Power Kite Forum

Which ARC for water

grigorib - 6-25-2014 at 11:10 AM

I rode Guerilla II 13m and S-ARC 630 on water, enjoyed them to some extent, had good relaunches, nice zenith and pull. What I was less excited about were relatively higher drag and as a result kite being set further back in the wind window and also more complicated self-landing, again due to higher drag. 13m is gone and 630 is too high-wind of an ARC kite for me and I like a bit more back lines / bar pressure than S-ARC. Still fostering love and respect to ARCs design I figure I should be interested in having one "ideal ARC" that would work the best on water in 10-16 or 16-20 knot winds.

The question - which one and which size is the best ARC riding experience on water?

Riding style wise I enjoy ridng 8m LEI or 10m Speed and like less dealing with 12m LEI but when desperate I'd go riding 12m/16m even they're slower and not that much fun.

If you have one you would suggest I'd love to hear an opinion.

Thanks

Demoknight - 6-25-2014 at 11:40 AM

I am not a water kiter, but all the guys I see riding arcs on the water now (mostly Carl) are on Charger 2s. For those winds, you might be able to make a 12m work, but I would say go with 15m or 18m because they overlap a bit since the wind range is so large on them.

grigorib - 6-25-2014 at 11:52 AM

What about the drag, I guess that particular inefficiency and its consequences bugged me the most. If you look at an older ARC mid-air, the cells near trailing edge resemble a puffy matrace a little bit rather than a wing.
Do you think Chargers are different in that regard?

carltb - 6-25-2014 at 01:04 PM

thw guerrilla and s arc are very old kites. they were good in their day but the modern arc is a totally different animal
the kite for you would be the 15m charger2 and a 12 for high wind days. the side profile of the charger is more wing shaped so no puffy trailing edge

http://www.peterlynn.com/kiteboarding/charger/

http://www.peterlynn.com/downloads/manuals/peter-lynn-twinsk...

Snake - 6-25-2014 at 01:13 PM

The synergy is the first arc with shaped panels. That means the outside skins are shaped rather than just being rectangles. The trailing edge is smoother as a result. I don't think it has much effect on the 'drag'. It makes the kites faster but makes them less powerful too. That's why people compare a 15m syn to a 13m venom but a 13m scorp is comparable to a 13m venom. VPC plays a much larger role than the shaped panels and there isn't a arc without VPC and shaped panels so we will never know how much difference it makes.

The drag you are referring to is a result of the lift to drag ratio(L/D). That is the total amount of lift divided by the total amount of drag. This determines the max speed achievable(in a frictionless world), how far back in the window the kite sits, and the overall efficiency. This is usually a coefficient of 4-8 for power kites. Kites with a L/D of 4-5 are usually grunty and sit far back in the window, such as guerillas. Kites with a L/D of 7-8 don't have much grunt but hug the edge of the window, such as f-arcs and speed 3s.

There are many more factors than edge puffiness that determine the L/D, such as aspect ratio, surface texture, weight, ect.

grigorib - 6-25-2014 at 02:12 PM

My high aspect ratio kites (Speed, Liquid Force NRG) park pretty close to edge of the window which results in epic upwind, and they're lofty in a jump as well. On the other hand my LEIs Slingshot Rally or Liquid Force Envy sat deeper and were more grunty/wakestylish but also supressed gusts better and had more of a "stable" feeling than longer and flatter-profile NRG.

Where would rather Chargers fit in above mapping?
How does bar pressure feels on them?
Jumping with Chargers - is technique closer to jumping LEIs or to jumping S-ARC?

PHREERIDER - 6-25-2014 at 06:25 PM

15m charger is gonna be same as 13m lei hybrid/delta. maybe quicker . the newer ch has less cord so little better to edge. arcs really would not be a low wind, low speed grunt kite, like lei, arcs need speed . arcs jump more similiar to lei . the overall rate of power in arcs is not as harsh as lei. bar pressure is present just a fraction more than lei but not jerky vague like front line bias lei 's . everything is just smoother like FS but not as sensitive, a FS speed upwind is gonna be as steep as it gets!

the envy would be most like a charger, the charger being faster turning . the envy would have a better low end about a 1 knot difference perhaps.


PHREERIDER - 6-26-2014 at 05:47 AM

have to mention the grunty arcs are venom I, II . just more EFFECTIVE projected area per size. not as quick as newer and certainly more bar pressure. and will get going on water around 12knots. depowered they are quick, tough and as simple as it gets . still have, still use every venom i have has no less than 2000 hours on them ..CH2 would be choice now, you just have to get the next size up

grigorib - 6-26-2014 at 08:31 AM

So if I get it right, for best fun experience on water I should look for a medium-smaller ARC of 10m and ride it in 18-22 knot winds. I should expect smoother (compared to LEIs) and more direct (compared to S-ARC) bar control and kite reaction, the kite will be rather wakestylish (which for strong wind is perfectly fine) and a Venom/Charger will have less drag than older ARC models.

Have I got it right?

Snake - 6-26-2014 at 09:27 AM

Any kite pre-venom kite will not fit your needs. Venom I or II, Synergy, Charger I or II, or Phantom II would be good choice. Scorpions are designed for land based kiting so they aren't a very good choice on water and vortexs are beginner kites so they are designed to have drag. Venoms will be more of a mix of old and new and syn, ch, and ph will all be faster and turn faster with less drag.

PHREERIDER - 6-26-2014 at 10:41 AM

Quote: Originally posted by grigorib  
So if I get it right, for best fun experience on water I should look for a medium-smaller ARC of 10m and ride it in 18-22 knot winds. I should expect smoother (compared to LEIs) and more direct (compared to S-ARC) bar control and kite reaction, the kite will be rather wakestylish (which for strong wind is perfectly fine) and a Venom/Charger will have less drag than older ARC models.

Have I got it right?


no, BIGGER arc, if you think 12m lei then a 15m charger 2 matches power. at 200# i would ride 12m charger in heavy 30knots no problem, never used 10m charger ever

VI, VII 13m is as close to a 12m lei as PL even came in power efficiency , SYN and newer will have to go to 15m for same power


BeamerBob - 6-26-2014 at 10:42 AM

VPC bridle can be adjusted so that it isn't affecting steering inputs. I had my Phantom IIs VPCs "turned off" to diminish steering speed.

The reason the Venom 13m size matches power with 15m arcs that came after it is that when the Venoms were being made, their size was measured with the kite inflated. Subsequent arcs were measured flat with no inflation, which increases the measurable area of the kite, but is not as representative of the real size when comparing to older arcs.

grigorib - 6-26-2014 at 12:48 PM

So in 20 knots I would be already on my 8m LEI, I'm pretty efficient with a kite. Still would 10m Charger be too small as equivalent?

Demoknight - 6-26-2014 at 01:38 PM

10m is pushing it. You can safely land kite on a 12m Charger 2 in upwards of 25knots or slightly more before stepping down to a smaller size. Water has got to favor a size larger kite. For the winds you quoted to begin with, I would not recommend smaller than a 12m arc. They have a very large wind range, so you can make a larger size work well in higher winds before having to step down in size.

grigorib - 6-26-2014 at 02:20 PM

Pretty cool. Thank you all for info!
Kiting community is never short of fueling and lightening up their own and each of their members' addiction :)

PHREERIDER - 6-26-2014 at 05:58 PM

you must weigh about 65 kilos...you would need an arc with somewhere around 6.5m Project area ... a 10M CH has 6.3m PA

with fast board and flat water it would be nice and quick!

markite - 6-26-2014 at 08:02 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Snake  
Any kite pre-venom kite will not fit your needs. Venom I or II, Synergy, Charger I or II, or Phantom II would be good choice. Scorpions are designed for land based kiting so they aren't a very good choice on water and vortexs are beginner kites so they are designed to have drag. Venoms will be more of a mix of old and new and syn, ch, and ph will all be faster and turn faster with less drag.


I actually used my 16 scorpion on water for years and had great riding with it and some of the most vertical jumps. But in wave conditions there would be moments of power lags if back drifting heading toward the kite (like most arcs) and you need to get it going. The phantom 2 I wouldn't recommend on water because they just don't have the grunt power needed for water. They are fast but many times I find I need to go up a size going to P2s on land and even then there just isn't the same grunt power needed. Even a friend with an 18 P2 found it difficult to get power to get going unless he was using it in the same wind as his 12-13 LEI.
I really like a charger 2 - 15m