Power Kite Forum - buying advice for a newbie

buying advice for a newbie

yeti - 26-3-2013 at 10:58 AM

I hope this is the right sub-forum. I'm looking for any good advice at this point, but to start with I would like to hear recommendations on kites.

I started snow kiting in Colorado this year, but I'm not new to kites. I've been out a few times and I want to pick up maybe two new (or nearly new) kites to start a collection and finish out the rest of the winter. I would like to have the option to use this stuff on water in the summer.

What should I be looking for? It seems like LEI is the only sensible option. Hopefully someone in the area who knows what works best with Colorado wind can chime in. I've got 170lbs to pull and I've flown an older Ozone 8m Access and a well-used 10m Wainman LEI on different days. Based on my limited experience it seems like I should aim for an 8 and a 12, and maybe more beginner-oriented models would help deal with gusty wind? Looks like there are new 2011 and 2012 kites with good discounts out there.

3shot - 26-3-2013 at 03:28 PM

Cant help with snow and water. Just wanted to say welcome to PKF!!!

The suggestions from others will pile in tonight!

These guys rock :bigok:

Bladerunner - 26-3-2013 at 04:58 PM

Buy used kites .
New kites drop greatly in value as soon as they leave the shop.
You will be pretty hard on your kites at 1st so better not to spend too much.
You will likely buy and sell a bit at 1st so will lose much less buying used.

There are basically 2 types of soft kite that can be used on water and land. They accomplish this with " closed cells " . A tapered inlet works like a one way valve. The 2 styles are bridled foils and twin sk

in arcs.

For closed cell foils you want to look at : Flysurfer, HQ, and SkyCountry.
For arcs you only have Peter Lynn.

Each of these companies have different models with different characteristics.

If you go used and find good deals you may want to consider a 3 kite quiver ? Low, med., and high winds.

A very low wind kite is a handy tool to avoid getting skunked on those almost no wind days. The KING of low wind engines is Flysurfer Speed 19 or 21 but they are spendy. ( one for sale on here now ) 7 or 8 for high winds. 10 or 12 for average winds.

Having a very small Fixed bridle foil can be handy for those nuking days when even a 7 is too much. ( 1.5 Rage on here now )

OH ... that's 4 kites !
I would FAR rather have 4 quality used kites than 2 new ones !

:bigok:

yeti - 26-3-2013 at 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bladerunner
Buy used kites .
New kites drop greatly in value as soon as they leave the shop.
You will be pretty hard on your kites at 1st so better not to spend too much.
You will likely buy and sell a bit at 1st so will lose much less buying used.

I should have said this up front, but I decided recently that I would try to avoid used equipment. So maybe that's still the wrong thing to do. This was all based on the 10m Wainman I mentioned. I got one used and even though I can say I got a good deal - it isn't really as hassle free as I wanted. I've had this thing out a few times and thought maybe I should get something in better shape and not have to deal with the hassle of repairs. I just don't have enough space to do proper repairs and sending stuff away means I can't use it while it's gone. Losing money right away on maintenance and shipping seemed like the wrong way to go if I'm willing to spend a little more. So maybe I'd be fixing little tears and holes either way?

For the kite I already own - I was going to just retire it temporarily and deal with it later.

Quote:

There are basically 2 types of soft kite that can be used on water and land. They accomplish this with " closed cells " . A tapered inlet works like a one way valve. The 2 styles are bridled foils and twin sk

in arcs.

For closed cell foils you want to look at : Flysurfer, HQ, and SkyCountry.
For arcs you only have Peter Lynn.

Each of these companies have different models with different characteristics.

If you go used and find good deals you may want to consider a 3 kite quiver ? Low, med., and high winds.

A very low wind kite is a handy tool to avoid getting skunked on those almost no wind days. The KING of low wind engines is Flysurfer Speed 19 or 21 but they are spendy. ( one for sale on here now ) 7 or 8 for high winds. 10 or 12 for average winds.

Having a very small Fixed bridle foil can be handy for those nuking days when even a 7 is too much. ( 1.5 Rage on here now )

OH ... that's 4 kites !
I would FAR rather have 4 quality used kites than 2 new ones !

I was under the impression that for some reason arcs and foils weren't the answer for a beginner. Foils would probably be fine on snow but I've been told I'd want inflatables on water. I liked how the Ozone access I had flew really nice and responsive and I'm sure the newer ones are even better. So I thought about finding closed cell foils because of that, but I was also told it's better to stick with LEI.

BigMikesKites - 26-3-2013 at 07:30 PM

I don't think i'd use an LEI on the snow. Haven't done it...don't get around snow much, but a twinskin like the PL Charger or Phantom would do well on snow and still give you water capability. Charger more so than phantom. Also, the HQ Neo and Matrixx would do well for both.

Cerebite - 26-3-2013 at 07:36 PM

There are several of us active on here from Colorado (me, erratic winds, jeepersjoey, proletariat). I fly NPWs and foils on buggy, jeepersjoey mostly flys foils (but he has a couple of NPWs) on buggy, erratic winds does inflatables on ATB (and snow), and proletariat is still in the discovery phase and tries everything.

Are you in the Denver area or elsewhere in the state?

JJ and I will be in AZ/ CA/ NV for the next week and a half and then the Rocky Mtn. Kite Assn (meetup, yahoo groups, Facebook) is heavily involved in th Arvada Kite Festival (little to no room for big/ traction kite) so it may be late Apr before we can show you around but we would love to.

The problem with kiting here is light gusty winds so we gravitate towards large wings with a lot of gust munching capability. It those same features do not lend themselves to beginner skill levels.

Bladerunner - 26-3-2013 at 07:54 PM

There is another thread going on at the moment about learning on water with foils.

I agree that if you can learn in shallows it's not so bad.

Mostly I was just suggesting what to look at other than LEI.

There is used and then there is lightly used. Sounds like you got a very used Wainman ?

abkayak - 26-3-2013 at 08:07 PM

Yea.....u should go..my advice..the only way to scratch that itch is buy everything

yeti - 26-3-2013 at 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cerebite
Are you in the Denver area or elsewhere in the state?

I guess you could say I'm in the Denver area. Assuming there's no traffic I can get to Dillon in about 2 hours.

I definitely have next to no experience with power kiting so far, which is why I'm here trying to figure out what to do. But if I can figure out how to get more time in the harness without spending too many thousands of dollars I think I'll be ok.

I've been a skier for 25 years and flew stunt kites all the time when I was a kid. I have a premier widow sitting in the closet actually, so this all seemed pretty easy when I started. And I did do a fairly lengthy lesson on water over a year ago now. You could say that's what started it all and I feel reasonably comfortable safety-wise, so don't want to freak anyone out. I get the sense from forums like this that a lot of people rush into kite sports without realizing how quick things can go wrong.

yeti - 26-3-2013 at 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bladerunner
There is another thread going on at the moment about learning on water with foils.

I agree that if you can learn in shallows it's not so bad.

Thanks. I'll go see what's up. Don't think I have the luxury of shallows here. Should have learned it when I lived on the east coast.

Quote:

Mostly I was just suggesting what to look at other than LEI.

There is used and then there is lightly used. Sounds like you got a very used Wainman ?

Yeah I like to hear everyone's suggestions. It's a bit confusing though because as you can imagine, I get a lot of different opinions.

The Wainman I bought is actually in decent shape (I think), and I could probably make it work like new with a new set of bladders. When it's freshly pumped it flies great and I know it probably sounds like a simple repair to mostly everyone here. Maybe I shouldn't let that one turn me away from the used stuff?

Kober - 26-3-2013 at 09:00 PM

If you can get Wainham to work .... that is very good kite to learn with on water ..... not too fast .... easy re-launch ... good power .... and not too old to exclude it from you quaver .... and since you are learning .... you will drop it many times what will make it more and more "used" and maybe damaged ... You dont want new kite when you learning ,,,,,,
... Since you dont have much experience with de-powers I would stay with LEIs when learning on water .... specially if you dont have shallow spot near by .... It makes learning so much quicker then with foils ..... For someone having landkite experience with foils I would say go ahead and use them on water ..... but I met few people who try that and was unsuccessful until they purchase LEI ....
... Now ..... LEI on land ..... After mastering it on water you will have no problem using those on snow , ATB or buggy .... for all those activities you will need way less power then riding on water .... and that will make you want buy another ,,,,, small size kite for high winds ..... and if you want to ride in "no wind" days another one ... like Speed 3 or X19 .....
.... Backcountry snowkiting is not recommended with LEI ... most people use foils .... and when riding they carry another size in backpack in case conditions change ...
.. Also when using LEI on land self launching and landing can create dangerous situation .... Its always better to have someone near by to help you with that ....

Bladerunner - 27-3-2013 at 07:03 AM

You can pop the bladder on a new kite as quick as a used one. Buy on trusted sites from trusted sellers. ASK questions and for pictures. Avoid Fleebay and those sites . If in doubt ask on here about the kite before buying.

I thought the Wainman had structural repairs or something. I agree that it is a good kite worthy of a bladder repair.

If you don't want bladder repair then closed cell is the option.

Repairs and general tinkering is a normal part of this sport. It gets you that bit more intimate with your gear.

erratic winds - 27-3-2013 at 07:29 AM

hey, local to you here....

I fly pretty much only LEI's on land and snow! I appreciate the rigid canopy in our gusty, shifting winds. I have foils too, they just don't get much flight time. If you want to ride land and water, yeah, you're gonna need some sort of a quiver.

I weigh 190 and I am able to go out on a 15m most days with my skill level, on snow and ATB. I have only progressed in the past year to having the skills to handle a big kite in overpowered conditions, but now it's my absolute go-to with our local winds. (I now want a 17 or more to have more fun on those low wind days, when I started, I never would have dreamed I wanted a 17+, I thought they were only for really big heavy guys.)

If I were buying brand new kites for water and snow use, I would be thinking 9m/13m, with another kite to round it out, for whatever days you feel you are missing more of, low wind or high wind, (low wind, probably), so I would round it out with a 17. I would be looking for good prices on a package, or calling a store owner/rep directly, and seeing what sort of deal they want to work, if you are buying two new kites at once you'd better get a deal! I would definitely talk to Anton at Coloradokiteforce about some ozone EDGEs or the Reo. Otherwise I would be looking at Slingshot Rally, PL Escape, Epic...

I'm sorry to hear you had a sour experience buying used, but I think that Wainman just needs a little love and it'd be just back to perfect. The "Skab" bike tire patches that are peel-n-stick can do great on small bladder punctures! If it's a leaky valve, that's not a terrible repair, don't be too worried, you can do it yourself. I have bought my entire quiver used and have been very happy with 80% of the purchases off the bat, and 100% of the purchases after a little work on em.

Drop me a line anytime I would love to help another local, I'm planning on riding Dillon friday, want to meet up?

Do you know which bladder is leaking on the Wainman? Main or strut? Have you pumped it up and timed it to deflate?

yeti - 27-3-2013 at 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bladerunner
You can pop the bladder on a new kite as quick as a used one. Buy on trusted sites from trusted sellers. ASK questions and for pictures.

I was poking around on ebay last night looking at some used stuff. There are ones that look like someone's just selling them because they're not used, but sometimes they are 2008 or older. How old is too old? Sounds like designs have still been steadily every year.

Others kites I see are '11 or '12 but sometimes have repairs done on the leading edge or sail. If the repairs look professionally made is it worth considering those? Places like ebay at least show you a seller's rating, so someone must be happy.

What should I avoid in terms of repairs or age, and is there any general idea of what you should have to pay?

yeti - 27-3-2013 at 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by erratic winds
Drop me a line anytime I would love to help another local, I'm planning on riding Dillon friday, want to meet up?

Do you know which bladder is leaking on the Wainman? Main or strut? Have you pumped it up and timed it to deflate?

I'll send you a u2u with some Q&A

hickupper - 27-3-2013 at 10:42 AM

I will chime in a bit as I have 1 year under my harness and it sounds as though you maybe in the same situation I was/am in.

All I have around me is open land, water and lots of wind. I picked up a 4m scout to help get me trained and for teaching others who are interested. I picked up a very used 8m LEI that I will use on water and land on higher wind days. I just recently picked up a gem of a 12m LEI that pulls like a SOB that will be my low wind land kite and medium wind water kite. I also have a 13m Peter Lynn Bomba (twinskin) that I have yet to become friends with, so I will skip over any comments on it.

I find that I have a whole in the top and bottom end of my quiver, I would like a 6m Foil for the days when the wind is to strong on land and something in the 19 twin skin for when the wind is to light for land or water. My thoughts are that anything in the water where an 8 is too big will be too rough for me so no need for a water kite on the lower end. sd

I like the LEI for water as it gives me a lot of time to practice launching without worrying about the kite getting soaked with water or deflating. I was concerned about having an LEI on land due to smashing it nose first into the ground and popping the bladder (tomahawk), but if you are not skilled enough to keep the kite from doing this (occasional accidents aside) you should not be flying a big kite on ski's or board.

I like the foil for the flop and fly ability where I want to get out for a short run and just fly. If I am heading out on the water or something a bit longer, then I am ok with the extra effort of pumping up and running lines etc....

In short, for me my quiver would be 4m trainer, 6m foil, 8 & 12m LEI and a large Twin skin....that covers me for all my weather and land types.... This will most likely change in the future as I lean towards one area of the sport, but for now, I am just trying it all. After reading Erratic winds post... maybe a 9/13 combo will be my next quiver upgrade...

3shot - 27-3-2013 at 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by abkayak
the only way to scratch that itch is buy everything

Dude!!! Those suggestions are what's getting me deeper in the doghouse with Wifey!!!!

I'm beginning to think some here get a rise out of seing us noobs get put on $$ restriction LOLOLOL

:smilegrin:

yeti - 27-3-2013 at 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by 3shot

Quote:

Originally posted by abkayak
the only way to scratch that itch is buy everything

Dude!!! Those suggestions are what's getting me deeper in the doghouse with Wifey!!!!

I'm beginning to think some here get a rise out of seing us noobs get put on $$ restriction LOLOLOL

:smilegrin:

Some might say the best advice is to buy all kinds of equipment before you get married... :yes:

Thanks to everyone for all the input so far. Thinking I need to find at least two kites a few meters apart. And sort of convinced now that used is the way to go, as long as I can figure out where and what to shop for.

yeti - 27-3-2013 at 10:15 PM

Alright so I've been looking around for places that seem to sell trustworthy gear.

Can anyone help suggest some reputable places. Do most people go to online dealers? Ebay?

I've seen sites like realwatersports.com and kiteboarding.com who list used kites and other stuff. I'd like to get something soon, so any tips will be appreciated!

bigE123 - 28-3-2013 at 02:17 AM

If you use Ebay make sure you do your homework and spend some time watching sales to get an idea of price / quality, some go for silly prices whereas others you can get a deal by bidding late. I bought my 1.8m rage for high winds and for my boys in lighter winds from ebay and the kite is still nice and crisp.
Narrow your search down to a couple of models, then start searching.
Look out for deals, I've just got a new 6.5m Blade V at 50% discount which was on an on-line store 24hr sale, nothing advertised on the site but a post on a forum gave the code.
Most kite forums have "for sale" sections, don't be afraid to ask questions and make an offer on the asking price.
If you find a kite on an on-line store search for voucher codes, some do a 10% discount just for putting a "like" on facebook.

Bladerunner - 28-3-2013 at 06:46 AM

Search for a local forum to your area.
Watch this forum + once you have a clue of what you want post a wanted ad' on here.

Ebay sellers run the whole game. If you see something on there discuss it on here before bidding to know the right questions to ask.

bobalooie57 - 28-3-2013 at 09:08 AM

The for sale section on this forum has a good seller list, and most members here, in my experience, would rather get poked in the eye than make a bad sale, especially to a new comer. Most members here want you to learn safely, and have a good experience, so that you will in turn pass it on. If you can get with some members that are local to you, you will likely be able to try their gear, which will aid in finding what will work best for you. Welcome to the forum, and good luck with your search.

yeti - 28-3-2013 at 09:15 PM

This one sounds alright. Not sure if I can figure out the year. 2008 or 2009 maybe from the color? I have read 2010s are to be avoided.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/kite-boarding-best-waroo-7-meter-/28...
I think that would work for me in high wind.

I was also in contact with the seller of these ones and maybe could get a little better price depending...
http://www.realwatersports.com/used-2012-best-gp-7m
http://www.realwatersports.com/used-2012-liquid-force-envy-7...
Either of those any good.

As for low wind, any reason to avoid things like this:
http://www.realwatersports.com/used-2011-slingshot-fuel-13-m
http://www.realwatersports.com/used-liquid-2010-havoc-14-m-1...
I'm probably going to be pointed to the for sale section on this forum to get a better deal... but I'm just working on my shopping skills at this point. Feedback welcome.

Noticed this... Seems like an ok asking price, but would probably should wait and find a bigger kite
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2007-Naish-Boxer-Kite-Kitesurfing-12...

yeti - 28-3-2013 at 09:38 PM

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Liquid-Force-Kitesurfing-Kite-HiFi-1...
Wonder about the condition of the bladders. A full replacement set is apparently included. Are those kites worth having? Seems surprisingly cheap.

yeti - 28-3-2013 at 10:18 PM

And to top it all off for the night I'm seeing quite a few new 09 and 11 fuels for good discounts in different places. 5m and 6m... Are those something that could stand in for the same sort of power as a 7m bow kite, or is it just that they don't depower as much

erratic winds - 29-3-2013 at 10:06 AM

Question-If you are not dead-set on water this summer, can you wait to buy? I would not be making any purchases right now for snow use, I believe there is only a week or two left in our season at easy accessible spots. If you got a sled the season can last 4 more weeks, but summer is fast approaching.

FUELs are great kites, but the prevalent C shape of the kite reduces depow and useable wind range to have more explosive power. (They are such great kites, but not for a beginner!). If you are wanting slingshot, look at Rally, Key, and 2011 Octane. All super friendly kites. The 2008-2010 slingshot REV's are great kites, I personally fly two of them in my quiver.

I would not buy anything older than 2008 regardless of condition. 2006-7 safety systems improved, by 2008 they were much better than previous years.

For "low" wind, that's going to be more about board & kite combo, not just kite or board. For "low" colorado wind for water riding, you should look for 15-17, a 12-13 won't be enough. You'll need a large board for water, like a flydoor, (or eventually raceboard) to get the most low wind performance.