Power Kite Forum - Getting going with Depower

Getting going with Depower

soliver - 17-10-2014 at 06:16 AM

Ok,... I'm sure there are other posts out there, but lets revisit this for my sake... cuz A. I'm too busy to search and B. not sure exactly what I'd find would exactly answer My needs.

If the FedEx man shows up tomorrow before I go out kiting, I will have my new to me 12.5m Montana 5 fresh from Powerzone, so please if you will, go over the steps to launching and flying my first Depow.

You may be thinking... hey 12.5m is kinda big for a first, but my winds warrant a bigger kite. The forecast tomorrow predict 10-12mph winds gusting to 15mph which probably means it will be blowing 8 and gusting to 12 with more lulls than gusts.

Anywho... I remember 3shot had a good post for his 1st depow flight, but I'm not sure I got a good comprehensive start to finish out of it. So help a brother out here.

Mostly unsure of what to do to stake it out and how to adjust the trim strap for launch. I know some, but please go over it all.

Gracias,
S

B-Roc - 17-10-2014 at 10:30 AM

With the bar out all the way, held loosely in your finger tips just to steer it, launch the kite with your waiste as that's where the power lines are. Pull the strap in if over powered. Let the strap out if underpowered. Pull it in a touch if the winds are really light. You can't see the effects of a DP setup when flying static. The best way to figure it out is to take these simple tips and just go out and figure it out while in motion as that is when you will see how the kite reacts to sheeting on the bar and trimmer.

ssayre - 17-10-2014 at 10:45 AM

Fear doubt and uncertainty are the ways of the dark side. Use the force

MeatÐriver - 17-10-2014 at 10:58 AM

Don't over think it.. You've flown enough that you'll be fine. Just be prepared for "lift on demand"... but it's not going to lift you unless that is what you tell it to do. i.e. don't send it up with speed behind it and pop the bar.

soliver - 17-10-2014 at 12:17 PM

Quote: Originally posted by ssayre

Fear doubt and uncertainty are the ways of the dark side. Use the force

These are not the droids you are looking for

3shot - 17-10-2014 at 01:13 PM

Hey Spencer, what did they find out was the issue on your kite? Not trying to drift here..

soliver - 17-10-2014 at 01:27 PM

Not 100% sure I understand, but it had to do with LE design combined with bridle placement... According to John (I think I heard somewhere that's his name), he was able to adjust it such that the front stall wasn't as much of an issue.

Jason, I couldn't find your Depower post from a while back, can you post a linky, por favor

3shot - 17-10-2014 at 02:00 PM

http://www.powerkiteforum.com/viewthread.php?tid=28376

That's a day I'll remember for a long time. Anxiety....

Bladerunner - 17-10-2014 at 04:26 PM

Use what you know about flying on handles and treat the depower that way. The frontlines are like the top of your handles and the brake lines are on the bar. You fly on the front lines through the harness ( this is the one thing that takes some getting used to ) and turn / adjust brake tension / AOA with the bar. You park + back down the kite like you do with your other foils. Apply brake tension. I think the Montana may have a strap for that ? If not wrap the brake lines around your peg and set the bar behind it. You can also hook your safety to the peg as a back up.

Forget the term depower. It only really makes sense when in motion. Think more about front lines / back lines and how you are adjusting the angle of attack. Fly through the window on the front lines. Bar mid way or out a bit more. Add brake as you approach the edge to slow the kite and influence the turn by pulling in the bar. Just like with your FB, smooth motions started in advance are the way to go. Don't be pushing and pulling on the bar like a madman.

Meat driver is right. Don't over think it.

BeamerBob - 17-10-2014 at 04:46 PM

Stake the chicken loop and the strap that runs between the back lines to properly hold the kite down. Set your trim strap so the kite will stall when you pull the bar all the way in. This can be your guide in a wide variety of conditions.

soliver - 17-10-2014 at 05:24 PM

What's not computing for me is what to do with the trim strap and what exactly it does... Am I right that it adjusts the length of the power lines?... So pulling it in gives it more or less power?... I understand that I may be overthinking it, but I do want to understand... I won't likely be anxious until I clip in... That's just my nature.

May not even have the kite in time to take it with me :no:

Come on FedEx man!!!

BeamerBob - 17-10-2014 at 05:57 PM

It changes the length relationship between the front and back lines. Longer front lines means tighter back lines and more power if you have enough wind. Shorter front lines puts more slack on the back lines and a faster flying kite with less power. All this is referenced with the pilot in motion. For static flight, trim in about half to a third depending on where you think you are in the kites wind range. Shorten or trim in if you feel you have too much power. Likewise, trim in if you feel you don't have enough wind so you aren't stalling the kite. Half trimmed is a good place to start and then fiddle with it to observe the changes in flight.

soliver - 18-10-2014 at 06:27 AM

Everybody say a prayer for me that the FedEx dude comes before 1:00.

Where's the fingers crossed emoticon?:puzzled:

3shot - 18-10-2014 at 07:05 AM

Good luck bro! Its quite an experience. May the Force be with you. looking forward to your thoughts. :D :D :D

kiteballoon - 18-10-2014 at 12:06 PM

Good luck! May the janky wind be with you.

markite - 18-10-2014 at 01:24 PM

There are a few different aspects to consider with the trim strap and and I have slightly different ways that I use it depending on what type of kite I'm flying.

Often when describing how kites on bars work to someone with no kite knowledge I equate it to sticking your hand out the window while driving the car and tilting your hand. You feel a lot more pressure on your hand as you tilt it (pull in the bar) and you get more lift as you've increased the angle of attack. The faster you drive the more dramatic this feeling of increased pressure. It's also good to remember that if you aren't moving in the car and stick your hand out and tilt it, you will not feel any change. So do not condpfuse fully pulling in the bar in light wind as a way to get power. The increase in power goes hand in hand with kite speed. Quite often you may find it better to let the kite run and you'll feel the power and pressure build up. Pulling in the bar at that point can be used for jumping or to get a surge of power. Now at this point another result can be that with this increase in power and pressure you end up changing your line of travel to edge toward downwind more.
With bugging and you find yourself on a beach running upwind one way and more downwind the other it's good to have a larger depowerable kite where I can adjust the trim toward de power to let the kite ride as far upwind as possible and then when I turn to come downwind I load up the power because I'm heading toward the kite and don't want to over run it.
I may skip around here a bit but also keep in mind that you can stall the kite and kill power by having too much trim - usually in higher wind a kite will still fly at the edge even when fully powered but in lighter wind you may find that same setting slows the kite down or even back stalls it so you will play with that trim setting different for different wind conditions. I also find that I may have the trim set so the kite is flying fast and powered but my arms my be out further and I'm holding pressure when the bar is still a good distance from the chicken loop, so I might slightly de power the kite just so that I can pull my hands in an inch or two closer so they are at a more comfortable angle riding and not so outstretched.

Now one more overall explanation that relates a little more to some kites than others (more for arcs). Think of the possible power you can get from a kite on a scale of 1 - 10. When launching and landing depowerable kites we often use kites larger than we have been accustomed to so we want to minimize the potential power delivery when launching and landing. When a kite is flying and flying fast it will deliver power no matter what and if you were to pull in the bar to pull in the bottom of the kite we know it will increase power and increase lift. So by de-powering fully the rear lines hang slack and if by chance you pull the bar in when you don't want to the lines will not tighten up enough to pull in the bottom of the kite so this minimizes power potential until you get ready to use it by adding more trim.
Going back to this scale of power from 1-10 lets now look at moving the bar backward and forward. Let's say that for every inch you move the bar it changes the power level by increasing or decreasing by 1. Now let's say the bar only has 6 inches of travel available. So in a somewhat depowered mode the bar out has a power of 1 and as you pull it in 6 inches you can go to a max power of 6. Then as you add more power on the trim you are sliding that power available along it's scale so let's say you add a bit more power so that now with the bar out your minimum power is at 2 and you pull it in all the way you now have a max power of 8.
So trim setting adjusts the power potential within your bar movement back and forth. This is explaining it in a very simplified manner just to understand the relationship and don't take any numbers as factual.
The last part to add to this (sorry if I rambled and went all over the place) I find that some kites prefer to have the trim adjusted fully once flying and use more bar movement to adjust power than using the trim. All kites that need rear line input for steering will have diminished steering if you trim too much toward depower so if you need to adjust the trim that much to use it you are better to go down a size to have better kite performance.

3shot - 18-10-2014 at 02:19 PM

Mark at his finest! Great post bud!!!

soliver - 18-10-2014 at 06:29 PM

Indeed!... However the M5 showed up too late, ...by the time I was ripping across the park field at a screaming 22.2mph, the freshly tuned M5 was landing on my doorstep.

In spite of a cracked rim and leaking tire, the wind cranked up today and I was hummin all over that field with the 8.6m RII stropped in and I hit my 3rd fastest recorded speed (on a semi flat tire)... Absolutely killer sesh today! Even met up with Knkmanthey for the first time in a bunch of months (y'all may remember Kevin from JIBE 2013).

I'll try the M5 on some lunch breaks in the near future, definitely.

ssayre - 18-10-2014 at 07:18 PM

Glad you had a great day! I looked at the weather you had today, It looked like you probably had some decent gusts mixed in. I had been looking forward to kiting all week, but I had family stuff going on until this afternoon. I made it to my spot and unloaded my gear just in time to get poured on and soak everything. Oh well, that's the way it goes.

Kamikuza - 19-10-2014 at 02:16 AM

Don't over think it... I know I did. Just fly the thing and learn as you go!

Depower is a bad word, in my opinion. It's misleading because the trim strap doesn't reduce the power of the kite so much as limit your access to it. The whole "reducing power" is a side effect of the primary goal: tuning (trimming) your kite so it flies properly.

Trimming the kite properly allows you to maintain good body position for comfort and control, ensures the kite is flying well for the conditions. You can also "depower" the kite to avoid back stalls in light wind... See? It's a trim system

If you're big and strong and used to muscling kites on handles, then I suggest flying the depower with just two fingers looped over the bar - you'll soon get tired and will stop trying to fight the kite. You'll quickly get a feel for the wind and much you need to sheet in or out with the bar.

Today is the day

soliver - 21-10-2014 at 04:03 AM

I came into work early this morning so I could take a long lunch break and try to get this monster flying.

Wish me luck!!!

3shot - 21-10-2014 at 05:06 AM

:thumbup:

soliver - 21-10-2014 at 12:19 PM

Well that was AWESOME!!!

I had a little trouble getting situated. Like finding where to attach the leash (found it on the strap between the brake lines). Though I found another top hat (safety) above the upper limit of the bar that will release one end of the "loop" that the trim strap adjusts. When pulled, the line is released automatically lengthening the top lines and dropping the kite. I found it on accident as I was jerking the top lines to get the kite off the ground.

Makes me think I don't actually need a leash. The wind was probably between 8-12mph (maybe less) and I actually didn't have to do anything with the trim strap at all. I messed with it a little but found little to no change. I found flying it to be different than I expected, but you all were right, instinct kicked in and I found it very easy to keep it moving and in the air. I'm excited to see what I can do with it in the buggy. I found that pulling the bar slowed the kite down in the middle of the window, so Im guessing that in motion, that keeps the kite back in the window creating that power boost... am I right?

I got dragged a little bit, and had a great time for sure.

MeatÐriver - 21-10-2014 at 12:29 PM

Seems like you got it sorted just fine.Also, the leash isn't really necessary in the buggy with the top hat safety on that kite, will probably be more in the way than anything.

ssayre - 21-10-2014 at 12:44 PM

Quote:

the leash isn't really necessary in the buggy with the top hat safety on that kite

What about when he does unhooked tricks in the buggy :puzzled:

Glad you finally got to fly it.

3shot - 21-10-2014 at 02:12 PM

Congrats Spencer!!!

soliver - 21-10-2014 at 02:53 PM

Quote: Originally posted by MeatÐriver

Seems like you got it sorted just fine.Also, the leash isn't really necessary in the buggy with the top hat safety on that kite, will probably be more in the way than anything.

my thoughts exactly...

Later on after I get the kids to bed, I'll tell a bit more about the experience.

MeatÐriver - 21-10-2014 at 04:41 PM

Quote: Originally posted by ssayre

What about when he does unhooked tricks in the buggy :puzzled:

Bwahaha! How ignorant of me! In that case I guess he'll be figuring out the use of that trim strap real quick eh?

soliver - 21-10-2014 at 04:47 PM

Ok, so here's how the story went.

I showed up at the park with about 45 minutes to spare for kiting. I fumbled about a lot getting set up and hooked in and getting things all where they needed to be. I pulled the trim strap in maybe 1/3 of the way. The wind was light-ish maybe 8-10mph or less like I said above. I fiddled with the trim strap a little here and there and really couldn't tell much difference, so I gave up messing with it.

Nerves had the better of me, so at first I did exactly what you would expect a FB guy would do... Unintentionally pull in the bar while yanking the power lines to get the kite off the ground... After a few pulls with no results, I realized what I was doing and did it right... Kite lifted off and I took some time with it on the top end of the window to steer back and forth and get used to the control. I flew it around and got comfortable with it. At one point it landed on its nose and I couldn't get it to flip over trying to reverse launch.... Guess it'll just take practice. I did some figure 8s and then did a bunch of downturn figure 8s and really got a good feel for it. I got used to having to pull the bar in for turns and then let it out as it crossed the window... If I held the bar in it would act like it was going to stall out. It really had an awesome pull in that wind and as I let the bar out and it sped across the window, I could tell what someone meant (maybe BeamerBob) when they said this kite gets its power from its speed.

I tried to "send it" and pull the bar, but to no avail... No airtime for me :no:

... I'm sure I have to learn that one. I was impressed by the tight turning of such a big kite, and I was very proud of myself for slinging 12.5 meters around without any more fear.

At one point I got dragged a little on my backside... Unfortunately my harness took the brunt of the GA red clay.

All in all, I can't wait to do it again, and I can't wait to ride the bug with it.

3shot - 21-10-2014 at 05:31 PM

Sounds like you had a great fly! :cool:

soliver - 21-10-2014 at 05:33 PM

How bout you, Jason... You depowered in the bug yet?

3shot - 21-10-2014 at 05:55 PM

Not yet. I've only sat in the buggy once since JIBE :embarrased:
I've had a few static sessions with the Access, Yeti, and the arcs, but no buggy.
Uber crappy wind the last few months. My local field is really tough to fly in the summer months because its at a school. Always some sort of sports activity going on. Starts getting a lot better now. Soccer, baseball, etc, is winding down and the wind is becoming more westerly. Not to mention the last few weeks I've been bow hunting almost every afternoon. Yup, I know. Excuses excuses lol lol. Maybe ssayre can vouch for me on the hunting though at least

I'll be getting some flight time very soon. Especially with the new janky quiver.

ssayre - 21-10-2014 at 07:03 PM

Yup, nice looking buck.

I got to use the venom in the buggy when I had it. It was great on those 12 - 15ish wind days as long as you didn't have a lot of lulls. I was too chicken to use it in higher winds.

BeamerBob - 21-10-2014 at 07:30 PM

The reverse launch will work better, and impact of the trim strap will be more apparent when you get a bit more wind. Also, just a bit more wind will lift you if you whip it across zenith and pull the bar in.

Bladerunner - 22-10-2014 at 03:57 PM

Good for you!

It is hard to get much of a feel for the trim strap until you are in motion. You will notice / want to trim it when you are in " park and fly " mode. That is when you will notice a real advantage.

In general I launch trimmed in about 90% winds are usually light here and so I just leave it like that. When winds are more in the sweet spot I set my trim to about 50%. I open it up only when I am trying to jump and trim it in again if I am concerned about too much wind. That is my choice. Others tend to like to open the strap as soon as there is decent wind.

If you are having trouble backing the kite up to reverse launch you may need to grab more brake line. Big kites are a lot harder to reverse launch with.

I find it very difficult to get lifted by a kite until the wind is over 10mph. It doesn't sound like your wind was quite that strong ?

soliver - 22-10-2014 at 04:12 PM

It was right around there... It was a LOT of fun. I really liked tossing those 12.5m around and I can't wait to do it again... Especially with the buggy... I'm not concerned about jumping too much... Just thought that'd be fun.

Of course now I'm thinking about more kites though.

Somebody please put my wallet in the freezer

3shot - 22-10-2014 at 04:58 PM

Ha Spencer! Wallet in the freezer... :lol:

I'd love to score a 6m Yeti and two more NS2
I agree with Bladerunner. I found with the Access and the Yeti, it was more "comfortable" trimmed in like he stated. They get very lifty really fast with no trim in a gust (in the janky wind world). IMHO of course. Just depends on what style of flying you are after, and how far you want to press the envelope. As you know, I prefer to have a little smaller kite that I have to work the piss out of, than being on the edge of out of control from too much kite. Sadly, my X games lifestyle has long passed me by. I don't heal as fast these days LOL. Just sharing my short depower experiences so far since we are both DP noobs with similar wind. :D

Kamikuza - 22-10-2014 at 09:09 PM

8 to 10 a and a 12 won't get you much airtime unless your technique is good and aggressive.

Feel for the trim will come... play with using as little bar movement as you can and see what hapoens.

It'll be more obvious when there's power and speed in the kite... but don't fall into the trapo of thinking "Oh I got a depower, I'll be fine!"

Enjoy!