Power Kite Forum

Kite Line lengths.... Pros and Cons

ikemiester - 31-1-2013 at 01:43 PM

I would like to know what everyone flies and why. I personally am usually right around 25m, but generally seem to like longer lines as well.

What are the upwind pros cons?
What are the lift pros/cons?
What are the handling pros/cons?
What is your "perfect balance?"

(I know some of these answers, but I want to know others think and make somewhat of a knowledge base for those deciding on what size lines to get.)

BeamerBob - 31-1-2013 at 01:57 PM

Short lines scare me in the buggy. Some extra length on the lines means if the kite gets turned around headed behind me while going fast, I have more time to correct the direction of the kite. Short lines shorten the arc the kite flies in and it can be behind me much faster. I seem to always end up with 20m lines and feel comfortable with them. I've ended up with some 13m lines and they are too short for larger kites due to the small wind window. They make small kites too fast around the window in the winds we fly them in. Going with 30m lines would add security, but at the expense of wind resistance on the lines. I feel that 20-25m lines are ideal, at least for what I do.

Bladerunner - 31-1-2013 at 05:56 PM

voted medium even though I fly on 20 , 23 and 25m lines.

I keep a short 15m set + a set of 3m extensions for mixing it up.

Bob has all the experience with high winds but I have use 10m lines on my 2.5 in 25=mph winds and prefered it over long lines. I need to keep my lines to 20 - 23m to fit my tiny park.

Feyd - 31-1-2013 at 06:06 PM

30m lines for me. I think 25-30 is the sweet spot for my purposes.

Bladerunner - 31-1-2013 at 06:23 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Feyd
30m lines for me. I think 25-30 is the sweet spot for my purposes.


Location certianly plays into it. 30m are great if you have space!

BeamerBob - 31-1-2013 at 06:42 PM

I've flown on 10-12 foot lines at the sodfarm a few years ago and it was a blast in 20+ mph winds. Location does play into it for sure.

SFKITER - 31-1-2013 at 10:54 PM

Wow I didnt know the length of the lines played a difference. Does it play a difference for someone who is just Static flying or is it only something to take a look at for people in buggys and ATBs?

BeamerBob - 31-1-2013 at 11:06 PM

When static flying, I like long lines because it makes the pass through the power zone longer.

SFKITER - 31-1-2013 at 11:57 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BeamerBob
When static flying, I like long lines because it makes the pass through the power zone longer.


Can you tell me the differences in each of the line lengths im really interested. Like a break down on what each line length represents when you are flying your kite. And im talking about Static flying for now though I dont have a buggy so if their is a difference in static flying line lengths please tell me, trying to collect a lot of info here.

SFKITER - 31-1-2013 at 11:57 PM

SFKITER - 31-1-2013 at 11:57 PM

SFKITER - 31-1-2013 at 11:57 PM

SFKITER - 31-1-2013 at 11:57 PM

SFKITER - 31-1-2013 at 11:59 PM

Sorry....... didnt mean to spam post that my computer froze for a second so I was clicking like crazy wasnt sure if my post posted....... sorry .....

bigkid - 1-2-2013 at 12:53 AM

I am going to throw a wrench into the question.
Have you flown a kite on short lines and then long lines at the same time same place same kite?
If you have not, then I would suggest you try it out. Everyone here can say what why where how and the results will all be different. When you say long lines, what do you call long? Is 19m short? Is 31m long? The difference in that small of a scope is so hard to gauge that unless you are out with precise measurements it will be almost impossible to tell. You would need to have another person helping with times, speed, distance, etc. If you go much shorter and quite a bit longer you will see the difference a bit better. You would need to use the same type of line and different lengths. If you add 2 sets the larks head in the middle of the line will create a bit more drag than a 1 piece line set.

If you come out to Sunset in a couple of weeks you can try out the same kite on almost any length from 10 feet to 265 feet.

Basically, the shorter the lines the shorter your reaction time to use the kite. The longer the lines the longer the time to react. The kite will move through the window a bit faster on shorter lines because the lines have no drag. On long lines there is a bit of drag with the more line that is used.Area is a key factor in length. and wind is another factor. If you have a 5m kite on 30m lines and you cant buggy, and your next kite is an 8m on 30m lines which would be tooooo much. I would double the line length of the 5m and have a good ride. or shorten up the 8m by more than 2/3rds.
With my testing the amount of power with short/long lines is not that much different. It seams quite a bit different due to the quickness of the short lines, but in using a weight scale on the lines of both long and short there wasn't any more than 1 to 2 lbs difference in pull. And I would say that was due to the drag of the 200' plus lines.
*EDIT* So the short (10m) lines have a tad bit more power than the long (200" +) lines by 1 to 2lbs.
It was late when I got to this part, it should have said, LONGER LINES CREATE A TAD BIT MORE POWER THAN THE SHORT LINES by a pound or 2.

I personally like to use long lines, and short lines to. Depends on wind speed, space, buggy, wind direction, my mood, size of kite, and the biggest determining factor is whether I have the lines with me. Mostly loooooong lines.

Suds after thuds - 1-2-2013 at 01:10 AM

I've never experimented with the extensions that came with the charger and montana vi,
feeling inspired, but then again
when I go out I like to get moving
as fast or as soon as I can.
unwind, unroll,and out
and from what I've gathered from reading here
longer lines help you reach for the breath of wind
that's blowing higher up.
so my experiment will probably wait
for day with frustrating wind,
hoping that the extensions
will make up for the lack of blow

B-Roc - 1-2-2013 at 05:48 AM

I fly whatever comes with the kite. I have made my own linesets and have sets from 12 - 30m but I'm more likely to change kites than lines to suit the conditions. Call me lazy but I just use the set that comes with the kite until it wears out and then I generally replace it with an identical set.

Kamikuza - 1-2-2013 at 07:28 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by bigkid
Have you flown a kite on short lines and then long lines at the same time same place same kite?

Yeah, I have. Was flying the Speed3 21 on their 21m lines plus 6m extensions... broke something on that bar (can't remember now) so I swapped it for the bar off the 15 - back to 21m lines.

The differences...
One power stroke to get on a plane and parS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-n'ride with the 27m lines. Needed two with the 21m lines cos of the...
Noticeably shorter power stroke. Not like WTF more like hmm ok... probably related to how lo-ooong the S3-21 is. The kite is down then needs redirecting sooner and that also shortens the stroke.
Slight increase in turning and response speed of course, but IMHO overall, 21m lines are not an improvement over 27m lines.

Someone on here said 25m lines on the S3-21 are the sweet spot... I'm eventually going to make 4m extensions and try it out. I reckon 21m lines are almost perfect on the 15...

I think different sized kites would have their own sweet spot length too - I reckon the XB16 needs a few meters more, the 13 is about right, maybe a meter shorter (when the conditions are good) and the 10 half a meter less again.

All in all, I can't be bothered meddling that much - I usually just go for as much bottom end as I can... so longest lines :ticking:

And finally - fnar fnar! nice to see y'all using the correct measurement and none of this foot or yard nonsense :lol:

bigkid - 1-2-2013 at 09:03 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kamikuza
And finally - fnar fnar! nice to see y'all using the correct measurement and none of this foot or yard nonsense :lol:


It is funny how this is a sore spot with most kite flyers. Seems that what ever measurement you use, it is not the right one.:puzzled:
If I get an order for a line set in feet, or meters, I look on the chart and see what they get. Some line companies use feet and some use meters, and a few of them refuse to use meters and a few refuse to use feet. Either way, I have to use the chart.
Anyone want to buy a 30.48m, line set? :lol:
How about a 65.6167979 feet line set? :lol:

I think there should be only 2 lengths, Short and Long, then the stories will take on a completely new meaning, kind of like fishing...:wee:

BeamerBob - 1-2-2013 at 09:51 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SFKITER
Quote:
Originally posted by BeamerBob
When static flying, I like long lines because it makes the pass through the power zone longer.


Can you tell me the differences in each of the line lengths im really interested. Like a break down on what each line length represents when you are flying your kite. And im talking about Static flying for now though I dont have a buggy so if their is a difference in static flying line lengths please tell me, trying to collect a lot of info here.


It's not like each one is vastly different than another. Lines always seem too long, too short, or just right. Bigger kites need longer lines so they have enough room to move around in the sky. Smaller kites move really fast so the lines need to be long enough for a power stroke instead of a "bang, its at the edge again". You can use short lines on an overpowered small kite to diminish that power stroke by being able to get the kite to the edge really quickly to minimize time in the power zone.

All that being said, I'd much more quickly change kites than lines to adjust for more or less power. I find what works for a kite size and then don't mess with it ever again. That also implies that I experiment and change linesets often which is not the case. Recently, I went to the Friday nigh kite club here and there was no wind so I got out all my vapors and did some lineset swapping which was actually making the lines longer on each one of them and putting the 13m size in storage. I'm sure I'll not take the lines off of them again now.

bigkid - 1-2-2013 at 02:10 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BeamerBob
....and putting the 13m size in storage. I'm sure I'll not take the lines off of them again now.


I agree.....
The only time I use short lines is when I buggy or board where the room just wont let it happen. A NPW on handles is the best.

All kites that are made and sold with a line set and handles, are designed to the kites most optimum potential with the set of lines they came with. Each kite company designs a kite with a specific line set up for a reason.
If you buy a kite that is KO, they are still designed with a specific line length in mind.
We get the itch to fiddle with the nature of things and make changes, for most of the time, the wrong way. We customize a kite to fit our need or want, and sometimes we succeed. I know that I don't have all the knowledge about kites in my head, so I have to ask those that do. I have talked to a few designers at PL and PKD, (and a couple of other companies), and the response was almost word for word. "That kite was designed to be flown with xxm lines", "no wonder you are having problems". I have to laugh at them at times, after I get the kite, I can do anything I want. Right or wrong, it's my kite.....So what if I want to put a 50 inch LCD TV in a Corvette...... Not that I would, but you get the point, right?

The only thing that you would get out of different line lengths when static flying is that it gives you something else to do while you think about getting a buggy. Something to do because you get board just standing there flying back and forth, back and forth, back and forth, back and forth, back and forth, back and forth, back and forth, back and forth.......
I need to get out and do a bit of buggying.

BeamerBob - 1-2-2013 at 02:34 PM

I never thought about the kites being designed with a particular line length in mind. I wonder how to find that out? I'm content with the Phantom IIs with extensions for the 12m and standard lines with the 9 and 6. Montanas come with their linesets so I figure they got it right. Vapors have my lines on and I wonder if I'm matched up with the design parameters.

bigkid - 1-2-2013 at 03:11 PM

Bobby, All you have to do is ask. Give PL a call and ask the question. Brian may know the answer, if not he could find out.
(if you are unable to find out, I can let you know what I found):lol:

When I told Michael at PKD that I was flying the 12.5m Century on 200 foot (60.96m) he laughed and asked how it flew. I told him I was still waiting for it to land and would get back to him. He laughed again and asked how much extra brake line I had to add. I told him about 13 inches, and he asked if I had it on video and if I would send him a copy. Long story made short, he responded back and said the Century was designed with much shorter lines than I was using, but he was very pleased with the performance of the Century on those lines. It behaved better than all the others they have tested, others being from other manufacturers.

Bladerunner - 1-2-2013 at 04:55 PM

Like others suggets changing up lines isn't near as effective as changing up kites. That said, you can get a bit more flying in if you only have one kite but extra line and lots of time.

If you use long lines in low wind you have the advantage of a larger window to create apparent wind. You can also sometimes find better wind up high on those low wind days. The trade off is slow reaction.
If you use VERY short lines in very strong wind your kite will spend less time in the power zone and hit the edge + lowest power much faster. With the fast reponse time you can get it out of the power faster. You can fly FB and NPW straight off of the bridle if you choose.

So YES , different line lengths will give you differing experience flying static . A good thing to play with if you are stuck with just one kite . Most kites and peoples style have their sweet length.

Gunnar explained when and why to use the extensions that come with the Nav' bar on a Charger video back when...

I think short lines is one of the things that Stephan ( and other Euro's ) uses to handle such large kites in such high winds ? That and brute force. :wee:

Long Lines are cool...

crazyherb - 1-2-2013 at 10:13 PM

I've been getting used to a triple line set on my big 24M Phanny.... (2x25M+20M) so 70M lines.

I love being able to grab "the air up there"
...but here's the rub....
What I really enjoy about the long lines...is that I get at least 10-15 seconds of good pull just on the DOWN STROKE when diving into the window...by then, I'm well into my upwind edge.

I also, think it has a lot to do with the size/type of kite...

I did find a CON though....unrolling the lines is a pain...then, if you mis-launch...your're walking back to de-tangle....30 minutes later...yada yada...

Oh...and longer lines seem to get that much more invisible to drivers....because your so far from your kite....they end up looking at the kite while the run over your lines with you waving your arms like..."Hey!!"...on the other side....arg!!

Handling is a bit slower, but because you have more time (and window) to work with it's not noticeable. I LOVE doing these HUGE loops with nice consistent pull....then you're back in the window to edge right on through all over again.

Once I get my perfect length figured out I think I'm going to have a custom set of lines made....nice and smooth all the way to the kite...instead of links and multi-lines stuck together. Need the on-shore breeze to kick back in...

ROCK ON!

SFKITER - 1-2-2013 at 10:57 PM

wow lots of great info here

bigkid - 2-2-2013 at 08:13 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bladerunner
I think short lines is one of the things that Stephan ( and other Euro's ) uses to handle such large kites in such high winds ?

Stephan was a racer. And all racers use short lines, and big kites. Why?
Because there is NO room for long lines. Look at some of the footage of the races and you will see there is only a few feet between some of the guys. Could you imagine being in a race with everyone flying on 20m or longer line sets, and one guy looses control of his kite and takes out 23 of his competitors? What a nightmare, it would take years to untangle the mess. In racing, short lines are a must. The smaller your presence the easier to get in and out of a problem or pass the guy in front of you. Try rounding a marker with 1 other guy on long lines with out getting tangled. I have seen guys at the beach that were 60 feet away from each other get tied up with their lines. (I think that was a Canadian thing, so that's OK).:lol:

bigkid - 2-2-2013 at 08:26 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by crazyherb
I've been getting used to a triple line set on my big 24M Phanny.... (2x25M+20M) so 70M lines.

I love being able to grab "the air up there"
...but here's the rub....
What I really enjoy about the long lines...is that I get at least 10-15 seconds of good pull just on the DOWN STROKE when diving into the window...by then, I'm well into my upwind edge.

I also, think it has a lot to do with the size/type of kite...

I did find a CON though....unrolling the lines is a pain...then, if you mis-launch...your're walking back to de-tangle....30 minutes later...yada yada...

Oh...and longer lines seem to get that much more invisible to drivers....because your so far from your kite....they end up looking at the kite while the run over your lines with you waving your arms like..."Hey!!"...on the other side....arg!!

Handling is a bit slower, but because you have more time (and window) to work with it's not noticeable. I LOVE doing these HUGE loops with nice consistent pull....then you're back in the window to edge right on through all over again.

Once I get my perfect length figured out I think I'm going to have a custom set of lines made....nice and smooth all the way to the kite...instead of links and multi-lines stuck together. Need the on-shore breeze to kick back in...

ROCK ON!


I've created a monster. :lol:

One thing I have done is tie a 2 foot piece of grid ribbon/surveyors tape to one line 1/3 and 2/3 the way to the kite. Helps to let others know something is there.

sand flea - 2-2-2013 at 08:32 AM

Great topic Ike, hope to see you at SOBB

As a buggier I use 17m, 20m and 25m lines. I like short lines for their precise control of the kite on very high wind days and longer lines in lighter wind for nice long power sweeps.

ikemiester - 2-2-2013 at 05:13 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by sand flea
Great topic Ike, hope to see you at SOBB


Thanks! I will not be in town during that time period... I'll be teaching people how to jump out of planes!:spin::roll::wee::singing:
Wish I could be there with you guys down and throw down some freestyle landboarding.

This thread is an awesome knowledge base! Keep it coming guys!

And as far as my $0.02 I feel like I get more lift with short lines, more hangtime with long ones, I could be quite wrong, but that's how I feel when I put on/take off the 5m extensions for my ion2. Maybe it has something to do with the quick increase of power short lines give that someone was talking about.

csa_deadon - 3-2-2013 at 02:49 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by ikemiester
Quote:
Originally posted by sand flea
Great topic Ike, hope to see you at SOBB


Thanks! I will not be in town during that time period... I'll be teaching people how to jump out of planes!:spin::roll::wee::singing:


You know what they say at every jump center.

It's ok for people to look like ants, but when ants start looking like people you know you're in trouble!

ikemiester - 3-2-2013 at 10:58 AM

:lol:

bigkid - 3-2-2013 at 02:22 PM

Jumping out of a perfectly good aircraft just doesn't set well with me.:puzzled:

ikemiester - 3-2-2013 at 10:23 PM

You get used to it after a few times:Ange09:

SFKITER - 5-2-2013 at 07:47 PM

hmmmm I was flying the Beamer today and really do like how I have a chance to react if the kite starts to drift downward somehow I can let the kite float right back up