Power Kite Forum

New Kite Help

Cmguy1267 - 7-2-2013 at 12:23 AM

Hey guys/gals,

I'm new to the forum and I have a question about a new kite I want. I've flown the 2.5 prism kite for a bit and its a blast but I want to step it up. I was thinking of a 3.0 or 3.5 meter trainer. There's a few out there I was looking at and they won't break the bank either. Any suggestions on the size? I live near the beach in northern California So I always have the winds which is a plus. I'm also a big guy. 6' 230lbs and am fit for my age. Will the 3.5 be ok for dragging me around and intro to buggying and or land boarding? or is it too big? I can handle the 2.5 no problem. Been flying it for about a year now. Just want to upgrade. Thanks guys/gals!!

bourgeois.jason - 7-2-2013 at 01:16 AM

Thanks for joining the forum and for asking advice. You'll find that the members of this forum are very happy to help.

When I did a search for "2.5 prism kite", I see a two line foil. If that is correct, here is my advice.

If you have been flying a 2.5 meter two line kite for a year, I recommend you get at least a 3.5 meter or bigger four line kite. It all depends on the winds you will be flying it in. With a 3.5m, you will get dragged in the sand in about 10 mph winds. You can probably do some jumping with it in 15 mph, but I'm not sure. My first power kite was a 4.9 meter four line kite. I probably weighed 190 lbs at the time. If the 2.5m drags you in the sand, you can probably use it to get the buggy rolling. I recommend using a kite that just gets the buggy rolling until you get the hang of steering the kite and the buggy at the same time. You can then move up in size.

I have been flying power kites for about 8 years now, but I am very inexperience compared to some of the guys here. They will give you much better advice. If they do, please disregard mine. :)

-Jason

John Holgate - 7-2-2013 at 04:17 AM

Quote:

I was thinking of a 3.0 or 3.5 meter trainer.


Sounds pretty good to me. If it's a 2.5m prism snapshot then you can expect a hell of a lot more pull out of a 3m power kite. I'd be looking at a Flexifoil rage, Peter Lynn Hornet, HQ Beamer, Ozone Octane, Zebra Z1, PKD buster soulfly - any of them are good. Forget jumping with a 3m kite - eventually it will hurt. A 3m should be good in the buggy from about 15mph or so.

I don't regard any of my 3m kites as 'trainer' kites. In 20-25 knots there doesn't feel anything 'trainer' about them!

beachrights - 7-2-2013 at 05:53 AM

Let's open this can of Worms on definition of "Trainer Kite"

To me, a trainer kite is a kite that has characteristics and structure of a "real" kite. Using that word real for lack of a better one! The trainer kite should allow the user to migrate towards the real kite and give the student a "feel" for the way kites fly and handle.

A trainer kite should NOT be large/strong enough to:jump [God no!] skud for long distances or basically have enough ability to hurt the flyer.

Saying a 3m kite will be a "good size" is too broad of a statement. If you were to put up a 3m on my flying beach and have no training you would end up Supermanning or hurting someone else. Why? The winds.

A trainer kite should be based on the wind speeds, characteristics [constant/gusty] weight of flyer and overall ability in this sport. "Size does matter!!"

As John said "I don't regard any of my 3m kites as "trainer" kites. :thumbup:

Cmguy gave some needed info: flies on beach- 2 years with the Prism, weight and he states his confidence in his ability to handle the 2.5m. He also has that respect aspect from flying for a year. The only downfall is flight time on a 4 liner.

I think you are past the "Trainer kite" due to the above. You just need the 4 line skills to get your "flight card" With that said I say go for a Beamer 3m. Good stable kite- user friendly.

My rant above was more for beginner fliers who have little to no experience.

pongnut - 7-2-2013 at 07:45 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by John Holgate
Quote:

I was thinking of a 3.0 or 3.5 meter trainer.


Sounds pretty good to me. If it's a 2.5m prism snapshot then you can expect a hell of a lot more pull out of a 3m power kite. I'd be looking at a Flexifoil rage, Peter Lynn Hornet, HQ Beamer, Ozone Octane, Zebra Z1, PKD buster soulfly - any of them are good. Forget jumping with a 3m kite - eventually it will hurt. A 3m should be good in the buggy from about 15mph or so.

I don't regard any of my 3m kites as 'trainer' kites. In 20-25 knots there doesn't feel anything 'trainer' about them!


What John said, do a little shopping within the brands that John suggests and let us know what tempts ya...

Oh, and a BIG welcome to PKF, where you will be treated with "tuff love" - the guys here will be brutally honest, but that’s because they are genuinely concerned for your safety first.

Like golfing w/one club..

skimtwashington - 7-2-2013 at 08:11 AM

It's common for a newer person to think in that they can maybe get just one kite..the right kite...and do lots of stuff.

This may not be your thinking(?).... but a reminder..... It' not merely a case of 'steppin up'. Unless you have the same wind all the time(no one does)..you will be limited. Although you do need to step up from a Prism 2-line if that's what you're using...?

But if you want to get started with a first proper kite for average winds(12-15 mph- lets say-{different everywhere and season to season}) to scud,buggy... the suggestions here are good- and meant as 'starter'-not starter kite- but starter to a quiver...and a kite with power for winds in the teens(average or middle range) to give real pull.


Also be safe and understand the danger of the sport.

Yes, concerned for your safety first-if not that they don't want you to screw up, get hurt, and ruin it for the rest when the authorities ban us all..!:P

welcome!:singing:Good luck.:roll:

joedy - 7-2-2013 at 08:31 AM

The Prism Tensor has a nice package that converts from bars to handles.

The HQ Hydra is a LOT of fun and can drag you pretty easily in 15 knots. If you're careful about the wind direction, doing body drags in the water is a hoot. You'll find that when the beach is too crowded to fly, a HQ Hydra will let you fly in the shallow waters away from people.

-joedy

abkayak - 7-2-2013 at 09:51 AM

welcome....u need lots of kites.....a 3-3.5 would be great fun now IMO.

Cmguy1267 - 7-2-2013 at 11:06 AM

Thanks for all the info guys. It really helps. I do understand about wind and the dangers of them. And when I say trainer kite, I only refer to the 3 and 4 line bar kites with the safety line. As I'm used to a 2 line handle not a 4 line bar. I'm definantly going to be looking at the 4 liners in the 3 to 3.5 meter range like the suggestions you guys gave me. I'll be posting what I end up with this weekend and some flight shots. Thanks guys. I'm glad to hear the honest truth. That's what keeps me from supermaning myself to the hospital!!!!

awindofchange - 7-2-2013 at 12:08 PM

I would definitely go for a 4 line kite, the dual line kites are fun for a bit, but they can be a real pain when you start getting into sizes over 2 meter. The problem is that bigger sizes start to have more problems getting them to flip around to relaunch after crashes and it is also much harder to get them back on the ground, you are almost required to have a helper. Setting up a 3 or 4 meter two line kite by yourself can be very difficult and starts to get rather dangerous depending on the wind conditions.

Another thing to remember is that the two line "trainers" are usually very low aspect ratio kites that are fatter. These characteristics allow the trainer to be rock solid in the air, inflate almost instantly, nearly never luff or deflate and have a very narrow wind window. They also don't provide much speed and in kites, more speed = more power. :)

The quad line kites are designed a little more intense and geared towards the more serious power kite flyer, because of the ability to control angle of attack during flight, 4 line power kites are usually designed with a lot more power output per size, fly faster through the window due to a more refined airfoil shape and are a bit higher aspect ratio. The real advantage comes with the 4 lines as you now have the ability to launch and land by yourself easily, plus the added control with spin turns (brake turns etc...). Reverse launches are also possible to do and the safety systems (kite killers) is much more efficient.

The best thing about 4 line kites is that even if you do end up with a smaller size - say 1.5m or 2m, they are still useable buggy or boarding engines for higher winds so you don't have to worry about spending money on a smaller kite and tossing it in a closet somewhere after you have it mastered (like what happens to most trainers).

The advice above on models is spot on, look for one that is from a major manufacturer so you have construction durability and support. Peter Lynn, Ozone, Flexifoil, HQ, Prism, PKD - all great kites at very affordable prices and will work excellent for you.

John Holgate - 7-2-2013 at 01:12 PM

Quote:

The best thing about 4 line kites is that even if you do end up with a smaller size - say 1.5m or 2m, they are still useable buggy or boarding engines for higher winds so you don't have to worry about spending money on a smaller kite and tossing it in a closet somewhere after you have it mastered (like what happens to most trainers).


Very true. I have an Imp Quattro 1.5m which often gets handed to friends and family for a fly. But recently at our annual Kingston meet we had a couple of really gnarly 25+ gusty days and the little Imp got quite a bit of flight time in the buggy.

Proletariat - 7-2-2013 at 01:30 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by John Holgate
I'd be looking at a Flexifoil rage, Peter Lynn Hornet, HQ Beamer, Ozone Octane, Zebra Z1, PKD buster soulfly - any of them are good. Forget jumping with a 3m kite - eventually it will hurt


I couldn't agree more. Due to your size, though, I'd suggest a 4m. I'm sure you've had your hands full with the prism at times, so you're probably going to learn fast with a 4line and not be terrified when it starts to pull.

Agreed, don't jump. They just pick you up and drop you at that size -- no float (I'm experienced in the dropping... :))

Agreed on the brands. Any of those are perfect. The Pansh equivalent is the Flux, if you're on a super tight budget. Otherwise, skip it. Those that John mentioned are WAY better quality.

Also, I'm not sure if you've used kite killers before but if not, you should get some. You can really push the envelope when you use kite killers and if you get nervous, just let go. They're awesome.

Last, one thing I did wrong when building my quiver is that I didn't plan ahead much. If you're going to go buggying, plan on using fixed bridle 4 line kites at first and try to cover a wide wind range as you acquire more kites. For instance, if you have a 2.5m and a 4.0m, the next one should be about 6.0m, then 8.0m, etc. Of course, all of this depends on the wind range of the kites, so just make sure all wind speeds are covered eventually. Personally, I think a 2.5 and 3.0 are too close together, and I actually board with my 1.7m 2-line kite when the wind is whipping.

Man, I need to stop writing novels. I'm excited for you and your new kite! It's loads of fun. Let us know how it goes, eh?

Bladerunner - 7-2-2013 at 04:23 PM

If you are going 4 line fixed bridle stick with handles. You get far better control over the kite with them. Bars work best on depower kites.

As folks have mentioned this kite will become your high wind engine as your quiver grows. Buy a quality one and you may never sell it. If you do, quality kites resell easy. Checking on here before making your final purchase may save you some greif?

If money is an issue consider buying used. Kites drop in value greatly as soon as they leave the store. Budget for at least a 3 kite quiver as you grow. Low , average and the high wind kite that you are looking for now.

There is a pretty active group in Nor'Cal. Pop a message off to Dino at Dakitez for local motion.

Cmguy1267 - 8-2-2013 at 05:42 PM

Hey guys/gals,

I ended up getting an Advance Killer 4 meter 4 line De power kite. It's an air foil so ill be similar in flight to the prism. With the exception of the bar of course. None of the 3 meters were 4 lines and I got a great deal after discussing with the shop guy for an hour all the things you all told me about. he agreed with everything. He knows the wind conditions and found that this would be good to start with. Of course safety will be my number one and I'll never fly it if it's even remotely too powerful of wind. What's your guy's thought she?

Bladerunner - 8-2-2013 at 06:15 PM

I can't see the model " killer " on their website ?

Looks like they are inflatables? You say yours is a depower foil?

While folks do use inflatables for buggy and board they don't usually learn on them ? A 4m LEI or depower foil won't power you until the wind is very, very strong ?

MDK - 8-2-2013 at 06:42 PM

welcome! lots of great people here! with a lot of wisdom. Start small and work your way up, you will use them all, when you get a bug you may reach for the larger ones more often on the beach and the smaller ones if you bug on a dry lake bed.
I suggest the PKD Buster 3.3 pkdkitesusa.com, quality kite and wont break the bank. here I am buggying with the 3.3 Buster at Alvord. http://youtu.be/W-EAShq20zo

Proletariat - 8-2-2013 at 09:52 PM

Link to a copy of the Advance Killer manual:

http://www.kiteworld.ru/images/kiteinfo/2008/january08/killer_manual.pdf

So... I think jumping from a 2 line fixed bridle trainer to a 4m depower might be a mistake. Bladerunner is exactly right in that your wind speed will need to be so high that learning could be dangerous. For reference, most people on here told me to buy a 10m depower foil when I was making the switch, and I had been flying fixed bridle 4 line kites for over a year.

I noticed that the manual says that the kite range is 5 knots to 28 knots, but I don't buy it.

Also, did you buy a harness, spreader bar and a leash? You can't fly a depower kite without these things, and I didn't see you mention them.

All that being said, if you have the gear, maybe have some local guidance and practice VERY careful consideration of the setup, you may be able to pull it off and be very happy.

Here are just a few of the things you should know about depowers:
1- know the difference between sheeting out (depower) and sheeting in (power).

2- know your kite's setup inside and out. Do NOT mix up the front and back lines -- I did this when I first started and I snapped a bridle. Was lucky I didn't get more hurt.

3- It looks like the first safety release on your bar is a red slider that is right above your chicken loop. You release this by sliding it away from you. Know exactly how this works and make sure you practice, practice, practice it in very low winds. You'll use it a lot at first.

4- Second safety release is often a leash release that cuts the kite loose entirely. Know how this works, also. You probably won't practice these releases since you'd be chasing your kite, but you need to know.

5- Know how to launch / land. Don't launch powered up, and don't hot launch in the middle of the window. Double and triple check your setup before launching. A fully powered kite stuck in power mode could really hurt you (see #3 and 4).

5.5 - Related to #5, know how to use the trim straps, this is how you trim the kite to default to more power (sheeting in) or less power (sheeting out).

6- Wear a helmet and other protective gear. Seriously.

I'm sure I'm missing something, but those are the big things I think you know to be safe. There are some great guides on here and the vets on here will help you get acquainted with the new gear.

Out of curiosity, what store did you buy it from? I couldn't find an Advance Killer anywhere.

Have fun and be safe!

Cmguy1267 - 9-2-2013 at 12:51 AM

It is a parafoil. Its the smallest size for that style of killer kite. I am aware of the powering out and powering in. Also very familiar with the setup of the kite. I literally spent an hour with the shop guy setting it up and bReaking it down, on top of taking pictures on my phone just in case. I also practiced both of the release systems, the leash and the slide away on the main kite. Yes, I do have a harness and spreader bar, both fit at the shop and tested there as well. I will have to learn the depower or "trim straps" but have them at a lower setting to start with. I'll just be flying the kite and won't even begin to think about sliding or boarding for awhile. Safety is always my number one. I look forward to learning everything about the kite and handling. Luckily I always bring my other kites, so if I do feel uncomfortable, I'll switch to my smaller prisms. On a plus side, my father loves kites as well, so he always goes with me so I'm never alone. I can't wait to try it this weekend , assuming the weather is nice. I'll post pics if I fly!!!

Cmguy1267 - 9-2-2013 at 12:52 AM

I bought it at live2kite.com. Well, thier retail store here on NorCal anyways. Most likely why its not on thier site.

Proletariat - 9-2-2013 at 01:55 PM

Awesome man. Sounds like you have it well in hand. Let us know how it goes!

John Holgate - 9-2-2013 at 03:11 PM

Quote:

A 4m LEI or depower foil won't power you until the wind is very, very strong ?


I would have thought that too, but at Kingston - running into a cross onshore wind at 13-14 knots or so, I was working the living daylights out of a 5m Frenzy and in front of me, Rob had an Airush DNA 4m LEI....just parked in the window and cruising off into the distance.... it was a far more impressive kite in it's performance than the 5m Frenzy was. I've never flown an LEI, but after witnessing that....I'm keen to try one :smilegrin:

SFKITER - 12-2-2013 at 10:52 AM

What part of Nor Cal ?

erratic winds - 12-2-2013 at 11:35 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by John Holgate
I would have thought that too, but at Kingston - running into a cross onshore wind at 13-14 knots or so, I was working the living daylights out of a 5m Frenzy and in front of me, Rob had an Airush DNA 4m LEI....just parked in the window and cruising off into the distance.... it was a far more impressive kite in it's performance than the 5m Frenzy was. I've never flown an LEI, but after witnessing that....I'm keen to try one :smilegrin:


These two kites have quite different AR's, that might explain the performance differences

awindofchange - 12-2-2013 at 11:44 AM

The 5m Frenzy is an awesome ultra high wind machine, I don't bother getting mine out unless the winds are well into the 25+ mph range.

Bladerunner - 12-2-2013 at 05:56 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Proletariat
Link to a copy of the Advance Killer manual:

http://www.kiteworld.ru/images/kiteinfo/2008/january08/killer_manual.pdf

I noticed that the manual says that the kite range is 5 knots to 28 knots, but I don't buy it.


Have fun and be safe!



Yes very odd wind rating ?

It may well fly at 5kts but you will have to keep it moving ? It will need twice that to start to produce anything like power.
The top end of 25kts seems a litte low for such a small foil?

This is a new kite to me . I am just going on general depower foil performance. Please give us a review of this kite once you get familiar with it !