Power Kite Forum - Difference between different Kite lines?

Difference between different Kite lines?

Chrisz - 29-12-2013 at 10:02 AM

Can anyone tell me the difference between the different kite line brands. I know this will be very opinionated but not sure how else to learn.

-What is good what is bad?
-What lines stretch too much?
-What lines are too heavy?
-What lines resist abrasions?
-What lines are best for snowkiting?

What I am familiar with is the Dyneema lines that came with my Apex 4 that I like but don't have much to compare them to.

I recently cut a line and purchased a new line set and did not get what I expected. Not sure what kind of line I got, it is not coated and seems to be 1/2 the thickness of the original lines I had. If I can figure out how to add a picture maybe you could tell me what I have.

I am looking to replace the replcement lines I ordered but dont know what I should look for in a line set. I know I dont like my replacement lines I was sent, they twist and kink easy.

bigkid - 29-12-2013 at 10:54 AM

Wondered when someone was going to ask this question? So much to say and so little time to tell it in.:D

riffclown - 29-12-2013 at 11:23 AM

-What is good what is bad? I'm fond of Shanti Skybond, Shanti Warp Speed, Laser Pro, Vector and Q-Powerline. The stock lines from the major manufacturers are also very good IMO. Flying line is really one of those times that you get what you pay for. Avoid re-purposed fishing line. Way too much stretch,
-What lines stretch too much? Mostly the cheap or discount stuff. Resist the urge to use fishing line.. It's just not worth the effort.
-What lines are too heavy? 550 paracord.
-What lines resist abrasions? Q-Powerlines are sleeved for the entire length of the line. Skybond is slipperier those many other lines and holds up pretty well. Any line can be cut when it's under load.
-What lines are best for snowkiting? This one is way outside my expertise but I'd probably choose Q-Powerline given the option

indigo_wolf - 29-12-2013 at 01:03 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Chrisz

Can anyone tell me the difference between the different kite line brands. I know this will be very opinionated but not sure how else to learn.

-What is good what is bad?
-What lines stretch too much?
-What lines are too heavy?
-What lines resist abrasions?
-What lines are best for snowkiting?

What I am familiar with is the Dyneema lines that came with my Apex 4 that I like but don't have much to compare them to.

I recently cut a line and purchased a new line set and did not get what I expected. Not sure what kind of line I got, it is not coated and seems to be 1/2 the thickness of the original lines I had. If I can figure out how to add a picture maybe you could tell me what I have.

I am looking to replace the replcement lines I ordered but dont know what I should look for in a line set. I know I dont like my replacement lines I was sent, they twist and kink easy.

Dyneema is not a brand of kite line.... Dyneema is a brand of the polyethylene the lines are made of.

What is good what is bad?Lines that haven't been pre-stretched are bad (see below). Lines with knotted rather than stitched aren't necessarily bad, but are less preferred (more drag, more snag prone). Lines made of questionable materials are bad. Staying away from generic, nameless lines (eBay) is generally a good way to avoid most of these pitfalls.
What lines stretch too much? All lines stretch. Quality lines have been pre-stretched before they are cut to a given length and sleeved. Eventually after a lot of flying some stretch/creep might be experienced, but pre-stretching at the factory does a lot to minimize this.
What lines are too heavy? Line weight is a balance between preventing breakage from the power a kite canopy generates in flight, the force needed to overcome the weight/drag of the lines to enable stable flight in the wind range the kite is rated for, and price. The stock lines that came with the kite are generally a good balance of these goals and you should probably stick close to those line weights unless you have a really good reason not to. A good example of this can be found in the Flexifoil Sting/Rage/Blurr line up. The stock lines are generally fine, but you have the option of upgrading to their Extreme Lines. They are heavier and more expensive, but are designed for higher winds where the additional line weight/drag is less of a concern.
What lines resist abrasions?The weaves and coatings used by the different manufacturers vary, but generally tend to be proprietary. You won't find too many side by side spec'ed comparisons. Whatever you find out there will generally tend to be subjective based on the reviewers' experience and local conditions. Abrasion characteristics will vary because of this, but among quality name brand linesets, you probably won't see a whole lot of variance outside of personal preference.

QPowerline is a bit different. It comes in 3 tiers. Q-Line, QPowerline, and QPowerline Pro. QLine is their basic line and is underrated for strength by 15% for a bit more of a safety margin. QPowerline is uses a cored construction and even though it might seem thicker than standard Dyneema line, it's construction generates less parasitic drag. QPowerline Pro uses a higher grade, but thinner core material and users a slipperier surface treatment to increase abrasion resistance.
What lines are best for snowkiting? Most manufacturers lines are suitable for snow kiting. You might want to give some preference to lines that are available in high visiability colors (Ozone comes in orange, QPowerline comes in orange and yellow. Climax Combat comes in high-vis orange).

Other than that, the only lines that claim any special features for snowkiting are Climax Combat lines which claim to be frost-resistant to -36° celsius (-32.8° farenheit). However, the provide no details or explanation of this on their website.

You might find this thread of interest:
Dyneema Vs. Spectra

ATB,
Sam

Chrisz - 29-12-2013 at 02:31 PM

Wow, Indigo_wolf that is the most through explanation I have ever received, thank you very much!

I figured out what I received when I purchased the replacement lines for my kite, HQ Dyneema uncoated lines I paid a whopping $150.00 for those lines. I thought I was getting the coated lines for that price, I think I got taken to the cleaners!

The part number on the bag is 120410 no HQ markings packaged in a unmarked bag, my best guess is these came off E-bay and where sent to me by the kite dealer, the dealer making a quick buck! I have found that same line set between $98.00 to $113.00, the coated lines run for about $150.00 with the HQ/Dyneema logo on the bags.

The QPower line brand looks interesting I may look into this brand.

I have noticed the ends of some lines are are sewn and some are, I believe the term is sleeved, are there pros and cons to this type of end termination?

Chrisz - 29-12-2013 at 02:40 PM

Here is a link to a product that is simmilar to what I had before I cut my line with my ski, it is a little over kill. I am having a hard time finding a direct replacement.

http://xtremebigair.com/PKS-High-Visibility-Pro-Line-Set-25M-27M-P1037.aspx

Anyone know what kind of line these are?

Chrisz - 29-12-2013 at 06:56 PM

What kind of lines these are? They came on my apex 5.5

indigo_wolf - 29-12-2013 at 07:36 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Chrisz

I figured out what I received when I purchased the replacement lines for my kite, HQ Dyneema uncoated lines I paid a whopping $150.00 for those lines. I thought I was getting the coated lines for that price, I think I got taken to the cleaners!

The part number on the bag is 120410 no HQ markings packaged in a unmarked bag, my best guess is these came off E-bay and where sent to me by the kite dealer, the dealer making a quick buck! I have found that same line set between $98.00 to $113.00, the coated lines run for about $150.00 with the HQ/Dyneema logo on the bags.

Not really sure what you got, all the lines I have bought that weren't included with a kite (Flexifoil, Ozone, HQ, etc) came wrapped on a winder, in a plastic bag and closed at the top with a folded cardboard tab. This is how I am used to receiving linesets unless they are cusom ones that have been made for me by one of the retailers or I am buying bulk line to make my own linesets.

Any authorized HQ dealer should be able to get you real HQ replacement lines/linesets that will match the originals.

Quote: Originally posted by Chrisz

The QPower line brand looks interesting I may look into this brand.

QPowerline is stiffer, but slick. Most of the retailers that sell it can make you up a custom set. Kent at AWindOfChange made me up a short set that I use for flying FBs at festivals where air space is at a premium. Since he sent it to me in a Tyvek envelope, the shipping was very cheap.

Quote: Originally posted by Chrisz

I have noticed the ends of some lines are are sewn and some are, I believe the term is sleeved, are there pros and cons to this type of end termination?

With the exception of QPowerline which doesn't require sleeving because of it's cored construction, most complete linesets will be sleeved. The sleeving can be stitched to prevent the line from separating from the sleeves or knotted.

Stitched sleeves are more streamlined and less prone to snagging on things. Knotted sleeves are easier to undo if you need to make adjustments to equalize the length of your lines.

It not impossible to equalize lines in the former case, just a little bit extra work if you want them re-stitched after the equalization process.

There a tutorial on how to (re)stitch the sleeves on flying lines here:
http://www.instructables.com/id/Sew-a-loop-end-on-a-line/

ATB,
Sam

rectifier - 29-12-2013 at 10:18 PM

I'm going to stir the pot here about fishing line.
I just picked up some Jerry Brown 500# Spectra as recommended on another thread to try out as a lineset. (High end fishing line.)

Now kiting is a growing but still small market - and small markets tend to have to repurpose things made for large markets. Our kite manufacturers are great at making awesome kites, for sure. But are they out there developing or commissioning new exotic materials? Highly unlikely.

Q-power has developed their own kite-specific product and carved out a niche as the high-end kite line. They are also not busy developing and marketing kites - they are a kite line company. However, I would put forward that most manufacturers' lines are functionally no different from those developed for a much larger market, that of deep-sea fishing. Anyone who knows differently, please prove me wrong!

Now I'm not saying there isn't value in buying premanufactured lines. Lines from a kite manufacturer will be pre-stretched under controlled conditions, spliced and sleeved, and exactly the same length. Most people couldn't be bothered to do this themselves, and many are not capable of doing the job as well as those who specialize in it. This in my opinion is the reason to buy a lineset, not because the line itself is anything special.

Here is Jerry Brown 500# next to a stock HQ lineset. Line is hard to take pics of... but can you tell which is which?
I even opened up the braid a little like I was going to splice it...
http://tinypic.com/r/2rco4e1/5

Of course looks aren't everything, but as all Spectra fiber is originally manufactured by Honeywell...

Chrisz - 30-12-2013 at 08:21 AM

I dont think I am talented enough to sew, is there a place I can ship all 4 of my lines to to cut them all to the same length sleeve them and have them sown?

Chrisz - 30-12-2013 at 11:14 AM

I dont think I am talented enough to sew, is there a place I can ship all 4 of my lines to to cut them all to the same length sleeve them and have them sown?

bigkid - 30-12-2013 at 11:56 AM

If you are going to fly kites, now is a great time to learn about how to sleeve the end of your lines, buy a resleeve kit and do it yourself, they don't need to be sown. A line that is sewn at the end is not adjustable, but a line set that is sleeved with knots is adjustable. And at some point you will break your line and need to fix it and this is a good time to learn and possibly save yourself some money, time, and frustration. Nothing worse than being out to play and break a line and have to call it a day because you don't have the ability to fix the end of one of your lines it was broken. Just a thought.

rectifier - 30-12-2013 at 12:37 PM

If you need the new lines worked on, I would send them back! They should be ready to fly.
If you're talking about your cut lines, I agree with bigkid, now is a great time to learn.

If you don't feel confident working on your lineset, buy some Amsteel, hollow braid fishing line or other hollow braid at a yachting or fishing shop. Get a piece of wire that will fit inside as a fid. You can learn to splice on that pretty fast and then transfer the skill to your kite lines.

All you need to do to fix that cut lineset is make 4 splices the same length. No sleeving, sewing or stretching required!

Chrisz - 30-12-2013 at 05:13 PM

So do I sleeve the one line and make a line extensions or do I cut all of them and re-sleeve them all to make them the same length?

indigo_wolf - 30-12-2013 at 08:25 PM

Quote: Originally posted by bigkid

Nothing worse than being out to play and break a line and have to call it a day because you don't have the ability to fix the end of one of your lines it was broken. Just a thought.

Scr3w that.... that's why we carry spare line sets. Wind up the broken set to fix at home where the cat can help you.

Reattach new lines and get back in the air.

Cats are awesome with stringy stuff.

FWIW: There is nothing like trying to resleeve 50# micro line (indoor kites) while cats are helping.... wait for it... true story.

ATB,
Sam

indigo_wolf - 30-12-2013 at 08:28 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Chrisz

So do I sleeve the one line and make a line extensions or do I cut all of them and re-sleeve them all to make them the same length?

Totally depends on where the break is.

If it's right at the sleeving, I would shorten all four lines.

If you are going to loose significant length, I would replace the single broken line with one of the same original length and leave the other 3 lines untouched.

Some of that is purely personal discretion though.

ATB,
Sam

rectifier - 30-12-2013 at 10:48 PM

My suggested repair was (if the break is not very close to one of the ends) to cut and splice all 4 lines.

The cut line is no shorter than the rest, and didn't snap or unravel (I assume) - it is just cut into 2 pieces by your ski. When you splice it with an end-to-end splice like the one I linked to in the splicing thread, it gets shorter by the length of the splice.
To compensate, you can cut the other 3 lines and make an identical splice on all of them. This will only result in your lines getting about 2 feet shorter. It's also a lot less work than cutting, sleeving and stitching all of the lines, probably 15 minutes of work for a total beginner.

A properly performed splice will retain 100% of the line strength so don't worry about that. And if you practice on some readily available line even a little, you will make a proper splice no problem!

When I am working on bridles and such it's my DOG that plows through the middle of everything at high speed! She can't see the fine lines, I think. What a mess...

awindofchange - 30-12-2013 at 11:03 PM

As far as fishing line compared to kite line - and saying they are the same and kite line is just more because of a niche market....that can not be further from the truth.

Saying fishing line is the same as kite line because they are both made from HDMPE fibers (spectra/dyneema) is like saying a $10 bicycle tire is just as good as a $300 steel belted racing radial tire because heck, they are both made from rubber!

Even though fishing line and kite line are both made from spectra fibers, that is the only thing that is the same. Spectra fibers are the size of a hair and are carefully braided and re-braided to form kite lines. The way they are braided, the pattern in which they are braided, how tight they are braided and the shape they are braided in will determine if it is good enough quality for kite flying (where your life and $100's of dollars worth of kite depend on it) and whether it can be used to haul in a fish.

Braiding kite line takes as much as 100 times more time and up to 30% more line than making fishing line - which is basically designed to be thrown away in the event it breaks or gets tangled. Breakage and stretch in fishing line is expected and assumed. This obviously can not be tolerated with kites. Daniel Prentice of Shanti kites is a very close friend of mine and I have seen what it takes to make both fishing line and kite line and they are no way comparable. Daniel also is the inventor of Spectra kite line.

Fishing line, while it may work for your kite for a while, will not hold up nearly as long, will be more prone to breakage and wear and will never have the performance and durability that kite line has. Kite line is designed to rub against each other with minimal wear, this is because of the special way the braid is made so that the two (or four) lines can slide over each other. Fishing line will create a lot of friction when crossed with other fishing line and will literally melt itself in half, causing breakage.

Food for thought anyways......Hope this helps.

Chrisz - 31-12-2013 at 08:12 AM

The cut is right at the sleaving at the end, I think I will cut all 4 and make them all the same length. The cut is in the picture above I will only loose a couple of inches.

flyhighWNY - 31-12-2013 at 05:00 PM

LOL just a few inches!! Just so happens I ran into an old neighbor who couldn't agree more... That Neighbor..... John Wayne Bobbit..

rectifier - 31-12-2013 at 10:52 PM

Yeah, cut and re sleeve them then.

awindofchange, that's the kind of discussion I was hoping to stir up with my post! It's really interesting to hear that they design and braid their own line at Shanti, and it looks like their line is specialized for the sport kite market - that demands very high abrasion resistance and the ability to fly with many, many twists in the line. I don't doubt that such a line is superior to fishing line for sport flying.

The tire comparison is a bit unfair, you should actually compare a Goodyear tire with another Goodyear tire, as all Spectra fiber comes from the same Honeywell factories. It's the fiber selection, braiding and dressing that makes the difference, and I agree that it can make a huge difference. Of course there are other brands of HMPE fiber out there and I can make no claims to their quality (bike tire).

By the way, I never meant to imply that kite line costs more due to the market size - just that the original technology likely has trickled down from the larger markets. Fishing is a huge market driver and fishermen buy happily into the latest and greatest, allowing the development of truly new materials. For example, check out Berkley's new Nanofil line. With a bundle of Dyneema nanofilaments bonded into a single unsleeved fiber, I can't wait to see this in higher poundages! It should have truly zero stretch and never, ever fray. Of course this means catastrophic and unexpected failure when it does go :D

With respect to the qualities of the line, I do a lot of fishing and know some who are rabid fishermen - to these guys it's not "just a fish" on the end of the line. A 500lb tuna is worth more than the average kite in meat alone, let alone its value as a trophy. These guys spend more on their boats than a lifetime supply of kiting gear is worth. A line that loses fish isn't very popular, and the blue water guys are mad about strength, diameter, low stretch, and low friction over rod guides and on and off the reel - basically everything we are concerned with on our power kite lines. There are websites and forums devoted to testing breaking strengths, knot strengths etc... I'm sure there are bad fishing lines out there, but you can also get bad kite lines! I would bet any of the big branded HMPE fishing lines are quite a bit better than what you get on a Chinese power kite.

So JB claims 3% stretch in their fishing line, Tuf-line does too and Shanti claims a similar figure in their kite line, Q-power claims "near zero" as their fibers are linear and not braided. I'll be honest, the reason I like messing with fishing line is mostly because I like to build things "from scratch" and I like experimenting with different materials. Basically I build all sorts of things for fun and pushing the envelope is what I consider fun.
I found that Tuf-line 100# is true to their claim on stretch - the kites I've bridled with it have seen a lot of flying, crashing and massive gusts and have not changed their tuning whatsoever. I've flown my 2.6m kite with almost 10 twists in a Tuf-line lineset and didn't experience significant loss of control other than from the bridle drawing together - it is very thin and slippery! Did that result in significant wear to the lines? Yeah, probably. I did later break a power line in gusty winds that shouldn't have been flown with 100# lines, or at all really.

I'm not by any means saying kiters should switch to fishing line. Just trying to bust the "fishing line stretches" myth and defend fishing line's place in the home builder's toolbox. Monofilament stretches, older braided lines stretch - modern "superline" braids do not! Fishermen don't like stretch, I won't even hand bob for perch with stretchy line!

rectifier - 1-1-2014 at 12:04 PM

For those keeping score, I just pre-stretched 200m of JB 500# to 250lbs. For interest I measured from first tension to 250lb fuse break. It stretched almost exactly 6m - that's the claimed 3%.

The energy released in the snap was pretty high, breaking the knot at the other end (3 turn scaffold knot, supposedly 90% in HMPE - not trustworthy I guess) and shaking out 2 scaffold knots at the end of the fuse line (I was originally going to use this piece of line for the safety line, changed my mind and used a sling instead). Picked it up and was like "where did those knots go?"

My question for anyone else making linesets - the line barely sprang back at all. It is still nearly 6m longer. Does that make the measured elongation technically "creep"? Or does this measurement mean nothing as it is just pulling out slack in the braid.
I will have to ask my friends who make tow cables etc. from spectra whether the 3% is supposed to be dynamic stretch.
They have a load cell based tester they use to qualify slings and chain - might be fun to splice up and break some lines on it.

B-Roc - 1-1-2014 at 02:41 PM

The lines aren't wound on the spools under high tension so the 6m (is that right - nearly 18 feet??) you picked up is likely just a matter of eliminating all slack and pulling the line tight. From that point, my guess is you will see very little stretch but some creep but it sounds like you really stressed the line so it is likely as stretched as it can be.

What I think happens to fly lines is that they are stretched like you mention and then they shrink as they sit in storage or on a winder and then they are stretched again when flown but now the powers take more strain so they appear "stretched" when they are actually somewhat normalized and the brakes have shrunk or simply not normalized as much.

I do think lines stretch but a lot of what we see, I think, is the difference in lines normalizing that weren't either properly preloaded or don't carry the same constant load while in use.