Power Kite Forum

Four-line power kite handle connecting line

neilbarnwell - 3-5-2013 at 01:15 PM

I have a four-line "PKD Buster" power kite and am finding turning it a challenge. It turns, but quite slowly (and one time it turned so slow and wide it went through the most powerful area of the wind window and pulled me off my feet).

I'm wondering if I could/should cut the thick cord that connects the top of the handles? What is it's purpose? It seems to a layman that cutting it would allow me to move the handles further apart when steering and thus steer quicker, but for all I know that will just collapse the wing the first time I attempt it.

Many thanks in advance.

Neil.

BigMikesKites - 3-5-2013 at 01:21 PM

You can do this or get some handles that don't have the strop between. you are right on it will be much more maneuverable.

B-Roc - 3-5-2013 at 01:32 PM

Or, you could learn to turn the kite with a combination, pull / push turn (push left bottom out and pull right bottom in at same time as you move your right hand towards you and left away). That engages the whole bridle and turns the canopy quicker than just pulling one level handle towards you.

You can cut the strop but I find the strop a good tool to teach better technique and limit the amount of arm flailing as that's not necessary.

What size kite and handles are you using? Large kites like longer handles.

Turtlejon - 3-5-2013 at 06:12 PM

We have a pkd buster, and the strop is maybe 12 inches, I couldn't get it to turn without braking a lot, and then it was no fun to fly. I cut it after maybe 20 minutes...
Go for it.
Tie a knot an inch in, cut the line at the end of the knot, sear it with a lighter.
If you need a strop later, larks head it onto the line before the knot.
It is a great little kite once that thing gets out of the way!

B-Roc - 3-5-2013 at 06:17 PM

If the strop is only 12" I recant and would recommend you cut it AND learn combo turns.

Turtlejon - 3-5-2013 at 08:44 PM

Exactly! It can almost spin in place with the proper technique.

Windy Heap - 4-5-2013 at 08:53 AM

Welcome to the PKF forums with your first post Neil.

While I'm a noobie to foils, I've done twin line stunts kites for years and years.............there is a different flying style with quad lines, and that is USING the brakes, now that you got 'em.

I've only had a couple flights on my buster 3.3 and the first couple times I was saying the same thing, "man this thing turns slow" (my strop is intact) Then after a couple of thumps into the sand and inverted launching, you get to appreciate and utilize brake input, and not just left / right tugging on the lines like you would on a stunt kite.


My strop is staying in place, so I can hook into a couple of harnesses I just bought to eliminate arm jello.

if anything, I want MORE brake responsiveness!

On the Buster, on the kite brake bridle, it comes with an end of line knot, then a second one about ~3" further in toward the kite. One thing I WILL try next time, is at the kite end brake bridle, I'm going to add another 3rd knot further in towards the kite to effectively shorten the brake lines and provide more brake input. I noticed my brakes lines while on the 2nd knot seemed to be a little too slack and not permiting "enough" braking to turn sharper.


Does this sound like a good suggestion for me to try, basically changing the angle of attack of the foil to trim it for more braking capability? I'd rather just add a knot to get me snappier turning with more brakes, instead of cutting the strop.

acampbell - 4-5-2013 at 10:48 AM

Quote: Originally posted by neilbarnwell  
What is it's purpose? It seems to a layman that cutting it would allow me to move the handles further apart when steering and thus steer quicker, but for all I know that will just collapse the wing the first time I attempt it.

Many thanks in advance.

Neil.


It is called a strop. It is for "hooking in", or connecting the kite to a harness by flipping the strop into the harness spreader bar hook, or in some cases, a pulley. It takes the strain off. We don't recommend this until you are really familiar with the kite in all conditions. It is potentially dangerous since it is most difficult to unhook when you need to the most.

The only advantage the strop presents to a novice is preventing what I call the "carrier-landing", or the habit of many novices of spreading their arms too far apart in attempts to steer. But that is a minor advantage compared to the disadvantages.

Turtlejohn's advice is good- cut it and leave enough on each handle for a knot about an inch away. This is how most quad handles come set up. Makes it easy to add a strop later (and the length that is right for you).

Windy Heap - 4-5-2013 at 02:54 PM

To Quote Angus: strops (and the length that is right for you).


so how to best determine "proper" strop length? At full kite turn: one elbows at your hips, the other at full length arm extension?

or at a 45-60 degree arm bend? Or just start with a longer strop and cut it down or use a sliding knot to trim it out.

much of a difference for flying static, buggy, or ATB?


or is it just a personal preference how tight/close to have the handles to your waist and your arm length at extension?

Noobie Harness user here, sorry for the most basic questions but I'm hooking into the PKF brain-trust.


I see Wichard quick release soon just as a bail out if needed. So even then with a Wichard or pulley/hook length, you'd have to shorten a strop further too I assume, so getting back to my "where should my arms be with a optimum length strop" to start with for noobie hook riders.


Heading off to the kite field later today......

acampbell - 4-5-2013 at 03:38 PM

Dave you have everything right. It's what you can reach.

Flying static with a strop though, not much point unless you are practicing to put yourself in motion. It's more for flying upwind on buggy/ board/ skis where the forces are so huge that it's hard to take on your arms and fingers. Then on your downwind leg (if there is one) you unhook because the kite is relatively light as a feather and your appreciate the greater mobility of not be constrained while you try to keep the kite in the air. Downwind runs require much more finesse.

In the buggy, yeah the strop can be shorter because you are all scrunched up and closer to it but it's really all about you, the proportions of your frame (body) and what feels right.

Excellent questions and assumptions.

Turtlejon - 4-5-2013 at 08:42 PM

@windy heap when I traded out the stock yellow lines with the ones from my PL core, the brakes were much more responsive. The stock lines felt stretchy, which made the action spongy feeling. They also were so "ribbed" in the braid that after a few twists there was quite a bit of resistance to the lines sliding past each other. These two factors combine when doing push / pull turns past one loop to make the opposite brake take a long time to react. I wanted more responsive handling so I shortened the brake lines, but it just made me have to fly with my wrists turned funny, or it would engage the brakes. I wasn't satisfied, so I tried the PL lines, it went from being a station wagon into a sportscar, much more responsive!

Windy Heap - 5-5-2013 at 12:04 AM

Enjoyed my first at a new Flyling Field, for static hooked in flight, had about 3 of them total, 6-8 constat with a few gusts up around 10-11. My 3.3 busteron handles was right in the zone, while a guy next to me with a Prisim of same size on a bar seemed to really be struggling.


I liked how my new dakine waist harness worked out with standard factory hook and factory kite PKD strope line, (Though it does seem short at 12-14".

I havent' tried my dakine seat harness yet as thats more for the PL 6.8 ViperS. During several of the gusty sessions, I found my line came loose from the harness hook, no big deal, just tucked it back under, but with flying FULL on power and only steering brakes, I see why many people like a locked in line in a latched cover pulley system, so your strop doesn't just fall off the hook..


YUP, I'm a noobie learning static flying with options of getting into motion, I don't baby the kite around the sky and after 10-15 minutes my arms are jello. I like the lower support point of the harness, regardless of motion goal. Now to just fine tune on the Buster 3.3, and getting prepared for the Pl 6.8m that I've not flown yet....that is the one that will cause due diligence and respect from my part. Got good knee pads, 2 good harness, now going shoping for a lightweight helmet other than my Motorcycle gear I have.


I have several type of bulk cord that is rugged strong woven poly with at 3/16 - 1/4 diameter is slippery and strong. The PL Handles off the Viper S have no joining strop, but two loops to attach a strope too..........what is the best knot for this, and Isure people will say knots only with no metal clips or links to get in the way???



Thanks all helping the noob get rigged up RIGHT the first time.

acampbell - 5-5-2013 at 03:55 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Windy Heap  
The PL Handles off the Viper S have no joining strop, but two loops to attach a strope too..........what is the best knot for this, and Isure people will say knots only with no metal clips or links to get in the way???




Strop_to_Loop.jpg - 37kB

WIllardTheGrey - 5-5-2013 at 10:31 AM

Also known as a Sheet Bend.


You do want to tie the stopper in the bitter end as Angus's illustration shows. A simple over hand works, a figure eight is more elegant. It is just that little bit of extra safety to ease the mind.:smug:

jgorm - 5-5-2013 at 10:44 AM

I'm a huge fan of the bowline knot. super secure and easier to untie than most other knots. I never liked the sheet bend and go straight for a square knot because it is less likely to come undone.

WIllardTheGrey - 5-5-2013 at 10:55 AM

Quote: Originally posted by jgorm  
I'm a huge fan of the bowline knot. super secure and easier to untie than most other knots. I never liked the sheet bend and go straight for a square knot because it is less likely to come undone.


A Sheet Bend is structurally the same as the Bowline, just cut the loop and see. You never want to use the Square Knot as a bend because it collapses into a Larks Head so easily and your left with your knot sliding off the end of the rope.

Quote:
The Reef Knot or Square Knot General



The reef-knot is only useful in simple applications. Ashley says "it is a true Binder Knot, for which it is admirable, but under no circumstances should it be used as a bend." It is easy tied and will not jam, so it is always easy to untie. It is used to tie packages, and as a base for he shoe-bow. Sailors used it for binding rolled sails or better reefed sails. And that is where it got its english name from. Americans call it the square knot. Probably because it looks square, or because it was much used on square-rigged-ships, but that is a total guess of me.
Its relatives, the granny, the thief-knot and the what-knot all have their purposes, but not as a trustful knot.


Quote:

The Reef Knot Family

The reef knot or square knot is notably dangerous if misused. The square knot or reef knot should only be used as a binding knot where it lies tightly against the surface of that which it binds and cannot move.

Unfortunately, it is wrongly used as a bend where it has killed many. Used as a bend, joining two ropes, it can unexpectedly spill. What's worse is that it often times holds firm so as to give people a false sense of security, thus setting the stage for tragedy when it shows its true unstable nature. Even minute differences in rope size, texture, or stiffness in what most would consider "normal" rope, will greatly amplify the insecurity of a reef knot used as a bend. It's also very vulnerable to spill when being pulled around corners or over rough terrain, especially if a free end gets snagged.

neilbarnwell - 8-5-2013 at 03:11 AM

Thanks for the advice, guys - so much forthcoming I shall return here when I inevitably have more questions.

I shall cut the stop and leave a short length on either handle with a knot so I can re-connect them again in the future or to something else (like a harness or whatever).

Thanks again!