Ready to progress...

Thanks abkayak!

I'm in Dallas, TX and I weigh 185..

I know dp is depower, but what is fb foil something?

I picked up a bern helmet before I went out for the first time. I'm old enough that I don't care about "looking cool" by riding without a helmet!

Any opinion about using LEI's for landboarding?

Thanks!

Thanks for the replies, flyguy/bladerunner.

The more I read your suggestions/the forums the more I think an arc might just be the ticket for me at the moment.

> I suggest you get the 1st ( small ) kite in a closed cell foil or arc design. Once you are not crashing then go LEI in the mid range. When you go to water you will have a high wind kite to go to if the winds are too much for your mid range LEI. Far better to have a high wind kite than low wind kite on water . Low wind riding isn't too exciting.

This makes a lot of sense to me! I think I'll try to buy along this exact path.

There's a sweet Phantom 2 for sale in the forums but its a 9 (missed the boat on the 12 ) I really want to pull the trigger but I'm concerned that might be too small. For my winds a 12m arc would probably be a better choice.

Sweeet.. It's all taken care of. I have the large TS bar from Beamer bob and the 13m venom 1 from AD72 on the way. Very excited!

Quote:

Arcs are scary looking when sitting on the ground. They are so much larger than the other kites but not when you measure their "projected area "

I'm pretty sure anyone seeing me fly this thing around here is gonna think I'm insane. I already get a bunch of weird looks with my little 3M scout.. imagine when i bring out this monster and start jumping around!

Quote:

If I am correct the VI only has a center fill zipper. What I do with my Phantom and no fan is fill it , push the air up by rolling the kite toward the top end and the refill the bottom.

I'm sure that will make more sense to me once i get the kite (the rolling the kite parts).. I'll keep it in mind

Quote:

Just curious how much the VI is going for. Around $350 complete with 04 bar and leash ( ask for the leash! ) or functional bar seems about right ? They can be found cheaper but ...

Quote:

Just curious how much the VI is going for. Around $350 complete with 04 bar and leash ( ask for the leash! ) or functional bar seems about right ? They can be found cheaper but ...

I got the new large TS navbar from beamerbob for $150 and the kite for $250. So $400 for a setup with a new model bar seems like a pretty great deal!

The only part in question is the leash. I hope it comes with the leash but I didn't know to ask beamerbob.. (that being said, I would have bought it anyway )

Quote:

If you find you like arcs be sure that they got better once they added a bridle. You can stick with arc and still up your performance dramatically

Do you mean the newer ones like the charger 2 have a bridle as opposed to just the side connections? My plan is to rock this v1 for a while to learn and then take a look at getting something like a charger 2 once I can handle it properly and not worry about screwing up a new kite. Better to learn on used stuff than make mistakes on new stuff!

Quote:

Also the local club DAKO (Dallas Area Kitefliers Organization) has a large contention of guys doing what you are doing. and we are pretty active in the area.

Sounds good! Looking forward to meeting you!

You should be able to walk upwind with your Scout in the air as long as there is enough wind for it to sit at the edge ? Just set it at 2 or 10 and walk upwind? If the kite won't hang on the edge of the window from above your head down to the ground on each side then the wind is likely not strong enough ? ( or your kite isn't tuned right) This would explain why you can't get upwind ?

If your winds are too light for your scout to sit at the edge chances are you won't get auto zenith or upwind from your arc either ?

I knew if Bob hadn't planned on including a leash He would get you one knowing you will need it. He is one great guy to deal with !

>Just set it at 2 or 10 and walk upwind? If the kite won't hang on the edge of the window from above your head down to the ground on each side then the wind is likely not strong enough ? ( or your kite isn't tuned right) This would explain why you can't get upwind ?
I think the winds weren't strong enough or were too variable.. I lack the experience to know for sure. What I do know is if I can't do it with the 13, its definitely a skill issue!

>If your winds are too light for your scout to sit at the edge chances are you won't get auto zenith or upwind from your arc either ?
Here's to hoping that's not the problem then!

> I knew if Bob hadn't planned on including a leash He would get you one knowing you will need it. He is one great guy to deal with !
Yeah I kinda screwed up and sent payment as goods, not knowing that I should have done it as friends to save fees (I haven't purchased things via a board much in the past). Whoops. Sent a few extra bucks to help cover my stupidity. He seems like a really cool guy so I didn't want to screw him over!

Thanks for the advice guys!

> Maybe my advice to roll the kite up from the bottom pushing the air to the top and then refilling the bottom makes more sense now ?
Yeah it deff does make more sense. There's a few more good wind days coming so I'll be back out there quickly!


>Line management is also important. If your lines aren't clear and the downwind lines running over top of the kite getting the down wind tip to lift and catch wind isn't likely.
This is really been the thing that kills me. If I don't get it launched right and it flips or twists, the line s are all messed up. I think both times I flew the wind was a bit shifty so thats at elast part to blame, but its still pretty frustrating!


> Pack up depends on if I am using it again soon. Park it, clam it,( Bring the downwind wingtip up with the top ) (( keep the baton pointed low as you bring it forward to avoid catching wind )), weight it, open the deflate zipper. Roll up your lines while it starts to deflate. If you are keeping it all together put the bar on the kite and roll the air out. Strap and pack. If you need to pack small. Remove the bar. Still roll the air out but then unroll it and remove your spars. The fold it stomping the air out as you go. Strap and pack.

SUPER helpful description. So for some dumb reason I actually rolled the whole thing up from flat instead of claming it and then rolling it. I have no idea what I was thinking (In my defense, I was pretty exhausted at this point.. and certainly not thinking straight.)

I will deff be out again soon with it. I'm really hoping to get some actual board time in too next time. Between the descriptions above and the realization that i really need to fully fill the kite to make it work, I think things will be much easier next time

Feeling MUCH better today. Went to the bigger field I was talking about over lunch. The goal wasn't to have a long session, but to practice setup and teardown. Total round trip time: 1:10.. 20 to get there and unpack, 20 to fly, 20 to pack and get back, 10 to shower.. I am pleased as I'm sure a few more trips and I'll shave a good bit of time off of that.

As for flying, I think the wind was a little too powerful for my current skill level. I flew it for about half the time, mostly with the bar out (a bit too scared to pull it in.. not really ready to jump yet.. at least not in that wind..) and the rest was on the board. I got a few good runs, but no upwind at all... I wasn't in enough control for that. One time I did get going a bit too fast for my comfort, but managed to keep it together. Only once did i get dragged across the field on my back! Heh.

Now I'm really excited about progressing to the cruising stage. It does feel a little bit like snowboarding, which is the real reason I took an interest in the sport, but also totally different because you don't just randomly accelerate on a snowboard!


BeamerBob:
Yeah the lines cleaned up very nicely! You can tell that they’re used, but that doesn’t bother me at all! Thank’s for the help!

PhreeRider:
Yeah I agree.. I’m going to do short trips like this I think to get a lot of setup and pack down practice. I do wish there was a better way to land thing thing than to bring it down and pop the bar. It kind of makes a mess of the lines.. Is there a better way to do it than that, or a way to do it without making a mess of the lines?

Bladerunner:
5 minutes is deff the target! Thanks again for that description, it really helped today make it much more tolerable. I think the other day I was pretty delirious from exertion when packing down so I wasn’t thinking straight. Claming it and then rolling the bar in seems to be the way to go!

Big points for having the ballz to launch and fly in well powered conditions. It is something I still struggle with. Then I get the arc up and ( usually ) wonder what I was worried about.

Get in the habit of keeping it off to the side a bit when not setting up to ride. Auto zenith is a wonderful thing but keeping the kite overhead is what usually leads to unexpected lofting. Off to the side and you are more likely to get sent down wind/ absorb the gust.

If you fly with the bar out completely then you lose the opportunity to push out ( de-power ) if a gust hits. Play with the trim strap so the kite flies well with the bar in the middle.

Pulling the bar in a bit as you turn the kite is important for adding input to the kite.

I had the opposite problem starting out and kept overdoing my upwind. If you were going too fast you should have leaned back and turned upwind to slow down.

I ended up with " up on my toes , down on my butt " going on in my head when it clicked. Meaning, When the kite is up and not producing power I could go up on my toes. When the kite i headed down in a power stroke I get down on my butt and turn upwind .

The stronger I feel the kite pulling , the smaller I make my body / center of gravity. Far better to be down low pushing your feet out and hitting your butt than going over the top.

Each trip out will get better. ( with a few bad days thrown in )

> Play with the trim strap so the kite flies well with the bar in the middle.
This might seem like a dumb question, but what does "flies well" mean.
What kind of behaviors do you look for when you're evaluating/adjusting your trim
strap?

>Get in the habit of keeping it off to the side a bit when not setting up to ride.
Do you do this by continually steering it to keep it to the side? I don't know
if it was because of my lack of experience or tuning, but when left fully depowered, it
wasn't just staying put where I left it. I do think the winds were shifting around
a bit though.


>Play with the trim strap so the kite flies well with the bar in the middle.
Good advice. I hadn't thought about that, but it makes sense. One thing I
noticed is that the depower lines seemed like they had more play in them than
I'd expect. They were curved quite a bit. Is this normal or should they be
fairly straight/tensioned?


>I am thinking that your Venom I has only got a fill zipper in the middle like
my Phantom of that generation ?
Actually it does have fill zippers on the ends and a deflate in the center.
To help aid the process I bought this stupid little portable fan.
(http://amzn.to/1iTNnAG) It's not super powerful, but it did seem to help move
air in.

It also actually has the launch assist tabs, but I haven't really figured out
how to make them work for me. I've watched the videos on it, but They usually
just seem to fall out and not really help the way the videos show them helping!

It doesn't have the Adjustable straps or VPC stuff...

> When you are falling in love and hate with your Venom
I'm pretty sure it's all love. I'm not going to blame the kite for my own lack
of experience and technique. Tis the shoddy craftsman that blames his tools!

>If you find arcs work for you then buying something newer will also be money
well spent
Definatly.. I like what I've read about the charger 2's.. Will eventually be
looking at those for sure! I still want to get into the water at some point,
but it seems like Arc's can be good on the water as well as the land, even though
LEI's seem more popular..

>You can always sell off a Venom!
Not a chance! At least not for the foreseeable future!

Demoknight:
Thanks for the info on that. I think the video you were talking about was:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3MtHy-v3ZE

I will deff try this the next time I go out. One thing that isn't clear to me..
In the video, When he lets go of the bar, it makes sense to me that it would lay
down, but when he pulls the line in, I don't see the bar connected.. what's up
that.. I'd think the bar should still be on the end of the line? Am I missing
something?

>It is consistently less than 10 minutes to unpack, launch, land, and pack up.
> It takes me longer to put my harness on than it does to launch the kite now, lol.

Awesome! it's good to know there's hope. One hesitation I had with ARC's was that
there's lots of people talking about how much effort it takes to fly one vs
a fixed bridal.. I generally can find some time to go fly, but not extended
periods of time, so speed to launch/land is very important!

Thanks guys!
Aaron (is my name)

another happy customer.....keep it up in only gets better

Sounds like you are rolling.

Try and gain upwind while in your power stroke if wind is too light to " park and ride ". Your tracks will end up in a similar sine wave as your kite. Curving upwind where you stroked and a bit downwind as you coast between power strokes. If wind is strong enough to park the kite find a spot upwind and look at it . You tend to go where you look.

Kami is right on about depower being a confusing term. Think more like Front lines , back lines. Front lines cut through / spills the wind and speeds up the kite through the window. Making it sit farther ahead in the window .( Hand flat out the car window ) Back lines catch the wind stalling speed and speeding turns creating lift. With back lines in your kite will sit a bit back in the window catching more wind. ( Hand cupped / tipped back out the car window )

Play with your hand out the car window and pretend it is a kite. It teaches a LOT about depower.

When in motion with the kite at the edge pulling the bar in does add power ( lift ) . That is why it gets the name .

Some kites like Spleene are different. They are bridled to change the kites projected area as well as AOA . They are a bit closer to true depower ?

Ride on !

Thanks everyone! Yeah it feels awesome.. Exactly what I was looking for, something that can bring me the feeling of snowboarding, even though I don't live anywhere near snow anymore. The best part is, kites seem to be useful when I do go near snow as well!

kami/bladerunner: Yeah that's true. I guess what I meant is that I was riding with the bar about half way in, so when a gust hit I could let the bar out and ride out the gust. I'm an engineer so I'm a stickler for the technical details as well!

So of course now that I've been bitten by the bug, the immediately question becomes what's the next kite for the quiver. I'm not ready to buy just yet unless the right opportunity were to come along, but I see theres a 19m venom for 300 right now for sale. I'm wondering if maybe that's a bit too big? (I clearly lack a lot of experience still) In my location, winds look like they drop off pretty substantially in the summer, so maybe it would be good for those purposes.. Or should I be looking at something like a 15m charger, 16m venom or mid size LEI.. That would be more along the lines of what bladerunner suggested initially.. Too many options..

The 19 Venom is not to big for you since you are slightly above average weight. You probably can't hold it down in 20 mph winds, but you don't need to fly it in those winds anyway. The 19 is a huge intimidating kite when you lay it out on the ground. It's like 33 feet long and stands maybe 18 inches off the ground when fully inflated. But when you launch it, you realize you are in total control and it isn't full of surprises. If you whip it across zenith and pull the bar in, ok you might get a surprise lift off the ground, but otherwise it stays where you put it and is like leaning back while attached to a wall if you have enough wind to power it up. I have pictures somewhere of Wexler when he was like 12-13 years old sitting in a beach chair flying a 19m Venom. It's that docile.

Something to think about when setting the trim on your kite, is when you start moving, your forward speed will put air pressure on the back lines, effectively making them seem tighter or shorter. This might not really be a factor at landboard speeds, but since you like to analyze and understand how things work, it's a factor to consider.

Had another sweet session last night! I initially launched with one line wrapped around another, but was able to quickly land, fix and launch again.

I didn't really do any jumps, but got some speed built up once or twice. Wind was around 15mph or so.. Super fun! Unfortunately the field I fly in is pretty bumpy with sun-hardened dry clay + rocks + grass. At the end of the session I popped a tire. Pretty bummed about that... So where do I go to buy new tubes? Suggestions on best/most economical place? I assume that I can patch the tube the same way you patch a bike tube. I might even get some "mr. tuffy" liners for the wheels to prevent this from happening again. Anyone have any experience with this?

Quote: Originally posted by BeamerBob

Something to think about when setting the trim on your kite, is when you start moving, your forward speed will put air pressure on the back lines, effectively making them seem tighter or shorter. This might not really be a factor at landboard speeds, but since you like to analyze and understand how things work, it's a factor to consider.

That is pretty interesting to think about. When I'm flying, my nerd brain is still very much thinking about fluid dynamics around the kite. I guess it's something hard to turn off. Well at least until you accidentally drop it too far into the "power zone" and take off like a bullet!

Quote: Originally posted by flyguy0101

I prefer to fly my 13m venom or 15m charger2 in the lower wind range and higher- you can really whip it around to generate power in the lower winds and great for park and ride when higher. I would lean towards a 16 venom whole lot faster and more useful wind range for you- in the arc range- i think; not much knowledge on the others but am thinking about LEI in my future.

It seems like when applying the general advice I'm getting here, I'll steer away from the 19 for now. I'm pretty interested in the 16 venom or the 15 charger2 just like you. Im curious why you sold your 16 v2 for the charger2. What differences do you notice? If you could do it again, would you make the same moves? Are newer kites 3x+ better to justify the 3x+ price? Just curios/doing my research!

Quote: Originally posted by OmniSmurfZ

Congrats on the awesome session K! Giving me some inspiration to hop on that board and keep working at it. I have yet to board with it as my board skills are not that great In perfect conditions I think its my favorite kite.

Thanks man! Yeah I think my board skills are pretty good because I've spent so much time on a snowboard.. If I might make a suggestion, if you are like me and can't go snowboarding, consider getting a regular skateboard and kicking around. Find a little hill you can cruise down. The feeling's pretty similar, its all about leaning the right amount and controlling your center of gravity. It's harder to do on a skateboard (I don't have much experience with cruisers, so it might be easier with them) but when you really get a nice carve in, it feels amazing. I am ultimately interested in doing some big jumps, but I think holding off on the 19 right now seems like the right path. One thing I know for sure... I need to actively fight the urge to buy all the kites!

Quote: Originally posted by PHREERIDER

V16 is steerable power over the 19 and if not going into a buggy? then only if it fits your wind range.

Your weight and kite list is probably pretty similar to where I'm going. ThanS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s for that! Super helpful!

Maybe I'm being dense, but what did you mean by if not in a buggy, then only if it fits your wind range? Sounds like you think its a bit too much power for a landboard?

Quote: Originally posted by Bladerunner

It sounds like you will be looking for a lower wind kite next ? People who have Venoms all seem to love the 13's and 16's. If you are going for a 3 kite quiver then that would be the only reason I would suggest the 19.

Yeah, deff a lower wind kite next. This 13 is great, but the winds like this aren't gonna last for too long.
It seems like the 16 is my next destination, the advice Im getting here is that the 19 is sweet, but yeah slow. I think I'd rather work with the 16!


So I guess my current goals are to get some tube patches, and wait to see where everyone recommends getting tubes and eventually wheels for the board. The wind looks like it's gonna be pretty great here this week, so I want to get it back up and running ASAP!

Thanks again for all the advice everyone, and if you know someone with a 16m venom in good condition, please let me know!

Quote: Originally posted by flyguy0101

I prefer to fly my 13m venom or 15m charger2 in the lower wind range and higher- you can really whip it around to generate power in the lower winds and great for park and ride when higher. I would lean towards a 16 venom whole lot faster and more useful wind range for you- in the arc range- i think; not much knowledge on the others but am thinking about LEI in my future.

"QUOTE FROM SPECIAL K"It seems like when applying the general advice I'm getting here, I'll steer away from the 19 for now. I'm pretty interested in the 16 venom or the 15 charger2 just like you. Im curious why you sold your 16 v2 for the charger2. What differences do you notice? If you could do it again, would you make the same moves? Are newer kites 3x+ better to justify the 3x+ price? Just curios/doing my research! "QUOTE"

i bought the 15 charger 2 to replace one of my 13m venoms- based on projected area the 15 charger 2 is about the same size as a 13m venom- differences are easier launch, faster turning, flies in less wind, crazy amount of lift but not as much surface area so landings can be harder without proper redirecting. I got rid of my 16 venom because i would just fly the 13 in lighter winds and the 19 in big float winds
scott

Took apart my wheels tonight. 4+ thorns in most of the tires/tubes.

I'm ordered 4 new tubes and some MR Tuffy Tube liners and will cut them down to size. Quite a bummer. Maybe I should avoid that field in the future, but it's both big and close to me!

Had a few more short sessions! Not enough wind to really have a good time though.. Im starting to really want something bigger..

Currently I'm thinking more about a foil. I'm reading really good things about the HQ Montana... have any of you landboarders out there been out on one? I know I was talking about going LEI before, but realistically it's gonna be a year or two before I can really do that due to life constraints..

I know that I'm going to be land boarding on some pretty rough terrains in some pretty lightish winds.. and I really would like to be able to do some nice jumps too (ive done some small ones on my venom 13.. and I want more..)

I'm thinking the 14m Montana might be the ticket. It looks like the montana 7 got some excellent reviews, but haven't seen much about the 8.. I don't care about flying the newest and greatest but I was curious if anyone has any experience with either the 7 or 8 Montana on a landboard? People say its a pretty good jumping kite, but they always talk about it on the snow... I know it's no speed3/4, but i can't see myself very easily justifying the kinds of prices they demand at this stage in my developing addiction

Did a short fly this morning.. and it was.. not as successful as I hoped!

Winds are pretty heavy today.. 20's gusting into the 30's.. I got the kite up rather easily and kept it flying. Mostly it flew straight overhead and while I could get it to move back and forth, I had troubles getting it to sit back enough into the window to get rolling...

Im not too sure if this is because it was just too windy for the 13 or inexperience or both.. (probably both)...

I also had a few overflies (probably from the gusts?) .. One time it overflew and then started floating back down.. i pulled the safety because it looked like it was going to open up directly downwind in the powerzone.. that would have been a trainwreck... I tried playing with the trim strap to correct this.. Starting with it all the way in (full depower) and then moving it out to half way.. neither seemed to help that much...

I ended up just packing up.. Not worth hurting myself in winds that I can't comfortably work!

So yeah.. I still have a lot to learn!

> Are you saying that you didn't seem to have enough input off of the bar to steer the kite and dip it into the power zone ?

Hmm.. I could get it to move around.. the issue was more that it was more or less constantly pulling me straight up which was a two fold issue.

1) it was a little uncomfortable almost hanging like that the whole time (maybe I should use the seat attachment (have the Chameleon harness)).
2) given that it was flying like that i didn't want to really steer hard and have it dip low and yank me like crazy..

> Were your back lines still too slack ? Sounds like it to me ? In those winds pulling in the bar should have made a noticeable difference ?
It did, though I was fighting it wanting to overfly so I didn't really pull in that much.. I wish i had the guts to try jumping it or really yanking the bar in.. but all in good time!

My technique for dealing with the overfly was to try to turn the kite as it went over my head, and cause it to float back towards zenith, then straighten it out..

> In strong winds you won't have to make very big motions at all + the kite will get into " park and ride " status sooner. In light winds you need to dive the kite harder + pump the kite in a sine wave to gain speed = power.

In the lighter winds (10-15ish mph) the last few times I haven't had a problem getting going or keeping it flying in the park and ride zone.. but this time it was mostly the fact that it wanted to fly straight overhead or start to overfly.. I'm glad I had a lot of practice with light gusty winds before today so that I knew to pull the safety when the thing was going to open up in the middle of the powerzone directly down wind.

> I suspect letting the strap out more would have helped ? If I am correct you can shorten the back lines at the leaders on the bar.

Yeah, I guess I needed to let the strap out more, but I was afraid to do so since that would give the thing more power and given how much pull it was already generating I didn't really want to .. Maybe I should have adjusted the VPC as well? how does that affect its desire to overfly? Or the simplest/most likely explanation is it that the kite is fine and the pilot sucks. :D

> The fact you are comfortable enough to give it a go in those winds + smart enough to back off impresses me !
I have a long history of adrenaline seeking behavior (grew up doing dirt jumping, ramp riding, and street in the summers on my bike back in they day.. And then snowboarding 3x+ a week in the winters.. So I'm not usually afraid to try things, but I've taken enough big crashes to know when I'm over my head (and that goes double now that I have kids and responsibilities getting in the way.. err i mean to consider :D)

>way too much for experience and kite. 30 knots !
20-30 mph = 17-26 knots but I agree it was too much power for me, thats why I packed it up pretty quickly! (Though I guess for badasses like bladerunner it's sweet winds!

>no way on land at your current experience level . even on the water it would be super lit!
It felt more like a repelling rope than a kite! Just sitting there pulling hard straight up most of the time.

>for condition selection that could have been a bad slammer. now you know OVERPOWERED. this situation should be avoided, it won't hurt you , it will cripple you
Yeah I agree it wasn't much fun. I'm only happy with 2 things about it..
1) I was able to successfully launch it and keep it flying
2) I had enough experience to know when to pull the safety.. BEFORE it crippled me!