Power Kite Forum

What's needed for an LEI?

rofer - 9-8-2014 at 05:56 PM

So, thus far I've been flying foils and I figured that's all I'd be doing for a while until I came across a great deal on a 12m Caution LEI. Since it's such a good price and I'm near Candlewood Lake atm I figured I'd give some body dragging a shot.

So, now I need to figure out what I need to get this kite flying. It comes as a kite and a pump so my understanding is all I need are lines, a bar, and a harness.

The harness seems simple enough. If I understand it correctly anything sold as a kiteboarding harness (which fits me) should work.

The lines and bar are where I'm a bit unsure. I see all sorts of different bars and I'm not sure what kind I want. Ataud.Verde has "20' Peter Lynn bar and lines" for sale for $35 which is certainly in my price range. Should that just work or is there a reason I would get something else?

Finally, am I missing something? There doesn't seem to be quite as much info on depowerable kites as there is on foils.

Kamikuza - 9-8-2014 at 06:57 PM

"All I need is a bar"

If you can get a Caution bar, fine. You can DIY it if you know what it's supposed to look like, how it's supposed to be setup and how the safety works, but it's probably more work and time...

Kamikuza - 9-8-2014 at 07:05 PM

"All I need is a bar"

If you can get a Caution bar, fine. You can DIY it if you know what it's supposed to look like, how it's supposed to be setup and how the safety works, but it's probably more work and time...

bobsalinas - 9-8-2014 at 09:00 PM

be very careful what you buy and how you set that kite up. sounds like you have more questions than answers
there is a lot you need to know about LEI kites and the safety features that only instructor level guys can show you in person
do yourself a big favor and take a lesson.

Bladerunner - 9-8-2014 at 09:46 PM

Bob is right. Your post is full of red flags. I am guessing this is an old 4 line C kite. Very unforgiving. Do you know what year it is? Is it an old 4 line? Re-launch is a pain with them. I am guessing you don't know how to do so. The safeties were inadequate. You really need to be taught or at least know how to activate your safeties, re-launch and self rescue before heading out on the water. You have never flown hooked in? It is best to learn in shallows. You will literally be in over your head.

Spend your money on lessons and live to kite another day.

Sorry if I am sounding hard on you but your post is concerning.

Proletariat - 9-8-2014 at 10:35 PM

Hiya. I've had my fair share of LEI's, and have just recently been doing more water stuff. Here's the important stuff (IMO):

1. How old is this kite?
- Anything pre-2007 is probably not worth it, in my opinion. The technology has improved significantly, and a lot of the biggest improvements have been in safety.

2. Which Caution model is it?
- I don't know much about Caution kites, but it appears they're only making the Spitfire right now, which is sort of a good all-rounder. If it's an old "C" kite (meaning it basically has no sweep to it) run far away. C kites can be awesome, but only in very VERY capable hands. There's a reason they stopped making them.

3. How many attachment points does the kite have?
- Is it designed to be a 4 or 5 line? Does it have a preferred line safety flagout spot (most likely a single front line)? This will determine the bar you use.

A lot of 'generic' bars can fit on a lot of different types of kites, but you have to be really really careful. Being a self-taught noob, I accidentally hooked up the lines backwards on my first LEI (it's easier to do than you think). Luckily the wind was only about 5mph on a 13m LEI, but holy jesus were those some exciting first minutes...

Most bars cost around $400-450 new, and not much less than that used. It's not a great idea to get older tech bars, because most of the safeties are dodgy, and age doesn't help much. For LEIs, stay away from Peter Lynn bars. They might work fine, but they're really designed with different kite tech in mind. Get an LEI bar -- Ocean Rodeo, Naish, Slingshot, etc... Cabrinha bars are pretty awesome, but they have a bunch of proprietary stuff on them, so probably stay away from those as well.

I noticed Caution makes a bunch of bars. I bet one of those would work great. I looked on ikitesurf for cheap used caution bars, but no joy. Definitely check ikitesurf because I think you'll be pleasantly surprised at the variety and prices of LEI kites there:

Here are the Caution Kites -- pretty cheap in general. Ranging from $75 to about $700:

http://new.ikitesurf.com/classifieds?search=search&type=...

Last, and MOST GODDAMN IMPORTANT... please take a lesson or at least have a buddy show you around before going out and body dragging. It is a COMPLETELY different story from piloting a foil on land. My first time in the water, I had years of depower experience, a couple of buddies showing me around and I STILL accidentally power looped the kite and went sailing 5 ft into the air and was skipping across the water like a flat stone until I could get it under control.

If you're bound and determined anwyay:
1. Test the safety before you get wet. Make sure it does what you think it does.
2. NEVER STOP PILOTING THE KITE (experience speaking)
3. If it's gusty, don't go. Choose a mellow wind day to play around.
4. Learn self rescue techniques before you go
5. Learn to drag upwind before you do anything else.

Good luck... lemme know how it goes.

Incidentally, I AM selling a Cabrinha kite that might be a good fit for you. What were you going to spend on the Caution? Here's my ad:

http://www.powerkiteforum.com/viewthread.php?tid=28941

And I have a Flysurfer Infinity 1 bar that I could sell for quite a bit less than $400. Then all you'd need is lines / leash / harness. Actually, I suppose I could throw in a leash. Anyway, just thinking out loud. Lemme know how it goes.

Proletariat - 9-8-2014 at 10:45 PM

Oh, sorry... I got all rambly and I meant to say:

1. You probably only need 4 lines
2. You'll need a safety leash (they're typically about $50)
3. Bar + Lines is typically the way to stay cheap. Here are a few cheap ones:

Various Bars in Various Shapes:
http://new.ikitesurf.com/classifieds/9701?search=search&...

Various 4-line Bars:
http://new.ikitesurf.com/classifieds/9647?search=search&...

$100 Air Rush Bar
http://new.ikitesurf.com/classifieds/9725?search=search&...

Anyway, you get the idea. As far as I know, only the Cabrinha bars and the Peter Lynn bars have the danger of being weirdly proprietary, but I could be horribly mistaken. I know my flysurfer bars work on just about anything, including 5-lines.

rofer - 10-8-2014 at 06:22 AM

So, most important thing first, lessons aren't really possible right now due to a combination of cost and location.

However, I'm not trying to learn kitesurf. All I want to do is body drag up and down the lake which doesn't get much wind in the summer. I don't think it gets beyond Bf 2 and I'm comfortable staying in if things get windier or gustier (or more likely just switching to my other kites on the land). I definitely don't intend to take this kite out on the land where winds seem gustier and the terrain a lot less forgiving.

The only reason I'm considering this is because I found the kite barely used for $60. The guy who's selling it has never used it and doesn't know much about kiteboarding, so I don't think he knows anything beyond the brand and the size. If it is an old c-kite is it not even worth that? Again, all I want to do is learn more about flying kites and body drag a bit.

It's not too late to reconsider though, especially if people really do think lessons are essential just for body dragging. I'm good at reading and I won't go out without knowing what I should be doing, but I don't have anyone who can show me. Worst case I stick with learning to windsurf on the lake and flying my kites over the land.

Bladerunner - 10-8-2014 at 08:37 AM

The fact you can't take lessons is only 1 red flag.

The fact the kite is going to be an old C kite is another.

The fact you have no hooked in experience is another.

The fact you don't know how to hook up and test safeties on a bar is another.

The fact you are looking at $60 dollar kites and $35 dollar bars is another.

The fact you don't know how to self rescue is another.

The fact that it takes a good amount of wind to body drag upwind and you don't get strong wind is another ............ I could go on.

Are there not other kiteboarders on that lake ? If not then there is a reason!

PHREERIDER - 10-8-2014 at 08:46 AM

good wind and good gear make a difference and makes all easier.

old gear, is fragile, the last $50 kite i bought required every valve to be reattached and a giant blow on the dump...but i knew how fix it easily. the old kite might pump , but first bit of stress.... and its just the beginning of chronic failure.


though kiting on water can be done in light air but it is not for learning. for learning you need 15knts +, really solid power much less and its just struggle.

having a model to follow is priceless, you need to see folks doing it and doing it properly and have them spot you at least for first several hours even more if less kite skill.

Pro has given solid advice for moving into water, good luck




bobalooie57 - 10-8-2014 at 09:58 AM

Quote: Originally posted by rofer  


However, I'm not trying to learn kitesurf. All I want to do is body drag up and down the lake which doesn't get much wind in the summer. I don't think it gets beyond Bf 2 and I'm comfortable staying in if things get windier or gustier (or more likely just switching to my other kites on the land). I definitely don't intend to take this kite out on the land where winds seem gustier and the terrain a lot less forgiving.

Again, all I want to do is learn more about flying kites and body drag a bit.




If that's ALL you want to do is body drag, get a 5-7M NPW, learn to fly it on land, then hooked in with a harness, and with a decent onshore wind, you can body drag up and down the coast all day if you like. Of course, if you put it in the water, you'll have to gather it up, take it out on shore, re-launch and fly it dry. The beauty about the NPW is being single skin it doesn't fill with water, and fly's wet/quickly dries. Any REAL kiteboarding should be precluded by lessons, for sure.

ssayre - 10-8-2014 at 10:20 AM

Here's a nasa wing on the water

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyCYnt3DGBo

3shot - 10-8-2014 at 10:38 AM

Cool video Sean!!

Bladerunner - 10-8-2014 at 10:52 AM

Nasa Star and a typical Nasa wing are a bit different but that is a great idea. :thumbup:

Nasa Star is better suited to a bar and depowers so is a better choice. You get what you pay for!

rofer - 10-8-2014 at 12:26 PM

Looks like I just won't get the kite then. Thought at the price it'd be worth it, but everyone has pointed out quite a few problems with this. I'll just wait until the lake freezes over this winter to take my kites out on it.

Thanks for all the advice!

Bladerunner - 10-8-2014 at 02:42 PM

Sorry I couldn't be more encouraging. As I mentioned If people aren't kiteboarding on your lake there is probably a reason. The sport is popular enough on water now that most any location that is suitable has people going there.

I learned on old C kites and also ended up skipping along the water like a tossed stone. If I hadn't finished up in the shallows I would have been in big trouble. With the wind knocked out of me I seriously doubt I could have self rescued even though I had been taught how to in lessons. Trying to re-launch them was a true pain. Bladders age and that kite was likely to cause you all sorts of trouble.

I paid $700 and $1000 for my C kites used in 04 / 05 and they were only worth $100 by 2009

For now you should get a harness and start getting used to flying hooked in. It will be a huge advantage with that 8m out on the snow.

Kamikuza - 10-8-2014 at 04:06 PM

"Due to cost"

Not really a sport you can do on a budget... If you want to jump in the water and body drag around, anything that holds air is fine but you still need bar, lines, leash, harness. Just make sure you have plenty if room downwind and the water is at least chest deep. Body dragging is a big step away from riding a board though...

rofer - 10-8-2014 at 04:26 PM

Bladerunner: I wanted advice and you gave me some. I get that I'm not always going to hear what I want and I'm glad there are people like you who are willing to say what I might not want to hear.
Also, I was planning on just snow kiting entirely on handles without a harness. Beyond taking some strain off my arms and changing the point the kite is pulling on me is there any reason to fly hooked in?

Bladerunner - 10-8-2014 at 04:58 PM

Not exactly but with the 8m you will find that taking the strain off of your arms will mean you can ride all day. Without a harness you will burn out fast with a larger kite.

If you ever want to advance to depower kites and depower kites are better for snowkiting then getting used to being hooked in will be an advantage down the road.

I used fixed bridle kites my 1st year snowkiting but found that depower was a real advantage since the wind changes in different parts of the lake + it was easier to handle gusts with a depower. With fixed bridle I would end up under powered and then overpowered depending on where I was on the lake. Still you will have a blast with the kites you have !

LEI work great as snowkites. I wasn't saying not to buy an LEI just not an old C kite.

I am glad you understand I wasn't coming down on you. I hate handing out bad news. Really just trying to save you some money and Agro'. Trying to re-launch old C kites in low wind is truly a pain.

If jumping isn't important to you, those Nasa Star kites are something worth looking at. Very versatile and safe.

rofer - 10-8-2014 at 05:19 PM

I think I'm going to have to figure out the burning out thing on my own. Right now I like the idea of getting more of an arm workout, when my arms are all aching I want to get out on the lake again I might feel different though :p

I think I'm definitely going to move up to depower kites eventually, but right now the combination of cost and low-end means I'll probably be sticking with fixed bridles for a while.

Also, the Nasa Star kites definitely have my attention, but I'm also going to want to jump when I'm more comfortable and have better winds.

Proletariat - 10-8-2014 at 08:17 PM

Depow! Depow! Depow! :)

Blade is spot on, and very righteous of you to listen to his sage advice. It's hard to make good kite decisions when you have a raging kite hard-- erm... Are very excited. I agree that it would just be $60 down the tubes. BUT! There is hope.

First, I totally agree that you should take your FB kites out in some shallow onshore and do some body dragging. That'd be fantastic experience and if they crash, you,ll be mostly on the beach anyway. The only problem is that body dragging is all about being able to stay upwind, and you can't really fly handled kites with one hand (freeing up your second hand for a rudder).

But it IS possible to get going on a budget, imo. You just need to choose your kit wisely and wait for some deals. I bought my harness from a buddy for $25. I bet you could get into a older, but not that dangerous LEI for about $300. Check ikitesurf, nwkite, and this forum for arcs and flysurfers. I just sold two flysurfers that would be just fine in the water for $700 shipped (I gave the guy a wicked deal). That's about $325 per kite, after shipping.

So, for around $350, you can be rigged up with passable gear in my opinion (bump it to $600 and you'll be styling). But don't waste your money on weird deals that seem to save you money, because they don't. I went through like 6 kites trying to save money in my first year and I realized I ended up spending enough on the shuffle to buy a few brand new kites. Bummer. Go get yourself a nice cheap 2009-2011 Cabrinha or slingshot or something and read lots of books and read kitemares and find a mentor and future you will really thank present you. :)

rofer - 10-8-2014 at 08:23 PM

I'm just putting the body dragging on hold for now. Sounded like fun, but I'm going back to Pittsburgh for a while so if I could do it for $100 then sure, but at $350 it just makes sense to wait until later. There's still plenty I can do with my kites on the land.

Proletariat - 10-8-2014 at 08:44 PM

So, in other words, you're just going back to body dragging on land. :)