Power Kite Forum

Aftermarket Charger pricing

Seanny - 31-10-2011 at 03:20 PM

I've always wanted a Charger or two or three, but they've always been too expensive… along with every kite that was made within the last four years. Now that Peter Lynn will be releasing a new line of depowers, is it predictable that people will be letting go of their Charger quivers for say, PII kites? Could I expect to be able to find 12/15m Chargers in good condition relatively cheaply? My dream set of Chargers would be 8/12/15, but it's always been just a dream. There's a lot of dreaming I do with this sport.. :rolleyes: Oh, and just in case you're wondering why I said 15 and not 19, it's because I'm way too light for a 19 and would probably get more use out of a 15m as my low wind engine.

Cheers :)

Feyd - 31-10-2011 at 04:23 PM

That's a fair question but not one to answer easily.

Logic would dictate that when the new kites are introduced that a few people will dump thier Chargers in favor of the new flavor.

BUT, Arcs have a very strange and fluxuating market. For one thing these last few years they have been woefully undervalued here in the states. The Chargers included. I've seen them sold pretty darn cheap for what they are. I don't see the prices on used Chargers comming down much further even if there is a glut in the used market.

Not that people don't want to sell cheap, but because they can't afford to give the kites away for any less than they are at this point.

Bear in mind, unless someone is getting a bro deal the new kites are going to cost some $$$ and they'll want to turn as much of the old kite cash into the new kite as they can. Another reason for the Chargers remain stable dollar wise.

So unless it's some retiree with extra $$$ to buy new kites and he's just dumping them to get rid of them, someone with an inside deal, a trustfund brat, or a completely clapped out and burned up wing I don't see much room for movement below the prices that were seeing for used now.

For example, I have a brand new 10m Charger in the for sale section @ $600. That's less than MSRP for a 6m and there are no takers. I may lower my price at some point inthe distant future but not anytime soon.

Why?

Because A) I'm not interested in competing with legitimate dealers of the brand. It doesn't do anyone any good to have me sniping sales from the brick and mortar dealers who have to pay for liabilty insurance, taxes etc... New kites especially. It's one thing for me to sell of my quiver of used kites but to sell a new kite is a slap in the face to the dealers. It doesn't make the dealer want to support the brand, and it cheapens the brand's image and end value.

B) It's worth at least what I'm asking for it. Even if a newer model comes out it's worth my asking price. I'm hoping my price (as it is) still gives the dealers some ability to compete.

When or if she becomes a discontinued model then I will price more agressively probably.

Arcs seem to hold thier value more overseas. I'm not sure why. We seem to want the performance and quality but aren't willing (or are unable) to pay for it.

People will be dumping thier Chargers eventually. I'll be selling mine and I'll be selling them at a good price and in excellent condition (Snowkiting is pretty gentle to the kites).

I don't know if that answers your question or not. The best thing I can can recommend is you just hang tight and wait for the trickle down. Buy a 3rd or 4th hand Charger in a year or so. There will still be some out there that will be well taken care of. You may even find a new one at that point for short $$.

macboy - 31-10-2011 at 06:04 PM

Personal experience - Was expecting a load of Speed 2's and Psycho 3's to hit the market at reduced rates when their successors came out and things didn't really change all that much at all. In fact not many people jumped ship on the older models......

See it a lot in the inflato world too....guys buy a whole quiver, ride them then sell off right at the end of the season for near new pricing so they can get a new set the next year. Pretty good plan actually if you hanker to ride new all the time and can hack a bit of a loss. Buy a quiver for $4000, ride them, sell them for 25-30 % less and you've only paid about $1,000 to ride all year on new gear. Repeat next season.

From a buyer's perspective though 25-30% "off" is only marginally attractive if you're about to drop

kitedelight - 31-10-2011 at 08:55 PM

ya, i wouldn't keep your hopes up for that Seanny. Charger is a solid product and there is no reason it should depreciate any faster than any other kite out there.

if you are looking for a bit more performance to play around with in the meantime, maybe pick up something like a 2009 LEI...won't break the bank. Then save up for a charger, sell the LEI when you are ready and go for it. I picked up a really old 9m LEI, and it is surprising me how much fun it is with the landboard, and very versitile for wind range.

Seanny - 31-10-2011 at 09:09 PM

ARCs are practically the only thing I can fly given my conditions :( LEIs and FSers are out of the question. I didn't think Chargers would plummet in value and bottom out as a whole, but maybe experience a noticeable decline in resale value, albeit for a short period of time; or perhaps there would be people who just want to get rid of their Charger quiver ASAP so they can buy a quiver of new kites, similar to the inflato people :P I guess I'll just watch and wait.

Oh, and $600 seems very low. I need to save up a bit more before making any big purchases, though. And I'm not really after a 10m.. I get the feeling that that size would be better suited to water?

Oh oh, I forgot to mention. You're right about the differences in the way Americans value kites versus the rest of the world. Of course there are noticeable exceptions… I've observed that we tend to overvalue kites like the Phantom and Synergy for their qualities particular to the style of buggying here. The Phanny has a cult status in the USA that, from what I gather, is completely unlike the way the kite is valued in the UK.

Feyd - 1-11-2011 at 03:49 AM

Unfortunately there are very few people out there with a Charger quiver. It seems most people who ride Arcs have a schmattering of Chargers, Syns, Venoms, Phanny etc. Different wings for different uses.

$600 is a good price for the 10m but only for someone who wants a 10m. As you recall most of the riders in this forum have deemed the 10m as "too fast" or "too twitchy" so she's kinda of an outcast for most. I personally love it but I don't need 2. (BTW I love my 8m as well). I don't know if it is any less or better suited for water. The wind would have to be nukin but I bet it would be a riot. My wife uses it on the days when I'm on the 12m and I use it on days when she's on the 8m. It's rare that it's so windy that I NEED the 8m.

You're right, people really put the Phantom 1 on a pedestal and the Synergies as well. Both kites are more for the cruiser crowd and exhibit less aggressive traits than the Charger. When the Charger was released people were dumping thier Syns and the price for used Syns nose dived. Now I think there is a lot of seller's remorse and the price on Syns actually came up again slightly over the lasst few seasons. Then suddenly you couldn't find them used.

It will be interesting to see what happens when the new kites are finally released. I think you will find a few people dumping Chargers but also people dumping Phantom 1's and maybe a few Syns. When it happens I think you'll be able to get some good prices on some good kites.

The Charger is a sick kite. But don't lock yourself into a quiver of one design if it means going without. Get a Charger 15 if you have to pic one Charger. Then round out the quiver with Syns or something like that. You won't be dissapointed, you can save up a little and sell off the Syns to buy more Chargers later. THEY'RE ALL GREAT KITES!!!!:wee:

Seanny - 1-11-2011 at 08:02 PM

I kind of like this discussion. :) The reason why I say the 10m sounds suited to water, is because it's somewhat large for how fast it is? I've never flown one, but I'd guess it to be only marginally slower than an 8m? So you'd get a better bottom end with it on water, but have it produce loads of power. And I'm not by any means locked on Chargers, but it seems to me like they've lived up to the hype and I could do really well with one. Also, instead of the 15 as a go-to kite I think I'd get more use out of a 12 and save the 15 as my light wind sail. I'm only 125 lbs, you know.

I've never really gotten an ARC to auto-zenith before… maybe that's just a testament to how sucky the wind is here. Letting go of the bar is just down right scary in these conditions.

Kamikuza - 1-11-2011 at 08:36 PM

Yeah but you sink on water :lol: arcs work good with high board speed ... a sinky twin tip in light wind (for the kite) is just a hassle :( which is why my arcs only get used in mega-wind on the water ...
'course ... I'm fatter than you :D

Seanny - 1-11-2011 at 08:39 PM

But that's why you don't use the 10m in light wind :D I mean it's comparable to what you'd use an 8m for on land, except it's a little bit bigger to compensate for the.. well the water.

Kamikuza - 1-11-2011 at 11:33 PM

I've never found an occasion to use the 12m on water, let alone a 10 ;) the 19m Chargers starts working for me around 20 knots - parS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-n'riding on my small board. No matter how hard you work it in lighter wind, you (ok I) can't keep up the board speed on my TTs to keep moving easily ... there are better more fun kites for those winds.

On the land ... different matter. I launched and flew the Ch19 is ~4 knots and was scudding on the power stroke.

Feyd - 2-11-2011 at 04:00 AM

I'm a little disturbed by the lack of Auto Zenith on Sean's kites.

There is no doubt in my mind that the wind here is as dirty as it gets and even here we get them to Auto Zenith. Unless the wind is really violently twitchy, which we get about 40% of the time, the Arc will stay at the zenith.

When I static flew the 6m P2 the other day the winds were light (kite falls out of the sky) but gusty (kite lifts or dragged me) with variable direction SW-NE. I was flying in a field that is small and notorious for difficult flying because of all the rotors it gets from treeline. We usually static fly there to test a kite. Vid of the 6m P2 from the other day below....

http://youtu.be/AqvD1rDQnk0

But even there I still got Auto Zenith. Venoms have great AZ. On the ice I can put the Venom on edge in the power zone and take my hands of to tuck. It's not F-Arc AZ but it's close. So I'm wondering if there is something funky going on with your set up. If You have more than one ARC and NONE of them AZ then that leads me to believe its the bar/lines or the pilot.

kitedelight - 2-11-2011 at 09:11 AM

'Get a Charger 15 if you have to pic one Charger. Then round out the quiver with Syns or something like that."

ya, as well, with the broad wind range of arcs, not sure if you would really need more than 2 main units anyway. And, if you can only start with one charger...agreed go bigger. I tested the 12, it was great fun, but not sure I would want a sub-12 charger myself. I do want to pick up a 12 one day though.

skelman - 2-11-2011 at 09:39 AM

What's in the new line of Peter Lynn depower kites coming out? Does anyone know when or what different kites will be included?

PHREERIDER - 2-11-2011 at 09:44 AM

if i remember correctly SEANNY's arc has top skin tuck. which probably should be taken out IMHO. some kind partial mod i suppose.

the CH12 i had was great in 30 on the water, super quick really nice unit but in 20 it just wouldn't do it.

CH15 definitely choice. at 125# it'll be a load for sure.

put the V13 back to stock! i believe it'll surprise you

i'm assuming you still have it BTW

Seanny - 2-11-2011 at 12:13 PM

The AZ on the Venom is a bit weird due to the tucks... it will be stable and fly for a good amount of time hands-free, but it slowly drifts down and to the left, then just hovers there. I can only get auto zenith in a very low amount of wind, because that's really the only time it's smooth enough to allow for it. I can't even get Adam's 16m Scorpion to AZ in wind that's strong enough to ride... the gusts/lulls/shifts are so strong that letting go of the bar with that thing is just terrifying.

The wind here on average goes between 4 knots and 28 or more in the blink of an eye. And it's turbulent and shifts directions a lot. It's not that there's interference from anything on the ground causing it to do that, it's due to my geographical location I suppose. Let go of the bar on the Scorpion, and it hops around a bit, then sinks, then gets slammed with wind and shoots back up, lifting me 7 feet off the ground. Not fun.

...The 16m Scorpion has a ridiculous amount of lift. I have to work up the nerve to get out and fly it with these conditions. I pray that one day I can experience clean wind...

Feyd - 2-11-2011 at 02:32 PM

I dunno, still sounds kinda funky. we get the same kind of winds here and none of out ites exhibit any of the sketchiness you've described. I've had kites do that, but only because I had something in the set up wrong. (at least with the Arcs)

I loved my 16m Scorp but even here when I've been caught with my pants down I never had it want to randomly lift me much in a gust at AZ. She is lifty but she has really smooth, controlable lift. At least all mine did. Maybe if you're letting her sink into the center of the window and then a gust hits and she basically hot launches then I can see it.

Don't let her sink!

Don't know what to do with a modded funky Venom. Remove the mods? It sucks because it sounds like you have a couple of really choice rides but you aren't getting the full Arc treatment. Skip school for a couple days this winter and come up this way. Based on your description you'll be fine in our winds. (smooth wind is overated. Punchy makes you a better rider.):tumble:

Seanny - 2-11-2011 at 06:24 PM

It can't be something wrong with the setup… how hard could it be? I do it the same way every time. Although my Scorp is set for max lift, don't know about yours. It works great when it works :D but it's a damn scary kite, especially if you're a light rider.

The Funky Venom is a loooot of fun. I can take that thing out in anything, and it's fairly quicker than a normal 13m Venom.

All the kites sink into the power zone when the wind dies, then get punched and are forced into the zenith. Even for ARCs they don't seem to like it here. I think the wind might be blowing at different speeds at different heights off the ground. Smooth wind might be overrated, but it'd be nice to actually see an improvement every once in a while :) trying to ride in this crap every time makes learning something that normally takes a full day of practice to get the hang of weeks or months to get the hang of. My motivation has dropped a little, I'm afraid to say, but I think moving out to Lubbock for college will be a good thing.

flyjump - 2-11-2011 at 08:07 PM

That scorpion is a great wing. Sean you need one session of good wind and youll feel like a king. Drive up here here for a few days and youll be on the right track in no time

krumly - 3-11-2011 at 07:42 AM

Seanny -

Peter Lynn once mentioned on the SLARC forum that sometimes older Arcs would tend to hang to one side rather than auto zenith overhead. Could have been due to slight sewing innaccuracies (foil sections not precisely symmetrical) or to uneven stretching of the canopy. A quick and dirty solution was to tie a temporary line from the trailing edge to the the rib seam near the leading edge - one neare ach wingtip - and tweak the amount of reflex in the section. Play with it to see if you can get the kite to zenith overhead. If your kite was heavily modded, a few millimeters offset either side in sewing could throw it off.

krumly

SLARC tip tuning

krumly - 3-11-2011 at 08:01 AM

Here's a pic of the topside tip tuning line on a Peter Lynn single line arc (SLARC). Note this is a one-off with the reinforcing straps sewn into the top. But you could try something similar.

krumly

F+Arc+16+Slarc+tip+tuning+e.jpg - 22kB

BeamerBob - 3-11-2011 at 08:05 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Seanny
Smooth wind might be overrated, but it'd be nice to actually see an improvement every once in a while :) trying to ride in this crap every time makes learning something that normally takes a full day of practice to get the hang of weeks or months to get the hang of. My motivation has dropped a little, I'm afraid to say, but I think moving out to Lubbock for college will be a good thing.


Make no mistake! The difference between the worst wind and perfectly smooth wind is immeasurable. The confidence you have in crap winds is only that you hope to survive and not get hurt. With smooth winds you rarely even think about getting yarded or lofted. The pull is consistent and the kite rarely does anything you don't specifically tell it to do. Your first flight in smooth strong winds will spoil you for forever.

I've flown my old 15 Syn on the beach with offshore winds before when the actual wind speeds shouldn't have been a problem but with the shifty punchy nature of the wind, even the predictable Synergy was all over the place and lofting me off the sand. Wind quality really makes a difference.

Seanny - 3-11-2011 at 01:21 PM

Ahh, thank you so much Krumly! If I can find some smooth wind between Lubbock and Corpus Christi, one of the things I'll do is some trials with the Venom to see exactly how it behaves. From what I've seen, it's actually quite interesting… the kite has a mind of it's own, but it doesn't really seem to hurt anything.

The words of encouragement help a lot. Sounds like I'll have to kick my own a$$ and see what I'm made of once again… last season didn't end so well, with no decent sessions, my landboard tires all popped and my rims pretty much destroyed. Now that it's fixed, I can start over fresh. But definitely not right now… with this cold front, the wind every riders worst nightmare :P

flyjump - 3-11-2011 at 05:51 PM

get on that scorpion seanny, you'll love that kite in 15mph winds with your weight. youlll have smooth rides with floaty airs...........just gotta find some clean wind.