Power Kite Forum

Flysurfer Peak - single-skin depower

Kamikuza - 18-10-2013 at 04:52 AM

https://vimeo.com/77198501

Looks like it's got potential! Wonder what it costs...

Bladerunner - 18-10-2013 at 06:39 AM

interesting !

The video doesn't show much in the way of float ?

I think I see great low wind and buggy potential ? I wonder how it is for speed ?

erratic winds - 18-10-2013 at 07:01 AM

I think this in a big size could be a wonderful low-wing wing, since it's so light, but In my personal opinion, this is a bit of FlySurfer expanding kite-line too much and will contract and remove a kite from their lineup, just like Ozone did. if this wing performs well, I would expect it to replace the outlaw in FS's product line.

A very interesting concept, I just will have to wait to learn about performance! Excited as always to see another land-specific kite.

flyjump - 18-10-2013 at 07:08 AM

I also wonder if it will be cheaper since its less material. it's like flysurfer is building on the idea of NASA wings

Demoknight - 18-10-2013 at 07:11 AM

I have to say, I really like it. I also love that the pack turns into a harness. It is a bit gimmicky, but if you are only cruising I don't see the harm in that. I wonder if the reduction in material means it will have a slightly less "Fly$urfer" price...

PHREERIDER - 18-10-2013 at 07:21 AM

HOLY CRAP! getting one these no doubt! what sizes?

Snake - 18-10-2013 at 08:47 AM

Very nice, I wonder how large the window is? Single skins tend to be slower and have a smaller window from the constant curve though out the wing. That could be the reason for the rather pathetic jumps, for a flysurfer.

I also find the angled bridle attachments by the LE interesting. They could be used to slow down the air around under the wing, creating more power like the rata jet on 2e5.com. They also appear to reduce the amount of bridles.

B-Roc - 18-10-2013 at 09:12 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Demoknight  
I wonder if the reduction in material means it will have a slightly less "Fly$urfer" price...


Being a FS, somehow I kind of doubt it.

I'd like to see how it handles gusty, turbulent, inland conditions. My guess is not so well but it would be interesting to see more clips of how easy it is to correct a collapsed canopy without it balling all up.

Probably a good light wind kite. Not sure if the market really needed this but if its significantly cheaper than a speed maybe they have found a niche.

Bladerunner - 18-10-2013 at 05:23 PM

I am waiting until next year when it comes out in Deluxe material . ;) :P

Sier_Pinski - 18-10-2013 at 05:54 PM

Quote: Originally posted by erratic winds  
...this is a bit of FlySurfer expanding kite-line too much and will contract and remove a kite from their lineup, just like Ozone did. if this wing performs well, I would expect it to replace the outlaw in FS's product line.


I'm curious about what Ozone did. I sure hope FS doesn't use this new kite to replace the Outlaw if it ends up being more expensive than their previous land kite. I was thinking of getting an Outlaw because it was cheaper than a Frenzy and had more features.

With that in mind, I still like the concept and would like to see how this competes with the NASA-Wings. A thing this tried kite industry needs is more innovation.

A couple more screenshots from their news page. And yes, that is A LOT of bridles.







Kamikuza - 18-10-2013 at 06:21 PM

Unity is gone from the homepage, apparently...

B-Roc - 18-10-2013 at 06:31 PM

Though there is no bottom sail, given the number of ribs and the complexity of the bridle, my guess is this kite will cost at least as much as similarly sized Pulse or Outlaw. Doubt you'll be seeing any cost savings with this one. All the ribs/attachments make it kind of ugly to look at IMO.

shaggs2riches - 18-10-2013 at 07:22 PM

Looks like flysurfer really dumped some money into the old R&D department this past year. Gotta give them credit for venturing into new territory. Would really like to give this one a test ride. One thing I wonder is how the single canopy would act in flight should you unknownly tear it on something.

Sier_Pinski - 18-10-2013 at 07:57 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Kamikuza  
Unity is gone from the homepage, apparently...


Just checked and realized that the FS Psycho4 is gone as well; replaced by the Cronix. That limits their number of water-relaunchable kitesurfing foils to just 1 (excluding the Viron trainer kite).

Why can't FS simply keep their two kites they just discontinued and expand their lineup from 5 to 7 kites?

Flyfish - 18-10-2013 at 08:06 PM

Psycho 5 is coming. It'll be a combination of Unity and Pshyco 4. Read an interview with Armin.

macboy - 20-10-2013 at 10:32 AM

There must be some sort of internal structure on the LE of that thing to hold that shape?

B-Roc - 20-10-2013 at 11:31 AM

Quote: Originally posted by macboy  
There must be some sort of internal structure on the LE of that thing to hold that shape?


Don't think so. Watch it crash in the video and you'll see it just collapses. That front leading edge is made by the wind / air pressure and the ribbing / bridle. It appears to be totally soft.

soliver - 20-10-2013 at 05:52 PM

I think this looks really interesting... Can't wait to see more.... When you get one phree, tell us what you think!!!!

Proletariat - 20-10-2013 at 06:24 PM

Totally stolen from NPW tech. The leading edge is nearly a 1:1 copy, from the designs I've investigated. Need John to pipe up here, but is this just a giant, really expensive depower NPW? Second question... If I buy one will you stop pestering me about NPWs? :). Third question... Is the depower really depower? That curve and all those bridles seem like they would be pretty rigid.

Proletariat - 20-10-2013 at 06:37 PM

€750 or €850, for the 6m, and 9m respectively. Another €90 for the harg (or barness). How much was that NASA Star again? I'm guessing the depower on these things suck (or is binary, like an NPW.)

B-Roc - 20-10-2013 at 07:22 PM

Why not just bring back the C-Quad or buy a paraski flex if you like single skin technology. Both are cheaper and probably perform at least as well and if you don't pound them into the ground you don't break rods and you know they will hold their form.

John Holgate - 20-10-2013 at 11:10 PM


Quote:

Need John to pipe up here, but is this just a giant, really expensive depower NPW? Second question... If I buy one will you stop pestering me about NPWs?


Expensive? - Yes. Giant NPW? - I wouldn't have thought so.

Will I stop pestering you about Nasa Stars? - not a chance!

And as for how much for the NS2's - How about 911 Euros for ALL of them including a bar and line set? (that's 1.5m 2.5m, 4m, 5.5m and 7m) Which either makes the flysurfer look really expensive or the NS2's really good value.

Joel over on Extremekites said he'd do a write up on the Peak shortly - when he does, I'll post a link.



Sier_Pinski - 21-10-2013 at 08:45 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Proletariat  
€750 or €850, for the 6m, and 9m respectively. Another €90 for the harg (or barness). How much was that NASA Star again? I'm guessing the depower on these things suck (or is binary, like an NPW.)


For us Americans, that's $1025 for the 6 meter and $1160 for the 9 meter.

About the same price as the Outlaw on this site.

B-Roc - 21-10-2013 at 05:17 PM

The outlaw is one kite I wish they continued to innovate such as they did with the the speed, etc.

Bladerunner - 21-10-2013 at 05:24 PM

Quote: Originally posted by macboy  
There must be some sort of internal structure on the LE of that thing to hold that shape?


I wonder if they aren't using the stiff little rods that they have put in the leading edge of their newest closed cells ? Scudley's new Sky Country kite also has these on the leading edge.

Kamikuza - 21-10-2013 at 06:45 PM

^ they are.

sendit - 21-10-2013 at 06:50 PM

http://www.peterlynnhimself.com/newsletter/Oct_Nl_13.html

bigE123 - 22-10-2013 at 04:34 AM

I'm sure any single skin kite will have it's roots based on a NPW...... I'm sure I've seen something similar ;-)

loftywinds - 22-10-2013 at 06:01 AM

Hmmm. Am I missing the obvious here but isn't the FS Peak nothing more than an Outlaw without the first layer? The "folder over" of the leading edge is suss, and does not truly reflect what a single-skin kite should look like. I bet a NASA at 1/3 of the price can pull just as much if not more, and there is already depower models out. It will be interesting to see how this hits into the market.

Needs to find a niche?

skimtwashington - 22-10-2013 at 06:33 AM

I think in turbulent winds it will likely behave less than a depower double skin, but better than a FB double skin...:puzzled:

The light packable feature might be desired by folks who want to mix ski descent/ touring and ski kiting but need a small package the can tuck away. With this in mind the all in one pack/harness should have a larger capacity pack(compressible to smaller size) to take a full winters days of gear. Otherwise in some case the pack is not needed ...ditch the FS pack/harness and use a bigger backpack and a substitute harness..... pack with the kite and winter gear.

Unlike most NPWs( which is the lightest most packable kite for such an adventure)... this kite- if it drops upside down /leading edge into the powder-may scoop snow in deep powder with that leading edge design and make it at times un-reverse launchable . You will have to stake it and go down to kite.

With an NPW snow slides off right side or upside down. Relaunch is easy in extremes of snow. An upside down foil will empty also (any cell flying in heavy falling snow will need to downturn and empty filling cells in the sky in such a situation.

Innovative? Overpriced? Great performer?

Definitely one of the most talked about new kites, It seems?

Flyfish - 22-10-2013 at 07:27 AM

I'm not a rocket scientist, but I bet that leading edge provides way better lift to drag and depower ability.
Personally I'm stoked to see flysurfer developing this and Mr Peter Lynn.

flyguy0101 - 22-10-2013 at 11:09 AM

maybe i am a little slow but why does everyone say it must come from the nasawing design? aren't All LEIs single skin and we know they depower better than a lot of foils and i dont think they came form the nasa wing design. I personally do not like the nasa wings but look forward to seeing the flysurfer or Mr PL's version - i think it must be a much better design just my 2 cents

bigE123 - 22-10-2013 at 11:54 AM

All single skin kites are benched marked against the nasawing, why? Because they set the bar, if you can't better the design then you need to go back to the drawing board ;-)

zero gee - 22-10-2013 at 01:34 PM

I thought the C-Quad was the gold standard for single skins.

macboy - 22-10-2013 at 11:33 PM

I'm sure the physics correlate real close to that of an LEI - the big leading edge creating a vacuum (so to speak) under the wing surface would really crank up the power generated by these things once in motion. I had an RC plane like that - can't recall what it was called....negative camber? Don't remember. Hell, it's even akin to a mast and sail on a sailboat. The big LE creating ultra low pressure on the inside surface. Makes me wonder what took so long :lol:

Purely Luck - 23-10-2013 at 09:32 AM

" The big LE creating ultra low pressure on the inside surface."

The low pressure (vacuum) is created on the top of the wing. That is why it pulls you when it flys.

See http://youtu.be/5ltjFEei3AI?t=1m50s

Prussik - 23-10-2013 at 11:40 AM

It is not Bernoulli but AOA (i.e. Newton) who is responsible for most of the lift of a wing.

PistolPete - 23-10-2013 at 12:08 PM

LE of the kite shape is similar to a cylinder and the attached smooth upper wing surface behind it reduces flow separation to allow efficient lift. Suspect low/kite speed flow separation is not that big of an issue for the non-smooth lower surface behind the LE?




MeatŠriver - 23-10-2013 at 04:22 PM

Just found a small set of pics on Flickr with a few closeups. IMO, i think all those exposed jagged ribs hanging out look pretty sick.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/dontwannaphoto/sets/72157636097...

shaggs2riches - 23-10-2013 at 10:05 PM

I somehow think that this will change a lot of people's current opinions once it's released. Flysurfer really must have done a ton of testing and money to be so confident in releasing this design. It can really be said that all foils are designed around the same basic foil design, and all lei are designed around a same basic lei design. They have taken a basic model and shaped it to their own style and liking. Why can't it be no different with single skin kites? Didn't ozone create a single skin glider not too long ago? Either way this type of engineering is moving into a positive direction breaking out of the current norm. Sure hope it doesn't flop, and leave them dumping the R&D on these things cause this could only be the beginning.

MeatŠriver - 24-10-2013 at 06:05 AM

Best hands on info that I've seen so far. You'll have to bust out Google translator or what have you. I think it somewhat disappointing that they found the depower to be so on/off. http://www.drachenforum.net/forum/Flysurfer-Peak-Sammelthrea...

bobalooie57 - 26-10-2013 at 10:55 AM

Quote: Originally posted by sendit  
http://www.peterlynnhimself.com/newsletter/Oct_Nl_13.html


I found this pretty interesting, so I ordered the 4M! I will post a review when I get it and fly it.

IMK - 26-10-2013 at 12:46 PM

Quote: Originally posted by bobalooie57  
Quote: Originally posted by sendit  
http://www.peterlynnhimself.com/newsletter/Oct_Nl_13.html


I found this pretty interesting, so I ordered the 4M! I will post a review when I get it and fly it.


They look interesting. Where did you order the 4m from?

shaggs2riches - 27-10-2013 at 01:41 AM

www.vimeo.com/m/77766688

This looks interesting. Curious how it works that a 9m is suppose to be the equivelant of a 14m. Looking cool though.

erratic winds - 27-10-2013 at 06:58 AM

I don't know, that 6m peak =10m foil and 9m peak=14m foil seems VERY suspicious to me....really seems like marketing juju.

That only seems to be the case in FB kites, or FB styled kites.

But in reading the google translated page, they could pretty much be talking about my 2004 Rookie2.....pulls very hard for it's size, depower is on/off with no real in-between.... I would imagine they have improved in a decade!

Still want to see it in person, but that video made me a bit less excited and loads more suspicious!

bobalooie57 - 27-10-2013 at 07:40 AM

Quote: Originally posted by IMK  
Quote: Originally posted by bobalooie57  
Quote: Originally posted by sendit  
http://www.peterlynnhimself.com/newsletter/Oct_Nl_13.html


I found this pretty interesting, so I ordered the 4M! I will post a review when I get it and fly it.


They look interesting. Where did you order the 4m from?


I used the link in the newsletter to contact P Lynn himself, and he put me on to the contact. I'll look it up and U2U it to you.

Bladerunner - 27-10-2013 at 01:13 PM

Quote: Originally posted by bigE123  
I'm sure any single skin kite will have it's roots based on a NPW...... I'm sure I've seen something similar ;-)



This is one interesting NPW !

From the little I understand NPW like the NASA star accomplish depower by tucking the nose ????? This one looks like you can actually adjust AOA ? If so can you tell us how it performs compared to your traditional ones.

Is it just me or do the wingtips on the Peak look unfinished ? They just seem to end at a flat rib? They look to flap around a bit in the videos. Possibly adding to the On / Off issue?

While Flysurfer may be leaning on the NPW designs I see them using other influences like the stiff rods to hold shape and more of a traditional foil profile. Big props to them for using every advantage they can find.

MeatŠriver - 29-10-2013 at 09:22 AM

Regarding the "flapping," my understanding from what I have read is that the tips flutter a bit for a moment when letting the bar out transitioning from powered to depowered.
A couple more random bits in this XK thread. http://www.extremekites.com.au/forums/viewtopic.php?f=17&...

DemBones - 2-11-2013 at 03:17 AM

The prior Peter Lynn newsletter explains the concept and origins of this design a bit better.

linky

Quote:

More recently, parapent designers approached the problem from a different direction- by taking the lower skins off their multi-celled high performance ram air wings.

bigE123 - 2-11-2013 at 03:50 AM

Quote:
From the little I understand NPW like the NASA star accomplish depower by tucking the nose ????? This one looks like you can actually adjust AOA ? If so can you tell us how it performs compared to your traditional ones.

The NPW in the pic has no de-power on it, it was a test to try out a wider aspect ratio and what fitting keels did. I have an 11.8m NASA logo NPW which does have de-power on it. It is de-powered by altering the AoA, although it doesn't have the power range of a foil it does de-power and fly faster on a lower AoA and slows down / powers up on a higher AoA. Giving me a wider wind range to fly it in.

PS As Peter Lynn is sending some of his kites out I don't think it so much of a secret any more........ I've got a 4m prototype for testing ;-) and they do what they say on the tin!!

rectifier - 2-11-2013 at 10:33 PM

Interesting, interesting... I'm more interested in PL's new NASA inspired single skins from the newsletter than this Flysurfer monstrosity, to be honest. Floppy edges, massive overcomplexity, and IMO one hell of an ugly kite!

Perhaps I should see if PL will sell me one of the kits... if I can put it together right! haha ;)
He did mention that L/D was no better than NPWs, those who have got their hands on them - what did you think about the window/upwind? Is it a depower? Is it better than experimental NPW depower systems?

bigE123 - 3-11-2013 at 02:42 AM

Quote:
He did mention that L/D was no better than NPWs, those who have got their hands on them - what did you think about the window/upwind? Is it a depower? Is it better than experimental NPW depower systems?


The kite I have is a 4m fb, as much as I'd like to give a full review, I don't think it would be really fair as it is a prototype and as such I doubt it would be the same as the final production kite. The key seems to be in the simplicity.

Since getting the kite I've only had chance to fly it a couple of times as the winds have been way too high. The static session I had in around 12 mph winds the kite feels very light and has that solid NPW power. In the buggy again it feels very stable with lots of power, but until I can get more flying time with it I can't really comment on window size. What I will say is that once these kites become available they will be a real alternative to any kite out there, especially at the price they are hinted to be released at.... cheaper to buy than make!!

skimtwashington - 3-11-2013 at 07:06 AM

what is "L/D"....?

Interesting newsletter.

The lightweight packability and lower wind flyability will be a boon for adventurers or trekkers. You will still need to have more than one kite for such adventures...but they'll be lighter and take less space in your backpack.

If they can just now come up with one adjustable kite that will handle 3-35+ mph winds and you got it all!:lol:

'Cheaper to buy than make?' Oh, c'mon!:rolleyes:

Kamikuza - 3-11-2013 at 07:41 AM

Lift/Drag ratio...

How much is your time worth? How many hours would it take you to make a kite? Do the math...

skimtwashington - 3-11-2013 at 08:04 AM

Can you give a hint on the price they hinted at if hinting from the hinterland....?:D

bobalooie57 - 3-11-2013 at 09:04 AM

Hey ski, I have the 4M on order, it hasn't arrived yet, but I payed $124.80 with shipping. When it arrives, I plan on flying it side by side with my 3.8M Reactor, on the same line set for comparison. I will post video/review when I can.

skimtwashington - 3-11-2013 at 10:08 PM

from Nov. newsletter:http://www.peterlynnhimself.com/newsletter/Nov_Nl_13.html
Quote:

the kite can be either rigged for bar flying (and no-brains handle flying for beginners) or for handle flying with de-power and zero wind capabilities


Not sure how it becomes a 'depower' on a 4-line handles. :puzzled:

rectifier - 3-11-2013 at 10:51 PM

Depower doesn't just mean the bar goes in and out. It only means the AoA of the canopy is being changed. As such, you can depower on handles, as long as you tilt them both at the same rate.
BigE has some NPWs rigged with a "universal depower system" which tilts the whole kite and looks pretty neat. As far as I know, he flies them on handles.

What I don't see is how the SKIN is a depower kite. No pulleys, so it looks a lot like how a traditional NPW "depowers" by changing trailing edge shape and slowing down the kite. Unless he has come up with something truly revolutionary?

Neat how he has picked up the Z bridle from the NPW flying community. It really does help with flyability

IMK - 4-11-2013 at 02:05 AM

In this context I think 'depower' is being used literally and relates to the fact that when the brakes are fully released the tips 'rag out' and the kite goes from max power to about 50% power (at least this is my interpretation after emailing Peter Lynn)

Kamikuza - 4-11-2013 at 04:22 AM

Quote: Originally posted by skimtwashington  
Can you give a hint on the price they hinted at if hinting from the hinterland....?:D

Sorry, didn't mean that to sound as grumpy as it might seem...

I think I heard E1200...?

bigE123 - 4-11-2013 at 05:19 AM

From the one I have it has no de-power just the four lines and like an NPW no brake tension results in some flapping and yes less power but I wouldn't say that's a de-power kite, hence the "Z" bridle making a difference and makes it "easier" to fly and does not seem to compromise the window.

I do use my de-power kites on handles, but there is a trade off doing this, as you power-up you get more power transmitted down the brake lines as that is what is controlling the AoA, just something I've got used to. Once on a turbo bar tho all is really sweet.

erratic winds - 4-11-2013 at 08:38 AM

So fixed bridle kites on handles just became depower kites? what the eff?

In that case I got a ozone haka 5m depower kite for sale. I mean, it was FB on handles with brakes and zero depower yesterday, but then I read this thread, and everything must have magically changed.

bigE123 - 4-11-2013 at 10:37 AM

:D Only when the lines at the other end of the handles have some pulley magic going on, otherwise it just aint de-power.

erratic winds - 4-11-2013 at 10:54 AM

So adding a single pulley to a FB kite on handles makes it a depower kite? I honestly don't agree.

I would LOVE IT if we could talk about the FLYSURFER PEAK in this thread, and perhaps you guys could have a PL whatever-it's-called thread as well, so we could kind of be on topic? I know I kind of got roped into the off-topic discussion, but I don't think it's helping people learn about the PEAK.

bigE123 - 4-11-2013 at 12:22 PM

Agreed ;-) (needs more than just one pulley, but that's another story).
Back on topic,

Still interesting how the two companies have attacked the single skin design from completely different angles, I do like the PL approach of a much more simplistic looking kite, even though no kite is a simplistic thing, the trick is getting it to do the job in the most efficient manor.

skimtwashington - 4-11-2013 at 06:29 PM

How does the Z-bridal set up effect the AoA as compared w/ standard set up on NPW, Skin or other similar kite?


I have a FB w/handle racing style kite with a pulley a z-like set up between brake and power LEAD lines.



How is this set up affect Kite? I was only told it helps turn the kite faster and or make it more responsive...especially w bigger kites.


Seems when using brake it may keep AoA lower...more constant ......but I'm not sure? I defer to others

rectifier - 4-11-2013 at 08:30 PM

I agree that we have got off topic badly, got a couple of single skin nuts interested here I think! Sorry to the OP. Back to the Peak.

So the Peak appears to be a true depower single skin while the Skin is not. You can find the bridle plan on this page: http://flysurfer.com/produkte/kites/peak/
It appears that pulling the bar tilts the A/B/C bridles back and forth relative to the brake bridle and changes AoA.

What they haven't done is figured out how to stop the luffing that occurs on the wingtips in a setup like this. I remember someone posted a NPW with a single pulley depower on an old thread of mine: http://www.powerkiteforum.com/viewthread.php?tid=22137#pid21...
Notice the wingtips doing the same thing when AoA is changed.

Perhaps a system with more pulleys would do better - or maybe the luffing is just cosmetic? Personally, I just don't like luffing in a kite from an aesthetic point of view.

Off topic for skimtwashington: Z bridles do not affect the AoA, which is determined in the main bridles. Your setup is not technically a Z-bridle, Z-bridles are on the kite end of the lines and all they do is apply a constant brake bias regardless of line sag or slack on the brakes. Allowing you to fly a kite that requires constant brake pressure without having to apply that pressure, well, constantly. Your setup allows you to apply greater force to the brake lines via the "leverage" of the pulley, making it easier to pull in the brake on bigger kites.

bigE123 - 5-11-2013 at 01:03 AM

Quote:
Perhaps a system with more pulleys would do better - or maybe the luffing is just cosmetic? Personally, I just don't like luffing in a kite from an aesthetic point of view.


I don't like luffing either! It's for that reason when I change the AoA on mine it only applies to the centre panel, this approach keeps the wings fully inflated with no luffing, I may not get a full de-power range but I get stability right across the wing on low AoA.

So the question is who has flown a Peak? It has a hefty price tag is it worth it?

bigE123 - 8-11-2013 at 06:35 AM

Quote:
Neat how he has picked up the Z bridle from the NPW flying community. It really does help with flyability

Why didn't I read the Nov article I'm mentioned in it :D

http://www.peterlynnhimself.com/newsletter/Nov_Nl_13.html