some children!) and have recently got back into it by trying to learn to landboard and buggy. I also had one try on the snow on a recent family holiday.

Interesting to see the amount of input you apply directly to the steering lines on both kites. Is that a normal thing to see or was it light wind and you were doing that to bring the kites around faster? (wind didn't look light, you seemed to be going pretty fast!)

I noticed also you were mostly changing direction with a downturn rather than going past the zenith with the kite. Is that a usual thing to do? Is it to avoid getting picked up?

UnknownAX - 5-1-2015 at 06:42 AM

Nice videos!:thumbup:
I also have a Frenzy so I might be able to comment on a few things.

I agree with you about the 5th line. (I hope) I never really need it and I rarely use it to land the kite so it seems pretty unnecessary to carry around one extra line, especially as it twists around the center line. I always have to turn the kite equally many times in both directions or do the "helicopter" to untwist it. (My kite still has the old Megatron, which doesn't swivel with the leash connected...)
Then again, a backstall safety is no fun in high winds and neither is landing the kite with it.

I have never had any bar bite on Ozone bars and the plastic is great especially when riding without gloves. (rough depower rope between your fingers = ouch! :o)
I have tested the plastic in conditions colder than anyone would like to snowkite in and have not found any problems. However, I have noticed that they have changed the plastic material over the years. My '12 Access, '13 Frenzy and '14 Catalyst all have slightly different plastic material. The '12 plastic got stiffer in the cold than the '13 plastic.
Anyway, cracking plastic parts on snowkites would be a massive design failure and something I've only seen on HQ's bars.

The clamcleat is something people either like or they don't (or they use it incorrectly and start to hate it:D). Imho it's the simplest and best system, as long as it's positioned above the bar. As you have noticed, it will get stuck if you pull it in completely, though... :)

On the Frenzy, the adjuster is only effective for ~3/4 of its travel. If you pull it in more than that, it won't further depower the kite but instead just cause the steering lines to go slack so you will only loose steering if you pull it in completely. That's due to the limited travel of the pulley system.

Chrisz - 5-1-2015 at 07:59 AM

That is nice to know about the claim cleat, I pulled it in all the way thinking I would be able to release it while under way, it got stuck so I was a little under powered in the video.

My center line was not grabing as much on the bar towards the end of my session, I am thinking it is going to get better with use, everything is a little stiff.

It is good to hear the plastic most likely is not going to crack, it gets very cold up here, it was -20 this am.

yeti - 5-1-2015 at 08:57 PM

clamcleats are good when you get used to them. I have both clamcleats and pull-pull straps on different kites. the cleats are generally more reliable but it is easy to set it in the wrong place accidentally like when it doesn't bite where you want it and you get full power instead of half.

getting it stuck must be due to pulling in so much that it starts to feed in the spliced part of the rope which is much thicker? Just need to pull really hard to undo that. Sometimes if you don't have a lot of power in the kite, it is hard to undo the setting. But same thing with straps.

The thing I have had happen with straps is that they slowly loosen, powering up the kite over time as you either carve hard or pop jumps - and you have to re-set them. cleats seem to never do that

yeti - 5-1-2015 at 09:01 PM

Quote: Originally posted by UnknownAX  

On the Frenzy, the adjuster is only effective for ~3/4 of its travel. If you pull it in more than that, it won't further depower the kite but instead just cause the steering lines to go slack so you will only loose steering if you pull it in completely. That's due to the limited travel of the pulley system.


maybe this depends on the model of frenzy or some other adjustments. Mine seems to work fine throughout. apparently the pulley travel is limiting you, but maybe that means your front and back lines have changed lengths or aren't set equal anymore?

UnknownAX - 6-1-2015 at 11:52 AM

Quote: Originally posted by yeti  

maybe this depends on the model of frenzy or some other adjustments. Mine seems to work fine throughout. apparently the pulley travel is limiting you, but maybe that means your front and back lines have changed lengths or aren't set equal anymore?


It could depend on the model but all newer Frenzies seem to do it. I've got exactly the same Frenzy as you and the lines are equally long although I will change the back lines to the shorter setting soon. Usually the front lines stretch more than the back lines, which results in more tension on the back lines.
My Access did the same thing when pulling in the adjuster completely, btw.

Anyway, you can see what I mean at 2:16 on Chrisz's video.

The clamcleat gets stuck because you need to pull in the rope a little bit to relase it from the clamcleat. When it's pulled in completely, there is no way to further pull it in... :P ...so it is stuck. Pulling hard on the rope may release it from the clamcleat because the rope compresses a bit when you pull hard on it.

robinsonpr - 6-1-2015 at 12:16 PM

Can anyone help with my questions?....sorry to duplicate, and I hope you don't mind my hijacking the thread!...

Interesting to see the amount of input you apply directly to the steering lines on both kites. Is that a normal thing to see or was it light wind and you were doing that to bring the kites around faster? (wind didn't look light, you seemed to be going pretty fast!)

I noticed also you were mostly changing direction with a downturn rather than going past the zenith with the kite. Is that a usual thing to do? Is it to avoid getting picked up?

UnknownAX - 6-1-2015 at 01:58 PM

Quote: Originally posted by robinsonpr  
Can anyone help with my questions?....sorry to duplicate, and I hope you don't mind my hijacking the thread!...

Interesting to see the amount of input you apply directly to the steering lines on both kites. Is that a normal thing to see or was it light wind and you were doing that to bring the kites around faster? (wind didn't look light, you seemed to be going pretty fast!)


The adjuster is pulled in completely. All kites turn slower with the adjuster pulled and the Frenzy's backlines even slack when depowering the kite with the adjuster pulled in. (see the video)
Without the direct input the kite probably wouldn't have made the downturns without smashing into the snow. This is also what we were discussing in the above posts.

Quote:

I noticed also you were mostly changing direction with a downturn rather than going past the zenith with the kite. Is that a usual thing to do? Is it to avoid getting picked up?


I also like to do downturns...
Anyway, the kite doesn't usually fly to the zenith in a "normal" turn either, unless you're going reeeally slow or want to get air in the turn. I think you can maintain a better, constant pull in the turn + avoid unnecessary lift if you keep the kite relatively low in turns. On skis you need the extra pull and tension on the lines in the "downwind" part of the turn because you don't just change direction like on a board, for example.:)

robinsonpr - 6-1-2015 at 02:14 PM

Thanks UnknownAX, that all makes perfect sense! I'm still finding my feet with all this!!

Chrisz - 6-1-2015 at 02:43 PM

Well said, havent had time to type a long good response. I too am still learning, it would be great if someone could post a video with a good loop from the same angle. It is hard to see what most pilots are doing with the bar and hands in mos videos.

yeti - 6-1-2015 at 08:14 PM

Quote: Originally posted by robinsonpr  

Interesting to see the amount of input you apply directly to the steering lines on both kites. Is that a normal thing to see or was it light wind and you were doing that to bring the kites around faster? (wind didn't look light, you seemed to be going pretty fast!)

I noticed also you were mostly changing direction with a downturn rather than going past the zenith with the kite. Is that a usual thing to do? Is it to avoid getting picked up?



So in general, it is not normal to have to reach above the bar to steer. When the conditions are good and the kite is adjusted to a reasonable trim, the kite will steer slowly while sheeted out with the bar, but fast enough that you may be able to get it to loop (depending on kite, conditions, etc). When the kite is sheeted all the way in with the bar (or even halfway or so), it will normally turn fast enough that a loop or even two consecutive loops should not be difficult. You may not want to do this without a full appreciation for the power that it will generate. But it's all done with your hands on the bar and no reaching.

For #2, looping while transitioning is a valid strategy for not getting picked up, but this is usually only a problem in conditions involving strong or gusty wind. Feyd from hardwaterkiter.com recently posted about this in a different thread that Chrisz started.

Looping the kite in general is great for getting moving in light wind with a kite that's a bit too small, or just generating extra power when you need it. Good to learn and practice all of these sorts of things in general - builds up a bigger bag of tricks and gives you more flexibility with handling varying conditions.

Comparing turning on land vs water is a little difficult since there are quite a few different strategies for either. On water you usually have enough power that when you bring the kite across at 12, it's going to be holding most of your weight anyway and you can almost stop dead for a short time before getting moving in the other direction. This is pretty much the first real transition that beginner kiteboarders learn in the water that doesn't involve stopping completely and re-starting.

The temporary stop is just as easy on land since you don't even need the same amount of power. But what kind of stop was it really? Harder to tell if you did it since you're not going to know at what moment you messed it up because you don't sink. It's more fun to carve out your turns anyway - both on water and snow. After some practice you tend to get better at just avoiding stopping or even slowing down. I think that whether you bring the kite to the zenith or not just depends on what's most convenient for the timing and comfort of the turn, but you'll definitely be able to maintain more speed keeping it lower. And yeah, you can get lifted doing this if part of your strategy involves bringing the kite to 12, but I used to find that it was mostly just because of not steering the kite exactly where it needed to be. For example, having it slightly to the left of 12 while you're still moving to the right (because you reacted too early or too late) is where it will start fighting your movement and may pick you up. If you do it really aggressively, the kite will just hindenburg. And that was the story for me when I was first learning how to jump. Eventually you get the timing down and those problems go away.

yeti - 6-1-2015 at 08:42 PM

Anyway, since I have no snow to kite on yet this winter, these sorts of threads are my fix. Yammering on about how I think things worked when I was learning it; hopefully worth the time it took someone else to read it. Really need some snow soon.

robinsonpr - 7-1-2015 at 02:32 AM

Great info yeti, thanks for the help! I'm still at the stage of just being able to tack reliably on my landboard. I've got a long heavy board with channel trucks that have stiff dampers in so I don't think I'll be carving any turns with that. At the moment I'm transitioning by taking the kite high while edging upwind until I come to a stop, then diving the kite in the opposite direction to get moving back the other way. I guess comparable to the transition on water when you start to sink. The kite is pretty much right at the zenith as it goes from one side to the other.

I also had a few tries in my new buggy and managed much better with a similar turn, but I was less afraid to let the kite change direction a bit faster and pull me round as I was able to follow it by steering the buggy. And of course I'm more confident sitting down and not being worried about being pulled off my feet. I think the kite stayed a bit lower in the window (though I still turned it up and over) and I kept moving with quite a bit of power, felt ok!

I would be much more confident on skiis/snowboard but unfortunately here in the UK we rarely get much snow.

Like you say, hopefully with practice it will start to fall into place (as opposed to what's happening at the moment with falling into face!)

Thanks again.

UnknownAX - 7-1-2015 at 03:13 AM

Quote: Originally posted by yeti  

For example, having it slightly to the left of 12 while you're still moving to the right (because you reacted too early or too late) is where it will start fighting your movement and may pick you up. If you do it really aggressively, the kite will just hindenburg. And that was the story for me when I was first learning how to jump. Eventually you get the timing down and those problems go away.

I remember doing this, too. I didn't redirect the kite before landing so I ended up way downwind of my kite! :D This happened like 9999 times before I realized what I was doing wrong. I even managed to get tangled up in my own kite when it hindenburged right on me! :D

Quote: Originally posted by yeti  
Anyway, since I have no snow to kite on yet this winter, these sorts of threads are my fix. Yammering on about how I think things worked when I was learning it; hopefully worth the time it took someone else to read it. Really need some snow soon.

+1
It's just ridiculously warm here. This should be January?! :puzzled:

Chrisz - 7-1-2015 at 04:20 AM

Where in the world are you that it is too warm? I have -17 below and a -41 wind chill. There is no school today for the kids!

UnknownAX - 15-1-2015 at 05:55 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Chrisz  
Where in the world are you that it is too warm? I have -17 below and a -41 wind chill. There is no school today for the kids!

61°N...
Atm it seems that winter will come back next week...
The weather situation here in Europe is pretty seriously messed up right now. I really hope I can start the snow season soon, it's already a month or two late.:(

UnknownAX - 28-1-2015 at 07:15 AM

I was looking at a 2015 snowkite review and there was something interesting mentioned about the 2015 Frenzy. It said that the AR1 line (a line in the speed system) was of the wrong lenght in early 2015 Frenzies. Apparently it made the kite prone to backstall and slow-turning.There was also a PDF describing the replacement of AR1. While I didn't find any further info on this, I'm sure Ozone / Ozone resellers would know something.