Power Kite Forum

harness question

ssayre - 26-1-2014 at 08:39 PM

I have a ozone harness with spreader bar on the way and I was planning on using it with a strop line and handles. I will be riding in grass fields mainly. I have seen a lot of threads on using qr's and pulleys and am not sure what the preferred method is or if it is just personal preference. I was thinking that I would not be doing a lot of long runs in fields so it would be of benefit to be able to hook and unhook at will with the standard spreader vs being more captive with pulley and qr. Am I thinking right?

Edit: Sorry, I just remembered I pretty much asked the same question about a month ago.

indigo_wolf - 26-1-2014 at 09:18 PM

Quote: Originally posted by ssayre  
Edit: Sorry, I just remembered I pretty much asked the same question about a month ago.


Did you get your answer a month ago?

I was pondering typing a response, but it was going to be pseudo long (as some of my posts tend to be :embarrased: ) and was trying to figure out if it was going to wait on the morrow.... complete with pictures, graphs, and cat photos. :wow:

ATB,
Sam

ssayre - 26-1-2014 at 09:26 PM

Not fully, I would appreciate your input

indigo_wolf - 26-1-2014 at 11:24 PM

So with the strop you can have a few different setups.

One is the Holt Allen Snatch Block and Wichard Shackle

This is heliboy50's setup



The strop is "captured" in the Snatch Block (upper black piece) and the quick release is provided by the Wichard Snap Shackle (silver bit at the bottom).

Alternatively, you can have the strop running through a standard hammerhead spreader bar:



Or a basic pulley spreader bar:



In either of the latter two cases there's no inherent quick-release involved. Basically you have to overcome the pull of the kite enough the you can maneuver the strop back and down so that it comes free of the hammerhead or pulley.

This may be an issue if you are overpowered or even worse being dragged. As far as one being harder to release from the other... not by huge margins.

Most D-Loops/Control Bar Harnesses have built in quick releases, but they tend to be a bit short and the PU (polyurethane) covering on the dyneema that most of them have may make it a bit stiff for a lot of folks.

Stripping the PU covering off a newly purchased item ruffles the fur a bit too.

The Peter Lynn Kite Leash Pro System w/ Handle-pass System has a PU covered length of dyneema with an 30" max length but is adjustable and has a quick release.

However, that also includes a leash and a $50 price tag.... which is sort of like buying an BMW I8 for the key fob.



In a perfect world, you could buy a strop with a quick release on one end off the shelf, but maybe manufacturers are concerned what that would do to the price point.

More info to follow... tracking down sometime that might be pertinent.

Oh yeah.... kitty photo.


Safety First !!!



ATB,
Sam

ssayre - 27-1-2014 at 06:00 AM

Thanks Sam! I was struggling between standard climbing harness with block and qr set up or a kite harness such as the ozone one I'm getting. I went with the actual kite harness so I could use spreader bars which allow for hooking and unhooking fairly easy (not while powered up). Which do you like to use?

flyguy0101 - 27-1-2014 at 06:10 AM

Sayre- I have found that i really prefer (only use anymore) the captured or QR system like the first one that sam showed. I found when i was just "hooking" the strop under my spreader bar that a lot of times i would inadverently unhook by pulling on the handles too hard. As for the QR/shackle- there is several thoughts about the correct one and I do not like the one pictured above because if the pull cord/ball has rotated on the shackle- it does not matter how strong you are it will not release. The other type is a pin version and while yes it can jam because of sand- i prefer it because as long as i can pull the ball it will release- difference is the amount of enrgy to pull could be harder. So after that ramble i guess i am saying that i think captive is the best way to go.
Scott

rectifier - 27-1-2014 at 07:29 AM

When I hook in I use the first system as well. I use my climbing harness so no spreader bar option.
I use a panic snap instead of the wichard. I feel its a simple and robust release that you just grab and pull the whole sleeve.
I really don't like thinking of the pic of the wichard with the tiny cord getting wrapped in there, that would make me very uneasy about that release as well.

ssayre - 27-1-2014 at 07:50 AM


Quote:

The other type is a pin version


I have a west marine close by that I stopped by the other day and they have the pin version for about $50 and they have the pulleys. I guess I could have saved some money getting a standard climbing harness and these items. I was also planning ahead for depower eventually. I know you can use a climbing harness with a chicken loop but is the standard spreader bar better/easier for depower? I'm not sure, but it looks like it would be easy enough to fit a qr and pulley to the ozone sb harness so I guess I might have the option of trying both if I keep buying stuff.

ssayre - 27-1-2014 at 07:52 AM

Just curious has anyone attached the quick release method to a spreader bar?

flyguy0101 - 27-1-2014 at 08:05 AM

about $50 seems about right for the wichard i have as for clipping it to a standard spreader bar it works but i just got a D spreader bar- i will try to get a pic for you. As for depower and climbing harness- it works and is what i did for a while but a good kiting harness and spreader bar just works a lot better

flyguy0101 - 27-1-2014 at 08:11 AM

pic hopefully this works
[img][/img]

ssayre - 27-1-2014 at 08:16 AM

I didn't even know there was such a thing as a D spreader bar. Good to know, thanks.

flyguy0101 - 27-1-2014 at 08:55 AM

it comes from PL and was relatively inexpensive but it works a lot better than a standard bar since it keeps everything a little closer and when you start adding the shackle and the pulley it starts to matter

BeamerBob - 27-1-2014 at 08:59 AM

I too have a Heliboy setup. On mine, the pull cord is too short to wrap around the system. It just hangs there and if I needed to pull it, I would just grab the ball and pull towards the kite. I have a pin style wichard as well, but don't use it due to reports of it locking up when small sand locks the pin in place. Enough old timers had said it had happened to them, that I took their advice.

When I first started using a strop, I too would unhook for the turns, then hook back in. It was a way for me to gain confidence in myself being attached to the kite. Soon I was confident enough to stay hooked in all the time and went through the various safety methods. I'm happy with the Heliboy setup and haven't considered any changes since getting it together.

bigkid - 27-1-2014 at 09:12 AM

:(

snowspider - 27-1-2014 at 10:38 AM

You're doing good BK , did you have to count all the way to 10 or did the fire snuff out early.

bigkid - 27-1-2014 at 10:40 AM

Quote: Originally posted by snowspider  
You're doing good BK , did you have to count all the way to 10 or did the fire snuff out early.

a bit of both. :D

snowspider - 27-1-2014 at 10:53 AM

:thumbup:

BeamerBob - 27-1-2014 at 11:33 AM

Well, I guess I've considered other options, but most of the downsides of further options have pushed me to fly depower most of the time.

rectifier - 27-1-2014 at 12:14 PM

I wouldn't recommend buying a climbing harness for kiting - the only reason I use mine is, well I already had it for climbing. They are definitely not as comfy and you can't use a spreader bar so the pull is not distributed as well

ssayre - 27-1-2014 at 03:27 PM

I'm just looking forward to a new experience using the harness and it will make it easier to buy a depower at some point since I will already have the expense of a harness out of the way.

@rectifier: Thanks, that makes me feel better about the splurge for a kite harness.

Bladerunner - 27-1-2014 at 04:37 PM

I stick with the hook spreader because I mostly fly depower but switch it up. The fact I have no QR is worrisome and I used to incorporate a small pin style QR on my strops. I have definitely been so powered that pushing out of the hook wasn't easy. Also become unhooked unintentionally on occasion.

Are roller spreaders able to be adapted to hold a Chicken Loop? Where do you stick the chicken finger ?

dirtslide - 27-1-2014 at 05:06 PM

There is a small nylon tab under the roller that acts as the chicken finger ,take a look at the Peter lynn Prodigy and you will see what I mean .I have one but never use it and don't care for it ,so now I only hook in on kites over 5m and only to a hook spreader bar nothing fancy anymore it just seems to complicate things to much. Even talking about a Prodigy spreader should be enough to push Big Kid over the edge, sorry buddy;)

Quick release cheap option

skimtwashington - 27-1-2014 at 05:58 PM

My first kite and kite harness(Parski Flex) incorporated a 'panic snap' on swivel like this. Here's the actual harness


These are very cheap...as little as $6 http://www.huntsmart.com/Brass-Panic-Snap...for brass.....
-Wichards are super expensive by comparison

.. with some creativity, carabiner or such...... and shortening your strop line........ I think it can work as a safety release on other harnesses..?

I have a few of these panic snaps but So far I have not set up such a system for flying my FB as I just have not felt the need...yet.

soliver - 27-1-2014 at 06:41 PM

Jeff, I'm surprised you haven't said more...

I have the Big Kid Kites set up which I bought from Jeff last JIBE. It comes with the spreader bar, QR wichard snap shackle, and pulley (all set up and ready to rock), and even a strap to hook the QR to the bug in case you get lofted, it auto-QR's... I like the whole set up, the only problem I have is in the excessive lulls I have here, It can prove to be more of a hassle from time to time, especially in light wind. I bought a PL bullet spreader bar too so I could try both, and find which will work better, and possibly use both in different scenarios.

Here's a thread where I asked similar questions.
http://www.powerkiteforum.com/viewthread.php?tid=25436#pid24...

ssayre - 27-1-2014 at 08:34 PM

Soliver, that's a good thread and at some point I might get a quick release set up, but I think at this point and from all of the varied input I'm going to keep it as simple as possible with a standard hook and take it easy until I get the feel for it. After all, I've only ridden twice so far and I think a quick toddler could have kept up with me on foot. :lol: also I don't have a large area where I'm going to build a lot of speed. I think beach riding and field riding are pretty different so it depends on who's perspective as to what equipment works best. I like seeing and hearing all of the ideas.

soliver - 28-1-2014 at 11:14 AM

Quote: Originally posted by ssayre  
Soliver, that's a good thread and at some point I might get a quick release set up, but I think at this point and from all of the varied input I'm going to keep it as simple as possible with a standard hook and take it easy until I get the feel for it.


Just remember that the question of hook vs wichard QR is more a matter of safety than a matter of ease of use. If you're thinking more about ease of use, consider something with a pulley over a hook (if you intend to use it with a FB kite with a strop on the handles) either something like a PL challenger or bullet spreader (I don't recommend the prodigy). The problem is with any one of those options (including a hook) if you get lofted by a gust, you have to overcome the pull of that gust to remove the strop from the pulley or hook to get free from the kite. With the captured system (wichard QR, pull, etc) you just yank the QR and your safe.


Quote: Originally posted by ssayre  
I think beach riding and field riding are pretty different so it depends on who's perspective as to what equipment works best. I like seeing and hearing all of the ideas.


The main difference in the beach and the field is the quality of the wind. For me, 95% of riding is in a field near home. The nearest beach is 5 1/2 hours away, but I do get down to Jekyll Island once or twice a year. I can tell you with 100% certainty that beach wind is WAY WAY better and even easier to contend with than at the field. Not to mention that if you are riding on the hard pack at low tide, it's much easier to get moving. On Jekyll, I can often size my kite down due to that. Inland wind (even off shore winds at the beach) have gusts and lulls and it can sometimes be a challenge just to keep the kite in the air. So when you are considering what system to accompany your harness and kite strop, that can play a part.

I am still new to riding with a harness myself, so I'm glad I have both options to pull from. I have had the captured system longer, so I've used it more. I've only flown static with the bullet spreader, so I'm interested to see what I can do with it.

ssayre - 28-1-2014 at 12:22 PM

I know the qr is more about safety than ease of use. I don't plan on hooking in on high wind days or gusty days. I hadn't discovered that thread until you posted it on this one. I read the embedded threads on that post about bigkids accident and the importance of safety. (Bigkid, sorry to hear about your accident and hope you continue to get better) Also, I saw the his auto quick release system and looks to be simple and effective. For now, I like my current system of unhooked and just letting go of the handles. That worked well a couple of times when the kite powered up behind me. I'm mainly wanting to hook in with my 6.6 meter for better control. The brakes can be hard to apply when I'm holding all of the power on my hands and arms. I don't know yet, but in my experience the larger the foil, the longer the reaction time so hopefully I will be able to foresee trouble and unhook. I know this will only work in the mid to low wind range of this kite so that is when I would hook in. It is surprisingly quick and unpredictable in its upper wind range so I would not hook in under those conditions.

Edit: As for beach riding with smooth wind and hardpack sand and miles of beach to ride, that sounds terrible I feel sorry for those guys that don't get to ride bumpy fields or gravel lots with choppy wind.

bigkid - 28-1-2014 at 12:51 PM

Quote: Originally posted by soliver  
Jeff, I'm surprised you haven't said more...

what more can I say? Something along the line of "hey idiot, get a clue. Or even superman isnt all that, or I guess I could just ask if you like hospital food and what kind of flowers would you like on your grave?"
wether its zero wind, or 50mph, .5m to 35m size kite, gusty or steady wind, creeping along or trying for the speed record, buggy or board, this kid will never experiance an OBE again.:smilegrin:
if watching the kite leave me without any notice is any indicator as to the efficiency of my quick release system, then I will gladly tell the world, nah nah nah nah nah.
in english it is translated, it works very well.

soliver - 29-1-2014 at 11:47 AM

Very eloquent Jeff! :lol:

Love ya buddy... Shalom

ssayre - 29-1-2014 at 02:07 PM

Okay, I'm confused now. On one hand soliver said jeff should speak up. Jeff you did speak up and if I heard correctly, your point of view is that there is never situation regardless of kite size or wind speed that you would not use you aqr system. Soliver you said that in some instances with lulls in the wind in your area you were going to try using a spreader bar without qr for less hassle (mentioned on another thread). I'm not sure if you two agree with each other or not. Just trying to figure out who the idiots are :), I'm assuming I'm one of them but it doesn't look like I'm alone. Also, maybe I don't understand Jeff's safety system. Jeff, how would it work on a board, or at that point is your system the same as what a lot of the others mentioned using such as pulley and quick release? I'm not trying to ruffle feathers, just trying to learn as much as I can as there are no shops or people in my area that I can reference.

Also, Jeff, what about depower kites and buggy? Do you hook the line on your system to the one of the quick release on the bar or chicken loop of a depower?

3shot - 29-1-2014 at 02:18 PM

Quote: Originally posted by indigo_wolf  
So with the strop you can have a few different setups.

One is the Holt Allen Snatch Block and Wichard Shackle

This is heliboy50's setup



The strop is "captured" in the Snatch Block (upper black piece) and the quick release is provided by the Wichard Snap Shackle (silver bit at the bottom).

ATB,
Sam


Is this what heliboy50 was using when he had his accident last year? Or a different setup? I remember him being lofted when he was injured. Didn't know if the events just happened too fast to activate the release. Not trying to thread drift here. Just curious. I "may" also be in the market for a harness, and want to be as educated as possible too. I really like Jeff's AQR concept, and the one in skim's vid.

bigkid - 29-1-2014 at 03:35 PM

the picture with the quick release shackle and the green ball is a basic setup that you have to deploy. And just to make things clearer there is an up and down on that Wichard. If you pull in a certain direction it will not open. As for my quick release system, all I can say is I will never be pulled out of my buggy again. If I am hooked in, I use my quick release system. If I am NOT hooked in, I am flying just with the handles in my hands.as far as the system that Josh had when he was hurt it wasn't until he was pulled out of the buggy slammed on the playa hurt and then was able to twist around and finally pulled the green ball. Not to say his system is good or bad or what he did was wrong or correct, that's for each individual to decide on. In my world an idiot is someone who continues to do the same sayings expecting a different outcome. It also means that someone who does not want to listen and knows better but does it anyway.there are many variations to my system and there's nothing wrong with that that's not my system and its not set up the way I would but that's just me. Anyone can do anything anyhow for whatever reason. I choose to not go back to the hospital, I choose not to waste away two years of my life, when I choose to enjoy the holidays and birthdays and everything else I missed for those two years. And come to think of it forevermore things will never be the same, so if I didn't use my quicky system I would be the idiot. My wife says if the shoe fits wear it well if the dunce hat will fit then I guess that's what I am.
I understand where people are and what they want to do and how they want to go about it, I was no different than they were the only thing is I got caught, I got pulled out of my buggy and slammed to the earth. Others have somewhat of the same situation, and have miraculously walked away from it. I wasn't so fortunate. As for using my quick release on a board yes it will work, takes a little bit of Engineering but it does work. As for the depower, I haven't got to that point because the design of the quick release for the depower doesn't warrant automatic quick release.

3shot - 29-1-2014 at 03:42 PM

:thumbup: Thank you Jeff!!

Hooked in= AQR
Not hooked in = handle flying

My thoughts exactly :cool:

ssayre - 29-1-2014 at 03:48 PM

Thanks for filling in the blanks for me Jeff. Coincidentally, my harness came in the mail today and I left work a little early and took it for a quick spin with a 4 meter (just static). I'll have to say it was a little unnerving to say the least to be hooked in and knowing that I wouldn't be able to just let go. I had so much fun in the buggy without a harness that I'm not sure it's worth it to me to harness at all. I might just save it for a depower kite in the future. From what everyone says about depower and how well they handle gusts, it might be worth a try for me at some point.

soliver - 29-1-2014 at 05:24 PM

Sorry for the confusion ssayre, I just meant I was suprised Jeff had not said more because I know he has very strong feelings on the whole harness and spreader bar issue (and for very good reason). I'm just in the place where I have used what I have and am interested in trying something else primarily because of the conditions I fly in. What little I have tried it (the bullet spreader), I'm really not sure if I do like it, but that's yet to be determined.

And I agree it is unnerving as you said. I'm still getting used to it myself.

Demoknight - 30-1-2014 at 08:40 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Bladerunner  
I stick with the hook spreader because I mostly fly depower but switch it up. The fact I have no QR is worrisome and I used to incorporate a small pin style QR on my strops. I have definitely been so powered that pushing out of the hook wasn't easy. Also become unhooked unintentionally on occasion.

Are roller spreaders able to be adapted to hold a Chicken Loop? Where do you stick the chicken finger ?


I have flown a depower on my pulley spreader. No place for the donkey dick. It pops out easily. If you are a stainless welder I can see adapting one to work, but otherwise I advise against it and just swap your spreaders out when you swap kites. It just adds 2 minutes to the switch. Worth the trouble of having two spreaders imo.