Power Kite Forum

Strutless (or should we still strut our stuff)

PistolPete - 18-5-2013 at 10:09 PM

Watching the new strutless fad-or-future unfold... what are your thoughts/predictions :puzzled:


http://naishkites.com/Trip-NEW/


http://boardridingmaui.com/kite.html


http://www.airush.com/2013/kites/lithium-zero/

Maybe Strutless 2-Line C Kites are the future :P

crazyherb - 18-5-2013 at 10:36 PM

I wanna fly one...they look right up my alley.

Snake - 18-5-2013 at 10:53 PM

From some of the reviews I have read, they seem to be "arc-like". They seem like they would behave similar to a twinskin being they hay to support there shape.

As for the future... I think the future will be foils. Tubes won the battle over foils in the beginning hence why they are so popular today. Tubes have been about pushed to there design limit. Compared to foils they aren't very efficient. They are heavy and the one skin causes lots of drag and inefficiencies . The main advantage of tubes is the sled boosting effect. Basically the kite wants to stay in a high lift state as long as possible when jumping. Foils (especially arcs) do about the opposite as they want to get rid of the lift as fast as possible. They get lift from speed and efficiency. New foil designs are increasing the sled boosting effect while new tube designs are decreasing the sled boosting effect.

These are a step forward but I still believe foils will win in the end.

Kamikuza - 19-5-2013 at 01:59 AM

Nah, I think tubes will always be here. They're so much less hassle in general - comparing a foil to a tube IS like comparing a Ferrari to a Toyota... but sometimes you just don't want to be bothered with all the tuning and maintenance.

Flyfish - 19-5-2013 at 08:55 AM

Snake, very good points. But I think Kami is right about market appeal. Foils are fringe. I steal this saying from helicopter pilots but... Any Idiot can fly a tube kite, it takes a special idiot to fly a foil.

Snake - 19-5-2013 at 04:22 PM

Kami, what do you mean tubes are less maintenance? Tubes have leaky valves and popped bladders. I've never done any maintenance to my arcs. Prefilling is pretty much equivalent to pumping. Flysurfers are about the only foil that I know of that need regular tune-ups, but they also have that Ferrari price tag and if I was spending that much on a kite I definitely want it to preform at it's best at all times. I'm not saying the future will be tubeless. I'm saying that most will switch to foils. I always read "I'll never go back to tubes now that I tried a flysurfer speed 3" but I never hear it the other way around.

erratic winds - 19-5-2013 at 04:40 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Snake  
Kami, what do you mean tubes are less maintenance? Tubes have leaky valves and popped bladders............I'm not saying the future will be tubeless. I'm saying that most will switch to foils. I always read "I'll never go back to tubes now that I tried a flysurfer speed 3" but I never hear it the other way around.



You seem to be calling your personal anecdotes "data" and that doesn't work very well.(or you're just repeating "something" that "someone" told you, which is MUCH worse....) I've seen plenty of posts about stuck zippers on arcs, but that never stopped me from trying one. I personally fly two LEI's that are 4 &5 years old and no leaks. Popped one bladder in my life on a 8 year old Slingshot fuel.

A wing is a wing. Treat it right, and it'll treat you right. Beat it up, and it'll fail.

I personally think this kind of discourse is best left at the zoo, have seen & participated in too many arguments from PumpMeUp to ever debate foil VS Lei again. (Oh god, a quick google shows a first rant on this subject in 2002. I had no idea.)

wings are wings so go fly


Quote: Originally posted by Snake  
I always read "I'll never go back to tubes now that I tried a flysurfer speed 3" but I never hear it the other way around.


I've watched a couple buggiers move to LEI depower rather than the Fixed Bridle Foil. I don't see why that's not the other side of the coin.

martinipro - 19-5-2013 at 05:16 PM

From what ive heard they are the exact oposite of twinskins.
Great low end and horrible iin gusty winds.

shaggs2riches - 20-5-2013 at 01:38 AM

Still waiting for a hybrid mix foil with bladder that offers the best of both worlds. That design looks like it has shed a good amount of weight from struts. Foil vs tube has been beaten to death far too many times. Fly what you like, because you are gonna do best with what you are most comfortable with. I doubt either design will ever completely overtake the other.

Kamikuza - 20-5-2013 at 02:11 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Snake  
Kami, what do you mean tubes are less maintenance? Tubes have leaky valves and popped bladders. I've never done any maintenance to my arcs. Prefilling is pretty much equivalent to pumping. Flysurfers are about the only foil that I know of that need regular tune-ups, but they also have that Ferrari price tag and if I was spending that much on a kite I definitely want it to preform at it's best at all times. I'm not saying the future will be tubeless. I'm saying that most will switch to foils. I always read "I'll never go back to tubes now that I tried a flysurfer speed 3" but I never hear it the other way around.

After using tubes and foils side-by-side for the past 3 years, I've finally got a slow leak in one of the struts… I wash them occasionally and tune the bar once a year and that's all I've done to them.

The Speeds, on the other hand :rolleyes: there's always something to fiddle with.

Performance-wise, the Speed3 is well ahead but it comes at a price—finicky handling. Punchy wind is not their friend either. For just sheeting in and going, LEIs take the cake.

Pre-felling is like pumping, if you stand around with the pump in one hand, doing nothing :lol: can't beat my Speeds for hitting the beach, unrolling the kite and lines and just getting onto the water in a HURRY!

I'll leave the leaking kite with the shop guy for a day and it'll be fixed for a couple of bucks ;)

lives2fly - 20-5-2013 at 04:14 AM

Its an interesting development for sure. Some manufacturers (airush, boardriders) are going for big light wind designs and Naish at least are using packability for travel as the selling point. The prototype is a 10m.

I think they will be an option in these 2 markets but thats all. Strong &/or gusty winds need a high tension canopy and lots of struts.

Nobody really considers foils as a serious choice for general use on the water. They are better in light wind but kitesurfing is not much fun in light wind anyway. On land its the other way round, LEI have a few specialist benefits (Boost, float and stability) but they are an unpractical choice for the majority of land based riders.

If foil sales couldn't compete with LEI when LEI had limited wind range, useless depower, awkward re-launch and dubious safety and construction I really can't see them becoming dominant now. I can't fault the newer LEIs i have flown.

I think its more personal preference these days. All the types of kite are good and you can just fly what you want.

PistolPete - 30-1-2014 at 10:14 PM

It's 2014 and it looks like struts (micro/smaller/fewer) are here to stay:










Kamikuza - 31-1-2014 at 12:31 AM

I got to use that Airush One 18m strutless in super-light wind in Thailand this summer... you gotta make sure it's pumped right the hell up or it'll fold the wing tips when you load it up. I wouldn't trust it jumping when over-powered like I do my XB16 or Flite 17... but for mowing the lawn, it seems to do ok. Speed3 21 is far more fun though, despite being a lot slower. I personally wasn't impressed with the power the Airush made in turns so don't see it as an option for light wind.

The Naish Ride 10m I've seen here a few times, used by directional riders... seems ok for what it does - for little riders.

grigorib - 5-10-2014 at 08:54 AM

Tried Airush 18m in 7-8 knot wind. Pulls well, BUT it sits a lot further in the wind window and I don't think wakestyle and low wind mix well. Upwind sucked. Lot of flutter when depowered is usual for strutless or one strut but that doesn't bother me that much.
I'd much rather fly my LF NRG Light Breeze 16m on 30m lines or my Speed3 19m Deluxe in the same conditions but it's just my personal preference. Flew Turbine on the same day - it needed extension lines badly.

PistolPete - 5-10-2014 at 01:06 PM

This guy has been working on DYI Strutlesses for quite a while. He has completed and flew a few :wow:

http://www.bayareakiteboarding.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=12235

http://www.bayareakiteboarding.com/forum/download/file.php?id=4103

rtz - 5-10-2014 at 01:19 PM

Fast forward this up to 3:30 to hear what he has to say about no strut kites:


grigorib - 5-10-2014 at 06:08 PM

I love the theory about "big kite for a fat guy" and a "big lightwind kite"
Do not expect 14m Slingshot RPM to be your low wind savior.

Three things I would prioritize as follows.
1. A door or proper lightwind surfboard
2. Long lines - 30-35m lines give you whole lot of a apparent wind to get going
3. True lightwind kite, not a depower paper bag

BeamerBob - 5-10-2014 at 06:22 PM

I've got all 3 on my kite shelf. I regularly fly fixed bridle kites, have some large foils on my wishlist, and an LEI has high promises to be my next go fast kite. An LEI took me faster this spring than I've ever been in the buggy. My 8m Montana 8 is one of the best kites I've ever flown. Don't miss the chance to fly a great kite because of how it's made.

I wonder about the possibilities of rigid strut framed kites we haven't seen yet for land use. We aren't in the golden era of kite power yet, but we have some great stuff available right now.

RedSky - 5-10-2014 at 06:48 PM

I want to hear stuff made for high wind. Low wind pfff. :D

rtz - 5-10-2014 at 07:26 PM

I like Flexi Sting 1.7m for 40 mph+ wind. What do you use when it's blowing?

RedSky - 5-10-2014 at 07:40 PM

I'd use LEI's because the kite keeps its shape and I love the security of depower. However, 40+mph with a fixed bridle takes much more balls than I'm willing to lose.

PistolPete - 5-10-2014 at 07:45 PM

Quote: Originally posted by RedSky  
I want to hear stuff made for high wind. Low wind pfff. :D


High wind strutless :lol:

RedSky - 5-10-2014 at 10:32 PM

Brilliant! :D

Blake - 12-12-2014 at 09:08 PM

I have been riding my BoardridingMaui CLOUDS for a couple of years now, wouldn't go back to a strutted kite for anything....

Just back from a really nice trip to Mexico and rode my Clouds, loved the conditions.

Try any of the strutless kites before making an uninformed decision or negative comments......

Blake

Blake - 12-12-2014 at 09:09 PM

I have been riding my BoardridingMaui CLOUDS for a couple of years now, wouldn't go back to a strutted kite for anything....

Just back from a really nice trip to Mexico and rode my Clouds, loved the conditions.

Try any of the strutless kites before making an uninformed decision or negative comments......

Blake

flyhighWNY - 12-12-2014 at 09:33 PM

Off topic a bit but has anyone seen a post from "Snake" lately?

PistolPete - 6-2-2016 at 10:47 PM

Few more years and looks like the strutless kites are here to stay.
The one strut LF Solo looks like a nice compromise too.

Enjoyed the development history video on the 3 generations of cloud strutless kites that founder/designer/rider Greg Drexler shared.
Watching the video of his riding style and listening to his passion for hydrofoil-boarding is also inspiring.








Kamikuza - 7-2-2016 at 03:23 AM

Yeah, but most are going for one strut. The Clouds are something special though, it seems...