Power Kite Forum

Lower wind suggestions

jcisbig - 30-5-2012 at 12:48 PM

Hey All,

Over the last couple years I've been making a slow foray into landboarding. I'm pretty comfortable with it now, able to go both directions, upwind and downwind, and just beginning to play around with some really small jumps. I'm currently using a Twister II 5.6m that I bought from Dakitez a while back, and I'm enjoying it immensely! My issue, however, is that we often have wind speeds of about 6mph to 12mph. This isn't quite enough to get my 220lbs going with the Twister, I need more like 14 or 15 just to get going. My field is flat, large, and has regularly mowed grass. It is inland, so I don't have super consistent wind, but for being inland, it is one of the smoother wind places I've flown...

Anyway, I'm entertaining the possibility of buying a new kite and would appreciate feedback from all of you more experienced landboarders/kiters! I'm looking primarily for a kite that will get me going easily in those lighter winds. I'm also leaning towards wanting a depower kite as well. Also, I'm not made of money, so while a Speed 3 or something might be suggested, I just can't swing that. I do have a Phantom 15m in good condition that I might be willing to sell to help fund this purchase.

As I've looked around, kites like the HQ Apex III or Montana, Ozone Access, or Frenzy have seemed appealing. What do you guys think I'd need considering my weight and 6mph to 14mph being the wind ranges I see most often?

My brother had a Montana 1 12m a few years back that I tried for a day, but it was too slow to really do anything with in the inconsistent winds I was having that day. I feel like I'd need a kite that could be worked a bit and has good turning speed/response.

Bottom Line: What kite(s) would you suggest for landboarding at an inland field where the wind was most often in the 6mph to 15mph range? Emphasis is on getting going as early in that range as possible, without having a huge sluggish kite that won't do well in the inconsistent winds inherent to inland flying.

Thanks in advance for the replies!

Bladerunner - 30-5-2012 at 01:46 PM

I struggle with those winds accept clean at least.

I have been consistantly amazed at what I am able to find for a bottom end on my 18m Phantom. I have tried a lot of kites in this wind range and so far the Phanny has given the most pleasure.

My 13m Phsycho III used to get me going pretty early with a decent range. One kite I regret selling ! They are selling at an affordable price now and then ?

:bigok:

B-Roc - 30-5-2012 at 01:55 PM

Not an apex or an access - their A/R is too low to make them great low wind kites. You wan't something higher aspect like a frenzy, montana, matrix, eskimo or yeti or just about any flysurfer.

I weigh 150# and my 14m gets me going from about 6-11mph. It is slower flying and turning but I like kites like that. You are heavier so you may need a larger kite which means Flysurfer or Matrix (maybe 15m or so). Or you go with a very efficient fixed bridle kite in the 8-10 meter size. Faster, lighter but no depower.

John Holgate - 30-5-2012 at 02:44 PM

You wouldn't be able to jump with one of these, but for grunt in light winds, they take a bit of beating. Relatively cheap and excellent at smoothing out lumpy winds. The Nasa's are becoming one of my favorite light wind engines....

7m Nasa Star 2 video

kitedelight - 30-5-2012 at 02:49 PM

ya, tough one, I would think matrix 15, speed3 15 (needs to be at least mentioned even though it's not likely), psycho4 15, speed2 12/15 SA might be okay (maybe Shaggs can verify the range of his 12 and how the speed2 is for gusts inland winds). Not sure a pulse2 14 would be great cause of it's slower turning.

Drewculous - 30-5-2012 at 02:53 PM

Same boat here buddy, close weight, same conditions... I just fight arcs till they work :lol:

Broc is dead on.. Need high ar! The new montana 14 does ok in low winds, but its a heavy bit of sail... Demo if ya can, see if ya like it... once its able to fly however.... So are you! (tons of pull)

flyjump - 30-5-2012 at 03:43 PM

+1 for 15matriXx and 14 Montana. Good low end and they will both get you jumping

jcisbig - 30-5-2012 at 05:22 PM

So, it sounds like I need to be looking for something larger than 11m or 12m with a high ar for my weight/windrange, yes?

It looks like I'll probably need to find one of these kites used to fit my price range. Can anyone shed some light on which versions of the Montana were really good? As stated above, I've flown a mk 1 montana 12.5m and was really unimpressed with it as it was pretty slow in the turns. Which version did they start to get more nimble?

It's probably out of my price range, but would a 12m Flysurfer Unity do the trick? What about an HQ Neo 2 or 3? Is there an advantage to having a closed cell foil in inconsistent winds to help with luffing and such?

It looks like my options so far are as follows:
- HQ Montana
- HQ Matrix
- Ozone Frenzy
- Flysurfer

I don't have any experience with Gin, what's the general impression of these kites?

My concern with something like a 14m Montana is that it would be pretty sluggish, and in light winds that's not a good thing in my experience.

jcisbig - 30-5-2012 at 05:31 PM

Of course, the other option we haven't discussed yet are FB foils like a Reactor II 8.6m or similar for those low wind days. Any thoughts on this?

Also, as I said above, I've got a 15m Phantom. I haven't really had much success with it in sub 15mph winds, but then again I'm not super experienced. Also, the setup and launching (especially solo) are super hard compared to the foil kites I've flown. I might entertain the idea of a Charger 15m or 19m if it's low end would be better, but I'm kinda frustrated with arcs right now...

jcisbig - 31-5-2012 at 04:37 PM

Bump

shortlineflyer - 31-5-2012 at 04:47 PM

there is the ozone frenzy ultralite
i wish ozone would come out with a ultralite manta

herc - 1-6-2012 at 11:22 AM

light wind solutions, sorted by price:

7 - 10 sqm Nasawing - either NPW9 or Nasastar II (brand new for < 200 euro)

peter lynn twister II 7.7 sqm - around 250 euro new

peter lynn reactor

zebra slope 12.5 sqm (depower !!) around 450 euro

any high performance fixed bridle kite (vapor, zebra z2 / 3, yakuza etc)
these buggy foils are the best light wind kites; but also outright dangerous (think about thermal gusts in the summer - those bigger race kites can beam you up and afterwards drop you down to death.)

a big nasawing in contrast will pull like a tractor, but (almost) never lift you unexpected and agressively.

regarding arc kites: those kites are fantastic above 8-10 knots ( 4-5 m/s ). but arc kites are NOT lightwind kites (especially not in fluctuating low inland winds)

bigkid - 1-6-2012 at 12:25 PM

You are so close to the border you could get with bladerunner and work on the phanny.

I hear a lot about the reactor 8.6 and I dont get it, guess when people speak of low wind you guys are talking about 6 to 9mph? I can buggy with a 5m Sprint with that much wind. Down here low wind is 0 to 4mph, and I would be bugging with a 15m NPW on no lines, or a 13m Century on 100' lines, or 0 to 2mph the 13m century on 160' lines. The wind is much smoother up high.

Most FB's 10m and up will work in 6 to 10mph but the 13 to 16m will have a bit less wind window than the smaller sizes. Get with some guys with the bigger kites and let them show ya what they got. try em out and see if you like them or not. you can try out mine if you want.

B-Roc - 1-6-2012 at 12:37 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by jcisbig
I don't have any experience with Gin, what's the general impression of these kites?


Well, as you can see by my signature, I think they are awesome. Build quality is comparable or superior to any brand you consider to be the best. Safety system is way better than many. Bags (not that you fly them but they are part of the total package) are the best I've ever seen and stand as a testament to the quality of the kite maker.

Downside... not widely distributed in the States so they aren't well flown and aren't well known. That aside, they are easily on par in every way with whatever anyone considers to be the best.

BigMikesKites - 1-6-2012 at 02:42 PM

i've got an 8.6 Reactor that does great on low wind days. Might not be ideal landboarding as it is a buggy kite, but its sweet. Also the 10.8 for ridiculously low winds. Video of a 10.8 in action
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CACs698dRvQ

shaggs2riches - 2-6-2012 at 08:03 AM

I'm not a FB expert of any kind but would think they would be better in that range. Unless you could get a big Silver Arrow you might struggle otherwise. No clue on your conditions and your skill set, but what about a 8/10m Blade???? You could probably find one in great condition and at a better or similar price than a depower. The range might be limited though and it might not like gusty conditions either.

Bladerunner - 2-6-2012 at 08:24 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by B-Roc
Not an apex or an access - their A/R is too low to make them great low wind kites. You wan't something higher aspect like a frenzy, montana, matrix, eskimo or yeti or just about any flysurfer.

I weigh 150# and my 14m gets me going from about 6-11mph. It is slower flying and turning but I like kites like that. You are heavier so you may need a larger kite which means Flysurfer or Matrix (maybe 15m or so). Or you go with a very efficient fixed bridle kite in the 8-10 meter size. Faster, lighter but no depower.


I have ridden with 2 different people that use the 10m Access snowkiting. In both cases I have been very impressed with the kites low end. While it doesn't work below 5 it fits the 6 - 15 you describe ? I am not an Access pilot . Maybe Canuck or Bugeyed will comment ?

jcisbig - 2-6-2012 at 08:41 AM

Something like the Blade might work, but I feel like the larger sizes would be too unusable for the inland-type winds that I have. I'd probably either need to do a large FB with very little lift, like the reactor, or go depower. The more I think about it and the more I hear from you guys, it really sounds like I should be looking at a Montana or Frenzy. What sizes do you think would be good from those ranges? What were good years for those kites and which should I avoid (if I'm buying used)?

Bladerunner - 2-6-2012 at 08:53 AM

I have had the highest lofting of my life on my 10.8 Reactor II ( with a nice floaty landing )! So they CAN lift you. Any kite will.

I really enjoy the kite on a big beach with clean winds but in gusty snowkite situations it has scared me.

thanson2001ok - 2-6-2012 at 09:10 AM

IMHO, buy a depower for now. Safer and more wind range for a rookie. And remember that you will end up building a quiver so don't labor over finding the perfect one kite quiver. It doesn't exist.

I have had the 5m and 7.5m 2005 or 2006 Frenzy's. I still have the 7.5m. I like it but would like it more with an upgrade to the Ozone Megatron Chicken Loop and quick release. With your winds, probably need a 10m, maybe larger. I don't know what older ones than 2005 are like, but I probably wouldn't go older than this.

Post in the wanted section here on PKF and watch Craigslist. I use www.allofcraigs.com to search the entire US at once. There seem to be a lot of these kites that pop up if you are patient. Buying here, though, will typically get you the best value and the least risk.:thumbup:

herc - 2-6-2012 at 09:14 AM

i second that. depower is safer. but a frenzy is not a very low wind kite. i had more fun snowkiting with my PL twister 7.7 ( on 30 meter lines) than another guy with his ozone frenzy. it was very low wind at the groundlevel. the twister is so lightweight, that i could launch it and get it through the wind gradient up to better winds in 10-15 meter height.
the poor frenzy guy with his more heavy depower foil could not get it from the ground..

so a reactor in 8.6 sqm would be perfect imho. and if the wind speed increases, you can try to fly it on shorter lines, for example 7 meters to reduce the power. short lines reduce the travel through the wind-window and thus reduce the explosive "powering up" if you move (or a gust accelerates) your kite through the window.

at minute 7 in this video, you can see the guy with the frenzy - not moving, just struggeling with his depower foil in those low wind conditions. i even helped him once to relaunch it - but it was just not enough wind for the frenzy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDJUTojbjUE

these were magic days.. the whole spot for myself.. i can imagine that with a 8.6 sqm pl reactor i would have had even more nice snowkite cruising..

kitemaker4 - 2-6-2012 at 09:25 AM

Nasa wings are great for gusty inland winds. That is why I fly them but, they are not good for jumping. They have tones of side pull and the price is a lot lower then foils. I can make any size kite.

Susan (npw goddess)

thanson2001ok - 2-6-2012 at 09:37 AM

I agree, Frenzy is not the ultra low wind option. I bought a 13m Frenzy for 5 - 8 mph. Needless to say, this kite is now gone.

jcisbig - 3-6-2012 at 02:21 PM

Ok, so what I'm hearing is that a Montana or Frenzy will be too heavy of a kite to fly well in sub-10 mph inland winds. If I want to do depower in these winds, I need to look into a Flysurfer to get the best depower experience in sub-10mph winds.

Based on this, strictly from a cost standpoint, it seems like going with a fixed bridle foil might be the way to go. In this case, what kites should I be looking at? I already have a Twister II 5.6m, so a 7.7m Twister might be a good second kite since it's what I'm used to. Here are the kites I'd be considering so far:

- Twister 7.7
- Reactor 8.6
- Blade 8.5
- New PL Voltage?

Any other ideas?

herc - 3-6-2012 at 02:47 PM

zebra slope 12.5 works too, even in the lightes winds. it is really lightweight build. see

http://www.powerkiteforum.com/viewthread.php?tid=21124

a tiwster 7.7 has more raw power at the very low end, but the 12.5 sqm slope really gives you a smoother ride because of the depower - so you can push away gusts. but its a bit more expensive - around 450 euro...

i would suggest either a slope 12.5 or the reactor 8.6.

dunno about the PL volt - looks like a reactor regarding aspect ratio and number of cells, but with a higher AoA hence more lift than the reactor.. might be a handful in gusty conditions - but thats just guessing.

PHREERIDER - 4-6-2012 at 06:52 AM

you have a P15? in 10 -12 mph not to shabby. hard to get a feel for the air your flying ...
the absolute mover is a big PL reactor II. that will get you going before the rest .

VII 16m maybe ...

also maybe look at board things... tire size, for better float FLxBZ haize tires certainly smooth things out for earlier/easier roll out.

cheezycheese - 4-6-2012 at 07:21 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by jcisbig

I don't have any experience with Gin, what's the general impression of these kites?


Gin you say....


jcisbig - 4-6-2012 at 09:33 AM

Regarding a Reactor II 8.6, what winds do you think that would get one moving in? Also, once moving, will apparent wind kick in pretty well with a kite that size for some decent cruising?

Right now, I ride an mbs core 95 with the stock 8" tires. I couldn't any info the the FLxBZ tires metioned above, any links or other suggestions? As a reminder, I board on regularly mowed, flat, lush grass.

Another question, kinda off topic (but hey, it's my thread!): I mostly fly kites on handles at this point, and I'm having trouble finding a good strop to use with my dakine waist harness. Any product suggestions? Any homemade ideas? Thanks.

crazymanme2 - 4-6-2012 at 10:17 AM

I made my strop out of amsteel.Braided the loops in than stitched to lock the loops in.Use a regular piece of rope to figure out your length.

PHREERIDER - 4-6-2012 at 11:41 AM

http://vimeo.com/35106680

short video with direct comparison with 8" on GI flight and Haize "9

vids focus is not the tires but its demos comparison of track width mod that i use since i have been on FlxBz . axle and bearings on HAIZE and GI/MBS with 12mm axles all same may slightly narrow stop to nut so just a little deeper on the axle threads

BeamerBob - 4-6-2012 at 11:53 AM

Angus and I had a day that the 8.6 just wasn't enough and me made tracks with the 2 best kites we had for those winds. 18m Phantom and 10.8 Reactor II. I think the 8.6 needs 5-6 mph. The 10.8 can roll you with 3 mph less.

For strops, I just cut mine to length with a stopper knot at the end. Then larkshead the line onto the leader on your handle. Makes a tidy connection with max use of the strop length. I use amsteel always. They stopped wearing when I started using a pulley instead of hooking directly in to my harness hook.


Strop 2 by BMuse1,

jcisbig - 4-6-2012 at 12:30 PM

BeamerBob, thanks for your input. What would you say the wind range is for the Reactor 8.6? 5-6mph up to about what for a 220lb guy? What about the upper end of the 10.8? Also, are your low end guesses for steady beach winds or inland winds? My inland winds on the low days usually range from about 4mph to 12mph up and down all the time.

What's the best/cheapest/easiest source for the amsteel strops? What's the best method for determining how long a strop should be? I'll be landboarding with a waist harness if that makes a difference...

Also, the handles that I have for my PL Twister II 5.6 have loops instead of pig tails to attach a strop to. What's the best way to attach a strop to loops?

BeamerBob - 4-6-2012 at 01:22 PM

The 8.6 can go up to about 12-13 IIRC and the 10.8 is getting lifty and sliding you with much more than 9 mph. Always size your kite for the highest wind you will get in your session. I just recently ordered several sizes of amsteel from West Marine, but also got some from another location I can't remember because WM didn't have that size.

Strop length shouldn't be longer than you can reach both handles in any turning situation. It doesn't need to be any longer than you need to be able to control the kite. I set my PB speed with a strop that wasn't any longer than 14-16" total. That kite can be steered using only the brakes though. Cut some cheap rope longer than you need and attach it and work your handles as if you are flying. Keep shortening the strop till you find a length you can reach the handles in a full push/pull turn. Make your real strop that length and go fly to try it out. You might be able to shorten the strop further with additional shorter stopper knots till you find the length you like best.

jcisbig - 4-6-2012 at 01:48 PM

The 8.6 sounds to be about the right size for me then, thanks for the info! What thickness of amsteel is best? I see they have lots of different sizes!

BeamerBob - 4-6-2012 at 01:55 PM

I like 1/4". It is big enough for some wearability and won't cut into your wheel if you use one. I've used heavier but the knots start to get big and there isn't really a benefit.

Bladerunner - 5-6-2012 at 06:40 AM

That Gin Eskimo at only $475 is the answer ! If I hadn't promised myself I wouldn't buy more kites I would be all over that one !

Jaymz - 5-6-2012 at 07:39 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by cheezycheese
Quote:
Originally posted by jcisbig

I don't have any experience with Gin, what's the general impression of these kites?


Gin you say....





LOL, forgot about that video Cheezy. Doing the "garbage can" shuffle @ 1:40 in that one.

First time flying the Gin Eskimo 14m in 8-12mph @ the beach 2 years ago. Biggest kite I'd flown then and pleasantly surprised with the power to jump and pull to scud in those winds.
The Eskimo is no match for a Speed3 15m in low wind, but for GIN quality and the price, it's a great 7-14mph kite for buggy, LB, or skis.

I have two Eskimo 14's and one is posted for sale here :thumbup:

http://www.powerkiteforum.com/viewthread.php?tid=22476

Scudley - 19-6-2012 at 06:42 AM

If you are still looking for a kite, you might want to cross the border and come fly with us at Garry Point. Pretty good assortment of kites can be found most weekends, I think most of us would let you have a test flight.
S

herc - 7-3-2013 at 06:25 AM

just to share the probably "lowest wind" session that ever happened on earth ;-)

http://youtu.be/jhvLWPYH9vI



"Wind" was max 5 knots , average around 2.5 knots. This colorful old ebay-cheapy nasathingy here has 10 sqm and flies like sh*t, but its good enough for some early-spring-first-sun-no-wind chill out skating on a parking level.

kitemaker4 - 7-3-2013 at 08:01 AM

Nasa wings rule.

Susan (npw goddess)

AnnieO - 7-3-2013 at 09:05 AM

I have an Reactor 8.3. I need 6mph to get going but I'm nearly 100lbs lighter than you are. My dilemma is exactly the same as yours other than the fact I weigh less. I'm inland in conditions from very low winds to gusty. I like my Reactor but for me it has a limited range because of my weight as the winds increase it can get scary with gusts. I've considered the big arcs but even so not great inland low wind kites. I really agree that the Nasa/NPW's are worth a look. Lots of pull, great in low winds, but not particularly lifty though. My two best options I felt were the Born Nasa Star, or a depower foil (snowkite). I just picked up a beautiful Flexifoil Sabre 2 in 9.5M from Cheddarhead for a great price. I wish I could report how it works for me but I have not had proper conditions to try it out yet. Bottom line though is that I wanted a depower for the extra safety in dealing with gusty inland conditions, yet needed a kite with power that could get me going on the low end. If I had wanted to spend a more I would have hands down been all over a Yeti in the size I would need. I felt taking a chance on a depower foil would be a good risk to take in order to solve the challenges of my conditions. I wish I could provide a full report, I'm itching to find out myself. I suspect my choice will work out nicely, but if it doesn't I know this kite can easily find a new home so I'm not second guessing my decision in the least.